Director/Actor Samuel Lee Fudge on Marcus Garvey & Pan-Africanism

The Learning Curve Samuel Lee Fudge

Alisha: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Learning Curve podcast. I’m your co-host, Alicia Thomas Searcy, and I am happy to be joined by a guest co-host this week. Welcome back Walter Blanks.

Walter: It’s so good to be with you. Thank you so much for having me, Alicia.

Alisha: We’re excited to have you remind folks who you are and the work that you’re doing these days.

Walter: Yes, so I am a national spokesperson for the American Federation for Children uh, school Choice Beneficiary from Ohio. And really just spreading all the great things about education, education reform, and doing everything that I can to ensure that parents are in the driver’s seat and part of the conversation when it comes to educating their children across the country.

As someone who’s, who’s benefited from various policies.

Alisha: Absolutely. And I love that you’re, you get to do that work. There’s I think no better messenger than folks who have benefited from school choice and understand the impact that it’s made on our lives. So keep up the good work.

Walter: Thank you so much.

Alisha: You are welcome. So I’m [00:01:00] excited to have you excited about our guest today, but before we jump into that, we’ve gotta do our stories of the week. And since you are the guest co-host, I’m gonna ask you to go first with your story. what are you reading these days?

Walter: Yeah, also, I’m reading a lot, but this one in particular from the 74, the title of the article is in Indiana, a fight over splitting money between districts and charter schools.

And it was super interesting. Of course, Indiana is a little bit of a neighbor where I live now, and of course in Ohio, but. In Indianapolis, there are more than 60% of the public school students attend charter schools, which I think is absolutely wild about that, that statistic that families are using alternative forms of education for their children.

But the issue is the charter schools in Indianapolis get about $8,000 less than what their public school counterparts are getting. And so there’ve been a lot of conversations. There were three bills. One of them actually [00:02:00] looked to eliminate the school district in Indianapolis. But also there’s been some, some questions about allocating some of those public school dollars to charters to allow for busing, for more resources and, and all of those things.

And so there’s a lot in the legislature in Indiana right now about, you know, how they are educating children or, or what’s going on. But 60%, I mean, families want something else, whatever that may mean or whatever that may look like. And so. The legislature has been tasked with, you know, figuring out, okay, how do we make this work?

How do we ensure that, you know, every single school has what it needs to function. But more importantly in the angle that I take is what’s being done to ensure that that kids are reading on grade level, writing, on grade level, doing math on grade level whether that’s the public school or another form of, of education.

And so, a lot of great things going on in Indiana. A lot of conversations, probably a lot of hard conversations as well. Mm-hmm. But I’m really hopeful to see what they’re able to come up with within the next year or [00:03:00] so to, to ensure that charter schools are getting the funding that they need.

Public schools are getting the funding that they need, but ultimately children are thriving and learning in their current education that their parents picked for them.

Alisha: Mic drop. Well, there’s nothing else to add to that I before. And you know, the fact that you brought up that charter schools are getting funded less than traditional public it’s just crazy.

It’s, it’s insane that in this day and age, what, 30 years now, that charter schools have been in place around the country and we’re still talking about inequities. And so what that means for so many schools, and I say this as a former charter network leader, like there are a lot of things that schools aren’t able to do.

These are public schools, but yet they’re not getting the funding. And we know that, you know, just a dollar amount, you know, is not the answer to all problems. But we do believe if you go to a public school that you ought to have equitable funding,

right? So

Alisha: there’s so much work to do, but I [00:04:00] agree with you wholeheartedly when you have parents who want options.

I think most parents do. You gotta number one, have them available. You gotta have the, the funding available for them. And we need to make sure that we’re doing right by kids. So thank you for that article. Of course. So I have one that I think you’d be interested in as well. It’s in title Judge Blocks, department of Education, federal Personnel Office from sharing data with Doge.

And so Walt, you have probably listened to this podcast a few times and you know, that we’re not necessarily political. We try to stay, you know, focused on education and we talk a lot to educators. And so I don’t wanna make this a political conversation, but I do think that we have to acknowledge what’s happening in the country under this current administration and specifically with the Department of Education and its employees.

Right. People are being [00:05:00] fired. And there’s very little compassion connected to that on a daily basis. People are afraid. And then even those who are able to keep their jobs, their information has being, is being shared. And so we’ve seen a lot of these executive orders and the actions of Doge being brought up in the court system in terms of lawsuits being filed.

And so here’s yet another one that was a lawsuit filed by a number of unions to try to protect the personal information from Doge, which we, I think can all agree is not actually a real federal department, but something that’s just been created. and so the claim, according to this lawsuit, you know, the.

Defendants or the government, quote unquote is supposed to be identifying waste, fraud, and abuse. And so the judge in this particular cases has asked the question how having access to people’s personal information assists with that effort. And so what I think people should know and why this is so [00:06:00] important that in this particular case, the judge did block this action, whereas there have been some other cases where a different judge did not, that these employees will now be protected.

if folks are not aware, there’s actually a DEI watch list that has been created where they’ve published the photos, the names, public information like addresses. As in home addresses of a number of workers from health agencies like the CDC and other places and they’ve been described as targets.

And just a personal experience I have a family friend who worked for the FBI, his wife worked for the CDC. She’s an African American woman and has, been identified as one of these targets. And so because she’s on this list some of these folks have shown up to her house saying that she delivered pizza when she denied kind of, you know, one of their tactics that they use.

And so I’m so glad that this particular judge blocked this decision because as people are ending [00:07:00] up on these target lists and primarily these lists are predominantly African American people, it’s awful to think about the public safety here, to think about how they’re being put in danger, not because of something that they’ve done wrong, but because they’ve been identified as a target.

And so my question here is, are they wanting to get this personal information because they want these target lists to grow? what else could they be using this information for? It’s certainly not gonna help them as the judge has identified you know, figure out where fraud and abuse is.

So what are your thoughts here?

Walter: Yeah. And, you know, since January everything has been moving super, super quickly under this administration. Not just in education, but across the board and, and, and all of these things. And it’s like, I mean, at some point you have to just like take a breather, right?

Just like breathe and like evaluate, you know, where you are. And it’s hard, right? It’s hard to, to make some of these like, massive changes at the expense of like people’s [00:08:00] privacy and, and kind of like you were saying, it’s like, well, if you want to clear out and clean up waste, fraud and abuse I believe right, that there’s a way to do that without having access to people’s personal information.

Right. And especially for people who are in, you know, communities of color and minority communities, like I. That’s something that, that we, and, and all people in general take very, very seriously. But when you’re targeting, you know, a specific group of people over something that is extremely controversial and, and does have real life impacts on people, like, you just can’t make sweeping decisions and just say like, this is what we’re gonna do and expect it to all fall in place perfectly for every single person.

And so I think, I think like you said, at the expense of like not diving into like the political weeds of this and the landscape, it’s just like. Everything has to be analyzed, overanalyzed, and then analyzed again, right? Because when you have that kind of power, there are real life implications. Maybe not for you, but for people that [00:09:00] work in various agencies.

And so, right, you have to be extremely cautious and move a little bit slower than you normally would like to because there are real life stories and impacts that will, benefit positively or negatively. From, from this, there are unintended consequences all the time in politics and just life in general.

And so, we definitely need to keep an eye on this and, and continue to make sure that, that our voices and our perspective is heard. Because if you, if you’re not eating this up every day, like we probably do, right? You’re liable to miss it. And, and this is definitely something that we need all hands on deck for to combat against.

Alisha: Yes, absolutely. And I think you’re right that a lot of us consume this because this is what we do every day. But I think those who may not want to, you know, dig into this, they will somehow be affected because you may know someone who’s a federal employee, or in the case of these funds that have been frozen, right?

You may know someone who’s a childcare worker and maybe they didn’t get paid because the federal funds were [00:10:00] frozen. So I think in some form or fashion, we are all going to be impacted by this. and you’re exactly right. We’ve gotta pay attention and just ask people to just slow down a little bit.

Let’s, do an assessment. If you’ve ever led anything, if you had to take over an organization or you know, anything, I think the first thing you do is. Stop. You do an assessment, you get to know people, you get to know the operations so that you can make sound decisions. But I’m not sure you can really make sound decisions if you’re only, you know, you’ve been in the job two or three days and you’re already, you know, making these sweeping changes.

In this case, now it’s been a little over a month, but the, the actions are still moving very rapidly and it’s dizzying in a lot of

ways.

Walter: Yeah, yeah. And, and my thing too is like, I’m always looking down the line, right? Like, how does certain actions today set precedent for tomorrow? And so today it’s this, right?

But then my question is, well, [00:11:00] what if something else, they wanna do something else down the line? And they’ve already established that precedent where they can do it, right? It’s like who’s there to stand in the gap? Who’s there to, to make sure that everything is moving and operating as it should, and that we’re just not divulging into something that could be more worse.

Down the line, not just with this current administration, but any administration down the line. And so I think especially when you’re talking about people’s private and sensitive information, we should be guarding that as fiercely as we possibly can.

Alisha: Yes, yes, yes. Thank you all. I appreciate that. These are really two important articles, so thank you for uh, bringing yours forth and we shall continue the conversation.

I’m excited about our guest of the day. Coming right up, we have actor Samuel Lee Fudge, who’s gonna talk to us about his film on Marcus Garvey. Stay [00:12:00] tuned.

Samuel Lee Fudge is a celebrated actor, writer, director, and producer. Fudge has appeared in several major motion pictures, including Emperor, produced by Reginald Hudlin and Genius, MLKX, produced by Reggie Rock Bythewood. In 2023, he was the first actor to portray Marcus Garvey in a narrative film with Miah, a groundbreaking project.

He also wrote, this film is the first narrative portrayal of Garvey’s life, showcasing fudges dedication to storytelling and representation. He earned his MFA in Performing Arts from the Savannah College of Art and Design, and holds a BA in Film from Pain College in Augusta. Sam Fudge, welcome to the Learning Curve podcast.

Samuel: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys for having me. It’s an honor. Thank you.

Alisha: You’re welcome. So let’s jump in with our first question. As we talked about in your bio, you are quite an accomplished actor, director, and writer whose film is the first cinematic [00:13:00] portrayal of a 20th century political activist in Pan-African leader Marcus Messiah Garvey.

Can you talk to us about your own background, your education, and how you decided to Turn the story of Marcus Garvey into this 2023 film, Messiah?

Samuel: growing up, I’d say I, I, I like to give credit to God, but I was blessed with a unique understanding of I’d say the social climate in which was in my community gang violence, gun violence poverty different things, you know, that, polluted my community. And I, I was aware of these things not just that they exist, but I knew that these things were wrong. And so outta my curiosity I wanted to dig deeper learning what could be a solution to these things that I saw wrong around me. My mother and I I was raised by a single mother, we encountered many of experiences that were humbling.

You know, we had to find different places to live. we struggled for a great period of my childhood. was [00:14:00] forced to be not just a man a man, boy, I’d say. But I, I was forced to come up with solutions you know, sometimes to resolve whatever conflicts that I, that came, you know, within the household and just outside.

And more importantly, I had to be mature and wise to be there for my mom. just all these things, it, it just. I say it sparked the curiosity to wanna resolve the things around me that were wrong and also in the world that I saw wrong. I was fortunate enough to have like you, Alicia, and other influences in my life who, influenced black history on me black cultivation, I’d say on me seeing you, go to Spelman A-H-B-T-U and graduate summa cu laude and wear this kinte cloth something, a material that I had never seen in my life, but I knew it represented African pride. I’ve seeing you walk across that stage and be congratulated by black faces, you know, and celebrated by black faces, and you graduating and then going off to becoming a at 23, [00:15:00] you know, becoming a Georgia State representative and making history at that time.

These things uh, cultivated me and enlightened me. I wanted to dig deeper. I wanted to dive, and I wanted to see what was the possibilities for me and seeking a leadership role for my people. Fast forward, you know, I graduated from high school. I went on to A-H-B-C-U myself, which is paying college, and there my life had changed.

I went to paying college and I took classes in media studies. My, my degree was in film production. I say the biggest jewel in diamond about being at Payne College and taking up these studies was the education was pro-black centered Afro education to the core.

There I was able to learn about my responsibility as a, black artist in society. I was able to learn about history, black filmmaking. I learned about Oscar Michel and, Robert Townsend and all these great black prolific filmmakers who created work through influenced social [00:16:00] change. I, I learned about everything, everything black in regards to media.

I learned the significance of media and how media plays a huge part in the shift of our culture in America. I learned how media can be used as a tool to miseducate. The mass, I learned how media can be used as propaganda to miseducate and mislead and misdirect the mass. And there, you know, it just created it just gave me more power and more sense of responsibility to further want to change things that I knew were wrong, you know?

And so after graduating, I was able to go to SC to obtain my master’s degree. what SCAD did was turn me into a professional through scad I was able to fully craft these new skills that I had learned and learn how to utilize it to the mask and be effective and be powerful within my work.

And once graduating from scad, that’s where the real work came. You know, during that time that Mosa was created, we went through some key losses of African Americans [00:17:00] here in the United States. George Floyd Michael Brown oh my God. Who else? Sonya Massey. Uh

.

Samuel: We had so many deaths at that time Kendrick Johnson. It was so many, and I just wanted to utilize everything that I had learned over the years. I wanted to utilize my cultivation and my my education to finally make an impact into the world. And so, utilizing my voice, you know, I wanted to use Marcus Garvey to make the impact to the world.

How my educational Marcus Garvey came about, was younger on as I started to I give Alicia credit again, it was my aunt, my aunt, her mom, who uh, took initiative to take me to the Martin Luther King Memorial here in Atlanta, Georgia. And from my interest of wanting to learn about Martin Luther King came my interest to one, wanting to learn about Malcolm X.

And from my interest of wanting to learn about Malcolm X came my interest of wanting to learn about Marcus Garvey. Marcus Garvey is the one who stuck out the most to me because of his ideas and his [00:18:00] philosophies. They made the most sense to me. He was speaking to the young ghetto, inner city child who was trying to find a way out.

His words hit I say like a tow truck. They hit, you know, they made sense. He was telling black people who uplift themselves and No, you’re not secondary and no, you are deserving. You are of value. your name does hold weight. Your black skin is prideful. Take pride in that. Carry yourself with honor, esteem and that these things made sense to me.

His words was in comparison to what a father would say to a young boy who was curious and wanted hope, you know? And so, I ran with that, and that was not only just my guy throughout life and. Up until my adulthood his words were something that I wanted to use his power to rejuvenate and to bring hope to other black people.

Alisha: Wow. Thank you, first of all for the very kind things that you said about me. I, I was not expecting that. But I, [00:19:00] I am grateful and I appreciate that. What I love is your passion and the fire that you have. And it comes through so strongly and so powerfully as you responded to those questions.

So thank you for that. want you to talk about. The historical context of Marcus Garvey. Help us to know who this Jamaican born political activist and founder and first president general of the Universal Negro Improvement Association and African Communities League, also known as UNIA. Talk about who he was and give us a brief summary of why he remained such a, an important, historically important figure, I should say.

Samuel: Oh, yeah. Fir first most, there’s, there’s not enough words in the dictionary to describe Marcus Garvey. He was a man of, many hats. in my opinion, well, in everyone’s opinion, he’s a renaissance

man.

Samuel: He did so much. But yes, he was Jamaican born from a [00:20:00] young age in comparison to my story at a young age.

He saw things that were wrong in society. And he had this, burning desire to, want to solve these issues, but also learn more and discover. He got his education. first most, he dug deep into the field of media utilizing publishing and writing to get messages all across his community at the time in Jamaica print pressing.

So he, at a very early age in his early twenties, he learned the significance of the power of word and the power utilizing media. also he had this, burning desire of wanting to be a orator. He, people called him, he people said there’s documents of people stating people who knew him at the time of him wanting to be the first gentleman of the world.

He wanted to be a orator. He wanted to use his words not just through a form of writing, but in the form of, presenting to change lives, to change black people, to change the world. He felt this way in America. After reading the Up from [00:21:00] slavery by Booker t Washington I’d say he grew a connection with Booker t Washington.

he wrote to Booker t Washington while he was still in Jamaica, in the Caribbeans. And Booker t Washington urged him to come to America to see how life was there. by the time he got to America Booker t Washington had passed. And so, after once, after already having funded the UNIA in Jamaica Kingston he came over to the States and founded the UNIA in Harlem.

He went on a tour while he was in the States. I can’t remember exactly how many cities it was, but instantly he, he took a, he traveled around the states preaching this uplifting message to black people. What’s most notable about Marcus Garvey, especially during that time, was he was the first black activist to lead a mass movement to the scale in which he did it.

In uh, we’re talking about black people all over the world not just in the states of America. We’re talking about all over the world, Africa, Asia central America. He was a [00:22:00] self-proclaimed leader of millions all across the world. So in the twenties, we had never seen anyone. do something to that magnitude.

And still today, we haven’t seen anyone do it that large. He was the first in, in the twenties, he used media once again to spread his movement, to push his movement not just with newspapers, journal entries just music. he had the Negro world which was his publication. And there he would feature black poetry, black word, you know, still just pushing that.

No one had seen that during that time other than when the Paul Renaissance was uh, existent. But Marcus Garvey, he was just. this giant only a structure of maybe 5 6, 5, 6 asaki. But he was this giant, he formed many of businesses. people hadn’t seen that at that time as well.

Mm-hmm. And still today, we haven’t seen anything like that. A black man to create so many business. We talking about theme park, we’re talking about once again, media, we’re talking about [00:23:00] doll factories. He, he was the first to create black dolls for black children, so black children can see themselves and be able to play, play with dolls that represented skin tone of themselves.

There was just so much, like I said, I, I can, I can go on for days, but Garvey was just, this huge for, and to say he’s an activist was, is just the little of what all he accomplished. You know.

Alisha: Wow. So you’ve mentioned a couple of times the use of media and how we can inform or misinform which I think is a very powerful tool, and even back then, and he was able to do that.

And so you and your team have developed a screenplay and a script for Messiah. so could you talk to us about your research the primary sources that you used of Marcus Garvey that you looked at or drew from, and how you thought about crafting the film’s overall narrative?

Samuel: Yes. Um, Negro With a Hat is a book about Marcus Garvey.

we also [00:24:00] utilized the philosophies and opinions of Marcus Garvey, who was edited by Amy Jacks Garvey, his wife. we researched and dug into documentaries that we found. YouTube and also other media platforms. the main resource we used was court transcripts from the trial that he was convicted of mail fraud in.

Mm-hmm. Reason being is because the film was based around the trial of, you know, of the male fraud trial. The reason why I specifically wanted to hone in and emphasize that particular part of his life is because that’s in America. We all know that as I’d say his, the end of Marcus Garvey, the downfall of Marcus Garvey, where everything went wrong for Marcus Garvey.

This is, this trial was also used as a tool as well to discredit the movement of Marcus Garvey and the successes and the accomplishment of Marcus Garvey. And so that trial was very, very significant for us. a Lot of people watch the film and they [00:25:00] say, well, you know, wow, he was actually innocent.

I didn’t know he did this, and I thought he was guilty all this time. and the craziest part about it is we didn’t dramatize too much in that court case. We didn’t, you know, fictionally make up anything. Those are actual testimonies and the back and forth between Garvey and the different witnesses, these things are in the transcripts.

this is literally one of those cases where you say, the truth is in the books, the truth is out. You just gotta dig and find it and not be pushed the narrative to believe that this person was guilty of this, and this person is this awful person. that’s why we wanted to emphasize the trial because I wanted to start off.

Where people knew him most from, and then go back and reeducate everyone on what the actual facts were.

Alisha: So, so very important, and I’m glad you made it very clear that in fact, he was not guilty even though he was found guilty in that court case, but it was not true. And that’s important for history’s sake for people to know [00:26:00] that.

I want you to talk about his ideology. Marcus Garvey was known as a black nationalist and Pan-Africanist, and some would consider his ideas controversial and what they call garveyism. So can you talk about his views on racial separatism commitment to the Back to Africa movement and why he thought African Americans needed to migrate to Africa?

Samuel: First let me just backtrack to the, Previous question. Not only was he convicted of this crime that he didn’t do, the only piece of evidence was a empty envelope with no contents inside a empty envelope with the letters UNIA on the back of it. Who Benny Daney claimed that he received and cannot recall what was sent in that letter.

Can’t recall how he got it. Just he was the owner, or he was the recipient of this letter. So Marcus Garvey was found guilty out of all the evidence he was found guilty off of this one piece of evidence of an empty [00:27:00] envelope. So that’s the, truth, and that’s the reality of, that.

Yes. Separatism Garvey believed that black people can only solely prosper amongst our own, under our own care. I owned, resources. He believed in Black hospital. He believed in black education. He believed in black housing. I just told you not too long ago about the Black Dolls, baby dolls, you know, he believed that black people could not depend on another race

Garvey believed that we can only be fully self resilient off our own efforts. he believed that white America would never see Black America as equal. So integrating was a waste of time in those regards. Just so much, you know, um, just going back to the black education, we had the Black Cross Nurses We had the UNIA, we had the African Legion, which uh, was Civil War vet. Garvey got them together and uniformed them and gave them a sense of pride and a sense of direction and vision [00:28:00] to further the movement. So yes, that’s to generalize it for us, by us in today’s terms.

You know, Africa, for the Africans.

Alisha: I, I understand that. So before I turn it over to my guest co-host, I wanna ask one more question. Something that I think is so cool about this process is you writing this and turning this into a film. And I’m guessing that that was probably a very complex and very interesting process for an actor, writer, and filmmaker.

So can you talk about some of the key decisions necessary? Like what are the elements of the story or scenes that you included or decided not to include? Talk about that process , and how you came to this Very, very powerful movie. And I will tell our listeners, you haven’t seen it, I would highly recommend you go and find it on Amazon Prime and watch it.

It’s such a powerful piece.

Samuel: Once again, just. Emphasizing that court trial was [00:29:00] significant and important to push this film and push the narrative. We were very intentional with our creation of this film. we knew that that court trial would be a statement. And it’s ironic, you know, that the pardon, the recent part by Joe Biden happened in correlation of us releasing the film on Amazon Prime.

But we just knew the trial would be essential to this story. And to dig deeper into that or to, to call out important details within the trial, we definitely wanted to depict Mr. James Wormley Jones, who was hired by the BOI, which is the FBI, but the BOI. During that time, we wanted to show him and how he was instrumental in bringing down the UNIA and Marcus Garvey by infiltrating the organization as a member.

And also befriended Marcus Garvey and was able to get, the personal information and information about his business affairs and about the organization, and then turn to use these things too. Bring him down in the [00:30:00] trial. If people don’t know James Wormley Jones was, and who was also recognized as Agent 800 to the BOI at that time, and to the UNIA, he was Jack, he was hired by Hoover to purposefully infiltrate the UNIA.

So we had to shed light on that. We had to shed light on Garvey’s meeting with the clan which too people’s misunderstanding of his meeting with the Ku Klux Klan during that time. Led to him being taken down by the government, but also turned against by black people.

Black people saw that as a huge betrayal at that time, but that was from a standpoint and a misunderstanding. So we wanted to show that in the film and we want show, the true, the true reasoning for his meeting with the Ku Klux plan and his true intention with organizing with the Ku Klux plan.

Garvey said they both had similarities at that time. The Klan didn’t want black Americans in America no more than Garvey wanted blacks in America. So, we wanted to [00:31:00] show that there was so many other things as well. You know, we wanted to show the relationship. between Marcus Garvey and his wife, Amy Jacks at the time.

We wanted to show it from a personal intimate standpoint so people could identify and connect with these two characters as human beings. And in addition to these, these huge political giants, they were human beings, And we wanted to show how the government’s take down on Garvey impacted or could impact the family dynamic that he had with his wife.

We also wanted to show glimpse of his childhood his interactions with his father, who was this stern, serious, disciplined man. And how his, his, lessons with Marcus Garvey at the time were, hard and tough as well. But led to who we know today is Marcus Garvey.

You know, these things were key into his growth as this political giant, but also this leader to black people. This came from when he was a child. It started from when he was a child, and we wanted to show how instrumental his father was in that process.

Alisha: Well, it was done very well. [00:32:00] Lemme turn it over to Walt.

Walter: Yeah. Hey, Sam. Walter, how you.

Samuel: Hey, Walter, how you doing? Doing well, doing well. I’m absolutely loving this conversation. And so I’m hoping that you can, set the stage a little bit here as we’re having this conversation. You briefly talked about Garvey and the mill fraud case. And so, I’d love for you to kind of go a little bit deeper into that.

So it’s like, you know, like following the racist leadership of j Edgar Hoover and the Bureau of Investigation, they charged Garvey with mail fraud in connection with, you know, selling stocks for the Black Star line, which was a, a, a shipping lane designed to, build a bridge between north America and, Africa.

So can you talk to us about that and the us’ us government’s concern and kind of overall thoughts about Garvey?

Yeah, first off, you know, in addition to Benny Dante’s testimony about the envelope that he received [00:33:00] mysteriously from the black Star line in the UNIA there were just so many things that from the get-go was not in favor of Marcus Garvey within the trial.

Everyone knew at that time that Garvey had a huge vendetta or I’d say disagreements with the NAACP at that time. judge Mack, who was the, judge over the trout was a huge affiliate of the naacp. So that was number one. Number two was Garvey’s representation at that time.

His representation was trying to get Garvey to, plead guilty to this charge. I. For a less sentence. in fact, Garvey had to represent himself in that trial. We tried to express that in the film, or show it in the film but that was huge. He represented himself. This was a guy who had no law experience, but a guy who knew he was innocent.

just those two things and other things, you know, we, we know from the get go that the trial wasn’t set up in his favor. And in fact was a, again, a tool used to discredit the movement, but also get, rid of Marcus Garvey in [00:34:00] the movement.

Walter: Great. so kind of looking at what was going on pretrial during the trial, he was ultimately convicted in 1923, And was imprisoned in the United States Penitentiary in Atlanta. For almost two years. And so yeah, it took president Calvin Coolidge to commute a sentence, and then he was deported to Jamaica.

Could you just talk about that experience for Garvey with the trial being incarcerated and then ultimately deported?

Samuel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, man, it was, unjust. And it’s not just from my opinion, the facts are there. The transcripts can be found. we didn’t pay any monies.

We didn’t have to pull any strings to get these transcripts. They were there accessible for us. And through that, you could see the injustices within the trial once he was convicted of the, charge, you know, he was sentenced to, like you said, if I’m not mistaken, he was sentenced to five years and, uh, he was parted for the two and then deported back to [00:35:00] Jamaica.

And he was here in Atlanta at the federal prison. I can’t remember the two gentleman’s names exactly, but at the time of Garvey’s imprisonment, he was in, he was incarcerated with two other gentlemen one of which was a political giant himself, if I’m not mistaken. He was a governor somewhere, and he was in prison for the same charge of male fraud, who he too said was unjust.

not fair. There was also another gentleman, I, I can’t remember his name, I’m sorry but he also was incarcerated with Marcus Garvey too on a male fraud charge. So apparently that this was a trend of getting rid of major influences in the United States at that time, they were using these male fraud charges to get these political giants incarcerated. but once deported back to Jamaica, Garvey didn’t stop the movement before he got back to Jamaica. Let me first say, then got the philosophies and opinions of Marcus Garvey by his wife, Amy Ja Garvey, who edited this publication and put it out to the world.

She was a major, [00:36:00] major, major key factor in pushing Garvey’s movement while he was locked up. But once he got back to Jamaica, the movement didn’t stop. We know he created theme parks over in Jamaica. He created more businesses. He, just continued this idea of black enterprise, And then furthermore, you know, he went on to the UK where he still didn’t stop. But unfortunately that’s where he passed. But the incarceration didn’t stop Garvey it didn’t stop his movement. And, you know, here we are today in 2025, you know, we’re still talking about him, and he’s still, he’s growing.

He’s, he’s growing bigger than what he was then, if, you know, in my opinion.

Walter: Yeah. Thank you for that. So you mentioned Booker t Washington earlier but both Booker t Washington and WEB Du Bois had divergent views on race relations and the paths for racial uplift.

So what was, Garvey’s relationship with these two very prominent black civil rights leaders and [00:37:00] educators?

Samuel: Well, we know Garvey was very fond of Booker t Washington. Like I said Booker t Washington was a huge influence on Garvey’s decision to even come over to the States, you know, and, further the UNIA and Garveyism.

And historians could tell you even before the quarrels between Garvey and the Bois, you know, they were actually I’d say consistent. Once upon a time you know, we know when the UNIA was formed in Kingston, Jamaica WEB Du Bois actually visited Garvey in the UNIA during that time.

It was only once Garvey got over to the States and he grew bigger in his movement. quarrels begun. But these guys were good once upon a time. The biggest thing is WEB Du Bois was big key on equal rights integration. He believed that We should have been equal to white America during that time. it would, it would be through our equality that we could rise in America and of, course, Garvey. You know, was against that. He [00:38:00] was separatist. He was a separatist. He believed in us having our own. We can only solely thrive off of our own.

We needed to create our own, be of our own support, our own. We needed our own. Black economics. Black education. Black everything. Black health, assistance. Like I mentioned, he created the Black Cross Nurses. So, that was the biggest thing. They just, both had this vision of being a resolution or serving as resolve to black problems.

But they both had their own separate ways of handling it. it was because of those different ideas which caused the friction between those two. But I, I say all the time, you know, just imagine what they could have done together. And I also say all the time that the disagreements and across within them two was amped up and, antagonized through a another source, you know, to cause the friction amongst these two gentlemen, these two giants. if you go and research the, the confrontation and words back and forth, these were personal attacks on one another. they had personal attacks through wording amongst one another [00:39:00] opposed to the movements itself.

I think if they could have put those two things aside focused and keyed in on the, bigger mission, we’ll be at a better state. I say right now is black America or our concern.

Walter: Yeah. Yeah. and race relations during that time in Garvey’s time as it is right now are, extremely Complicated and, hard to, figure out. And so can you share with us how you and. The director cast actors for the roles in the film as well as, key decisions on how you were going to portray the overt racism that, that Garvey dealt with in the earliest 20th century.

Samuel: the goal was to be as authentic in the casting as possible. We wanted the actors to represent these real life characters as best as possible. and that was sort of, gift for those historians, you know, who love, you know, that who, who would watch the film and say, oh, that doesn’t look like Marcus Garvey, or, that doesn’t look like Amy Chase

Garvey.

Right. We

Samuel: wanted, [00:40:00] it We also used it as a strategy we wanted people to feel coastal history as possible. You know, we wanted you to. feel like you were actually there. By having these actors look just like the actual characters we wanted you to feel a part of, we wanted you to not miss a beat in the history.

We wanted you to feel like you were there. We wanted a, an experience. Luckily I looked just like Marcus Garvey and so, but even if I wasn’t, you know, I wrote the film, and I was going to play Marcus Garvey, but even if I didn’t look like Marcus Garvey, we would’ve probably prolonged the production so I can get some surgery done.

So I could look like Marcus Garvey. Yeah, I, I was definitely gonna play ’em. we tried to match the actors to the real life characters as much as possible. Even through the acting, the voice tones those accents that you see in the film with me and my accent and Amy Jack Jacky’s accent.

We wanted you to feel the spirit, you know, the spirit of these characters. We wanted you to feel like you know them. So you can, after watching Miah, you can leave and [00:41:00] tell a friend that, or you can feel like you know, Marcus Gar, you know Amy Jack, or you know, Jack, you know these different characters.

His father, they love the father character. When we screen the film over in Jamaica, they love the father character more than any other character other than my Marcus Garvey character. But they love that character because he’s the only one in the film that does have the true Jamaican accent.

So,

Samuel: It’s always like a trivia question at the end of the film, who’s the real Jamaican in this film that they just go crazy off it. But we wanted things to feel authentic as possible so you can have an experience of history and you can feel like you are a part of history,

Walter: I think that’s like, just like so important, especially when you’re, you know, trying to capture things that have happened, you know, almost, you know, a hundred years ago. and making it real and relatable and like, we’re right there as these things are en unfolding is very important.

And so, so finally Marcus Garvey’s ideas had, I mean to say considerable [00:42:00] influences would be an understatement on movements such as Rastafari, the Nation of Islam and the Black Power Movement. And so, Garvey was posthumously pardoned by Joe Biden earlier 2025. Like you know, a hundred years later, like, what should educators and students today know and remember about Marcus Garvey and his history making leadership and legacy?

Samuel: I think what’s, essential is not just the pardoning in a political form. I’d say a pardoning within society. we need to reeducate educators on black history. We need to push Garvey in the talks of black history. You know, we need to not just push him in the talks of black history, but also clarify, you know, his innocence and fully exonerate Marcus Garvey.

he has been pardoned. He’s been pardoned twice now. He you know, he was pardoned when he was released from federal prison, and deported to Jamaica. And he was pardoned by Joe Biden, thankfully, in 2025. But we’re still pushing for a full exoneration of [00:43:00] Marcus Garvey. And I feel only through that full exoneration do we, get a clear conscious, of him and what he did. I think though he’s pardoned, I think there’s still people say this, the blemishes of miseducation still remain, people still would say, you know, he was a criminal. People could still say, you know, he was all these different things of propaganda that was pushed out to our people. I did another interview not too long ago, and the host there, she had mentioned that, you know, from her research, she found that he couldn’t manage his finances, and that was another downfall. And was horrible with business. And these things aren’t true, you know, like I, expressed, you know, the UNIA was infiltrated by just, not just that one person, but other informants at the times.

And these businesses were purposefully, intentionally tarnished, to downplay this movement. I just go back to my point of, we need to reeducate and then through reeducation, then push the truth in our black history. we’ll learn, you know, it will start not with Marcus [00:44:00] Garvey, but Marcus Garvey plays a huge part, and it is a huge forefather in black movements here in the United States, and that’s factual.

You know, before Martin Luther King, there was Marcus Garvey. Before Malcolm X, there was Marcus Garvey. And a, a lot of people don’t even know, you know, Malcolm X’s parents were huge members of the UNIA. His father was a president of A-U-N-I-A chapter Garvey saw Malcolm X’s parents as his most loyal garveyites, people don’t know that we think that Malcolm X’s yearning desire for black liberation came from prison like.

These were roots, you know, put down to him or instilled in him through his parents and through Marcus Garvey. we just need to through reeducation, properly educate the truth about Marcus Garvey and put him on essential into, into black history, especially African American Black history.

going back to the pardon, it is helpful now because it now sparks dialogue, dialogue that makes Garvey [00:45:00] somewhat more credible, momentum to push forward towards the education of Marcus Garvey. But as far as I’m concerned, through this film, this is my attempt at educating the masses on who Marcus Garvey is.

It’s a reward for me to hear people say, I, never heard of Marcus Garvey before, and now I know who he is. And it’s more of a treat for me to hear people say, wow, why didn’t I know who Marcus Garvey was? And, you know, and, and then I, I, I redirect them back to the film. This is why, you know, so, reeducation, you know, let’s be truthful about black history.

It’s, one thing to say it’s Black History Month, right? And our, we want to cultivate black people off of black history. That’s one thing, but it’s another thing to be truthful in our black history and include all of our historical black giants and influences. You and that’s where we can thrive and grow from, you know, through education accurate education,

Alisha: Wow. Sam, thank you so much. You know, it’s interesting that you ended with [00:46:00] those comments. We’ve been focusing on Black History Month on the podcast this month, and I think you may be our final guest for Black History Month. And, and so I think you, you said it best that as we celebrate Black History Month, as we celebrate Marcus Garvey and others, it’s so important to make sure that educators, that those of us who care about the history of this country are giving the facts.

We need to reeducate ourselves, reeducate others use the tools that we have at our disposal to make sure we’re, telling the truth about black people in this country about their, ingenuity, innovation, brilliance and resilience of black people, and the contributions that black people have made to this country.

And so thank you so much for joining us for your film. Again, for our listeners check it out on Amazon Prime. But this is so important. Your work that you’re doing is so important to tell his story. The [00:47:00] very first cinematic representation that we’ve seen.

I have a feeling it will not be the last

Samuel: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m extremely grateful. It’s a, it’s a stamp. It’s, crazy because, like going back to my background and my upbringing of how I value black history here it is 2025, me now being included in Black history with this film, I call it fate.

I call it destiny. You know? It, it was written and, and God’s purpose to be this way. it’s an honor. And I’m truly elated, for the future of black people, for the future, for black film as well, because this was groundbreaking. There’s a reason why no one attempted to create this project based off of Marcus Garvey.

I’m sorry, there has been attempts, but there’s reasons on why the idea of a film of Marcus Garvey hasn’t prospered, it took Samuel Lee Fudge and Gerard and other key players who were part of this film to Just going back to what you’re saying, just.

creating this film and, putting it out no matter what the consequences [00:48:00] may be or what the outcome may be, just having faith in saying, look, this is more important than whatever could come from this, I just say, just being now a mark in black history an honor uh, man, and it’s, was ordained and I’m truly grateful and I’m truly grateful for you guys giving me an opportunity to share my story and also to share the goodness of this film, you know?

Thank you.

Alisha: Absolutely. It’s a powerful one. Well, thanks again for joining us and keep up the great work Samuel Lee Fudge, we’re proud of you.

Samuel: Thank you. Thank you.

Alisha: Oh my goodness, Walt, that was so good. So cool to find out about how this film was done. More history about Marcus Garvey. Garvey just a great interview, wasn’t it?

Walter: It was really great. I thoroughly enjoyed that one.

Alisha: Excellent. Excellent. Well, before we go, it’s time for our tweet of the week. And this time it comes from Education Next and it’s entitled, which of the Following Approaches to State [00:49:00] Testing Works for US Schools?

Choose the Answer that Best addresses Student Learning Loss. So this was a really interesting article about all of the ways in which we are assessing students, whether or not it’s working, the ways that we may need to change it. Asking the question if some of those requirements that come from the federal government should be changed.

And so this is a really, really important conversation and I hope that it’s not because we’re not doing well and so now we wanna change it. I’m sure there’s a school of thought that believes that, but I also think there’s a way that we can assess students and what they know in different ways. And so I’m excited about this conversation.

Definitely encourage people to check out that article on Education Next. Well, Walt, it was once again, an absolute pleasure to have you join me as guest co-host today. So thank you.

Walter: It was such a pleasure. Let’s do this again very, very soon.

Alisha: Count on it. We will definitely call on you again. We miss Albert [00:50:00] and we appreciate him and also appreciate you stepping in for him today. So thanks again for joining us and thanks all of you for listening and be sure to join us for our next episode. Take care.