ExcelinEd’s Dr. Kymyona Burk on Mississippi, Early Literacy, & Reading Science

The Learning Curve Dr. Kymyona Burk

[00:00:00] Alisha Searcy: Welcome back to the learning curve podcast. I’m one of your co hosts, Alicia Thomas Searcy. Great to be back and have my other co host Dr. Albert Cheng. How are you, Albert?

[00:00:30] Albert Cheng: Hey, doing pretty good. Hope you’re doing well too. We’re halfway through the first month of the new year already. Can you believe that?

[00:00:36] Alisha Searcy: And I’m still trying to figure out what date in January do you stop telling people Happy New Year? Do you know?

[00:00:43] Albert Cheng: Hey, it beats me. You know, I’ve been writing some emails to people I haven’t even written to since last year. And so I’m kind of wrestling with that question too. I don’t know. Maybe we need to poll our listeners or something. You know, what’s the, what’s the latest you can say Happy New Year. But anyway.

[00:00:58] Alisha Searcy: Right. But all is well. I’m sure you heard that Atlanta had a snow day. That’s right. That’s right. We all survived and stayed at home for a few days. So that was beautiful to see from the inside and stay warm.

[00:01:13] Albert Cheng: Yeah, great. Well, we got some too, and I know you guys out in Atlanta, it’s once in a blue moon thing, right?

[00:01:18] Alisha Searcy: Exactly. So it was very exciting and people took full advantage of it. If you are on social media, you should probably just like search Atlanta and snow day and you’ll be quite entertained. So let’s jump in. Um, we’ve got some stories of the week and I’d love for you to go first on yours.

[00:01:36] Albert Cheng: Yeah, sure. I’ve got a story about math. You know, I guess I got to start talking about math again at some point here. And it’s actually an opinion piece on the 74 written by Alina Adams. I hope I’m pronouncing her first name correctly. Title is how keeping eighth graders from taking algebra. can derail their futures in STEM. And the author, I think she just raises the perennial question we have about our scope and sequence of mathematics.

[00:02:01] Do we do algebra in eighth grade? What happens when you delay students? And really, I mean, as the way math is structured, if you don’t take algebra in eighth grade, you don’t get a chance to do calculus in high school. And so, and she tells a story of how her daughter, you know, kind of really. Caught the bug for math a little bit late.

[00:02:18] She had the good fortune of participating in a summer program that really got her interested kind of late in high school and really set her up for success. But you know, she talks about how, hey, you know, like a lot of other students, I think she quotes a statistic about three quarters. I think, um, listeners have to fact check me on this.

[00:02:36] Three quarters of students don’t get the opportunity to take algebra in eighth grade and how that really shuts some doors. So I think it just raises the question we’ve been wrestling with a lot. I see both sides of this. I’m really a big fan of opening up opportunity for math education for all students.

[00:02:53] I think we do have to deal with this issue of, you know, having some doors closed for students, especially as they get later high school. But, you know, I’m also aware of the flip side of this, which is. that some students just, you know, aren’t ready, um, at, at that age. And, and I think this also underscores the problem of, hey, we got to do a better job of preparing students at K through seventh grade so that they’re ready for eighth grade algebra too.

[00:03:17] So it’s a really complicated problem. You know, I’ve been wrestling with this since I was a high school math teacher 25 years ago and the problem is still with us. So anyway, I just want to highlight this article for us to think about. You know, our guest is going to talk to us about about literacy education. And I really, I think we’re, we’re due to have a kind of science of math or, you know, how do we do math education, better conversation in our country, I think.

[00:03:43] Alisha Searcy: Yeah. Lots of good points. And I think what’s exciting for you and folks who are. Mathematicians is that our country is giving a lot more attention to math, right?

[00:03:54] First, there was the science of reading. Now there’s talk about the science of math. And so I’m hoping that this becomes a part of the conversation to your point, because if kids aren’t prepared, you know, up to seventh grade, they’re certainly not going to be ready in eighth grade, and they need to have that.

[00:04:10] You know, the rigor, the introduction to all of the math concepts way before that. And so I think now is the time for those conversations. So I appreciate this conversation now. Right. And this article, I want to talk about a story or really a new study. That’s our report, if you will. It’s by the Hoover institution and a group of.

[00:04:32] Really impressive people, including Dr. Condoleezza Rice, who is one of my favorite people when it comes to education and thought leaders in this area, but a group called Education Futures Council. Now, it’s a 48 page report. I haven’t finished all of it yet, but the crux of it is acknowledging that. You know, we have a lot of work to do in our country in terms of math and ELA and every other subject in terms of our public education system.

[00:04:59] I’m going to read a couple of excerpts just because I, I could not articulate as well as they have in terms of the challenges that we’re facing. But one of the most powerful pieces in the introduction, it says these institutions, the local school boards, state agencies, and federal authorities that all have a say in the working of modern schools.

[00:05:21] Are not the product of coherent and thoughtful design, rather, they evolved over decades to a point where they hinder more than help the cause of improved outcomes for all students. Now, some would say that’s controversial and some might even say, you know, that lends to this whole idea that we don’t need a federal department of education.

[00:05:41] Please. Let’s be clear. That is not what I’m arguing because I believe and even they point out in this report that there is actually a very important role. for the federal government in terms of research and development around education and how we essentially share best practices with schools and school districts.

[00:06:01] And so that’s not what it’s saying, but it really stuck out to me because as I think about the work that I do, certainly as a former legislator, I think about how challenging, how much more challenging Public education is, and certainly when I was a superintendent, because of the involvement of boards, the involvement of state agencies and their requirements that were kind of one size fits all for individual schools that have very different children.

[00:06:31] In very different communities and needs and all of that. And so there are a number of recommendations that are coming out of this report. Another point that I want to add just very quickly. So we’ve identified fundamental barriers within the current K 12 public education system that prevent far too many students from succeeding and thriving.

[00:06:51] Our true north must always point towards student outcomes. Despite national commitment to the issue, steep increases in funding and decades of reform efforts, Our current system has been unable to reverse poor student outcomes, particularly for low income students and students of color. This failure goes against who we profess to be as a nation.

[00:07:12] And so it goes on to talk about solutions such as a new approach that focuses on organizing for student based results, flipping the system from top down to bottom up, which I highly agree with. Minimizing mandates while embracing incentives and cultivating and rewarding professional mastery in the education workforce.

[00:07:33] And so as I close, because I could go on for days, one of our friends who we work with, I think, summed it up well, that basically we want to see schools and school districts have more flexibility, kind of charter like. If you will give them more time, we give them more flexibility. Certainly we want to hold them accountable.

[00:07:51] But at the end of the day, I think this report is so important because as they talk about, it’s not just a sense of urgency that we’re in. It’s a sense of emergency that we’re in. And so I’m looking forward to finishing this report and I hope that educators, policymakers, others. We’ll really read this and we can come together to think about, like, how can we redesign these systems so that they actually work to serve our children?

[00:08:19] Albert Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m looking forward to digging in and thinking through that report some more. I think it seems to me they’re sketching out a totally different framework and actually trying to map out how we might move ahead and think about reform. So yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I want to dig into that. Sure.

[00:08:36] Alisha Searcy: Well, I look forward to talking to you more about it once we both read it. How about that? Yeah. Well, I’m excited about today’s episode. And so when we come back, we have Dr. Kymyona Burk, who is a senior policy fellow at Excel in Ed and they’re friends of ours, of course, focusing on comprehensive science based approach to K3 reading policy.

[00:08:58] So we’ll be right back.

[00:09:11] Dr. Kymyona Burk. Is a senior policy fellow at Excel and Ed. She most recently served in Mississippi as the executive director for the Jackson public school district’s office of teaching and learning and led all aspects of the district’s instructional programming. Prior to this, she was the state literacy director at the Mississippi Department of Education.

[00:09:32] where she led the implementation of Mississippi’s Literacy Based Promotion Act. Kimiana began her career as an elementary reading teacher and has also taught middle and high school English. At Jackson State University, she earned a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science, Master of Arts in Teaching English, Master of Science in Education Administration and Supervision, and a Doctor of Education in Early Childhood Education.

[00:09:57] Dr Burke. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. I am- we are very excited to have you. I don’t do this often, but I’m going to fangirl for just a moment. Okay. Okay. You are a legend. I’ve already read your bio. People know who you are, but you are a legend in this country. Maybe everyone doesn’t know your name, but I think everyone education knows your work. And so we are super excited to have you. I think we’ve been in a room or two together, but I don’t know if we’ve actually met. So it’s an honor to meet you. A great honor to have you on with us and to be able to hear from you about the work that you’ve done to really transform literacy in the country, not just in Mississippi. So thank you for all that you have done. Let me start with that. And thanks for being with us today.

[00:10:47] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Well, thank you so much for having me. Yes, this has been an amazing journey. I just feel very blessed to to be a part of it all and to really kind of support states where I can with the lessons that we’ve learned here in Mississippi. So I’m very excited to be here today to talk about a little bit of that.

[00:11:07] Alisha Searcy: Excellent. Well, let’s jump in. You’re having an accomplished career in K 12 education. And before you moved to Excel and Ed, you worked in Mississippi, where you still live, helping to drive remarkable improvements in early literacy and reading scores. So can you share with us some of your background and how you were drawn to K 12 education reform?

[00:11:30] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Well, I would just say that I initially fought education. My, my father was a school teacher. One of my aunts was the Dean of Student Affairs at a university and I just kind of said to myself that I will not be a teacher, yet I originally had a passion for law, right, for political science.

[00:11:50] That’s where my undergrad degrees in, so I actually entered into the education space through an alternate route, you know, I’ve often reflected on that. It has allowed me to now merge my really kind of love and just spirit for policy and how policy really does drive change and also education. And so I’ve been a teacher.

[00:12:10] Elementary, middle, high school teachers. I’ve also worked at a university, Jackson State University, and then I began working at the State Department of Education, leading the literacy efforts in the state and in 2013, the education reform was kind of broad in our state. And it involved a lot of people, and I know that we’ll get into some of the specifics of what was all included in that.

[00:12:35] I know that we’re kind of most famous for the Literacy Based Promotion Act, my third great literacy law, but there were other things that were happening at that time that I, I call it the perfect storm, you know, that just kind of led us to be At this place at the same time where the sentiment was kind of let’s go big, right? Go big or go home. And I think that we were able to kind of rise to that challenge.

[00:13:00] Alisha Searcy: You know, I’m going to ask if you would tell us more about that. What was going on? What were the conversations like that created this moment?

[00:13:09] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Well, I was at the time working at Jackson State University with an initiative. That really looked at this P 20 approach, like from pre kindergarten through master’s of education, because there was this sentiment that we have to prepare students to go to college, right? So a lot of the students that were being prepared in our K 12 system would enter college and have to take remedial courses.

[00:13:36] And so then those students, as far as the output from the university, then were maybe not even going into education, or if they were going into education, may not have felt as prepared as they should have been to go into the classroom. So, I was working with an initiative to support a peak 20 initiative when our law passed in 2013, but prior to that, we had become kind of a common core state.

[00:14:04] Right. When Common Core came about for the country, there were so many states that kind of opted into this kind of consortium on Common Core state standards. Our teachers had already begun training in Common Core state standards. And during the time that our standards were going to be implemented, then of course we Had a new governor.

[00:14:29] We had a new lieutenant governor. And so there was a sentiment that only after a year of being involved in this consortium with common core that then we would leave the consortium and Mississippi would create its own standards. Yes. So what common core actually did for us, though, was really lay the foundation to more rigorous standards.

[00:14:51] Being a teacher in Mississippi, prior to this overhaul of our state standards, we had objected. So our standards weren’t very rigorous. We kind of called ourselves the poster Child for the honesty gap, where our national assessment was saying that we weren’t doing well at all. But our state assessment were saying that we were doing okay.

[00:15:12] So we had to get to a point where we looked at that gap in data and then to decide that we have to do something in order to really narrow that gap so that we could look at data that was more reflective of really what our Children could do. And that started with our standards and how we were teaching And our expectations for our students.

[00:15:33] So we had to increase that. So not only did we change our standards, we also adopted a new assessment system that was more aligned to the national assessment that would give us better data that was better reflective of our students and their abilities, right? In those. Particular tested areas. And we had a new accountability system that we were implementing at the time that looked at proficiency.

[00:15:55] It also looked at growth for our students. So there were some other things happening behind the scenes that really kind of supported and was able to help us when we begin implementing the literacy based Promotion Act because we had already put some other things in place.

[00:16:10] Alisha Searcy: That’s very helpful context that I know a lot of us didn’t know. So thank you for sharing that. You mentioned national scores, and so I want to talk about NAEP for a second. Not long ago, Mississippi’s fourth graders were reading more than a full grade level behind the national average on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, also known as NAEP. And so by 2019, Mississippi fourth graders scored higher. than the nation’s public school average in mathematics, tied the nation in reading, and we’re making the largest score gains. So can you talk about these achievements and the state and district level leadership necessary to drive these kind of dramatic improvements?

[00:16:51] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Yes. And, you know, just to even hear you say that to mention those statistics, it just still makes me very proud of all of the work that we were doing during that time that I was at the state agency and the work that we continue to do.

[00:17:05] I think that for us with this initiative with our literacy based promotion act that included literacy coaches and on the ground support for schools and teachers. This was our state’s 1st state led effort. To ensure that there were boots on the ground and that there was support and there was monitoring in a non evaluative way of how schools were doing and ways in which we could be more of a service oriented agency because our department of it had been seen as.

[00:17:40] An auditing agency, right? If you see the State Department come to your school, then something’s wrong, right? Then they’re auditing you for something. So, you know, a part of this was also changing the perception of the state agency to be that of support and to begin to, you know, build these relationships so that districts could trust.

[00:18:02] That what we were saying and the suggestions that we were making about changing practices that so many had that had been happening for decades, really, in schools was the right thing to do for kids. And so I always talk about my first two years of being at the department was a lot of PR. It was a lot of going to the communities, talking to parents, talking to other stakeholders, talking to other legislators, because all legislators were not on board.

[00:18:28] Right. With passing the Literacy Based Promotion Act, they just were not. And so, how do we begin to have these conversations to say, you know, we’re going to let our work speak for us and just trust us. And that had to do with a lot of relationship building, which is something that I think that a lot of states have to begin to initiate.

[00:18:48] It’s one thing to kind of sit in our offices and say, this is what you should do. And then there’s another thing to say that, hey, this is what’s best for kids and we’re going to help you. We’re going to help you do that. So, so messaging was also a very important part of, of how we interacted with school districts, but there were some hard lines, right?

[00:19:09] There were some hard lines that had to be drawn, which was. We’re going to screen students three times per year if you’re in a school that is receiving literacy coach support, your teachers must go through professional development to increase their knowledge of how to teach reading. Right? So, there were things that were within the law that I always feel like were needed in order for us to be able to stand our ground on.

[00:19:32] This is the floor. Yes. Whether you’re in the Delta, which is really the poorest area in the country. So whether you’re in the Delta of Mississippi or whether you’re in one of the highest, you know, advantaged areas in the state, then it’s every child’s right to have access to a teacher who knows how to teach reading, right?

[00:19:52] So our law created for us this space where this was our non negotiable. These particular criteria would be our non negotiable for how we were going to teach reading. in our state. And then all the other things came with that. Now you have to trust that we know what we’re talking about right now. You have to allow us to be in your schools and to to work with your teachers on data analysis and to choose the right assessments of the tools that you’ll need to identify kids early.

[00:20:20] It’s really not as easy as saying here’s your checklist. of things you should do. There’s the human aspect of it all. The relationship building aspect of it all that has to complement those things as well.

[00:20:33] Alisha Searcy: Excellent, excellent. I love, I think this is the quote of the day for me. Every child has a right to have access to a teacher who knows how to teach reading.

[00:20:43] Dr. Kymyona Burk: That’s right.

[00:20:44] Alisha Searcy: Very, very powerful.

[00:20:45] Dr. Kymyona Burk: That’s right. My favorite quote is, your best investment is investment in people. Yes, that’s in those people who are standing in front of kids every day and who are making those decisions as to how to provide what they need. We have to invest in them.

[00:21:01] Alisha Searcy: Excellent. Excellent. I have 1 more question and then I have to turn it over to Albert. Although I probably could ask 15 more, but here’s my last 1. American K 12 students have struggled with basic reading, right, as we’re talking about and as reflected by NAEP reading scores. It’s largely unchanged for many years, and this is pre COVID.

[00:21:24] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Exactly. Like, let’s get into the nitty gritty of how we teach reading in this country, the strengths and weaknesses of whole language and phonics reading, and what we need to do to improve students enjoyment. of and the performance in reading, you know, and the thing about it is, I think that for those who are not familiar with the science of reading and, you know, talk about the reading wars and science of reading versus whole language or versus balanced literacy, there’s this notion that through the science of how to teach reading, that there aren’t opportunities for children to enjoy reading.

[00:22:01] And that’s just not true with talking about reading and talking about phonics. Specifically, I think that there’s just a lot of conversation that phonics is the science of reading, but it involves so much more than that. It involves those early literacy skills. Of course, the foundations of being able to hear the sounds and phonemic awareness, being able to match sounds to letters, right?

[00:22:22] And phonics. But then you go much further. Children have to be able to. Read fluently and read with expression. They also have to be able to access vocabulary and meaning and background knowledge plays an important role in that, you know, our mechanics with sentence structure. So there are a lot of nuances to learning how to read, which is why the code based approach, you know, teaching Children how to read systematically, explicitly, you know, the same way that you would teach a child how to play baseball or how to play football or how to play tennis.

[00:22:57] You stand like this, you hold your legs like this, you hold the, you know, the back like this, right? So going through step by step through the science of reading and what’s considered the phonics based approach is the way in which we teach beginners all other things. So when it comes to reading, because reading is not natural, like speaking is for us, then that is needed for about 60 to 65 percent of our students.

[00:23:25] If you’ve seen the letter of reading and writing by Nancy Young, it really has a great representation of How many of our students need explicit, systematic code based instruction that I kind of described with learning how to play the different sports as opposed to those students who are because they’re exposed to language, oral language when they’re growing up right there.

[00:23:47] They have this language acquisition. They’re able to communicate. It helps them when they begin to see text that they can begin to match and have those experiences match then what they’re reading for those students with limited exposure is very difficult for them. So, when we talk about the practices of whole language, for example, or balance literacy, where students are kind of taught to guess at words, or look at the context around the words, or even look at the picture to identify or to really guess.

[00:24:19] And what this word could be that takes the child’s attention away from actually reading the printed word. And then it leads them to guessing. But guess what happens when those students become a little older when they begin to see chapter books or more texts that don’t have pictures or other things that they can rely on.

[00:24:41] Right, to help them figure out a word, then it becomes very difficult for them to be able to access text. So, teaching children how to read the word is the best and most efficient way to ensure that they have a strong foundation in how to learn how to read. I think the pandemic, you know, for all the things that went wrong during the pandemic, I think that in some cases, parents, caregivers, for the first time, who were sitting next to their children as they were, learning to read, you know, the, uh, online, right.

[00:25:16] Found out that some of their children were struggling.

[00:25:18] And those were things that they didn’t necessarily know intimately before. If a child comes home with a book and they are just reading and you’re like, Oh my gosh, they’re reading, but they’ve memorized this book, the book of the week. Right. So they, they, they’ve memorized all the things, but when you take.

[00:25:34] Those other things away like pictures or other things, then they really struggle with those words. So that’s why, you know, I’m an advocate for code based science of reading approach in making sure that children understand how to access that code in order to know how to read and to read. Well, makes total sense.

[00:25:54] Thank you. Thank you.

[00:25:56] Albert Cheng: I mean, Dr. Burke, this is fascinating to hear just more of the backstory of what was going on in Mississippi and, you know, your expertise on, on the science of reading and, and reading instruction. So I want to continue just, you know, where you left off, just speaking about, you know, how we teach reading.

[00:26:10] I don’t want our listeners to overlook the importance of early childhood education in this. Um, you know, you were part of the leadership team that implemented Mississippi’s first publicly funded. Early Learning Collaborative Program and that earned state recognition from the National Institute for Early Education Research.

[00:26:26] Just for our listeners who aren’t familiar with that, can you just describe what that program is and then just continue discussing what’s the importance of early childhood education and literacy and the success you had in Mississippi?

[00:26:38] Dr. Kymyona Burk: I always say kiss a kindergarten teacher. Um, because listen, Mississippi, I think is one of the last Southern states that doesn’t have universal pre K as far as the state funded access for all four year olds to see what’s in school formally.

[00:26:56] Right? So, in 2013, in addition to literacy based promotion act being passed. The early learning collaborative act was also passed. So this was another piece of the puzzle where at the same time, we understood that we need to address what’s happening in K three, but also begin to provide additional seats and access for our four year olds.

[00:27:20] So when our early learning collaborative act was originally passed, I believe there was like a 3 million state allocation. With the early learning collaborative act, a school district can partner with a head start a public or private school pre K program or another early childhood program and complete this application and submit it to the Department of Education.

[00:27:45] This is it. We’re going to work together to ensure. That those four year olds who will be then entering into the kindergarten space are prepared and are ready for kindergarten. That approach looks very similar to our approach in K 3, um, which is why we earned the recognition from NEAR where we meet all 10 of those standards.

[00:28:07] There is high quality curriculum. There are opportunities for professional development for those teachers in those four year old programs. There are opportunities for coaches. to support those teachers on the ground in those schools. And there, of course, are opportunities for a lot of cross collaboration.

[00:28:26] So it’s ensuring that in our four year old programs that we’re focusing on all the things that are, of course, are developmentally appropriate. But Also beginning those stages of teaching children how to read, you know, their sounds, their letters, and all of those things to begin to get them ready for kindergarten.

[00:28:45] The one thing that we’ve been able to do since that initial year of funding of 3 million is now I believe the funding may be up to 20 million or so. We have a lot more access for so many more kids to early childhood opportunities. And also, we’ve been able to compare the data, which really tells the story in which has been used as the lever in order to receive additional funding over the years for our students who are involved in these collaboratives again, really understanding for those pre K programs.

[00:29:22] What children should know and be able to do by the time they enter kindergarten with all of the things included our students in our collaboratives outperform our students who are in regular title one pre K programs or those students who come from Head Start or those students who come from, of course, home or other child care programs.

[00:29:41] So we’re able to look at that data when those students enter kindergarten because we have a portion of our program. state system to identify students. We have a portion of our state information system for our students that when they enter kindergarten, we know exactly where those students were as a four year old.

[00:29:59] So we’re able to look at the four year old experience. Of those students and then compare that data from our kindergarten readiness assessment, and we have really seen a lot of growth from our students who were prepared in those programs fast.

[00:30:15] Albert Cheng: I mean, we could dig into that and, you know, have a whole nother show really talking about that program, but, you know, time’s winding down.

[00:30:23] So, so I’ve got 2 more questions for you. So, you know, we talk about this notion of being a good reader. And one question that comes to my mind is, hey, what should kids be reading, you know, to be a good reader? Are we talking about, you know, myths and fiction, history, biography? I mean, what’s your recommendation?

[00:30:39] What do kids need to be reading to give them the language, the vocabulary and knowledge to be a good reader? Everything.

[00:30:47] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Anything. Those things that interest them, whether it’s an article, whether it’s a how to guide, whether it’s a recipe on tiktok, whatever it is, students should be reading a variety of things.

[00:31:01] Um, it’s not just that students should be walking around with chapter books, which is great. They should have chapter books. They can have magazine on tiktok. articles, anything. And those things that interest them are those things that are really going to kind of catch their eye. Initially, there’s just this conversation around, you know, we want Children to enjoy reading.

[00:31:21] Albert Cheng: Yeah, that’s part of the show with that.

[00:31:23] Dr. Kymyona Burk: But I’ll tell you this Children really enjoy reading when they know how to read.

[00:31:27] Albert Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:29] Dr. Kymyona Burk: So we’ll say that. But then also just in the formal education system that Children should be reading history. They should be reading science. They should learn about the weather.

[00:31:39] They should learn about all of these other things. And just their position in the world and in relation to all of these things. So just the more knowledge that we can give children, the more access they’ll have to other things that they care about. That’s how they choose their careers. That’s how they choose, you know, other things that they’re interested in.

[00:31:59] So everything, anything that interests them and things that of course are relevant to the content that they’re learning in school.

[00:32:06] Albert Cheng: You know, your, your answer reminds me, I think it was CS Lewis who was writing about, you know, why we read. And fiction in particular. And you know, the whole idea is to get beyond ourselves and kind of open up ourselves to the world that’s actually around us.

[00:32:19] So your response just reminded me of that, that aspect of reading. Hey, last question. So I’m gonna give you the last word here. We’ve been talking about what’s been going on in Mississippi. And now of course, nationwide, um, everywhere, you know, we’ve been talking about learning loss. You know, we’ve talked about NAEP and the declines in those scores of late from COVID, but also preceding it. So, last word, what’s your advice to current state policy makers about how to recover that learning loss in our K 12 schools?

[00:32:50] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Well, I’ll say this. We have a lot of champions, a lot of policymakers who are champions for early literacy across the country. We have now almost 40 states that have adopted laws related to reading instruction, the science of reading and supports for teachers and students and parents and families.

[00:33:07] I think that one of the key components. Um, and so what we’re trying to do with this is that policymakers should have a conversation with the Department of it to see what is needed in order to support and fully support implementation, because passing a law is the first step, but implementation is key so we can all put our checklists from different states next to each other and say, wow, this is similar. Okay. You have this. We also have this right? But it’s the implementation that sets different states apart.

[00:33:38] So finding out what is needed from the department, in some cases, there may be one person who’s responsible now for this new literacy law that has been passed, where in other states, they may have an entire department that is going to be responsible for implementation. So, funding matters, like all of those things that we’re going to be asking states and school districts to do and to do differently funding and support and infrastructure support at the state agency is going to be key. And that comes with this very kind of transparent and collaborative relationship around the policy on the policymaker side of things and the practice on the state education agency side of things. So just Just understanding the needs in order to make implementation effective.

[00:34:24] Albert Cheng: All right. Implementation. Those are wise words. We’ve been talking with Dr. Kimiana Burke. Dr. Burke, thank you so much for your time. It’s been a fascinating conversation and I hope encouraging to folks that are in this world of improving our nation’s schools. Yes.

[00:34:39] Alisha Searcy: Thank you so much. And I’ll just add before we let you go that again, it was an honor to have you. I’m going to give you a new title today. I think you are America’s literacy expert. And I, and I say that for real. And I also hope that many people have told you, thank you for literally transforming the lives of children for generations. This is monumental work that you have done and you are continuing to lead across the country. So thank you for your contributions. What a legacy you are having. Thank you.

[00:35:14] Dr. Kymyona Burk: Thank you so much. Just blessed to be a part of it all. So thank you.

[00:35:27] Alisha Searcy: Wow. That was amazing. I’ve always wanted to ask her a number of questions. So this was a great interview. Wasn’t just She’s just, you know, inspiring and just amazing to have done all of this work and continuing to do it. Yeah, yeah,

[00:35:41] Albert Cheng: it was a real treat for me to hear firsthand what was going on and I hope this momentum continues, you know, we can improve some student outcomes here.

[00:35:48] Alisha Searcy: It absolutely must. And so, before we head out, it’s time for the Tweet of the Week. Albert, what do you have?

[00:35:55] Albert Cheng: Oh yeah, that’s right. The Tweet of the Week this week comes from Education Next. Universal school choice programs probably cost states money. Period. They’re worth it. Period. I don’t know. I feel like I have to figure out a way to make known the punctuation here.

[00:36:09] But, hey, check out the tweet and check out the article, if you’re listening, that’s attached to the tweet. It’s actually a fascinating study. So there’s a debate out there about how much a lot of these universal school choice programs are costing states. Do they save money? Or if they don’t, how much additional money?

[00:36:27] And I’ve dug a little bit into this and man, there’s lots of accounting and lots of assumptions and lots of numbers you got to play with. And so for folks who are interested in that, check out the article that’s referenced here. It references a nice study that tries to get a good count. And I don’t know if you’re surprised or not surprised. It’s kind of hard to figure the answer out, but this person tries to do it. So check out the article.

[00:36:51] Alisha Searcy: Thank you for that. Very interesting indeed. Well, I’m excited about next week’s show. We’ve got Lerone Martin, who is the Martin Luther King, Jr. Centennial professor in religious studies and the director of the ML King. Junior research and education Institute at Stanford university. So make sure you join us next week, Albert, as always, it is wonderful to co host with you.

[00:37:17] Albert Cheng: Yeah, same here. Alicia love our, our, the guests we get, you know, we get to interview some great guests and have some great conversation and looking forward to next week.

[00:37:24] Like you said, that’s right. Everybody take care. Hey, it’s Albert Cheng here. And I just want to thank you for listening to the learning curve podcast. If you’d like to support the podcast further, we invite you to donate to the Pioneer Institute at pioneerinstitute.org/donations.