Alisha: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Learning Curve Podcast. I’m your co host, Alicia Thomas Sarcey, Southern Regional President with Democrats for Education Reform, and joined by my other co host, Professor Dr. Albert Chang. Albert, how are you? Hey, doing good, Alicia. You? I am doing well. I have been uh, I am super excited, I should say.

Alisha: I have been planning for the last few months a regional convening for About 40 elected officials from six southern states. Nice. We’re talking all things education reform science of reading funding formula accountability and public charter schools, so they’re all coming to atlanta this weekend I am very excited and looking forward to a great time together and hopefully Setting an agenda right for kids for 2025 with these.

Alisha: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah No, that sounds exciting. I’m glad that’s happening. 

Albert: I can’t wait to see what comes out of it. 

Alisha: Me too. And it’ll be our first one in my new role. So wish [00:01:00] me luck. All right. Yeah. But I’m, I’m feeling good about it. And so, yes, I am. Well, I’m looking forward to our show today. Governor Chris Sununu before we get into that, though, it’s time for our articles of the week.

Alisha: Yeah, 

Albert: sure. You know, I’ll kick it off. I mean, I guess we’re kind of obligated to talk a little bit about the election, although I’m kind of want to move forward to, you know, or at least just think through policy, you know, education wise kind of actually maybe in the spirit of what you’re doing.

Albert: is this coming weekend. You know, so actually I saw an article on Forbes and by Mike McShane over from EdChoice giving us kind of a rundown of some of the school choice ballot issues that were in variety of states this past week. And, you know, he actually starts the article with three cases where I guess progress to expand school choice kind of got voted down.

Albert: I’m sorry, you mentioned Kentucky, Colorado, Nebraska, were some referenda designed expand school choice and they all got voted down. So, He’s kind of giving that sobering [00:02:00] assessment, I guess, if you will. But know, I encourage you to read to the end. he’s saving the best for last.

Albert: To make sure that readers read to the end. He says that actually, you know what, he’s still quite optimistic because, you know, Despite these referenda that didn’t get passed school choice seemed to be an issue that, voters cared about in, choosing particularly elected officials.

Albert: And so I know we’ve talked on the show about what’s going on in Texas, for instance. So anyway, that’s, his assessment on, on just the landscape. So I don’t know, I, I wonder if there’s a, different kind of appetite for school choice at least in, in Texas. You know that issue and as we think about education reform I know the results weren’t quite as Favorable with some issues.

Albert: I think this is what you want to talk about, right? The MCAS update and accountability 

Alisha: I do and it is a very interesting article and conversation right now to your point about what will happen in school choice and you know, some states said no they don’t want that And I think there’s an interesting change in politics here You [00:03:00] You know, who’s supporting public school choice, who’s supporting vouchers and essays.

Alisha: And so this, national conversation that’s bubbling up, I find quite interesting. And then, of course, with the new administration and, you know, the ideas that we’re starting to hear. I think we all have to pay very close attention to see what happens. and to that point, I want to talk about this article entitled voters and the MCAS graduation test requirement in Massachusetts.

Alisha: So this is a big deal, Albert. This is the Commonwealth beacon. So we all know that Massachusetts has led the nation in education for decades. And always in the top, 2 to 3, if not 1 all the time. And so the fact that a key piece of the ed reform laws that were passed in the 90s has now been dismantled I think is something of concern.

Alisha: I understand this, again, concern that people have about [00:04:00] over testing, high stakes testing, you know, the pressure that it adds to students. I have kids, you have kids, we know what it’s like when they’ve taken, you know, one of those high stakes tests. And so understand the concern there. here’s my deeper concern.

Alisha: I think there is this movement across the country and it’s bipartisan where we’re seemingly watering down. Standards watering down accountability. We’re not really going to be sure how students are performing. And so this, as an example, this was a graduation test required for students, to graduate from high school in Massachusetts.

Alisha: And so taking away this test essentially will not give educators, parents, students the information that they need to know. Do I know what I’m supposed to know by the time I graduate from high school as compared to other students in my state? And so this is an for me. I think it was a bad move in Massachusetts.

Alisha: I respect the work that happens [00:05:00] there. It cannot go unnoticed that the teacher’s union spent. More than 16 million on this effort. And so I have some questions about why this was such a big deal for the Massachusetts teachers association, why they wanted to get rid of this test. And then it is my hope that perhaps it’s going to be replaced with something.

Alisha: I think we should all agree that we need an assessment of some sort. So if they had an issue with this one, let’s replace it. But we have to know how students are performing and we need to tell, okay. Them and parents and educators, the truth about how they’re performing. 

Albert: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I I full in, full agreement.

Albert: You know, with, what you said there you often say with some colleagues, you know, we, we ought to measure what we value. Yes. And you know, like you, I mean, I, I’m, I’ll be first in line to say that test scores on everything, but, they are something and we gotta care about academic learning as well in addition to lots of other.

Albert: Educational goals. So, yeah, I mean, this is pretty significant. I mean, you [00:06:00] know, for you know, some of my students who just kind of gotten into ed reform within the past five years. You know, they don’t have view. I think that many of us have where, you know, I mean, the nineties where a lot of this stuff started and we’re talking about 30 years of trying something out and, now we’re kind of taking a different direction.

Albert: So, yeah, we’ll see how it goes, but, hope you know, we can do right by our kids for our kids and You know, I understand there’s lots of other interests there, but at the end of the day, I mean, there comes a point where you can’t sacrifice somebody else’s interest for the interest of upcoming generation.

Albert: So, yes, anyway, I’m gonna get off my soapbox. I mean, we’ve got a great guest, but we’ll see what happens. hope you have good conversation at your event this weekend to kind of think about we’re headed for accountability and choice and all these other educational issues.

Alisha: And those things are all on the agenda. So I’m looking forward to it. It’s a perfect time for this. So thanks for that. Well, coming up after the break, we have with us guest Christopher Sununu, the 82nd governor of the [00:07:00] state of New Hampshire. So excited about that and stay tuned.

Alisha: Governor Christopher Sununu is the 82nd governor of the state of New Hampshire. Before being elected governor in 2016, Governor Sununu served three terms on the New Hampshire executive council, representing 32 cities and towns in Rockingham and Hillsborough counties. In 2010, Governor Sununu led a group of investors in the [00:08:00] buyout of Waterville Valley Resort.

Alisha: Where he worked as chief executive officer and was in charge of expansion of the ski resort done in cooperation with the United States Forest Service. And environmental engineer, Governor Sununu, worked for 10 years, cleaning up hazardous waste sites across the country. He graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, with a BS in civil, environmental engineering.

Alisha: So governor, welcome to the show. We’re pleased to have you. I’m going to jump right in. You are from a well known New Hampshire political family. And so can you talk about some of your family’s background, your upbringing, What it must be like having a father who was a governor and a chief of staff to the president of the United States.

Alisha: And also a brother who is a congressman and senator. 

Christopher: Yeah. Well, what do you, we should ask them what it’s like for them to have a son and a brother, that’s the coolest governor in America, it must be. No, look, honestly, like New Hampshire politics is a little bit different. So I know I’m [00:09:00] from a political family, so to say, but you have to understand in New Hampshire.

Christopher: There are political families everywhere, right? It’s all about service. We have 400 members in our legislature. They get elected every two years. They get paid a hundred bucks a year, which means this massive turnover. It’s really a citizen’s government. And so, when you add in all the local control that we have, you yourself are not running for office, I guarantee you someone in your family or you’re related to probably is.

Christopher: That’s just the way it’s kind of done here. Now, obviously in my family, You know, my father being the governor and the chief of staff and my brother as a congressman and a U. S. senator, maybe we’ve a few of us have, you know, continued on. But to be honest, we’re talking about education here and that’s where it all starts, right?

Christopher: My dad was a professor. Education was super important. A family of ten education was always a People think my dad got involved in politics. Nope. It was my mom. Well, why? Because she was on the school board. When you have eight kids, guess what? You get on the school board, you want to have some sense of control and what’s happening with your child’s development on all those, you [00:10:00] know, critical moments, hours of the day what’s happening in your community.

Christopher: It was my mom that was on the school board first and she would drag us to the school board. Yeah, I’d sit on the floor coloring or doing what I was doing while she was at the school board meetings at the base of the library doing her thing, and then my dad was on the planning board. He was a professor at Tufts, but he was on the planning board at the same time, and then he ran for local offices again, as a lot of folks in New Hampshire do.

Christopher: he eventually ends up running for governor and chief of staff. My brother Running for Congress in the 90s and then U. S. Senate in the early 2000s. And, we were always taught, you got to give back, you got to find your thing. And I really believe this for everybody in the country. sometimes it takes a while to figure out what your thing is, but it’s service.

Christopher: It’s something else you’re going to do over and above expectation for your community. Maybe it’s being a teacher. Maybe it’s donating time at the food bank. Maybe it’s running for office, but whatever it is, find your thing and give a little extra back. That was always really ingrained in all of us growing up.

Christopher: So that’s really what it was. And when, you know, Thanksgiving dinner, [00:11:00] we did not talk politics. I can tell you, we almost never talked politics. No, no, no, never. My mom even was at one point became the head of the Republican party here in New Hampshire. Right before my dad became governor back in the early eighties.

Christopher: I don’t remember. I was just a young kid at the time, but we do not talk politics in the house. Because, because, you know, In New Hampshire, it’s not what defines you. It’s just your thing. It’s how you serve. It’s what you give back. It’s not a career. And that’s why, we get to the point where I’m in my fourth term, but I’m not running for a fifth term because I shouldn’t.

Christopher: I love doing it. I mean, I love doing this job and I think I’m pretty darn good at it and all that. You have to know when you know, leave it better than you found it. Don’t overstay your welcome. Understand that it’s public service, not public career. Those are the types of things that were ingrained in us in our family.

Christopher: And yeah, again, if we were having a discussion or a debate my house my dad grew up in Queens, so he was a Yankee fan. The rest of us grew up in New England, so we were Red Sox fans. So that’s usually where the family fights really [00:12:00] revolved around. 

Alisha: I love it. And I love that it starts with service.

Alisha: That’s beautiful. And we have to point out that it also started with your mom. Thanks for bringing that up. Love that. So you graduated from Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Fairfax County, Virginia, which as we know, is a state chartered magnet high school. So can you talk about attending a competitive magnet school and how your formative educational experiences shaped your views on K 12 education reform?

Christopher: Yeah, I tell you, that was just an amazingly fortuitous thing where my father became the White House Chief of Staff, and next thing I know, growing up in New England. When I was in the eighth grade, all of a sudden, I’m not going to live in New England anymore. Like, I, we have to, my younger brother and I were going to move with my parents down to D.

Christopher: C. We didn’t want to go nor do I want to go today. It’s funny how some things never change. But, going down there, I knew nothing about it. We happened to live in the area. Hey, there’s this high school. You have to take a test to get in. Remember at the time, there weren’t really charter [00:13:00] schools. And the concept of even a magnet school, is what they called it at the time, was very, very unique.

Christopher: But it was very simple. It was like, Hey, there’s this great high school. You have to take a test to get in. You want to try? Yeah, sure. Why not? So I took a test, and two months later I was going to this high school. Because for me, I was going to a new high school anyway. I didn’t, it was all going to be completely new.

Christopher: But because of the opportunity that that provided, I took it. It really did. I mean, I always liked going to school and I liked education, but it really set me on a path in high school where I had a lot of choices. Now, when you’re there in the moment, I think for the first couple of years, you figure, okay, this is just like every other high school, but it really wasn’t.

Christopher: It was very competitive high school, but there were so many choices. And towards the end, I realized, holy cow, was I lucky to go to a place like this. And that got me thinking, you know, don’t slow down now. And I ended up applying to MIT and I was, I was, Bless to get into MIT and later became an engineer, but it really all started with Thomas Jefferson, and it was just more of an accident than anything, but I was really blessed to do it.

Christopher: And then [00:14:00] from there, as you know, I mean, you have all these kind of different models that spurned from that. You know, that was really based on meritocracy and, you know, you had to take the test and qualify to get in and all that, but the idea of choice got bigger and bigger. That was the 1989. And I think it was when I, when I first went to high school.

Christopher: So through the nineties, now you start these different models what school choices, homeschooling, charter schools, what these are going to look like. It’s not just public versus private. It’s really an acceptance. Charter schools are going to be an extension of the public school system and again during that time I was again going through college and I kind of moved on from from Thomas Jefferson But it really was an amazing opportunity that I’d say probably in starting around my senior year till today Really opened my eyes to the value of just choice the value that not everybody has the same opportunities and you know, I the way I always put it is You Why should only the rich kids get private school, you know, get the education they want, right?

Christopher: Make sure that it’s really an equal opportunity from everyone. And if you do that, it allows [00:15:00] that competition. It’s a rising tide floats all boats. clearly there’s a lot of different ways to do it. 

Alisha: Yeah, those early experiences are so important to informing the way we see the world, the way we see policy.

Alisha: And speaking of that, as you mentioned, you graduated from MIT. Yeah. Along with other members of your family with a degree in engineering. So, can you talk about importance of your studying in the STEM field and how that’s informed your understanding analysis and management of public policy issues, including in K 12 education?

Christopher: Sure. No, it’s a great question. It hits, hits at home. So, I was an engineer. And look, engineering at its core is all about problem solving and public policy is all about problem solving. If you just focus on policy in terms of what you think is best and a good idea that gets written into a bill, that’s only a tenth of the battle.

Christopher: The challenge is how do you operationalize that? How do you make it something real and tangible for the citizens that trying to provide an opportunity for? So as an [00:16:00] engineer, you learn very quickly. To design flexibility, you learn very quickly that you never design it the right way. You learn to pre plan and think ahead in terms of the barriers that may come down the road.

Christopher: , and to be honest, I can’t think of any background more fitting for public policy operations or being a governor than an engineer. In fact, if anything we have way too many lawyers. In public service, I think the lawyers should stick with the law firms and let the engineers and then the problem solvers really become, the folks that can create something.

Christopher: So, so much, especially in Washington, right? You see stuff hit a piece of paper, but do we ever feel it in our lives? Do we ever feel like things moved or they move so glacially slow by the time it’s actually happening? You know, the moment is kind of past. So the best thing I can do is create flexibility, be nimble and give ourselves accountability and metrics to hit so that we’re those goals and give it to my team so that they know what the mission is.

Christopher: They’re fulfilling on it. if they can’t for some reason, okay, well, why not? What was the barrier? Oh, well, that’s [00:17:00] okay. We created flexibility. We can pivot here. We can pivot there. That’s what engineering is. And MIT can teach you, you know, all the mathematics of all the different pieces that you need for a, system.

Christopher: But at the end of the day, the, the, what you really learn, what I really got out of MIT was all those intangible problem solving skills so that no matter what I’m hit with, Hopefully, we can really design our way around it and that’s what choice is if you think about it, right? Parents have the same problem parents will say well a school or a pathway or a system isn’t working for my kid so i’ve hit a barrier.

Christopher: Well, how do I work around that? Well, not every parent knows the system and understands it. So by creating choice You’re empowering the parents to be better engineers for their own kids to design the pathway. And maybe it’s a charter school. Maybe it’s private school. Maybe it’s home school. Maybe it’s, I mean, who knows what it is, right?

Christopher: my whole point is, it’s not for the government to provide a solution. It’s up to the government to provide an opportunity. my job is to create [00:18:00] as many doors of Opportunity as possible because I don’t know your story. I don’t know your situation I don’t know your kid’s situation, but I’ll provide as many doors as I can and then live for your die We’re from the live for your die state of New Hampshire.

Christopher: You do you you pick the door that’s best for you And i’ll i’ll design the best options for you, to take you on that journey and so I think it just clicks so fundamentally with being an engineer I can’t imagine having any other background and being on this job and trying to be successful with it.

Alisha: I love the way you put that. I’ve never heard it said that way, that government is not responsible for the solution, but responsible for the opportunity. Very well said. I appreciate that perspective. 

Christopher: if I may, so many people say I have a, I can solve this problem. I can solve the housing crisis.

Christopher: We can solve this. No. Because even if it’s a good solution, by the way. There’s no way it’s a solution for everybody. There’s no way there’s a one size fits all solution for all of our, you know, bigger picture problems, especially out of Washington, D. C. Right? Because New Hampshire should be designing [00:19:00] its own path and solutions for the dynamics in New Hampshire.

Christopher: And that might be so different than California or Mississippi or even Massachusetts, So, it’s never, it should never be about the solution. It should always be about the solution. What are the opportunities? And the only way I know what, how many doors and what doors to design, to engineer for you and your family around education is if I go talk to you.

Christopher: It’s not by talking to the legislature. It’s not by sitting in my office, right? It’s by going out and talking to parents and teachers, students themselves administrators, And the more I can talk as an engineer, I’m collecting the data, I’m collecting the variables. Now I can get a better picture of what’s out there.

Christopher: And even in a small state like New Hampshire, what works on the seacoast might be very different than the needs and the door of opportunity. I can create in the North country. 

Alisha: Wow. I that’s so powerful and so important. I wish more people could hear that. We got to make sure people hear this interview.

Alisha: You mentioned a couple of seconds ago about talking to people. So I’m guessing you’ve had a lot of [00:20:00] conversations with your wife who is a special education teacher. That’s right And we know has taught you a lot about k 12 education reform And so as a governor who’s been a national leader on early childhood education school choice and ed reform and we appreciate that very much can you talk to us about the importance of school choice and you have a little bit But talk a little bit more and that is a means for early literacy.

Alisha: Special education Oh, yeah 

Christopher: Oh, no, you’ve hit it right on the head. So It’s hard. You can’t talk about school choice and not appreciate what’s the value of special ed, right? Because special ed is a function of choice within the public school system. It’s saying you, your son or daughter as an individual might have multiple options.

Christopher: A different, an extra need or an extra learning pathway, a different way of learning than their, than they might be learning in those, the traditional four walls of the classroom. We don’t need to pull ’em out of the school per se. We just need to give them, and I won’t even call it a little extra help. I mean, sometimes it can be in that form, I would call it just finding [00:21:00] someone to get them on a different path.

Christopher: A different learning path. A learning style. Maybe they’re auditory learners. Maybe they’re visual learners, maybe they. You know that the assignment is to constantly take notes, but they have dyslexia or whatever it is And they’re just as smart as anyone else in the classroom But the pathway to get the good grade and to feel like they’re you know, they have self worth in the fulfilling the mission just that’s not in them, right?

Christopher: So it’s just providing another opportunity for them. We’re engine again I go back to that concept. We’re engineering a new pathway. So my wife was a special ed teacher for a long time She went back she grew up in the inner city So Valerie grew up in Chelsea, Mass in the 70s. The schools were under receivership at the time.

Christopher: It’s a really, really tough town. And you know, she was the white girl in the fully, Hispanic community. She speaks wonderful and fluent Spanish. And when she got her degree in special ed, she said, I’m going right. That’s my home. I want to contribute to that community.

Christopher: So she went back and taught special ed in the school that she grew up in, in the inner city school. And then we, a few years later, we kind of had the opposite experience. We went [00:22:00] out to California and we were in living in San Francisco, believe it or not. And she was teaching in Marin, which is one of the most affluent communities and school systems in the world, frankly.

Christopher: she was again doing special ed in a subseparate classroom and all this. And You know, each of those systems, as a special ed teacher, had very different problems, at the end of the day, it was always about the barriers that might be created or put up for those kids. So she taught me, and kind of working with her and hearing her issues and understanding what was going on in her classroom, again, how these pathways had to be designed.

Christopher: And ultimately, She left the public school system. She got so frustrated with the process by which you, you got you know, into the special ed system and the rights and all that sort of thing. You know, she was told by her administrators, you don’t say this to the parents, don’t tell the parents that.

Christopher: And she’s like, this is crazy. What are we doing here? And you’re telling me I can’t communicate certain things and the rights and responsibilities to the parents? She went across the table, as we like to say, and started advocating for the parents, because she [00:23:00] knew the system and she knew where.

Christopher: The barriers were and she could help kind of help those parents guide the system as well as tutor those kids to find a different opportunity. So why do I tell that whole story? One of the first things we did here in New Hampshire the side of special ed is we said, okay the onus isn’t on the parents to figure the system out The onus is now on the system to explain it to the parents, right?

Christopher: So the benefit of the doubt if you will goes to the parents, not the system, and we’ve really kind of turned a 180 on that. We created a special advocate just for special ed, again, just to help people navigate the system. So for me, that’s all, it’s all technically within the public school system, but it’s really all a function also of school choice.

Christopher: It’s giving the parents more choice opportunities and flexibility within the system. Because some, look, we have awesome schools here. We’re really blessed. We have wonderful, wonderful public schools here. I grew up in the public school system. We have some of the best teachers. It’s great. But if it’s just even for that one or two percent of kids where the traditional four walls aren’t working that means there’s tens of thousands of [00:24:00] kids in my state where it’s not working, right?

Christopher: So that’s, that puts the onus on us. It’s not just about more money in the system and all that. It’s really that redesign. She taught me that path. and again, that led me to even a wider appreciation and understanding of school choice, what could be done. we’ve talked school choice in this state for 40 years and in some form or another, right, really since the late 80s, maybe 30 years, 40 years.

Christopher: And I think it, we always tried the bills, I looked at the bills that had come to the legislature and they were all kind of all or nothing. And I said, okay, we keep trying this and even Republicans, and I’ll call them the folks that are Republican, but we have a lot of Republicans here, even myself at times lean a little more Libertarian, lowercase L, not capital L, lowercase L, Libertarian.

Christopher: And some of the, the Republicans said, well, we don’t want public funds going to parochial schools or Catholic schools or anything like that. Well, for some people that’s their only choice, right? So you know, that’s the only choice that had been developed within the system. So I said, okay. We’re not going to go all or nothing.

Christopher: We’re going to allow those dollars to be spent on Catholic schools or whatever, people want that, but [00:25:00] we’ll keep it to the lowest income, right? Let’s just go up to, I think at the time, I think it was 300 percent of the federal poverty level. Let’s focus it the need where the need is the greatest, which are low income families that definitely can’t afford private school that would qualify for some type assistance.

Christopher: And all we’re really saying is, The local money is the local money, that stays with the local school, but the state money, the state portion of your education, it’s yours. It is not mine, it is not the state’s, it is yours. You paid it, you decide what you want to do with it, and we created a lot of flexibility in how to use those funds.

Christopher: Now we created a good accountability system as well, we don’t want fraud, we don’t want people misusing funds or anything like that, so you do have to come through the system in what we call the quote unquote scholarship program, but that, that is your money to decide what you want to do with. And because we end up, and I got that through by a few votes, and because we focus on those lowest income families, It’s been a monstrous success.

Christopher: So many families came up to me and said, and frankly, look, I’m a Republican. And so many of these families, to be honest, the inner city [00:26:00] families, a lot of low income families families of color, and they said, Gov, one’s ever asked us what we thought of our kids education. We’ve never even been invited to the table to have the discussion.

Christopher: And now you’re telling us, here’s all your choices. And like it, it really blew their mind and it blew my mind, frankly, because I couldn’t believe like, because when you get into the, into those neighborhoods, you talk to those families, you realize the struggle that they’ve been going through and the fact that they weren’t denied choice.

Christopher: They were never offered choice. And that’s such a different concept. Yeah, so it really makes a difference. They were empowered. they weren’t just giving handed something They were empowered and it wasn’t like okay, here’s school choice And now you don’t can you’re sending your kid to that school you send them over here It was tell us what you want.

Christopher: Tell us what your needs are Here’s your different options and holy cow, do these families come out of the woodwork and was just a monstrous success and I think anything successful starts bottom up, right? It starts at the basic need in those [00:27:00] neighborhoods where the need is the most and you grow it from there.

Christopher: And so with that success, that momentum that we’re able to build. Where they were able to then increase, you know, those thresholds, show the success rate, show that it wasn’t bankrupting the system, all the crazy, fear mongering that you get around this type of program and guess what those families started telling for their friends and they tell their friends.

Christopher: So it became kind of a self fulfilling prophecy within those communities because he said, hey, are you part of this program? Look what’s happening to Tyler. Look at the opportunity Jake has or whatever it is. were telling their stories to their fellow community members and it really blossomed from there.

Alisha: Outstanding. Thank you so much. 

Albert: Well, Governor, I want to just pick up and continue talking school choice here and I think it’s important first to point out that, you know, public schools in New Hampshire, like most of the New England states, have been pretty high performing, at least according to the National Assessment of Educational Progress so the nation’s scorecard.

Albert: But really, New Hampshire, as you’ve been kind of discussing, has been unique. Thank you. And pioneering really compared to the rest of the [00:28:00] rest of the new England’s governors, because you’ve supported a wide variety of school choice options to compliment public school system. So, could you talk a bit more about how experimenting with school choice actually helps you drive K 12 education reform in general?

Christopher: Sure. Sure. So, talk about a couple of the, the small, I won’t, I’ll call them the smaller, but I think super impactful program. So we start with a mission. What’s the mission? Is the mission to get every kid to graduate high school? Well, yeah, that’s, at its core. If we’re not focusing on that, okay, fine.

Christopher: The mission is way beyond that. It’s, it’s not, are we going to send every kid to college? That would be the wrong mission. Because how do I know if the door, right, the opportunity of college is right for every kid? That’s not my, that’s not for me to say, only they can say. So the mission is to make sure every kid at the age of 18 when they come out of high school is ready for whatever door they want.

Christopher: And that could be workforce skills, that could be training, certification, that could be overcoming barriers of for those who want to go to four year college or our community college, or More hands on, I [00:29:00] don’t know, or service, right? It could be, do you have the skills and the knowledge base to understand whether military service is right for you?

Christopher: That’s our responsibility as well, because that could be a great path for somebody. But if you never open their eyes to it, never open that door for them, how do they even know? Whether it’s something they want to explore. So one of the, I think really cool things we did, our education commissioner came up with this.

Christopher: We realized it’s super simple math. A year of community college, for example, was about 7, 500. This was back in 2018, 2019. A year of high school, your senior year of high school on average. Cost about 15, 000. So he said wait a minute. Why don’t we take that fourth year of high school your senior year and Split it for those who want to do it and you can go you can do dual and concurrent Enrollment in that senior year and do a fifth year in community college also dual and concurrent enrollment for the exact same dollars It doesn’t cost you anything because we’re just splitting that 15, 000 [00:30:00] doesn’t cost us anything because it’s the same.

Christopher: It’s the same money All we’re doing is saying, hey, to the high school, split some of that money with the community college. And guess what? We, the conservative, fiscally responsible governor of New Hampshire, effectively created free college because you could go and get an associate’s degree for free and it cost nobody nothing.

Christopher: all it cost was the school opening up their eyes at opportunity. For those students who wanted to take advantage of a five year program, but it literally cost no extra dollars. It was just kind of an innovation that we did and so you get that associate’s degree Just by going through the public school system and you’re off and running if if that’s your path The other big piece is everyone talks about is getting certifications in high school That’s school choice when you walk in, you know When I first became governor if you wanted to go to our career and technical schools You And that you could be a certified, you know, you could get your early certifications for plumbing, welding, carpentry, even nursing, all these other programs that we have, but you had to be like a junior or a senior to take those classes.[00:31:00] 

Christopher: Why? Why do only juniors get, sometimes just that one CTE course, Going in and doing automotive shop because that the kid just loves it. That part of the day can be the best part of the day for that kid. And it makes dealing with all the other requirements of high school so much more bearable. So we said, well, let’s get that back to freshman year.

Christopher: So in most of our schools now, you can be a freshman taking those classes, starting on your certification process, and building those skills all the way to the age of 18. And then you have a deeper certification, way more experience and a lot more opportunity to enter the job force. Not at entry level, but at a much higher level.

Christopher: I can kind of keep going down the list, but it’s all about getting them ready at 18. The, the big one, I think, is the most recent one we did. I took this, a lot of these ideas from Governor Asa Hutchinson of Arkansas. Governor’s All right, yeah, there we go. Great, right? We just, we love Asa. and Asa did, really focused on STEM, computer science, and I stole some of his ideas, and he came up and shared some ideas with us.

Christopher: And [00:32:00] I said, look, I’m going to incentivize any teacher, Any public school teacher that wants to get certified as a computer science teacher, I’m not only going to pay for it, but I’ll give you a bonus for it. We’re going to make sure FIRST Robotics, we love robotics programs because they come with all these other soft skills of team building and problem solving.

Christopher: We’re going to make sure that not just every school can get into FIRST Robotics, but we sent one of their basic robots to the equivalent of every classroom, every classroom in the state got an XRP uh, the access to an XRP robotics program if they wanted it. So. Then you kind of match up those types, if you put those two things together, you’re incentivizing teachers, you’re doing it at an early age, and you’re creating coding classes all the way down to the first grade.

Christopher: Because I remind people all the time, coding is a language. Learning a language at the age of 40 is a lot harder than learning it at the age of 4. Why are we wasting the opportunity for these young kids at a younger age that are much more tech savvy to teach them the coding and the language and the skills?

Christopher: You start that in the first, second, third grade. Believe [00:33:00] me, by the age of 18, they could all make 150, 000. Find me a good computer coder and I’ll show you someone that is not in poverty. Think about that. Right? And I can teach computer coding to everybody if they allow us to. So you want to break through a poverty barrier.

Christopher: You want to create opportunity in neighborhoods that never had it before. Technology, technology, technology, coding, right? So with those skills, And pretty much anybody can get a job anywhere. Now, we can have a whole conversation of AI going to do more coding in the future? Believe me, we’re going to need a lot of coders.

Christopher: There’s no question. We’re going to need a lot of folks in technology. Because the more you immerse yourself in that world, the more your eyes get opened up to all the different other aspects of technology and robotics and computers and all this other stuff. That drive world. Whether you’re a farmer, an accountant, or you know, you work for IBM, you’re surrounded by, and going to be surrounded by a very digital world.

Christopher: So, that’s how you, you want to drive folks out of poverty, that’s what you do. You start workforce development thinking all the way back into the [00:34:00] first and second grade. And doing it with our new computer programs and robotics programs here has been a great success. 

Albert: Well, I appreciate that, you know, and then that and that shout out to governor hutchinson I you know, I remember when he was first campaigning here many years ago.

Albert: I mean, I remember him making that coding and the computer science a central piece of his campaign. So appreciate you sharing that. 

Christopher: people don’t appreciate governors are not congressmen senators. We all get along we all share ideas So When something is happening in education in Arizona, you know school choice, Arizona, I don’t read a study about it I pick up the phone.

Christopher: I called Doug Ducey. You know, that’s what I did. Yeah. Yeah Let me get 

Albert: into that because I won’t ask you about that you work a lot with your fellow governors at the National Governors Association. So, talk a bit more about, the nature of that work.

Albert: What are you guys talking about now? Yeah, who are some of these other folks that you, you call on and admire for, their work in K 12 education? 

Christopher: Sure. So a couple of things I can tell you, you know, who’s done great work. I don’t know if we’ve leaned on him for ideas, but he’s leaned on us and he’s done, I think really good stuff is [00:35:00] Tate Reeves in Mississippi.

Christopher: So Mississippi traditionally had very low test scores and results. It was hard to get people trained in the workforce. They had a very low graduation rate don’t have it off the top of my head, but. Some of the data that I saw, the huge turnaround that Tate has brought to Mississippi bringing it from really the bottom of the barrel to something that is being emulated by now other governors, especially governors that are, whether they’re in the Southeast, governors that have income issues with a large portion of their population.

Christopher: Tate’s really become a model for some of those other governors in terms of how to turn things around. He’s done a great job. It wasn’t some, a little bit with DeSantis, but not so much. I leaned on former governor Jeb Bush, Jeb had done a phenomenal job with school choice initiatives and education initiatives in Florida.

Christopher: And I picked up the phone and would talk to him, Ron did as well, but Ron was really making sure that some of the seeds I think that Jeb had planted, Rick Scott, former governor Rick Scott had nurtured and Ron [00:36:00] was really continuing them in a variety of different areas. Give me 30 seconds here. You know, we’re working with some of the other governors like, you know, Idaho is considering doing some school choice stuff is kind of teetering here and there.

Christopher: I know they’re gonna make a strong push. I’ve talked to Brad Little about it a lot, Hochul, actually, in New York, who’s a Democrat. We disagree on a lot, of course. But she and I were talking about some of the things that had been going on in New York City. I don’t think they really translated to some of the stuff happening up here.

Christopher: you know, ’cause it was such a, a large city, but there were certain initiatives and not just around divest and, and some of those other really high achieving schools in the greater Newark York area, but there were some initiatives that, that folks were looking at in terms of how to really get the most out of inner city learning, which is you just different.

Christopher: You have to understand the barriers in the inner city are very different than in rural areas. In rural areas, the batteries are transportation. one of the biggest barriers to choice is always transportation. Mm-Hmm. , if you live 50 miles away, it’s really hard to say, well, I guess that’s going to be a viable choice for us.

Christopher: Or [00:37:00] if that student doesn’t have access to transportation or a bus system. and buses are harder and harder to come by. People aren’t getting their CDL licenses. We’re trying to encourage that. I know it sounds, well, what’s the, why are we talking about school buses and CDL license for school choice?

Christopher: Believe me, you don’t have those drivers. You don’t have the system, that’s the infrastructure of the system. The federal government has made it really difficult or I should say much more difficult to get your cdl licenses that’s been a bit of a problem So we’re trying to encourage folks to make sure we have that infrastructure because without it so it’s not just the classroom Too many folks Focus on school choice on just the funding or with a stem program.

Christopher: Where’s the money? A lot of times these the some of the best stem programs might they maybe they’re at Maybe a school is starting out their stem program and it’s an after school program eventually you want it to grow into something in the middle of the day, but For a while, sometimes it could be an after school program.

Christopher: Again, you don’t have, you don’t have transportation, those kids can’t participate in that. So, you kind of, again, as an [00:38:00] engineer, you got to look at the whole global system and understand, you know, of course you need to just, you know, get through the barrier of the legislature. Get through those initial funding barriers.

Christopher: But if you don’t have the other pieces to make it operational, it ain’t going to work. Well, you know, 

Albert: speaking of making it work I’m going to talk about the, the need to build political support for school choice and these reforms. So, I mean, you’ve talked at length already about New Hampshire as a state that’s really known for its deep commitment to local self government, decentralized state policymaking.

Albert: And uh, Talk about the importance of empowering parents and local communities build political support for school choice and education reform. 

Christopher: Well, that’s the only political support that matters is from the parent. I mean, we prove that. let’s take a step back, not to be a little too negative and relive some nightmares that we saw across the country, but You know, when you saw the teachers union really step up over the pandemic, and it actually created an amazing opportunity because I don’t mind telling you, the teachers union nationally was an absolute joke, an absolute [00:39:00] barrier, very vocal about not working in the kid’s interest.

Christopher: They didn’t care about the kids. And they were vocal about that. They didn’t care about it. They said, that’s not our aim. It was all about shutting down schools and getting, getting teacher more quote unquote time off and all that and what it did is it created. A small revolution, a political block, if you will, of parents that were not organized but very keen on the initiative of just getting their kids back to school in the best quality of education.

Christopher: And so all across the country, school choice and outside the traditional four walls of the public classrooms, those initiatives really spurned up. the great example was Glenn. the guy won on parents matter, two words, parents matter, it was based around education, but it really said so much more.

Christopher: It said you as an individual matter, what you say, what, is important to you, what your priorities are matter, not the political elites, not the establishment, not the traditional system of who we listen to at the state house, you as an individual. Now, [00:40:00] I joked with Glenn, he’s a great governor. I said, my God, Glenn, it’s about time you actually said what the state of New Hampshire has been doing, actually been doing for the last 250 years, because we, have always had that, right?

Christopher: Local control. We don’t have state contracts for teachers. We don’t have union issues statewide. Every single town designs, not even county, town by town, negotiates their own contracts with their own school boards, with their own unions, and all that kind of stuff. And the unions are fine, but we keep it where it needs to be in this state, localized.

Christopher: So if there’s a problem, the parents and the teachers are really working it out with the administration. And it minimizes the outside negative political influences that have traditionally come in and been the stalwarts to school choice. and I just think the pandemic was a time when, everybody stood up and said, said, okay, enough is enough.

Christopher: and the teacher’s union has become an afterthought at this point. it’s a bit of a joke in terms of a political power. The political power now rests back in where it exactly belongs with the parents. And if you want to stand up and be vocal and ask for some [00:41:00] additional services, help and opportunities.

Christopher: school districts, will ignore you at their own peril. and our school choice initiative is, the best example of that, because it was those folks in the neighborhoods that had never been empowered like that, that felt empowered, wanted to be empowered. Not just part of their solution, but part of their neighbor’s solution.

Christopher: They wanted to help their neighbors. They wanted to help the rest of the people in their community know about these programs, understand what was being offered, how to engage with it, how to operationalize it for themselves. So that was really been terrific. And, and when you have that opportunity, you don’t just kind of watch from the sidelines, right?

Christopher: When you got a little bit of a spark there, you throw gasoline on it. And that’s kind of what we did. We really empower them as strong as we could to become the political voice for those who. who just didn’t have the same opportunities. 

Albert: All right, thanks for that. Well, last question, Governor. look, we all know according to state constitutions, federal law, and just the way things are, K 12 education is largely the purview of state and local governments And as you just articulated, it really ought to much of it ought to be in the hands of parents and cities and towns. [00:42:00] So, are, top educational leadership lessons from New Hampshire that other states could lean on you want other states hear? 

Christopher: Sure, like, I mean, as we’ve been talking about, keep it local, local, local, local, that’s where the communication happens, that’s where you can create the most flexibility, you get the most efficiencies you know, it’s easy to say, well, we’ll just streamline everything from the top, no, it doesn’t work, you know, we tried the whole no trial left behind stuff, and everyone’s going to take the same test, and we tried this, Common core nonsense, which was, you know, one of the reasons I ran for governor is because my, oldest son in the time was in the fourth grade.

Christopher: And I’m a math guy and I’m looking at his math and I’m trying to figure this common core garbage out. And I’m like, this It did don’t make no sense. As, as Asa said to me in his Arkansas accent, but, and it really didn’t. And so as a dad, I said, this, can be better. This has to be better.

Christopher: So that’s one of the main reasons I ended up running for office. But if you number one lesson, keep it local. Number two, don’t worry about the politics. The politics can take care of themselves when you [00:43:00] keep it local. You create those political constituencies, which are very powerful. You know, as much as anyone in Washington, D.

Christopher: C. is listening, the Federal Department of Education it creates more problems than, than it doesn’t. I really believe that. I’m a huge believer in block grants. I’m a huge believer in, I don’t know how to run the schools in Massachusetts, And I might disagree with the governor, Massachusetts has done a lot of political things, but I do believe that she’s going to have the inputs that are right for her state a lot better than anybody else, especially Washington, D.

Christopher: C. So allowing states to have that kind of flexibility is so critical, right? you know, I don’t know if we’ll get there in the next few years. I think that the new president maybe. Leaning that way a little more than, than he had in the past in terms of what to do with the Fed. But, my whole point is, keeping that piece local, and keeping some accountability.

Christopher: You gotta have, still have a metrics and a way to measure your success. If you can’t measure your success, That’s not a success. It’s really not. You got to still have some sort of measurement tool there to make sure that kids aren’t falling through the cracks in the system is, is really delivering the results that [00:44:00] you want, because chances are it won’t.

Christopher: In the beginning, a new systems are always going to be a little clunky, and that’s okay. But if you’re measuring those results, you’re gonna be able to pinpoint those barriers and move them. And you can do that at a localized level, way more than the state level. So look, I’m, the governor, I’m the CEO of the state, I’m from the government, and I’m here to tell you, it ain’t about us.

Christopher: It’s not, it is not, we are not here to solve your problems. It is not about us. all we are really fundamentally here to do is to hear what the problems are, create those doors of opportunity, and allow you to go through the doors as best fits the needs of your community. You and your family and your kids and if you let everybody do that.

Christopher: It’s a rising tide floats all boats There’s no question about that creates a little more competition with a hell of a lot better results. 

Albert: Well governor Thanks again for your time for being on the show. We really appreciate it 

Christopher: and all your work You bet. Thank you guys. This is a lot of fun.

Christopher: Anything else you need. Just let me know. 

Alisha: We’ll do. Thank you very much [00:45:00] Well Albert. That was a great interview. He’s a fascinating gentleman 

Albert: Yeah, yeah, no, I enjoyed listening to him and I had the chance to hear him speak in person once when I was a postdoc Harvard at it for a conference. So never disappointed me. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. And Alicia, we have the tweet of the week as well to talk about before we sign off.

Albert: This one’s from Andy Rotherham. It’s an edu want piece think might be of interest to folks. I promise is the last thing we’ll talk about that’s related to the election. I think he’s just giving a nice digest of what are the takeaways really from last week?

Albert: And so, if folks want to into some thinking and analysis of that, check out that tweet. Yes, lots to 

Alisha: dive in there as always albert. It was great to hang out with you today. Great guests. Great show. Thanks for uh, Being here. [00:46:00] 

Albert: Yeah. Yeah. No pleasure. Pleasure to run the show with you at least 

Alisha: as always Always and so our next episode join us to hear professor carl rollison Who is the professor of journalism at baruch college and author of the award winning two volume biography?

Alisha: The life of william faulkner look forward to seeing you next week