Arizona's Katherine Haley on School Choice, Fed Ed, & State-led Reform

The Learning Curve Katherine Haley

[00:00:00] Albert Cheng: Well, hey everybody. Happy New Year and welcome to another new episode of The Learning Curve podcast, and another full year of lots of new episodes. So I wanna welcome you. I’m Albert Cheng, one of the co-hosts on this show, and I’m joined with Alisha Searcy, the other regular co-host. Alisha, happy New year.

[00:00:18] Welcome back. Looking forward to another great year.

[00:00:21] Alisha Searcy: Yes, happy New Year and welcome back to you as well. And hello to our listeners. It’s, I’ve missed you guys, so I’m glad to be back.

[00:00:31] Albert Cheng: Well, you’re right Alisha. It’s great to be back and I’m looking forward to a whole series of wonderful guests and shows.

[00:00:37] Starting with the one we have today. We’re gonna have Katherine Haley, who is the founder and partner of the Oak Rose Group. She’s also currently the president of the Arizona State Board of Education. So looking forward to that. But before we get there, we need to talk some education news. Alisha, why don’t we start with you?

[00:00:56] What did you find to kick off this new year?

[00:00:59] Alisha Searcy: Yes, and there’s so much that has happened, but I always like to root everything we do in students, right, in education. And so I pulled this story from the OPB. Which is from the state of Oregon. The article is Key Takeaways from a Survey of 180,000 Oregon students.

[00:01:21] I love this because obviously when we talk about education, we al always have to think about the end user. Who is this about? What are we doing this for? Certainly when I get up and do my work every day with Center for Strong Public Schools, it’s about young people and so I love that they surveyed. Lots of kids in Oregon.

[00:01:40] There were five takeaways from the survey that I wanted to mention very quickly. Number one, they acknowledge that the results are not representative of all the students. It talks about how at the elementary level there were 60 to 64% of the students represented middle school, about half. But get this, Albert of the high schoolers, they have the lowest participation rate of 27 to 32%.

[00:02:05] So that’s really interesting and I’m kind of disappointed because I think high schoolers would have a lot more to say. Sure, yeah. About their school experience. But I think all of these kinds of surveys, as they say, out of the mouths of babes, you can really inform our practices. And so a couple of other things that I thought were really interesting.

[00:02:25] The second highlight of the survey, if you will, is that students say they still don’t see themselves reflected in class material. This one was quite interesting to me. It talks about how over half of the student surveys said that their readings, assignments, and tests never or rarely include people who look like them or their families.

[00:02:44] And that was across grades, but a higher percentage of elementary and middle schoolers that said they didn’t have representational class materials. So I thought that was obviously very important when we talk about, I think, the relevance of education and why kids wanna come to school. How you make it more interesting.

[00:03:03] I think acknowledging that kids want to see materials that are a reflection of them, of their life, of their culture, right, of their background. I know when I’m reading something right. As scholarly as I might be. I’m more interested in the things that I’m connected to, you know, whether it’s a hobby or a travel or whatever it is.

[00:03:23] And so really important and informative, I think, for all of us to think about materials that we’re giving to kids. Number three, some students also report though that they’re learning a lot about Native Americans and tribes in Oregon, which I also think was very. Telling and interesting given the region of the country.

[00:03:40] Right? And so that was also very important. So clearly there’s an emphasis there, but perhaps not on some of the other groups that are represented in the education system. Number four is that students say they feel welcome at school, but they don’t necessarily like it. Yeah. So again, or they don’t like school, I’m sure they like being welcome.

[00:04:00] Right? Exactly. So that’s important that they feel welcome. Right? I think a part of school safety is not just the physical safety, but do they feel welcome whoever they are, whatever background they have, but to your point, do they like it? We need to be asking ourselves, what do we need to do? To make it so that kids actually like coming to school.

[00:04:20] And I think it goes back to like some of those materials. I would argue that taking cell phones out and not using them to enhance education might be a contributor of of that, but we’re not gonna go there today. And then also the last thing that I’ll mention that I thought was pretty cool is that most of the high school students are considering a four year college.

[00:04:40] I am no longer one of those people who believes that you have to have a college degree, but I believe very strongly that it helps so much. Right? Mm-hmm. In terms of your trajectory and your options, I thought that was also very important that the majority of the students are considering a four year college, so kudos to the state of Oregon for that survey.

[00:04:57] I know all states do some level of a survey as required, I guess, previously by the federal government, but I think it’s just important that we listen to the voices of young people and try to make improvements accordingly.

[00:05:09] Albert Cheng: And you know, we’ll link to that news article and there’s a link on that article to the actual full survey.

[00:05:15] And so there’s lots of other bits of information that one can find there. So check that out. Thanks for sharing that, Alisha. Sure. Well, you know, one headline that caught my eye, I mean, not that we should be suckers for headlines. You know, these days we’re always, there’s no shortage of bait and all that stuff, but this one did catch my eye.

[00:05:32] It’s on teacher salaries. Teacher salaries, fall. Despite dramatic jumps in per people spending, and it’s written by Paul Peterson at Harvard University. And so, you know, the headline kind of tells the top line finding essentially salaries have dropped in terms of adjusted dollars over the past couple decades.

[00:05:50] And Paul in the audience goes on to argue, well, what’s taking its place? You know, you might wonder if it’s falling in spite of increasing spending. Where’s all the new money going or where’s all that money going? And you know, his argument as he points out in the data is, is. An increasing share being spent on non-teaching staff, and then an increasing share of being spent on supporting teacher pension systems, which aren’t in great shape in, in a lot of states.

[00:06:18] And so, you know, I don’t wanna get into where we should be spending money and which pot, or which in what ways should we be spending money to improve student outcomes? But I think it is important to at least kind of. Describe the world so that we can then dig into whether we should make changes. I remember sitting at a, a recent conference and seeing a paper about teacher pension systems, and I don’t know that we talk about this issue enough.

[00:06:45] I know we do talk about it. We talk about the solvency of these things, but we don’t really talk about it in terms of whether they’re taking away from. You know, the quality of education that, that we can give to students. And so in some sense, an increasing share of per pupil spending is being used to fund pension systems.

[00:07:06] Now, again, you know, we do want to give teachers what we promise them. I, I think that’s, that’s fair. But we also have to kind of face. These trade-offs and at some point I, I don’t know, we’re gonna have to have some of these, these more honest and frank discussions about, you know, what’s gonna give unless we can increase spending all the more.

[00:07:24] So I guess I wanna flag this article, not to make any commentary about where the money should be going, but we do need to have a good sense of where the money is going. I think, you know, to have some of these more difficult. And perhaps necessary conversation. So yeah. Anyway, take a look at that article. I dunno if you have immediate thoughts on this, Alisha, I’m not gonna make you weigh in on that.

[00:07:44] Of course I do. Of course you do. Well, feel free to weigh in before we get to our guests here if you’d like.

[00:07:49] Alisha Searcy: Yeah. I’ll just say briefly, right, and I say this as a former superintendent, that completely changed the way we compensated teachers. Part of the reason that. I think the profession of teaching is not where it needs to be in terms of the level of respect.

[00:08:03] It’s because we don’t pay teachers enough. And so it is sad actually to see this article and know that it’s actually declined over the last decade, especially when you’ve watched districts across the state actually raise teacher pay. Mm-hmm. But when you account for, you know, inflation and expenses and all of that, they’re basically not seeing that.

[00:08:22] And so it’s a problem. You expect teachers to do this really, really hard job. And then not compensate them for it. And so it’s a real problem. Last thing I’ll mention too, I thought was interesting. I guess it’s different in different states, but to include things like pension as a part of the per pupil funding, I think is a little bit misleading.

[00:08:41] Because if you see states, I think it was New York or New Jersey, where it’s like $32,000 per child, it makes you think that $32,000 per child is actually going to an individual student and their education. But it’s not because it’s covering pension, you know, transportation, all the other things. And so I wish we knew the real number of what we were actually spending, how much it actually cost to educate a child.

[00:09:03] Mm-hmm. And then of course, to make sure that we are. Appropriately paying teachers a base salary and then talk about all the other things in terms of effectiveness and all of that. Yeah. Um, I think you make some great points about, you know, I don’t think we need to tell districts how to spend their money, you know, by the dollar, but we do need to have conversations about funding and education for sure.

[00:09:24] Albert Cheng: Yeah. We’re gonna get to our guests here, Katherine Haley on the other side of this break, so stay tuned.

[00:09:42] Katherine Haley is the founder and partner of the Oak Rose Group and has more than 20 years of experience in public policy and philanthropy. Previously, she served as the Vice President of Programs and senior Director of K 12 programs at the Philanthropy Roundtable. Katherine spent 13 years working for several members of the US House of Representatives and US Senate, where she served for seven years as the chief policy advisor on education, workforce, and other issues to former Speaker of the House, John Vayner.

[00:10:11] She was instrumental in the successful reauthorization of the DC Opportunity Scholarship Program. In 2022, Katherine was appointed by Governor Doug Ducey to the Arizona State Board of Education, elected vice president in 2023, and president of the Arizona State Board of Education in 2025. Haley also serves on the boards of 50 Can Love Your School.

[00:10:35] The Trinity Forum is a member of American Enterprise Institute’s Leadership Network and Conservative Education Reform Network. A member of the Pahara Institute’s 44th Leadership cohort and is an active supporter of Opportunity International and International Justice Mission. She received her bachelor’s degree in psychology from Duke University and her master’s degree in government from Johns Hopkins University.

[00:11:02] Katherine, welcome to the show.

[00:11:05] Katherine Haley: Well, thank you guys, Albert and Alisha. I’m so grateful to join you today on the Learning Curve Podcast. It’s a huge honor.

[00:11:11] Albert Cheng: You know, our listeners got to know you a little bit based on your bio, but I thought I’d ask you a little bit more. I mean, look, you’ve had a, a accomplished career in K 12 education, public policymaking, both in DC and now in Arizona.

[00:11:25] Why don’t you tell our listeners about some of your other backgrounds? What about your own formative educational experiences and you know, is there some educational philosophy that’s informed your work and career?

[00:11:36] Katherine Haley: Great question, Albert. Just as a quick context sitting, I was pre-med in college and really didn’t have an intent to go into public policy or philanthropy, or frankly even work in education.

[00:11:49] It was while I was applying to medical school. I interned on Capitol Hill and just absolutely loved it and was hooked. What has formed me and the way I look at education and why I even care about the work that I am able to do is that my parents had the means to be able to find tutors or enhance my educational experience to deepen my understanding.

[00:12:14] One, when I was really curious, but two, also when. I really struggled in a particular subject, and as I worked for different members of Congress who cared a lot about education and worked on the committees of jurisdiction, primarily the House Education and Workforce Committee, I was like, gosh, you know, being able to advance a policy that allows other kids that might not have the experience that I had.

[00:12:39] Be able to take advantage of all the different options, really shaped why I care about school choice and accountability and ensuring that families have those additional choices. So I really sort of really embrace a pluralistic system that allows students to thrive in the best place that suits his or her learning needs.

[00:13:01] So that’s a little bit about me and why I get to do what I do and why I care so much.

[00:13:07] Albert Cheng: Well, thanks for saying that. And, and speaking of seeing students thrive, let’s talk about the Oak Rose Group. This is something you founded in 2021, and I mean, is it fair to say it’s, it’s a independent strategy consulting firm focused on human flourishing?

[00:13:22] Yeah. Could you talk more about Oak Rose, it’s mission, it’s work, and how does it help support K 12 education reform, both in Arizona and the larger us?

[00:13:33] Katherine Haley: I started Oak Grove’s Group after about 20 years in Washington DC I had moved home to Arizona and wanted to combine the experiences that I had had in convening, connecting creative problem solving and working with philanthropy, nonprofits, and policy organizations.

[00:13:51] And so our mission as I just sort of. Stated is to work with philanthropy, nonprofit policy organizations to break down barriers to opportunity. We do it through convenings. We manage working groups, we facilitate interesting gatherings in order to gain deeper understanding for our clients. We facilitate connections, we help mobilize philanthropy.

[00:14:14] And the last area is we create new things. An example of the creating new things, it’s slightly outside of the traditional K 12, but we help launch an organization called Chance Sports in Colorado, and it’s now expanding to other states, and that organization provides scholarships to low income and working class athletes that are participating in competitive sports As.

[00:14:37] Both you and Alisha probably know competitive sports for kids is not an inexpensive endeavor. You know, things like athletic competition fees or sport equipment or additional training or travel, it really adds up. And for. Elite athletes, it becomes a real barrier for them to participate and therefore might even be a barrier to pursue higher education.

[00:15:00] Hmm.

[00:15:01] Katherine Haley: And then some other things, if you don’t mind. I get really excited about some of the work we do. We’ve had an opportunity for the last several years to work with the Texas Catholic Conference of Bishops to create a growth fund to seed scale and replicate high quality Catholic schools. Hmm. We just launched it this earlier in 2025.

[00:15:20] We were able to help identify a board and help identify a new CEO. And the timing is really incredible because this year, Texas’s education freedom accounts take effect and there’s a real demand and now is an opportunity to create more seats for families to exercise that choice, that particularly one a Catholic education.

[00:15:41] And then my last. Like I just have to say is we’ve had an opportunity to work with building Hope, which is known for its work in the charter school facility financing space. We partnered with them in 25 to help launch a micro loan pilot for micro schools. The initial thought was micro schools and education entrepreneurs, they just need capital.

[00:16:02] That’s all they need. Mm-hmm. What they really needed actually was some business support and how do you run a business? How do you develop a balance sheet? How do you understand space requirements and zoning requirements? Some states like Arizona have really, really permissive environments that you can start a school, in essence, in a strip mall, and that you can.

[00:16:26] Open up meeting space within, say, a church or whatnot. Other states are a little bit more constrictive, and so it makes it more difficult for an education entrepreneur to launch an initiative. So it’s been really fun, specifically in Arizona. We’ve worked with the Greater Phoenix Chamber of Commerce on their Elevate at AZ initiative.

[00:16:49] This was helping to codify some of the initiatives and learnings that they had with businesses, partnering with local schools to provide real hands-on learning experience. We helped the Arizona Western College, which is one of our community college networks in the southwest part of our state, really reimagined workforce training and learning, and helped them launch, which is now known as the entrepreneurial college, which is.

[00:17:14] Be able to come in, take advantage of some flexibility with the Higher Learning Commission accreditation, and be able to take some short-term classes, get that credential, get out to work, have that really positive, meaningful experience that lets them say, gosh, okay, I had a positive experience with education.

[00:17:34] I had this credential. I wanna stack it on additional. Credentials and eventually, maybe I’ll even earn my associate’s degree. And it was really fun to be able to engage the business community, help them understand that a WC Arizona Western College is that strategic partner that will help. Individuals in their community gain the skills needed to meet those in demand jobs.

[00:17:58] So those are some things I could go on and on about the clients that we get to serve. It’s a real honor to partner with the people that we work with across the country.

[00:18:08] Albert Cheng: It’s quite inspiring. You know, I mean, I, it’s often said policy on one hand can help create conditions for opportunity. Flourishing, but it’s really up to the rest of us actually everybody else, to build the institutions and the the ecosystem to make it possible.

[00:18:22] And it sounds like Oak Rose is supporting that work. Yeah. Let’s get to the other side though. Policy. ’cause in addition to being a part of Oak Rose, you serve as the presidents of the Arizona State Board of Education. So could you talk about your work on the board and what are some of the major accomplishments, challenges, as well as barriers to school reform?

[00:18:43] Katherine Haley: Thanks for your question. I just wanna go back to your commentary, Albert, on, you know, the role of civil society and helping to catalyze those changes. When I worked on Capitol Hill for many years, I always, I wondered, you know, is policy even necessary? Is it a leader? Is it a laggard? Can things happen without it?

[00:19:03] And when I will get to this later, but when I worked in philanthropy, was able to work with organizations that were able to catalyze that change. It has been truly an honor to be able to partner with policy organizations, funders, and these nonprofits. That are those meaningful institutions, those little platoons, so to speak, that are able to bring to life these great ideas.

[00:19:27] And that often is the great challenge is you pass a policy and then you’re like, okay, we did it. Yeah. Now everyone come. Well, sometimes you need like a, I’ve seen in Arizona, you know, you need those intermediary organizations like the parent navigators that help families navigate their options. That gets me to the, the question you asked about our role on the state board.

[00:19:52] The Arizona State Board of Education is really the regulatory body of the state as it relates to education and some workforce related programs. We establish and set the state’s accountability system. We help procure the state assessment. We determine what are the graduation requirements and career and technical education and adult education.

[00:20:14] We provide oversight of the state’s empowerment scholarship account program. We have, as of yesterday, 99,413 students. There’s probably been a few that have been added since yesterday, but we get a a roll call update every Monday, so it’s pretty exciting. But we also overs. C Federal grants grant applications that the department is applying for.

[00:20:37] We oversee the uniform financial records, so all the financials of our school districts. And last year, this time, we were actually voting to take over a school district that had about $20 million in arrears. And we, I mean, we can talk later about COVID and COVID funding and how that has impacted districts, but we have a pretty broad swath of requirements.

[00:21:00] That are under our jurisdiction. Oh, teacher prep programs as well as educator discipline. I would say that just ask some of our sort of excited. Successes. I would say one of my slight disappointments is since 2020 when I joined the board, we had actually a real positive coming out of that initial pandemic is our fourth graders actually held the same from the 2019, so we were one of the few states that were able to, our fourth grade reading scores stayed constant.

[00:21:31] Unfortunately, sitting there, we have continued to take a bit of a nosedive. Only about a third of our fourth graders are proficient at reading. But what I’ve learned in that disappointment is as we talked a few minutes ago, it’s great to pass a policy, but then you have to provide the tools and the means to be able to go and do that implementation.

[00:21:51] And it might be a big stick, it might be a carrot, it might be a variety of things. Arizona passed a reading law in 2010. It was implemented in 2013 that said, we’re gonna test kids starting kindergarten through third grade. We’re gonna make sure that they’re proficient, and if they’re not, they’ll have to be held back.

[00:22:09] Well, it wasn’t until 2021. This is before I served on the board, that the legislature required educators to be trained in the science of reading. That doesn’t take fully effect until this year. So our schools of education are now required to teach students in the science of reading. This is a crucial stick, but it, we had to create sort of a long runway for those educators that are already credentialed and in our classrooms and have the responsibility of teaching literacy to K through five.

[00:22:41] They have to receive an endorsement by 2028, and that was quite a bit of negotiation from my under. Standing of, in some ways that’s sort of a challenge, but maybe an opportunity, ’cause you need the buy-in, is that sometimes you have to make decisions by committee. You have to engage constituents and key stakeholders to make those decisions.

[00:23:01] ’cause ultimately they’re the implementers. And if they are h. Still, well, that can be a challenge. So I think one of the things in 2024, the state board arranged to have two subcommittees. One was on K through three literacy and some of the activities that we’re doing, and really trying to hold the department to account and really educate legislators.

[00:23:24] One, don’t roll back. The kindergarten readiness assessment, don’t roll back These assessments and individuals are always ready to roll things back, right? They’re like, oh, we don’t see progress. And it’s like, right, we don’t see progress ’cause we’re only now implementing the policy with Fidelity. The second is we were able to.

[00:23:41] Draw attention to K through three literacy of what things are working, and also looking to states like those that are in the southern surge states like Mississippi and Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee. I think Georgia’s made some progress in this area of just like of. Gosh, we really need to have an like really strong literacy instruction and support.

[00:24:03] And so we are now doing that and we point to the southern states, particularly in the Sunbelt, say like, we need to be more like them. And so that is exciting. Areas where, right. I think we have opportunity and there’s been some tension a little bit with the department is around special education. There are things like how are.

[00:24:21] State is interpreting existing law. We had a special education subcommittee and I think there’s a real opportunity, especially since the legislature advanced additional policy around dyslexia and dyslexia screening. I think all of that is really, really positive, but we have to see it implemented and that is something that we, at the state board, we’re hopeful to hold individuals accountable.

[00:24:44] The last, I would say, or the last two things that I’m proud of and we’re sort of in the cusp of is one, we oversaw the successful rollout of the universal ESA. I would say there were some certain bumps in the road around the administration of it from the Department of Education, but we were able to listen to families and really help the department take family concern and implement that into their handbook and some other guidance that they provide families.

[00:25:11] So we went from 12,000 students in the fall of 2022 to a hundred thousand, and that’s a pretty significant growth. And then the last is, this is something that I’m really committed to right now, is that we are in the process of a reevaluating our state accountability system. So how much weight is given to growth, how much weight is given to proficiency, as well as other criteria that make up our A through F letter grades.

[00:25:36] Albert Cheng: Wow. I mean that’s, uh, there’s a lot going on. Um, well let me ask you. Sorry about

[00:25:40] that. Yeah, no, we do have a lot going on. Mean look, this is

[00:25:43] Albert Cheng: great. I mean, it’s great for our listeners to get this behind the scenes glimpse. Lemme ask you a slightly challenging question. We’ve just talked about lots of these reform initiatives, science of reading, some accountability.

[00:25:54] I talked about ESAs and school choice more generally and kind of yet maybe the best way, in spite of, if I might say that in spite of all that. And you’ve alluded to this point a bit, you know, Arizona’s NAP scores, you know, they’re not knocking outta the park, they’re a little bit below the national average and kind of have been, I mean, what explains that?

[00:26:13] What are the academic challenges? Uh, is it the quality of the standards in tests? Is it how you hold charter schools and private schools accountable? How do you think about, I guess, that issue?

[00:26:25] Katherine Haley: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think some would say we need to do more, a lot more spending. If you look at omics and the Ed genomics lab.

[00:26:33] Yeah, that’s right. They have done some great work on looking at our sort of investment over time, and I think they would say the same. You know, we are, we have 1.1 million public school students. We spend about nine point. $9 billion, at least from a state perspective in the basic state aid. And when you look at our spending over the last decade, we’ve increased about 57%.

[00:26:57] And yet you look at our proficiency scores and reading and math, and it’s a pretty. Long dip down, there’s a, a pretty wide gap. And that unfortunately is, I would say that is unfortunate. I think some would say we just need to spend more. Some of our organizations here in Arizona, the Common Sense Institute would say we actually need to prioritize where we spend our funds.

[00:27:19] You know, is it on central office and back office support, or is it. On the educators and the instructional support that they need in order to be highly effective. I would say maybe, probably we need to do a better job, or districts need to do a better job of prioritizing how they use their resources.

[00:27:37] That is something I’m sort of like, I’m really noodling on in our more recent effort around literacy, where individuals have. Received letters, training on the signs of reading those institutions have, those districts, I should say, have really both charter and traditional public are starting to see some real progress in the way they instruct their students.

[00:28:00] So I think that’s not sort of a, I can’t. Wipe away sort of where things are. But I do think that there is this issue of how our educators have been prepared and perhaps the background that they have had. You know, did they have a whole language background? Is it kids? Just guess and look at site and let’s do three queuing, and then perhaps maybe you’ll get there.

[00:28:22] Or is it you have the foundations of reading to be able to ensure that. The educators know the different reading types and how they can support their students. As far as private choice, our charter schools are, you know, held to the same academic standards and have to take the same assessment as traditional public schools.

[00:28:42] We do not require a private school assessment for those families that are participating in our ESA or tax credit scholarship programs. If anything, the accountability there is. It’s a pretty dynamic system. We have families that come into the private system using ESA, using tax credits, and then they go back into the traditional public.

[00:29:03] So I think the accountability there is that when families feel like the private system is doing well for their children, they engage it and when not, they go back into the public system.

[00:29:15] Alisha Searcy: That’s really interesting. Thank you, Katherine, for all of your perspective that you’ve given so far. It’s very interesting to me, first of all, your breadth of experience, but you’re in a very unique position now in terms of being the president of the State board of Education, and so I think a lot of us.

[00:29:35] Would say that sometimes it’s challenging to work with the State Department of Education in different states, you know, across the country. Sometimes it is, sometimes it’s not, and sometimes difficult to hold agencies accountable or get them to reform. And so given your experiences. Prior to serving as the president.

[00:29:57] Now being the president, can you talk about the policymaking relationship between the board, the Department of Education, Arizona, as well as how the board and DOE interact with the governor and the legislature on law and policymaking for results?

[00:30:13] Katherine Haley: Thank you, Alisha. Those are great questions. And Arizona in some ways is different than other states, and I don’t know that I fully appreciated Arizona’s difference until I sort of had this opportunity to serve on the state board.

[00:30:27] So. Quick for our listeners, some background. Arizona elects its superintendent. Other states have appointed superintendents or commissioners. Others have their state board, which is appointed by, say, the governor, but then they hire the superintendent. Our situation is we have an elected superintendent and you know, could be, currently it’s a Republican and other.

[00:30:53] Times it’s been a Democrat. Our governor appoints kit members to the state board, and then they’re able to serve a year if they’re not confirmed otherwise, they have to be confirmed by the state Senate. A number of us currently have exceeded our terms, our confirmed terms, and we are grateful that we continue to get to serve in our current capacity.

[00:31:17] So we do have this really interesting relationship between the governor. The Department of Education and the legislature. I would say the way the relationship works is the superintendent who is elected, serves as a member of the board, but is not the chair of the board. We are an independent body and we take a lot of advice and counsel from the department, particularly around how programs are implemented, but then as those programs are being rolled out, the board.

[00:31:49] Like does come and and engage with the department and either provides oversight, asks lots of questions, sends letters, and in some instances will either approve or disapprove policies that the department is carrying forward. Or we will provide new guidance or new regulation that tells them what they need to do.

[00:32:12] I’ll give you a couple of examples with the Carl D. Perkins Plan. This is a federal grant around career and technical education. In 2024, the department came to us, the state board and said, here we go. We’ve got our new policy. This is what we intend to do. And after several. Months of negotiation, public negotiation.

[00:32:33] We actually voted it down. We said, no, we’re not going to accept your grant application. It is not meeting our expectations of what we hope for the department and serving our students in CTE and adult ed. And so the department, we tasked them with some pretty interesting expectations throughout 24 and 25, and they came back to the board.

[00:32:55] Tabled it. We asked them to go do more. Eventually the board did approve the plan, but with some reservation because we didn’t feel that it had really sought business. Industry took advantage of the existing policy and we’re going to move forward in the direction. So that’s, I think, really interesting.

[00:33:14] Another example is our ESA handbook. This has actually been often one of our most contentious issues under both Democrat and Republican. The Handbook for Family serves as sort of the guidance on how they make purchases, whether it’s using it for tuition or purchasing supplemental materials or various curricular services, and there’s often great back and forth between the board and the department on how to ensure that families feedback as well as the departments.

[00:33:44] Actions are really ensuring that we’re protecting the public good of these resources. So I think on the last part of how we engage with the legislature. We provide a lot of advice as policy is going forward. Sometimes legislators are trying to do something that already actually exists in the statute or in Regulat.

[00:34:05] No, I don’t believe that.

[00:34:06] Alisha Searcy: I’m just kidding.

[00:34:07] Katherine Haley: I know, I know. And so sometimes we’ll provide some guidance of like, oh, actually in title such and such, subsection da da, da, da. Like. This is what this actually does and this is how we’re actually implementing it. And sometimes it’s, they’re like, oh, we didn’t realize.

[00:34:21] And so sometimes we’re able to use that as an opportunity to inform better policy and maybe we need to codify some new things. Otherwise, sometimes the bill just withers on the vine, so to speak. So that’s how we interact. I think on this particular issue around our state accountability system, this is a huge priority of.

[00:34:42] Boards and we are working closely with the department to make sure that our modeling is correct, and also drawing deep insight from some of our advisory committees that we have because we do, as Albert asked earlier, we do need to raise the bar and we need to ensure that our kids really understand what proficiency means and that they had the skills to become lifelong learners.

[00:35:07] Excellent, excellent.

[00:35:08] Alisha Searcy: You gave such thorough answers, so I appreciate that. And I was teasing about the legislator part. I’m a former legislator and so I remember many times talking to our department of education and hearing the things that we tried to do were already there, et cetera. So I appreciate that.

[00:35:23] And it sounds, frankly like you guys are doing a really good job of working closely together. On behalf of kids, so kudos to Arizona. That’s really good. Well, thank you. We try. Yes, please keep it up and model for others how it’s supposed to be done. You were working at the highest levels on Capitol Hill during some pretty remarkable periods of federal K 12 education reform.

[00:35:46] Can you sketch for us some of the political dynamics around federal K 12 lawmaking? The influence of DC’s education, special interests. Some are called the blob as we know, as well as some of the regulatory and bureaucratic issues surrounding the US Department of Education’s programs for things like IDEA or Title One, or even the DC Opportunity Scholarship.

[00:36:12] Katherine Haley: Alisha, thank you so much for that question. I will say, I think it’s so interesting, the blob, the education blob or the term lobbyists, every interest group actually has an advocate. When you think about it from that perspective, whether it’s teachers or parents, school districts, students with disabilities post-secondary, everyone has like.

[00:36:32] An advocate. Mm-hmm. And, and when you think about trying to navigate the halls of Congress, you know, you have 435 members of the house and a hundred in the Senate, and then you have, you know, departments and agencies that are implementing. You’re like, well, yeah, I, I understand. I want an expert. When I approached individuals that were coming to knock on our doors when I worked in the Senate and in the house.

[00:36:53] I always met people from the district. That was always number one priority. Mm-hmm. But I also met with the other experts, in part because they provided historical context oftentimes, you know, I was one of those that would, you know, read the detailed committee reports. I would read reports that came from Congressional research service just to try to understand what was congressional intent, but the others provided.

[00:37:17] Deeper understanding on the implications of policy, and it helped me ask better questions and helped me then inform my bosses as they were leading and they were making policy decisions. I’ll think of one example when we were getting ready to reauthorize No Child Left Behind. This is in 2007, I was working for Congressman Pete Hsra, who represented.

[00:37:39] Western Michigan and we would have these round tables and they would say, uh, the district would say, we’re penalized because our student populations like our accountability. Were penalized for our subgroups because, you know, we have a subgroup size of 32 and California and Texas have like. Subgroup sizes of like 200 or 150 or something like that.

[00:38:01] And I was like, well, what is this? Like why is this state of against the other? And it was really helpful for me both to engage the department, but also members, the so-called education blob of, you know, how did we get here? And I was like, oh, well, Michigan, when they applied or submitted their NCLB plan in probably 2003, they said, in order for us to determine.

[00:38:26] The effectiveness of our education on our students, we are gonna determine a size of 32. So if you have students of 32 or more, we’re gonna have to report or just aggregate our data around those specific groups to make sure that all of our kids are learning. And if not, we have to go and do better interventions.

[00:38:44] And I thought that was really interesting. Going back to sort of the way interest groups and constituents, I would say my experience working for individual members really helped. Prepare me when I worked for Speaker Vayner, both when he was minority leader and then head of the US House because our constituents were actually members of the house.

[00:39:05] And so instead of looking to the district, being able to understand the impact of policy helped me get members to a yes or no vote on a particular issue. And that was really important, particularly when my last vote on the Hill in 2015 was the day that the house. Passed essa, the Every Student Succeed Act.

[00:39:26] It was very just really interesting to literally walk off the house floor, turn in my iPhone and my badge, and then go home. It was really, really fascinating. But one of our big things was around accountability. That was a not a sticking point for Bayner when he, when we were negotiating those bills and much kudos.

[00:39:44] To Virginia Fox and Senator Alexander as they were making those inroads was that they were like, we have to still assess kids. We have to still do that. And as I was using the information that I had, I was able to appeal to various members that sort of were. Against all of the heavy hand of the federal government is like if we don’t have sort of any sort of transparency how our families are gonna be able to make appropriate decisions.

[00:40:11] So that’s a, you know, very long answer. But those interest groups as well as individuals that were practitioners on the ground really helped me as a staff person helped navigate and help. Clarify either in report language or amendments or new sections in legislation. That’s an example of the DC Opportunity Scholarship.

[00:40:33] We needed to clarify, there was efforts that the US Department of Education under the Obama administration were trying to do. So when we were able to reauthorize it, we had to be very. Firm in clarifying language to say, no, you actually can’t do that. You need to do it this way. And so, yeah, I, I had a positive experience, but I used it to help inform the way policy was written and eventually how policy was advanced in passed.

[00:41:00] Alisha Searcy: Wow. Super helpful. Thank you for that. I wanna talk about the amount of money, frankly, that we invest in education and the fact that we’re not really seeing the results that we hope or expect to see. And so for several decades, NAP reading, math and science results and performance of American K 12 education on the international measures have largely been flat.

[00:41:23] And you kind of mentioned that a little while ago, even talking about Arizona and in some cases. Declining across the country. Can you talk about perhaps why you think even before COVID and despite enormous expenditures, well over 800 billion annually has been spent on the American education system, but we have such a difficulty improving basic student achievement or even closing gaps in spite of all of those dollars spent on things like No Child Left Behind, or Race to the Top, or essa, and the list goes on.

[00:41:57] What’s happening here?

[00:41:59] Katherine Haley: I feel like it, we all need to have PhDs in social science. Maybe Albert, you could help us. Yes. Um, you know, when I look at the impact of NCLB and you look at the trajectory of a scores, but also just look, the impact of NCLB specifically is that we saw continued growth through 2013.

[00:42:18] And I often wonder if. Some of the change and sort of the decline is that around that time, starting in 20 10, 11, 12 states sought waivers from the US Department of Education from the mandates of their NCLB plans. And because many had some pretty heavy backend requirements in order to meet their proficiency and accountability expectations, and you know, we sort of let our foot off the gas.

[00:42:48] I also wonder a little bit about the role of smartphones and student mental health. You know, Jonathan Het and Angela Duckworth, I’ve been following some of their research over the last number of years and wonder. Around that same time as students were bringing other devices and other distractions into the classroom, and I’ve wondered if that distraction, I mean, Jonathan and his latest book really, it talks about sort of the study and I think it, I can’t remember.

[00:43:19] It was probably somebody else, and he was quoting the study and forgive me for not knowing the exact individual, but just having the presence of your phone. Up next to you, you’re always checking your phone. If you turn it over, you’re less distracted. And if you hide your phone, you’re able to concentrate more with greater focus and fidelity.

[00:43:39] And so I wonder if that has also been a component of just added distraction to kids and the lack of inability to focus. And then my last, I often wonder, we have great expectations for our educators, certainly to teach students around math, science. Reading, critical thinking, collaboration, other sort of both hard and soft skills.

[00:44:02] I also think that many of our educators has been tasked to parent our students. Mm-hmm. And that I don’t think has been, that’s not why they went to school. It’s probably why many of them did not get into becoming an educator. And so I kind of wonder if that confluence of taking our foot off the gas of.

[00:44:21] Gosh, we really need to make sure all of our kids have a strong firm learning foundation, coupled with sort of the distraction of students as they show up each day. And then third is sort of our teachers are supposed to be educators, but they can’t be too firm and they can’t be too hard, but they need to be nice and they.

[00:44:40] You know it. I think we’ve created a very interesting dynamic. I would say spending is not the solution. I think we’ve seen that particularly coming out of COVID. I’ll be really interesting to see how schools and states sort of in a postmortem, how did they allocate their COVID relief dollars. Some really were innovative and doubled down and used one times.

[00:45:03] Bending to accelerate learning. Others used it for pet projects. We saw a school district in Arizona, the $20 million one that we took into receivership. It’s unclear where they spent their dollars, but they got quite a bit of COVID relief funds and they almost had to close their schools last year, mid-year because they were so far in arrears.

[00:45:26] And anyway, so those things I think are a great concern. So. Those are some of my thoughts and perhaps some are controversial, but hopefully with some of the new state policies on sort of removing devices from classrooms and creating that freedom for kids to really learn, maybe that will be helpful in sort of writing the current trajectory.

[00:45:48] I appreciate your

[00:45:48] Alisha Searcy: thoughts. Some may be considered controversial, some would consider a little truth telling. So thanks Alisha. Here’s my final question for you, Katherine. You’ve been working in public policy for several decades and clearly you’ve done some phenomenal work, uh, and I think it’s had a great impact on kids across the country, frankly.

[00:46:08] Thank you, um, and you are welcome. And you’ve also held very high level positions in government, philanthropy and policy advocacy. So I wanna break this up into two questions. One, what would you like to see governors, state legislatures, local officials and parents do? To dramatically improve the academic outcomes for American K 12 school children.

[00:46:32] And I also wanna add to that, with all that’s happening at the federal level and the shifts that we’re seeing, you are sitting in a very important seat on the state board. What advice do you give to state legislators, school board members, others, as there may be more responsibility coming to the states because of the shifts happening at the federal level?

[00:46:52] Katherine Haley: First of all, I think we should focus on what works and we need to do it with a sense of urgency. I mentioned earlier around our state’s, K through three literacy and just the time. I sometimes get so frustrated with how long sometimes things get, but you need the buy-in of key stakeholders to actually implement the policy.

[00:47:12] I would say. Like looking at our southern states, you know, the southern surge states around literacy and some that are now taking on numeracy or states that are passing policy around hands-on learning. Like in Indiana, those legislators and those state leaders, they’re taking bold stances and they’re taking.

[00:47:31] They’re using their political capital and not shirking at potential blowback. And so I commend those states. So when I look at other states and Arizona included, it’s like we gotta do what works and we need to stop being distracted by other things. I commend states like Texas and Louisiana, and I think Mississippi’s done it too, and Georgia probably has, forgive me for not bringing this up, but.

[00:47:58] You can only use your high quality instructional material resources if it actually is quality. So it means you can’t use it for whole language. You have to use it for science of reading. And I think those are really, really important policies. It’s the carrot and the stick. I hope more states do this. You know, when Governor Youngin came in in Virginia, he had four years to do great things and he had some phenomenal leaders.

[00:48:27] That joined him like Amy Gera to say, we gotta improve the state accountability system and assessments, and I’m going to use what resources that I have to work with our state board. Because the legislature was not totally aligned at the time to ensure that their accountability and their assessments actually were good truth tellers.

[00:48:46] And so I hope that. Governor elect Bamberger when she takes office that she sort of sees that work as sort of like, gosh, this is actually really good for our state. And she carries that tradition forward. My advice is I would really like legislators to do the difficult and hard thing for kids and families.

[00:49:05] I think it’s really, really important ’cause that’s why they were elected ultimately. And if you have a really strong educated society, well that’s gonna be great for your economy. It’s gonna be great for your. State, it’s gonna be great for just sort of the vitality of the community around as far as the shift in federal level.

[00:49:25] We had some questions of like, oh, well if the department sort of dismantles, does that mean we still need to have accountability system? Yes, absolutely. Yes. And I charge states that they need to. Really kind of build that internal infrastructure to make sure that they are able to provide the technical assistance to school districts.

[00:49:47] That they’re able to provide meaningful, clear and transparent information to parents and families that they need to be able to. Take on that responsibility and recognize that if Congress were to codify some of the changes that the Trump administration has made, the buck stops with them. Then at the state, they can’t point the finger to the federal government to say that.

[00:50:12] You know, oh, it’s the federal government that makes me do this, that they need to be able to take that on. And I say, why? Because we’re in a global society where technology and ai, which I sort of understand, I, I need to learn a lot more, but the expectations of young people being able to think critically and synthesize information, you can only do that if you have a really strong.

[00:50:37] Reading foundation, you have a really strong mathematical understanding. You have an understanding of, of science, and also a deep understanding of history because what happens in the past is often seen again in the present. And so if you don’t have that strong foundation, whether it’s in a traditional public system or a charter sector.

[00:51:00] Or a private or home educating sector, you need to like our, our children of the future, which are inheriting sort of the issues of today. They will not be prepared to solve them. And so I think my challenge to states is if more responsibility is delegated to you, take it with great sincerity and really move forward because it’s in the interest of your community for the future.

[00:51:25] So anyway. Great questions, Alisha. Thank you.

[00:51:28] Alisha Searcy: Thank you and great answers and just a great interview. We appreciate you so much for joining us and sharing all of your insights. I feel like we need part two and three of this, so just stay tuned. We’re gonna call you back.

[00:51:41] Katherine Haley: Thank you so much, Alisha, and thank you so much, Albert.

[00:51:44] I really appreciated the opportunity to be on the Learning Curve podcast. You guys are very admirable and I enjoy listening to it.

[00:51:53] Well, Alisha, what a way to kick off the new year with Katherine and all her insights and commentary on some hard educational issues.

[00:52:01] Alisha Searcy: Yeah, and she’s been at this for a long time, so it was interesting to hear both her, you know, state perspective as well as this federal perspective. So, great interview.

[00:52:10] Albert Cheng: Well, before we close out, I do wanna leave everyone with the Tweets of the week. This one comes from Neil McCluskey Want a Federal Department of Education. Presidentially driven Federal Control is what you get. And so it’s a piece from Politico and just weighing into, I guess, a debate and conversation that that we’ve been having over the past year, certainly about the federal rule and Department of Ed.

[00:52:35] So check that out. This issue isn’t going away. That’s it for the tweets. Alisha, thanks for joining and kicking off this new year. Yes, happy

[00:52:45] Alisha Searcy: to be with you again and looking forward to, uh,

[00:52:47] Albert Cheng: guests to come. Yeah, guests to come. Speaking of which, next week we’re gonna have June Chang, who is the author of the International Bestseller Wild Swans, three Daughters of China, and she recently released the sequel.

[00:53:02] Fly Wild Swans, my mother, myself and Chyna. So that should be a fascinating interview. I’m looking forward to that one. Hope you listeners will as well. So see you next time. Until then, happy New year again and be well. Take care. Bye.