Catholic schools are closing their doors all across America, leaving future generations with nowhere to turn for the high-quality academics and values-based education so many families are seeking. The number of students attending Catholic schools in the US fell from about 5.2 million in 1965 to around two million in 2008.
Pioneer Institute believes these schools are worth preserving. For over a decade, we have raised our voice in support of these excellent academic options, and tools such as tax credit scholarships that would enable more families to attend.
Pioneer has held public forums, published research on the benefits of Catholic education, on successful models such as Cristo Rey, and on policy changes that would stop the Massachusetts education department from depriving religious school students of special needs services and school nurses. The Institute has also convened key stakeholders, appeared in local and national press, filed amicus briefs, produced a feature a documentary film, and much more.
This week on Hubwonk, host Joe Selvaggi talks with Pioneer Institute’s Visiting Fellow in Life Sciences, Dr. Bill Smith, about his newest research paper, “An “Impending Tsunami” in Mortality from Traditional Diseases,” which sounds the alarm that the public health community’s focus on COVID-19 has caused many to avoid seeking medical attention for other illnesses. As a result, more Americans are dying from fear of COVID than from the disease itself.
Guest:
William S. Smith is Visiting Fellow in Life Sciences at Pioneer Institute. He has 25 years of experience in government and in corporate roles, including as vice president of public affairs and policy at Pfizer, and as a consultant to major pharmaceutical, biotechnology and medical device companies. He held senior staff positions for the Republican House leadership on Capitol Hill, the White House, and in the Massachusetts Governor’s office. He is affiliated as research fellow and managing director with the Center for the Study of Statesmanship at The Catholic University of America (CUA), where he earned his PhD.
WATCH:
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk, I’m Joe Selvaggi
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston for nearly two years. Fear of COVID-19 has eclipsed the public health attention to other diseases that afflict and kill far more people than the COVID-19 virus while the public has isolated masks and taking more than 7 billion COVID vaccines globally, traditional threats to life from cancer, diabetes, and heart disease have not gone away. Unfortunately, since the outbreak in early 2020 many individuals, fear of COVID have led the, to avoid doctor visits, screenings, and treatment that could identify and treat their disease, this neglect of other lethal, but treatable conditions may already be leading to more Americans to die from fear of COVID. Then we’ll die from COVID itself. How can public health officials correct course from a message that is discouraged all discretionary treatment during the initial phase of the pandemic to one that sounds a loud alarm that we must return our attention to detection and treatment of traditional and far more deadly threats to human health. I guess today’s Dr. Bill Smith visiting life science fellow at Pioneer Institute in his new research piece entitled an impending tsunami in mortality from traditional diseases. Dr. Smith makes the case that our complete focus on COVID-19 has averted the public health attention away from more lethal conditions, such as cancer and heart disease. This lack of attention for other treatable, deadly diseases, coupled with the fear engendered by COVID-19 may well result in more deaths attributable to fear of COVID then to the disease itself. When I return I’ll be joined by Pioneer Institute’s Dr. Bill Smith.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. We’re back. This is Hubwonk. I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m now joined by a visiting fellow in life sciences at Pioneer Institute, and a good friend of the Hubwonk podcast Dr. Bill Smith. Welcome back to the show, Bill. Thank you, Joe. Glad to be here. I want to talk to you or with you about the newest research piece that you just released entitled and impending tsunami in mortality from traditional diseases and implications for public health. It really struck me hard and it gave me a lot to think about let’s start at the beginning for the benefit of our listeners with some background. I’ll just throw in that we’re now approaching the second year of of COVID since it was first discovered in, in China and 2019, hence COVID-19 the diseases reached every part of the world.
Joe Selvaggi:
We know now we have new strains that COVID the Delta Varian, which are both more contagious and more deadly. And you know, these are, this is the bad news. The good news is that we’ve got some effective, safe vaccines and therapies. In fact an earlier episode of have Wonka, we featured the fact that we hope to be approaching zero COVID deaths very, very soon. So this is where we begin. Your paper starts out with some background on how deadly COVID is and compares to some of the diseases mankind has experienced in the past. Let’s start at the very beginning how, how bad and how deadly is COVID compared to other things mankind has encountered?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it’s not as deadly as HIV. It’s not as deadly, probably as the S the Spanish flu and maybe that’s due to therapeutics and vaccines. But it’s even not as deadly as some of our current traditional diseases. So COVID is now probably the number two or three killer in the country. And there was a point in January and February where it was the number one killer, but there was also a point when it was the number seven killer. So it’s a dangerous disease. What I’m not saying in this paper is that we should ignore COVID. But what I’m saying in this paper is that it’s, it’s not the number one killer, and I think public health authorities. I want to take them to task a little bit because they’ve ignored the public health campaigns to have people go and get diagnostic tests for more traditional diseases. I focus on cardiovascular disease, but you could look at any disease, state cancer, mammograms, diabetes, A1C tests, there’s a whole bunch of diagnostic screenings that fell off the cliff during COVID.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I am going to unpack that one, one piece at a time, I guess, a Hublot might be part of that whole movement. Certainly we dedicated quite a few episodes to, to COVID and I, I would agree that COVID seems to have eclipsed all other health, public health issues definitely to the detriment of, of the public health. Where do you think we went? We, we lost our way, so we have, you know, in January, February we discovered this disease. It was rampant in, in China and Italy, and it ultimately arrived on our shores. I remember quite well when everything locked down in early March where you have to expect the public to be frightened and focused on something not well known, not a never before seen where, you know, if you were a public health person, where, where did we lose our way in the beginning?
Dr. Bill Smith:
I, I didn’t, I won’t even say and criticize public health officials in the beginning, because there was so much, there was such a lack of knowledge about how severe this disease was, how quickly it was going to spread and public have felt the health officials were groping around, understandably, trying to figure out how this, how, how deadly this disease was going to be. So I’m not going to criticize them for the, the 2020 period, but once we started getting vaccines and the rates of COVID started dropping, I really think public officials should have said very publicly, go back to the doctor, get your blood pressure, screened, get, get a mammogram, get, get your cholesterol tested. They should have made a conscious effort to say, you know what, it’s safe, relatively safe to go back to the doctor and people that are at risk for these traditional diseases gut should go in and get tested. And they did not do that. They continued talking about COVID non-stop
Joe Selvaggi:
Which in your paper you say creates a, a cultural fear again in the beginning. And certainly much of that is justified as you point out. But that fear does have a downside. You chose in your paper to feature a particular disease. We have many things that can kill us but you, you chose a CVD cardiovascular disease as the, perhaps the emblematic disease of all diseases to to make your point. What made you choose that disease?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I, I knew from the beginning, you know, you know what I do for pioneer, I follow a biotech and pharma policy, and I’m getting a little out of my lane with this paper, but I felt like I had to, because I was, I subscribed to all these healthcare blogs and websites, and I’m constantly following media around healthcare. And I started to see these staggering stories. One of them that jumped out at me was a CDC study that said during COVID mammograms had fallen off the cliff by 87%, 87%, fewer mammograms. Exactly. And I started looking at all the data for our different disease states and, and I became overwhelmed because in virtually every disease area, people were not going to the doctor and getting the traditional tests. So I thought, I can’t write a paper of this size. It’s too big.
Dr. Bill Smith:
I have to narrow it down. And the logical the logical therapeutic area to focus on is cardiovascular disease, because it’s the number one killer. And it’s been the number one killer even during COVID. There were more far more cardiovascular deaths in 2020, and in 2021 than there were COVID deaths. And and I also, the D the data was also very alarming, you know, blood pressure screenings during COVID down 50% cholesterol screenings down 35% stress tests where you might pick up atrial fibrillation or other conditions were down 80%. I mean, the numbers were very concerning, and I thought, I should, I really should write about this
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. So all these tests that have helped keep us healthy fell off a cliff, and one have to assume people remain just as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable being in lockdown with COVID. So we just essentially turned off the light and for all these diseases one of your one of the things we did early on in, in hub walk is in the interest of helping people address their health issues, we promoted and encourage people to use the technology that, that we’re using right now. And this remote technology call it telemedicine, where you can get your doctor from the comfort of your living room and perhaps not have that non-zero risk of getting COVID well, taking a trip to the, to the doctor, your paper addresses that fact that telemedicine was a compliment, but perhaps maybe not the right path for, for everything and everyone. Yeah.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Pioneer has written a lot about tele-health and we’re very enthusiastic about it. We think it should be reimbursed. We think it should be above it. It should be easier to get in touch with your doctor. And tele-health is one way to do that. What I saw in the data concern me that concerned me was that in a telehealth visit during COVID, at least you are less likely, for example, to get a blood pressure screening, less likely to get a cholesterol screening, you might get to talk to your doctor about one thing that’s going on, but you wouldn’t get all the traditional tests. Like if you go, I, I, I broke a rib a couple of months ago. I had to go into the doctor and they, they did a blood pressure test, and they looked at a bunch of things that weren’t related to my ribbon any way. And you, you weren’t getting that. I don’t think you were getting that in telehealth visits. And, and that also has a health disparity angle because minority communities tended to use health tele-health visits more than others. I that’s surprising to me, but that was, that was what the data show. So I’m, I’m an enthusiastic supporter of, of telehealth, but I think there’s a quality issue that some tele-health is this need to be upgraded so that you’re actually getting the diagnostic tests that are, that are essential.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes. And in addition to our a shows on tele telehealth, we did have a actual emergency room doctors who attested that laying of hands is, is, is vital. So we need to see a doctor in real life from time to time. But you also, in your paper measure you, you mentioned the falloff of mammograms. Let’s focus on the the tests that relate to heart disease. How, you know, let’s translate, let’s connect the dots. If I don’t go to my doctor or I don’t get a test share with me which tests or do I have gotten that I’m not getting, or that the public generally is not getting. And how does that translate to a death?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I’m not a cardiologist, but I mean, I would think that blood pressure screenings are the number one thing that should happen. You’re, you’re going to develop heart disease and your heart’s going to muscle is going to suffer. If you’re you’re, you have chronic blood pressure, high blood pressure, that’s hypertension, that’s not being addressed. So I think that’s the number one. And that’s, you know, that may be something that could be done in a telehealth visit, but right now that’s not that common. So that’s the number one thing I think that was missing cholesterol screenings. Of course, if you’re at risk for atrial fibrillation, there’s a whole slew of tests that, that usually you have to go into your doctor to, to, to have a a stress test. There, there’s all sorts of things that that again, fell off a cliff during COVID and cardiomyopathy, a general weakening of the heart, same story there, echocardiograms and all sorts of tests that can be done in the office.
Dr. Bill Smith:
If you’re at high risk for some of these things and your heart muscle baby may be weakening, but a lot of those tests have to have to be done in the office. They can’t be done in a telehealth visit. Now we are seeing, and you probably see it on TV, that there are these devices where you can very selling them on Amazon. You put your two fingers on a device, and it tells you whether your heart is beating properly, and it might be able to diagnose atrial fibrillation. I’m very encouraged by those. I think they should be in great use. But some of them require you to go to your doctor and actually be taught how to use it and be connected to your doctor, not just, you know, take, take it for fun and see it on your phone. So I think the in-person visits should have been encouraged to a greater degree to see cardiologists if you’re an at risk patient or just a normal patient to just go in and get your BP and your and your cholesterol tested
Joe Selvaggi:
Now many of our listeners are thinking, okay, look, I should get these tests. I should see my doctor. But of course, you know, I should brush between meals and these all kinds of great ideas that a lot of people might issue for for convenience exit can’t get around to it. How would we be persuasive in measuring there’s a term we use as in many of the past episodes talking about COVID we talked about COVID deaths, but we talk about excess deaths due to COVID. And, and much of what you’re talking about, I believe is people who will die because they’ve not taken the proper care to go to their doctor. And that will not have been from COVID. Have you, or is your, your paper does attempt to quantify measure how many deaths that might be attributable to non COVID deaths, but that are COVID related owing to people not taking proper precautions with their care.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, agile. I think the answer is we don’t have good data on this and we should. So there was anecdotal data. For example, when my paper came out, the Boston Herald wrote a story about it, saying people weren’t getting the traditional screenings and the chief operating officer for mass general. One of the most important hospitals in the country went on record in that story and said, yes, we’re seeing anecdotal evidence that, that our emergency rooms are getting flooded with patients with non COVID conditions. So heart, heart problems and other problems. And so I think, I think there should be studies that should be done where, you know, researchers go into the emergency room and they say, okay, you’re, you’re, you’re having some heart pains, chest pains. When was the last time you got screened? And we start to try to figure out the hard data on how many people that are showing up now in large numbers are showing up in, in, in large part because they didn’t get screened for 18 or 20 months. That, that I think that would be very valuable data to have. And I think researchers should be out there looking at that.
Joe Selvaggi:
Certainly that seems like a useful tactic because well, heart, I think her problems present dramatically and quickly. I’m also thinking about all those diseases that take longer to kill us like a cancer that we won’t see. And if, again, if we were measuring for excess deaths from cancer from COVID, or those wouldn’t be measurable now, because you would not know that that lump would not be found for, for years perhaps where a visit to the doctor might’ve found it immediately.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Exactly. If you were six years from your last colonoscopy and COVID hit, you might be eight or nine years away from your colonoscopy, that that’s just not a good thing to happen.
Joe Selvaggi:
Right. And so you so have you been able to, in any way in, for, from, let’s say the data that we have you, you had some numbers in your paper talking about comparing the deaths from heart disease in 2020 versus 2021. Fortunately the rates of death from COVID is, are falling. We’ve got effective vaccines and therapies they’re falling fairly dramatically. Whereas heart disease is going in the other direction. At what point given that there’s so many more people dying from heart disease than are dying from COVID, at what point should it appear on the radar of the public health? In other words, when should the headline and the Kyron on CNN start talking about heart disease deaths instead of COVID?
Dr. Bill Smith:
I think it should have happened six months ago. I mean, that’s what I wrote in my paper that there should have been a public health campaign to encourage people to go back to their doctor and get some of these tests. And I would even, I would even recommend, again, we don’t know how ominous that the tsunami that I I warn about is going to be, but I would even recommend that we set up set up tent cities in like neighborhoods like we did for the COVID vaccine or COVID tests where people can go and get a blood pressure screening and a cholesterol screening easily, particularly in minority neighborhoods. Just we’re going to do this for free. We’re coming into your neighborhood. We’re setting up in the parking lot, come by and we’ll, we’ll screen your blood pressure. Those are the kinds of things that public health officials should be doing in, in large numbers.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, we’re going to get to the, the, if you were king for a day recommendations, cause you had a few of those in your paper, and then towards the end, I just want to put a fine point on it at this point. I think you’re comfortable in asserting that, whereas COVID is a pretty bad a disease that killed a lot of people more than 750,000 Americans. So we don’t want to make light of that, but at this point in the process, the fear of COVID and that fear that, that keeps us from our doctor is far more lethal. And in fact, a far greater public health threat than COVID itself and therefore should be treated as it’s COVID related because the fear is COVID related, but it should be treated as dramatically and comprehensively as we treated the actual disease of COVID
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s my view. I mean, COVID was the leading killer for maybe two months during this whole period. And cardiovascular disease was the one killer for most of the months during this period. And I just think public health officials should have had more context and said to people, look you’re most the overwhelming percentage of older Americans are vaccinated. You can go to the doctor and you can get tested. Now, go back. Now that that should have been happening when vaccination rates started to peak.
Joe Selvaggi:
So again, now we’ll get to the king for a day. There are many policy makers who listened to the show public health leaders maybe they knew it in the back of their mind. They said, okay, wait, you’re right. We’ve been you know, COVID turn up to 11 every day we’re we’re missing the forest for the trees here. If you were king for a day, what would you change? What would be some of the first things you would say?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I made three, three recommendations in the paper. The first one I’ve already talked about a major public health campaign to encourage people to go back to their doctor and get these diagnostic tests that may be a TV campaign. It may be just public health officials talking about it when they get on TV and to talk about COVID. They also mentioned these other conditions and remind people to go back. So that that’s the first thing, a public public affairs campaign to remind people this, the second recommendation I make is make it easier for people to get medications. So you, you do finally go back to your doctor and they give you a prescription and suddenly you have a $200 co-insurance payment and you don’t fill your prescription. I just think for a year or two, we ought to have a reduction in copays and out-of-pocket costs so that people actually filled their medications and take them right away.
Dr. Bill Smith:
There was for example a number that I saw in one of these studies, a tour of a stat in which is the lipid lowering drug Lipitor, when it was branded it’s the most commonly prescribed drug in the country, a tour of a stat and prescriptions were down 9% during COVID. And if you think about the number of a tour bus Caton prescriptions in a year, it’s over a hundred million, which means that there are 10 million, fewer prescriptions for this lipid lowering drug, important drug being prescribed. And I just think we’ve got to get people back in and taking some of these cheap, generic medications for, for blood pressure or, or, or lipid lowering. And on the more expensive medications we ought to have lower out-of-pocket cost so people can actually afford them. So that was sort of my second recommendation to encourage people to get back on their meds if they haven’t gone to the doctor, or if they’re going to the doctor for the first time in a year, and they get diagnosed with something, they get encouraged to fill their prescriptions because we know when they show up at the pharmacy and they have a high out-of-pocket costs, a lot of people just walk away, they don’t fill their script.
Joe Selvaggi:
So are you comparing, I, or actually in your paper, you did indeed compare. You said, look, we we know these vaccines work. We know you need them but we’re gonna make the pot a little sweeter and make it free. So as to ensure the greatest uptake possible, you’re comparing other lethal or let’s say life-saving treatments to a vaccine, and you’re saying, let’s apply the same logic. They are to encourage the, you know, to avoid this tsunami of mortality. Let’s, let’s make those
Dr. Bill Smith:
Exactly, at least in a year or two. I mean, how many fewer vaccinations would we have had if they had to queue up first and pay a $20 copay before you went and got your vaccine? I think a lot of people would have just said, forget it. I’m not doing it. So I do think out of pocket costs are an important factor. There are many studies about it, and we should lower them for a couple of years to get people back on chronic medication. So that was my second recommendation. My third recommendation was for the federal government. There is a, I forget what the formal term is. There’s a health preventative task force it’s called
Joe Selvaggi:
Right? The U S the United States preventative services, task force. So it’s got a long acronym USPSTF’s so say more.
Dr. Bill Smith:
And they’re the, the group and the federal government that makes decisions about what diagnostic tests should be, you know, a matter of course, in your annual physical how, how, who should be tested at what age. And there are very esteemed group. Let me just say that there’s a lot of physicians for medical centers around. It’s not just government bureaucrats, it’s, it’s a lot of very, very serious medical professionals on that. And so when I, I got into this paper, I thought I’ll go onto their website. They must be apoplectic that they’ve made so many important recommendations about diagnostic tests that need to be taken for, for Americans. They should be apoplectic that they’re not happening. And you know what, they weren’t, it was, it looked to me on their website and I don’t want to criticize them personally, but it looked to me like it was business as usual, you know, oh, we’re working on this test.
Dr. Bill Smith:
It might tell whether a person in their fifties has diabetes and, you know, they weren’t, there wasn’t an, a red alarm going off, like on top of a fire truck that said, wait a minute, we’re the people that are, are trying to get people to do these tests. And we’re not mobilizing, we’re not, we’re not putting out press releases. We’re not doing studies. We’re not, we’re not educating the population about how important these tests are. And that concerned me and I, I just, so one of my final recommendations is these guys need to get engaged in this public health campaign, and also start putting out some information and data about the important diagnostic tests that are not being performed. The important screenings that are not being performed.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes, it seems to me that it would be, I don’t know if there is such a term called applied health, but all the best science in the world does no good. If it’s sitting on a shelf in a drug store or in the hospital, just like vaccines have to go into arms to, to work these, these treatments that are being developed and need to be prescribed and taken to, to help anyone it’s your future. And, you know, you’ve, you’ve stumbled across something that I think we should have already, as you say, had a red, big red light on at a national level a massive mobilization. Do you aspire to look at other, let’s say health challenges I’m, I’m looking perhaps to a future episode on the effect of COVID on public health. We all know people who have literally been broken by this disease either because they’ve been in isolation in fear. Absolutely terrified. And and you know, these I’m sure there’s a measurable uptick in suicides, or just in general depression. Do you aspire to do, to help us quantify what’s going on in other areas and other diseases in the future?
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s a very interesting topic to me, and I hope people that read my paper are, are decide. We’ve got to do more research in this area, because I think there are conditions. You mentioned mental health, but you know, the headlines yesterday was that we had a hundred thousand opioid deaths during the last year. I mean, that’s astonishing number that’s staggering. That’s much higher than, than, than traffic deaths. And, and nobody’s talking about it. And, and one would think some of it is related to the isolation that happens when, during COVID. And there are, you know, there, there are other therapeutic areas like diabetes and stroke and cancer, where we should be looking at what the implications were, so that if we have another pandemic like this, the lockdowns, don’t say, don’t go to the emergency room, don’t go to the doctor. You know, they admitted during the lockdowns that you have to go to the grocery store and they should have also said, you have to go to the doctor. And, and that really didn’t come through very clearly.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. Now we’re getting close to the end of our time together. You’ve been in you know, a scientist and a, I’m a member of the I guess the big pharma and health community for some time. Why do you think public health has this blind spot? Meaning if you and I, here in Boston, on our podcasts, can identify far more lethal challenges to the American public. Why is it that our public health officials are blind to this and remain focused on a disease that thankfully because of vaccines and therapies is be, you know, we’re, we’re going to rapidly approach zero COVID death.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I don’t want to be too cynical and read into people’s motives, but it seemed to me that the COVID was a golden moment for the public health community. Right? You could get on, if you were a local public health official, you could get on TV every night and talk about COVID. If you were a federal health, the public health officials, you could be on every cable news show every night. And I don’t know why you would during a pandemic. You’d think you’d be at your desk working for solutions, but a lot of these guys, and I’m not going to name names, cause I don’t want to make it personal, but a lot of these guys just never stopped going on TV. And they realized if I talk about COVID, I can get on TV and I can get in the media and I can be quoted in the New York times. And everybody’s going to ask my opinion and you know, that’s natural, it’s human nature. You would, you would bask in that kind of attention. And it’s also probably true that if you started talking about getting a blood pressure screening, the reporters would fall asleep. They wouldn’t be quite as interested in that topic, but nonetheless, I still think they should have plowed through and tried to get that message out,
Joe Selvaggi:
Right? Not, not fan servicing, they should be committed to actual public health and, and shy away from the spotlight and focused on what, what, what really matters. But we’re doing our part. You’re doing your part, your research piece, I think should grab the attention and perhaps the ship will change course. And we will see public health officials with a red light saying, go see your doctor so that if I’m going to wrap up the show and, and come up with one massive recommendation is all of our listeners ought to put down the podcast and make sure they get the see their primary care physician and, and take the medicine that they’re prescribed as quickly as they can.
Dr. Bill Smith:
I agree, a hundred percent or your specialists, your cardiologists around colleges, whatever your particular health situation is just don’t, don’t be scared by COVID go back and get, get a diagnosis, get a screening, get a test.
Joe Selvaggi:
Oh, that’s great. Well, well, we’ll leave the show there. I appreciate your coming on and, and, and writing such a thoughtful paper. And I think we’re, we’re, we’re part of the change. And and, and you’re a big part of, thank you very much for joining the show again, bill. My pleasure, Joe, Welcome to the hub. The 360 explainer. I’m here with bill Smith of pioneer Institute. Bill. How does the biopharmaceutical business model work? Lots of people have opinions about the pharmaceutical industry. There’s a broad. Hmm. Okay. okay, let me try it again. Okay. This is a long 360 I’m Joey [inaudible]. I’m joined now by pioneer institutes, bill Smith bill, we’re going to talk about the, how the biopharmaceutical business model works. How is it different from other industries?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, Joel, it’s, it’s very different from other industries and I would, there are many ways I could talk about, but let me, let me narrow it down to three. The first way I think it’s different is that it’s the industry with the largest R and D costs. So there are huge costs upfront when developing the medicine. And then generally there are low manufacturing costs. Once you discover the medicine, because it just, you have to put the chemical together in a factory and it may cost three or 4 cents a pill, but it’s going to sell for three or $4 a pill because you’ve done all this R and D and that’s kind of unique. That’s not like the housing industry where the labor costs, the lumber costs, that’s concrete costs are part and parcel of the manufacturing costs. And they’re high. Same with autos. You can’t sell an auto for, for $10,000, if it costs $25,000 to assemble in labor and parts.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So the industry is unique in that way. They have low manufacturing costs and high R and D costs. The second way, I’d say it’s, it’s unique and the chairs this with a few other industries, but not all industries is that it’s indispensable to life. When you make a product that people feel are indispensable. There’s always going to be political fighting over price, just as they’re fighting over this price, fighting over gasoline prices, currently, any essential good for human beings, there’s going to be in a fight over price. Nobody cares about the price of a moderate Maserati, because it’s not essential to your life, but the products that are essential to your life there tends to be political wrangling about prices. And that’s just a natural part of the industry. It’s always going to be part of the industry. And the third thing, I think that makes it unique is the patent system where a branded company does the R and D it’s very expensive.
Dr. Bill Smith:
There’s a 20 year patent, but they only get maybe seven years of patent life where they’re selling the product. A lot of times the product is under patent for 10 or 12 years during the R and D process. So there’s no sales. So for those seven years, they can charge a kind of monopoly price for that product, which is very, very high. But then the product that the patent expires and the product price drops enormously, this is very unique. There aren’t any industries like this. So if you buy a new car for $35,000, you can’t get a used car for a hundred dollars, but actually in the drug industry, you can, when the patent expires on a branded drug, the price will drop to almost nothing to Penny’s. And, and that’s, that’s a unique feature of the industry.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I think what you’re talking about is the generic drug industry. How does the generic drug industry fit into the overall life sciences industry?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it’s, it’s extremely important industry because the, the branded drug industry makes the discoveries. They do the R and D they find the new products, but then once the patent expires the generic industry, drug industry, all they have to do is manufacture it at a, at a low cost. And then it can be sold that at extremely low cost. So just one anecdotal example, when I was at Pfizer, liberatory was our, our flagship product. People told me it was about $4 per pill, and there were tens of millions of people on it. So it was a multi-billion dollar drug. I bumped into a healthcare executive from Michigan the other day, and I asked them what the price of Lipitor was now that it was generic. It’s called a tour of a statin is a generic. He said, we pay about 4 cents a pill.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So it went from $4 to 4 cents. I can’t think of another industry would that kind of thing happens where the product is priced at a certain price, and then at a patent expires, or some other benchmark happens where the price collapses. And, and that’s a unique feature of the industry. And a lot of people don’t understand that, that you shouldn’t look just at the branded price of the product. You should look at the price, the average price of the product over 20 or 25 years, because the generic price needs to be factored in. And I think we have a very good system in the United States where the drug goes generic, the price, the, the it’s a great innovation, and suddenly it’s available to people for pennies.
Joe Selvaggi:
So we, we create one incentive to develop a new drug right. And then that’s the pack. That’s the patent they enjoy. And another path to manufacture the drug in great quantity of low, low costs. So Tucson, one drug.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So the, you know, policymakers that criticized drug prices of branded companies, we could overnight by simply eliminating patents, make drugs, all drugs, extremely cheap, just get rid of all the branded patents. You would not have a new drug discovered. However, if you did that, which we do have the current crop of drugs available for very cheap,
Joe Selvaggi:
We freeze an Amber the current formulary and has no new innovation. Finally, why are there so many drug advertisements on television? Why does the TV tell me what, what drug I should tell my doctor to prescribe to me?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, the, the advertisement was actually annoying to me when I watch football or something else, but there’s, there are so many, it’s counterintuitive to hear this. Some people, but companies go on TV when they’re competing with other drugs, they don’t go. If they, if you discover a first in class new drug, that’s generally not advertised on TV because it’s, there’s going to be demand out there already from the physicians who prescribe it and the patients. But if you invent the third or fourth diabetes drug in a certain therapeutic area in diabetes, you’re going to go on TV and advertise that and highlight the features of why your drug is better and try to get your, your patient, the patient. Who’s watching that ads talk to their doctor about it. It’s part of the competition of the market that people say it doesn’t exist in the drug industry.
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s actually not true. They advertisements are a sign that it is a very competitive market, and those advertisements are very expensive and they would only spend the money if they thought we’re going to distinguish our brand from the other brands already in the market. And let me also just tell the listeners that you know, how they have these terrible side effects that are mentioned in these ads. So they say you could get oily discharge, you could get headaches, you could get this, you could die. That that is not something that pharma companies want to do that as an FDA requirement. The requirement says that if you mentioned what this drug is indicated for. So if it’s indicated for diabetes, you also have to mention any of the side effects that showed up in the clinical trials. Even if those side effects were quite small minuscule and only touched a small percent of the percentage of the clinical trial population. So that’s why you have those ads where they rushed through the, the the side effects, because it’s, it’s an FDA requirement.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wrap it up there. Bill, thank you for joining hub. Hogwan 360 explainer.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Thank you, Joe.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. This is hub Wong 360. I’m now joined by pioneer institutes, bill Smith, bill. We’re going to talk about quality adjusted life years. What are qualities?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Joel qualities are a cost-effectiveness methodology that developed in many of the European countries that have national health services. And if you know anything about national health services in some of these countries like great Britain, they have trouble paying for many of the products because they’re free many of the therapies because they’re free and there’s high demand. So they tried to invent a cost-effectiveness system to rate and value different therapies and qualities are the most commonly used.
Joe Selvaggi:
Why are they pop problematic for patients?
Dr. Bill Smith:
So qualities qualities measure the value of a drug based on its ability to prolong your life and to improve the quality of your life. So you may sound, they may say, oh, that sounds commonsensical, but actually it’s not. So if if you’re 30 years old, you have more life years and you can live longer potentially. So a therapy for a 30 year old may be valued more highly than a therapy for a 70 year old. Same is true on the quality of life side. If you’re living with a disability and someone else’s not living with a disability, the medicine for the person not living with a disability may be rated more highly because it doesn’t have the person doesn’t have quality of life issues. So it gets problematic for a bunch of different populations. And I can go into details. I found the same infirmities in the quality in cancer, as well as rare diseases.
Joe Selvaggi:
Now, what countries use Qualys?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it was famously invented in great Britain. But most, most countries use it. The Canadians new Zealanders Australians the one major exception to the use of qualities I think is Germany. And not surprisingly Germany is second to the United States in the available availability of new therapies to patients. They don’t block access to new drugs as much as the countries that do use the quality.
Joe Selvaggi:
Now, are there alternatives to qualities in establishing the value of drugs?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, there, there were a lot of people that try to come up with cost-effectiveness models. I am a, I’m a kind of market guy, and I think we should,
Joe Selvaggi:
We are all are here at pioneer.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah. The common wisdom is smarter than the economist with a slide rule. And so I think the market tends to sort out patients, patients, families, physicians payers pharma companies, all of those actors have different opinions about the value of a medicine. And it ends up getting decided based on the market. You know, if there’s high demand by patients and physicians, health plans are more likely to cover it. If there’s an, a low demand health plans are not likely to cover it. This recent drug approved by Biogen is an example of that. They were hoping it would sell well in the commercial world. And a lot of a lot of physicians didn’t prescribe it and they had very low numbers and there wasn’t high demand. So a lot of health plans are not covering in the commercial world
Joe Selvaggi:
And with the widespread use of qualities in the U S impact research and development. And if so, what drug classes would be most impacted?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, if the the quality methodology that’s adopted is adopted by the Institute for clinical and economic review, which is the U S kind of home base of qualities, if that methodology were adopted, I’d be most concerned about the R and D on rare disease drugs, because rare disease drugs have a very unique business model. You might have three or four or 5,000 patients. It’s a super rare disease. And a company might spend $500 million or a billion dollars developing the drug, and then you only have three or 5,000 customers. So the price of that drug is going to be very high. The methodology used by the quality, in the case of rare disease drugs, don’t have threshold monetary thresholds high enough to to capture those rare disease, drugs, and the business model of rare disease, drugs. And you know, given that, that cell therapies and gene therapies are the hottest and most promising and most exciting discoveries out there happening, those are rare disease, drugs, and they’re going to be more expensive. And if the quality quashed them, they would quash a lot of important cures.
Joe Selvaggi:
So to wrap up what would you say are the winners and losers when qualities used based on your observation, both here in the U S where we do not use them and around the world where they do, who are the winners?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, the number one loser is, is patients that there’s no doubt about that because nations that use qualities have poor access to the latest medications that get approved to there. There’s just no doubt about that. That’s demonstrated the winners in the use of qualities are probably the politicians who are trying to cut the healthcare budget, and they need to fig leaf that has the sound of being scientific. And the use of quality has this crazy scientific or around it. We’re, we’re crunching numbers. We’re economists, we’re, we’re putting data into the computer, and we’re going to come up with a number that values that drug, and that allows politicians to make cuts in healthcare services and access to therapeutics under the cover of scientific objectivity.
Joe Selvaggi:
But we’ll leave it there. Thank you very much for being on Hubwonk 360, Bill. Thank you, Joe.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. If you enjoyed today’s episode, there are several ways to support the show and pioneer Institute. It be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to a bunk on your iTunes pod catcher, if you’d like to make it easier for others to find how long it would be great, if you would offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share hub along with friends, if you have ideas or suggestions or comments for me about future episode topics, you’re welcome to email me at hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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Today, there’s an even greater opportunity to build on your impact. Today is Giving Tuesday, the biggest day to give back of 2021. I hope you’ll join us in celebrating this global day of generosity and supporting the causes you care most about.
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This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Nicholas Basbanes, author of the 2020 literary biography, Cross of Snow: A Life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. He shares why poetry – from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Homer to Dante, Shakespeare, Longfellow, Emily Dickinson, and Langston Hughes – may well be the most influential, enduring form of written human expression. He then provides brief highlights of Longfellow’s life, and why he was often regarded as the most popular and recognizable “fireside poet” New England has ever produced. They discuss the tragic death of his second wife Frances Appleton in 1861, and his lasting importance as among our nation’s most celebrated poets, literary figures, and translators of Dante. They review Longfellow’s well-known poems, including “The Wreck of the Hesperus” and “Paul Revere’s Ride,” recited by countless generations of schoolchildren, and their wider cultural impact on interest in poetry in American schools. They also discuss Longfellow’s 1842 anti-slavery work, Poems on Slavery, and his close friendship with abolitionists such as U.S. Senator Charles Sumner; as well as other notable works such as “Evangeline,” and “The Jewish Cemetery at Newport,” that celebrate religious liberty and inclusiveness. Basbanes concludes with a reading from his Longfellow biography.
Stories of the Week: Many state education officials are seeking guidance from the U.S. Department of Education on how to meet the accountability requirements under the Every Student Succeeds Act after COVID-related testing disruptions. In Utah, student achievement on state assessments has declined across all grades, subject areas, and student groups in 2021 compared to 2019 (tests were not administered during 2020).
Guest:
Nicholas Basbanes is the author of ten critically acclaimed works of cultural history, with a particular emphasis on various aspects of books and book culture. A Gentle Madness: Bibliophiles, Bibliomanes, and the Eternal Passion for Books, his first book, was a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award for nonfiction in 1995, and was a New York Times Notable Book. On Paper: The Everything of Its Two Thousand Year History (2013) was one of three finalists for the Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Nonfiction, and was named a best book of the year by seven major publications. In 2016, he was awarded a Public Scholar research fellowship by the National Endowment for the Humanities, his second NEH grant, for work on Cross of Snow: A Life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (2020). As Christoph Irmscher wrote in his The Wall Street Journal review, it’s “Inspired … superbly sympathetic… Longfellow is the perfect poet for our current moment… Basbanes writes about him with generosity, gentleness, and grace.”
The next episode will air on Wednesday, December 1st with guest, Matthew Chingos, who directs the Center on Education Data and Policy at the Urban Institute.
Tweet of the Week:
NEW REPORT ALERT: @usedgov study of public school funding & spending for FY2018 & 19. Average per-pupil funding continued its steady increase to $14,347. Funding is significantly lower for #CharterSchools than district-run schools. https://t.co/KeZxo0Lp7p
— Patrick Wolf (@P_Diddy_Wolf) November 18, 2021
News Links:
How did the COVID-19 pandemic affect student performance? Utah data is ‘sobering and concerning’
States Look to Ed Department for Guidance on Restarting Testing and Accountability After Two Years of Pandemic-Related Interruptions
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Cara: Dear listeners. Welcome to another episode of the learning curve with me, Cara Candal, and the fabulous Gerard Robinson, who I have to say, I recently got to see live in person, which is just absolutely amazing to see so many people live and in person, but especially you, my good friend, Gerard, how are you doing today?
[00:00:19] Gerard Robinson: Doing well. It was good to finally see you not on a screen and I barely see you. But it was good to break bread and talk shop. Yes. No, but I’m just
[00:00:29] Cara: like now, you know what I look like, because the last time we saw each other in person before this was years and years ago, so you know how the pandemic has aged me, but George don’t laugh.
[00:00:46] Listen, we’re coming up on Thanksgiving. Obviously. This is we’re recording this. We’re about to. Sit down. Our listeners may be, can listen to a little learning curve with their Turkey this week. I just picked up my Turkey and I was thinking of you on the way home, [00:01:00] because, knowing that , you’ve changed your diet very recently.
[00:01:03] I’m wondering like , what’s on the Robinson table this year. Is it a tofurkey or is it like something that would utterly offend my father’s sensibilities? I would have to say with that, I would probably eat what’s your specialty.
[00:01:14] GR: So for me, I’m going to have plant-based sausage. And so it would totally offend your father’s taste buds, my wife and the girls.
[00:01:24] So last year I made gumbo and this year I was going to make Kubia, which is a appealed fish dish, , and they all said, Nope, we want something that you’ve only made for us once in our life. And guess what? That is. Drum roll fry.
[00:01:41] Cara: Oh, I was going to say vegetarian sausage.
[00:01:45] GR: actually eat a Turkey and chicken stuff, but they’ve only had fried chicken at least made this house once. And so I’m going to make it for them along with some other goodies. So while that may be a normal meal in many households across America, [00:02:00] It is one that we don’t often have. they love chicken, but it’s often baked.
[00:02:03] So,
[00:02:05] Cara: you know, try to have to say, I rarely eat bread chicken, although it is delicious, absolutely scared to death of trying to prepare it. I’ve never eaten. I disclosed this to a friend the other day who we were, uh, looking at a menu, never had chicken. Just something that kind of, I know, it’s that weird.
[00:02:22] Like I made it all through college in the Midwest without a single chicken wing who knows how that happened, but it did. , so it’s interesting. Well, I’m glad to see that you can sort of like mix up the Thanksgiving table. I’m pretty excited. I’m going to be hosting a group of family, friends this year, nothing big at the Candal household.
[00:02:43] We , attempting to make a Turkey for said friends, my father, on the other hand, you know, speaking of offending his sensibilities, I should share with our listeners that this is a man who is so averse to a plant-based diet. for years and years, I’ve been asking him to please get on board, even just like, you know, you can still eat meat and be generally [00:03:00] plant-based the man.
[00:03:00] It’s just not, in his DNA. , but he is known for making a turducken Gerard. Have you ever had your duck and I’m assuming now? No. Yeah, the Turkey stuffed with like a duck stuff. Cause like, Wow. It’s an actual thing. It’s disgusting. Love you, dad. It’s disgusting. Like just, I don’t know, to all of our listeners out there, if you’ve ever had a good thing, a good term docket and let me know, but it is actually a thing.
[00:03:25] will not be, with my parents is Thanksgiving. We will be zooming, but I’m eager to know what’s going to be on the table there. So I know that so many of us this week are finding a little bit of time to. Relax, enjoy family in the middle of what is certain to be a very hectic season. So wishing everybody just a wonderful, relaxing holiday and hopefully this one better than last year when so many of us so saw.
[00:03:52] So few of us. but you know, we are here Gerard to. what’s going on in education this week now you, and I [00:04:00] think we can say that we were at the national summit on education hosted by selling the ed last week. It was, , I have to say, I give props to, as, our listeners know, Excel, net is my, is, uh, something that I do during the day, a job that I love very much.
[00:04:14] And I think it was just a really wonderful. Display of, thought leadership on so many levels. some really great speakers. and one of the things, one of the panels that we, one of the things we confronted them, one of our strategy sessions at the national summit , on education, was accountable.
[00:04:30] Was accountability and testing and what the heck is going on. And that relates to my story of the week, Gerard, which is from the 74 by Linda Jacobson. And the title is states. Look to ed department for guidance on restarting testing and accountability after two years. Of pandemic related interruptions.
[00:04:50] So we’ve talked about testing on this show. We’ve talked about accountability. We haven’t talked a whole heck of a lot about what’s going to happen now that most schools are reopen , and [00:05:00] most kids are back to some new version of normal and what this article is discussing. Is the fact that while most schools are testing and many did last year, too many schools and districts tested last year, we know that by and large, there’s just two years of lost test score data.
[00:05:16] And, in the department of education, the federal department of education, In the first year, obviously in 2020, some waivers from testing and accountability from ESSA, we’re the, every student succeeds act, which is the accountability system under which, states are accountable under, federal law.
[00:05:33] So meaning that’s how they get their title $1. But, , We know that states were granted waivers. Now this education department, secretary Cordona has, sent a pretty strong signal that tests are going to happen, and we’re not going to be granting a lot more waivers. So that leaves a question in everybody’s mind, we can get the test and we can get results of the test, but we don’t know how to hold schools and districts accountable for growth.
[00:05:58] If we don’t have, if we’re missing two years of [00:06:00] data, because we need to see what’s happening year over year. And as we also know to further complicate issues, Lots of kids are missing. So just a whole host of issues that states are facing right now. And not a lot of answers. States are really waiting to find out what is going to happen next.
[00:06:19] So, , we interesting to watch, , testing season is going to be honest before we know it. And certainly we need to get back to. And norm where, , accountability systems, that the thing that they do best is they shine a light on pockets of underperformance. So I’m really curious, right. As a former commissioner, as a former secretary of education, what kind of accountability system, , what kind of guidance would you like to see from the feds going forward on this
[00:06:45] GR: issue?
[00:06:46] I appreciate the fact that the fed for a couple of years, Said we’re going to hold harmless. I think that was the right decision. , I do understand why the secretary says, listen, we’ve got to do something and we have to do it kind of smartly [00:07:00] the benefit that he has today, that let’s say a decade ago. , we did not.
[00:07:05] Is, you have a number of think tanks, a number of nonprofit organizations and universities and research one schools, and also at HBC use who have professors who wake up and go to sleep every night, thinking about assessment. And if you troll the internet, you’ll see some of those professors aren’t waiting for peer review journals to give them the okay to publish their work.
[00:07:28] They’re actually putting out their ideas on how to address. For what tests could have been if all students were a test at the same time and they’ve come up with different economic, , social and academic based models for assessment. So I’m really, I really can’t weigh into this one because testing someone right now, And the pandemic is just radically different.
[00:07:51] But I would say, look to scholars at schools who are starting to put this out. So that’s part one, part two at the state [00:08:00] level, they have a lot automatic. one of the things you and I and chance to do while we were there were talked to people who are at the school level at the state level. And they were saying across the board, we have so much money.
[00:08:11] We don’t know what to do. And I can tell you in American education, that’s not usually sentence that you hear. It’s usually we don’t have enough. And then ever something else will follow. So with all of this money, there are people, again, you can invest in under the guise of COVID relief to make sure we stay in line with the parameters of the funding.
[00:08:32] There are people out there who’ve really, really thought about this. And I would say you have a number of retired teachers and principals, , who be equally interested. So I’d say use local.
[00:08:42] Cara: I love it. Also a great opportunity with this relief money to rethink assessment. I mean, it’s like one of the primary things that.
[00:08:50] school districts and school teachers and parents across the country love to hate as important as accountability systems are. But this is I think, a really grand opportunity to figure out [00:09:00] how do we get more innovative in our assessments? A close friend of mine likes to say fewer better assessments, right?
[00:09:06] So that we can still have those sort of summited data that as I say, help us understand what’s going on under the hood in school districts to make school, make sure that all children are being served without sort of. Having to continue to adhere to this testing regimen that causes anxiety. And quite frankly, sometimes perverse incentives for teachers to do things like teach to the test, which of course isn’t what we wanted in the first place.
[00:09:30] So I would be really excited to see if some of those local stakeholders that you mentioned can offer up ideas for not only how we hold schools accountable, but how we do so using. Different more innovative assessments designed for the future. So I know you’ve got a story this week. I think about a state Utah that is actually doing some really cool stuff in terms of, online learning, innovative assessments, all of the other things.
[00:09:56] What are you thinking about in that crazy?
[00:09:58] GR: Well, speaking of Utah, I had a [00:10:00] chance, , in addition to speaking to, , ESA leaders, , at the session you held, I also had an opportunity to moderate a panel focused on assessments, opportunity and personalized learning. And one of the three speakers was Dr.
[00:10:12] Carrie camp. who’s the director of K-12. Virtual learning for the Utah department of education. As many of you know, Julie Young has been a guest on our show. She was also my panel, but those two have partnered, uh, so that they can actually work to use technology as a way of trying to close the learning gap.
[00:10:32] And I should also say, we had, Denise forte, who is the interim CEO at education trust on the panel. So my story is all about. Data, but when you read what Margie Cortez had to say, she put in quotes, sobering and concerning. And that’s actually a phrase that was mentioned by representative Lowry, snow.
[00:10:52] Who’s a Republican from Santa Clara and co-chair of the Utah legislatures education interim committee. So [00:11:00] Utah is a high-performing state. They had a lot of great things, but they also have a number of socioeconomic challenges. Well, will you talk about the pandemic? It really impacted people across the board.
[00:11:11] Now, Utah was a state where a number of students were in person. And so the state said, let’s just assess exactly where we are and then figure out who took tests, who did not, and what happened? Well, when the representative said sobering and concerning, she was really clear. So for example, amongst high school juniors, 70% fewer.
[00:11:34] Took the sat college exam in 2021 compared to 2019. And if you look at the state average composite score declined, by 0.29, points, which is comparable to about one month of lost instruction. So then we talk about the Utah aspire plus tests, and this is administered to students in grades nine and 10.
[00:11:55] It had the sharpest decline in participation with 10% fewer. Students taking the [00:12:00] test in 2021 compared to 2029, but that’s not really the horrible, outcomes. Listen to this girl, mathematics performance dropped 46%, 10 and 37% in grade nine. English language arts performance worsened by 14% in both grades.
[00:12:19] And so in the state, they have something called rise assessments, and that’s short for readiness improvement, success, empowerment, and they’re administered to students in grades three to eight. They also unfortunately saw a sharp decline with 57. decline in sixth grade math and a 45% drop in fifth grade math.
[00:12:40] So the state is trying to figure out well, now that. This is the case. What do we do well to take things a step further, the Utah board of education and the national center for the improvement of educational assessment. They said, well, guess what folks it’s likely that the figures you’re discussing underestimates the true pandemic [00:13:00] effect, because it’s only based upon students who took the test in 20, 20, 20, 21.
[00:13:05] So when we’re speaking about how to look at learning loss, we have to find a new way of trying to assess it. So there is a professor at Harvard university named Andrew Holt, and he said, listen, let’s try to apply my method to the rise tests and to Utah. So according to hole, he suggested two metrics once you to include quote, a fair trend adjustment.
[00:13:32] And this is the account for changes in the testing population. And the second is an equity check and the goal here is an attempt to estimate. To the best way possible, a best case academic performance scenario for students who did not take the 2021 tests because he believes by doing so, you’re going to provide a gauge for the impact of missing students on the overall academic outcomes.
[00:13:57] And so, as the report goes, wherever the [00:14:00] story goes further, it just says that the state’s got to really think differently about how to do things. So there are three takeaways for me. Number one, holds assessment is one example that I remember. In response to you without mentioning his name of looking at university-based scholars who are trying to provide, One way of working with this number two, they also identify that even those students in Utah for the most part were in school more often than not a number of the students who filled out the survey identify that, , they sometimes were quarantine and had their education interrupted.
[00:14:35] And we dig further into the story. It said that the highest achievement occurred amongst students . Who were in-person but also had fewer interruptions, therefore being in place in school made a difference. The third is while no one is saying this in the article in Cortez definitely is not. I’m really wondering, are we trying to somehow say maybe we shouldn’t assess these students one more year [00:15:00] because things are still tight.
[00:15:02] I agree, but I want to make sure that at some point we don’t use the pandemic as a reason to maybe to go to your three, without holding some level of accountability and some level of, Assessment in place. So, you know, we’ll see, , last part is, you know, they did in by saying quote, the learning acceleration necessary cannot be left to teachers and principals alone, school leaders, educators, local communities will need support and resources to sustain a necessary intervention will be on the time of.
[00:15:32] And we’re actually funds run out a lot of money there. The smartest thing to do is just re-imagine what you would do, because I’m not sure we’re going to have so much money at one time point into schools. And so if we’re going to think about assessments and we’re looking at Utah, let’s just make sure that as we’re moving forward with this money, we’re not putting the pause too long.
[00:15:54] Accountability.
[00:15:56] Cara: couldn’t agree more Gerard and actually I think that there is an [00:16:00] enormous risk. I think that there are some vested interests that would like to see a commonality go away all together. Let’s just swing that pendulum right back to like the late 1970s early 1980s would failed and failed attempt at accountability until.
[00:16:13] Wasn’t really until 2001 on the heels of some states like Texas and Massachusetts and others implementing these systems. Right. It wasn’t until no child left behind that, we really had information about schools. And I think that’s the huge danger here. We might also have to rethink the different ways of holding schools accountable, because absolutely we want to know about student performance, but, , in this particular.
[00:16:37] If schools aren’t even trying, if they aren’t even trying to understand or to share their data or to demonstrate that they’re doing something for kids. And I think we all need to be a little bit skeptical about what’s going on and figure out how to hold schools accountable in myriad ways, both quantitative and qualitative, , without of course Focusing so much on accountability that we pose additional burdens.
[00:16:59] [00:17:00] we want to do it in a way that lifts burdens per students and teachers where tests and accountability can become a tool for future learning. So, well, I know we could talk about this forever Gerard, because it’s fascinating and it’s going to be, it’s going to be just. Turkey day conversation.
[00:17:14] It’s so many homes. I know that’s, everybody’s going to have accountability on the mind. , Gerard, we have got a very new England guests coming up after this. if any of you are, I know even those of you who live in warmer climates often, , what’s the song I’m dreaming of a white Christmas.
[00:17:31] If you listen to this kind of music around the holiday season. So for those of us up here in new England, it’s. It’s dark and we’re going to be, , huddled around, the Thanksgiving table, looking for some warmth and today’s author he’s written about, for example, Henry Wadsworth, Longfellow, great new England poet.
[00:17:48] Many of us know his work without knowing we even know his work. We’re going to be speaking with Nicholas Basbanes coming up right now.[00:18:00]
[00:18:21] Learning curve listeners. Welcome back. And today we are with Nicholas Basbanes. He’s the author of 10 critically acclaimed works of cultural history with a particular emphasis on various aspects of books and book culture. I just love it. A gentle madness, bibliophiles biblio mains in the eternal passionate.
[00:18:40] His first book was a finalist for the national book critics circle award for non-fiction in 1995 and was a New York times notable. On paper, the everything of its 2000 year history was one of three finalists for the Andrew Carnegie metal for excellence in non-fiction and was named best book of the year by seven major publications.
[00:18:59] , in [00:19:00] 2016, he was awarded a public scholar research fellowship by the national endowment for the humanities. His second NEH grant for work on cross of snow. A life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow published in 2020 as Kristoff erasure wrote in the wall street journal review. Inspired superbly. Longfellow is the perfect poet for our current moment.
[00:19:21] Basbanes writes about him with generosity, gentleness and grace, Nicholas. Basbanes welcome to the show.
[00:19:28] Nicholas: Thank you for that wonderful introduction.
[00:19:30] Cara: Yeah, we’re really happy to have you. I think, especially, I mean, I sit up here in new England. My co-host is not, he gets to talk about his home state of Virginia quite a bit, but Longfellow especially feels very new England and inappropriate for this.
[00:19:44] Cultural moment, but this time of year, so we’re really excited to have you now. I don’t know if I can call myself a bibliophile, but boy, do I love to read? And the history of books is a fascinating topic. You’ve written several books about the history of books, [00:20:00] so share for our listeners. and the educators and students that we have, who listen to this show from the epic of Gilgamesh and Homer to Dante Shakespeare, Longfellow, Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes poetry might be the most influential.
[00:20:17] Enduring form of written human expression. Explain that what’s
[00:20:20] Nicholas: well, I, think you hit the nail on the head there, when you talk about influential and enduring, I think, you know, enduring would begin with that. You mentioned Gilgamesh, the Sumerian epic. Well, that, that is a, an oral originally and an oral tradition.
[00:20:36] An epic poem, which we call an epic poem and was composed 5,000 years ago, which is at the Dawn of, writing. , it was an existence about 2000 BC and we have our first recorded. writing of it and which have been preserved on baked clay tablets from the Sumerian era dating to 1000 BC.
[00:20:56] , that was written over a thousand years before Homer wrote the [00:21:00] Iliad and the Odyssey, which again, they’re all. Poems designed to be read aloud or to be sung as songs and then re and then recorded down, documented, on a variety of a recording surfaces. We use paper today, but we’ve used all sorts of recording, and and we talk about holler , , and the Odyssey and the Iliad. We have the, uh, the indeed by virtual the opening line. As I sing, I sing to you of arms and the man that when you think of any number of. National epics. I mean, you talk about, mentioned Virgil’s at need. You have Dante and writing in the vernacular in the 14th century, the divine comedy, you know, the song of Roland, the song of Roland, again, very important 11th century France, the poem of the Cid in Spain.
[00:21:42] So when you think of national poems that celebrate a national identity, it is invariably through poetry and beginning going back, as we said, thousands of. And the oral tradition. And let’s just, just think who was the national poet of England? Well, he’s the Dramatists, the playwright, [00:22:00] William Shakespeare, but fundamentally he was a poet writing, a blank verse.
[00:22:05] I ethic pentameter, all of his great speeches and all of the great plays are inverse. And of course we call them the great Bard of Avon. So this is the tradition from which Henry. Longfellow Springs. he was determined to write a great American, epic, drawing on distinctively, uniquely American traditions and customs.
[00:22:27] And he attempted this. And I think he succeeded in a number of instances, beginning with Evangelina and, the first, of his long narrative poems and He follows that with, , Hiawatha , and he follows that with. the courtship of miles Standish, each one of these, a distinctively American theme drawing in American traditions and speaking to the American people of, of their shared cultural identity.
[00:22:51] So I guess that’s a long roundabout way of answering your question, but answer it in the.
[00:22:57] Cara: Yeah, no, but, and you’re also bringing me back to [00:23:00] my, I don’t want to say how long ago, but days of course, as an English major in some of these works that you’ve listed as being, you know, songs. , certainly, really, if you’ve ever sat with the.
[00:23:11] And you’ve sat with the texts, especially in a group of other people, you realize that they of course lend themselves to being read aloud and one can understand and feel so much more of it. I also listening to you. And since we do have some educators who are out there in our audience, I want to put in a plug for something that my kids wonderful school does.
[00:23:29] And that is poem in your pocket day. And the ground rules are simply that you have to have a poem in your pocket and anybody can stop you at any time. You to read that poem. So going back to that great oral tradition. Now I’ve already asked you a little bit about Longfellow, but we want to talk a lot more about him.
[00:23:46] so your biography of Longfellow is considered definitive. and I think that many would say he is regarded as perhaps America’s most recognizable fireside poet, of course, from new England. Talk to us [00:24:00] a little bit about Longfellow. Life. he had the tragic death of his second wife. And, what is it that made him such a celebrated literary figure in our.
[00:24:11] Nicholas: Well, I think he is. Yes, he is. He was easily the most celebrated. That’s a good, that’s a very important word. Do you celebrated poet of the 19th century? He was more than a poet. He was a public figure. And I think in that regard, he goes, he transcends poetry. He was read, he was appreciated. He was beloved by every demographic and by people of all ages.
[00:24:34] Children. He wrote most accessibly and invitingly. But when you think of, people of lawyers, professionals, uh, president Lincoln, going into the 1860s was brought to tears. When he was read, the building of the ship and that wonderful line in there saying sail on or union strong and great. You know, we talk about president Lincoln.
[00:24:55] We talk about it in England, queen Victoria. So Longfellow was [00:25:00] an American poet, but beloved not only in the United States as a cultural figure, but throughout the world, his poems were translated and read and no fewer than 30 languages, throughout the world. When he visited England in 1868, he was received by queen Victoria, who might.
[00:25:17] And how the servants, the domestic staff and the Windsor castle were hiding behind curtains to get a vantage point, to see the great American poet. And she asked them later, how do you know this poet? Well, they all knew his poetry and they all loved his poetry. , and that had a lot to do with his.
[00:25:35] who he was, he was a man of extraordinary decency. he was a very moral person. He was born in 1807. He graduated from Boden college in Maine at the age of 18. He graduated at the age of 18. He was a. Uh, class at one of his classmates and B and later in life, one of his great, great friends was Nathaniel Hawthorne.
[00:25:56] That was quite a class credit graduating class at Bowman. And there were other [00:26:00] great achievers on his graduation day. Uh, prior to graduation day, he gave an address because he graduated with honors and the topic of his address was, are native writers. Even at the age of 18, he was calling for the creation and the development and the evolution of a distinctively American literature.
[00:26:22] We were still in the early years of the 19th century, you know, when America was still in the very earlier in the infancy of developing and national literary tradition and he was mindful of. And he wanted from these earliest days, from the earliest stages that we have records of him. He wanted to be a writer and a professional writer, and he didn’t, he came from a very distinguished fan.
[00:26:44] but he was not from a family of great wealth and his father who was a lawyer in Portland, Maine, you know, insisted you can’t make a living doing this. He wanted him to be like himself, a lawyer, a young Henry. , I didn’t argue with them because, but he respected his father, but , they reached a consensus.
[00:26:59] [00:27:00] Well, you’ll come study in the, in, in my lawyer office. And meanwhile, maybe you can , take some graduate studies at Harvard and you can study literature. Commencement date on the graduation date and he’s 18 years old. The trustees, , at Bowdoin college vote to establish a professor. And modern European languages and bell let, there were only three other colleges in the United States at that time that had such a program, Harvard, William, and Mary, and the university of Virginia.
[00:27:28] They had received a bequest and lo and behold, they recommended that young Henry Longfellow age 18, a B. Be appointed to that position. He had already distinguished himself and translating, , some odes , , from the Latin, , Horace in particular. , and he had impressed everyone , , and they thought he would be perfect for the job, but there was a catch.
[00:27:49] He would have to go to Europe. He’s 18 years old, 1825 at his own expense. And to learn the languages, he would be expected to take. And because he was a very [00:28:00] decent, moral, trustworthy young man. I mean, consider sending your child abroad at the age of 18 and 1825 and spending what turned out to be three and a half years in Europe, traveling through multiple countries, spending time in Spain and Italy and Germany and England and France and everywhere he goes.
[00:28:19] He not only learns these language. And so he can come back and teach them and he will learn six. He will learn six fluently this time around and he will do this again. 10 years later, before he takes over a similar position at Harvard, he ultimately will know 12 languages read them fluently. And his library at Longfellow was in Cambridge.
[00:28:41] So there are over 10,000 books in 45 different dialects in a dozen or so languages, all of which he could read fluently and speak fluently. , , he came back. , he taught these languages, , , at Boden for a seven, years or so. He’s began to introduce to American readers. This is important [00:29:00] because not only did he want to develop an American literary tradition, he was determined to adapt.
[00:29:06] Borrow not to, I don’t, I don’t mean borrow in the sense of plagiarize or poach material, but traditions forms of, , , a poetic form and meter. And he learned them and he, would absorb these and he was determined to absorb all of these different traditions. He hoped to create one that would be distinctively American.
[00:29:25] And I think to a great extent, he succeeded at that, but at the same time, and we can argue, and I do in the book that he is arguably, I think our first, , long before that this phrase enters the language, uh, multiculturalist, because he believes he wrote to his sisters from Europe. He said the moral language is a man who.
[00:29:45] Of course you could say, man or woman, the more languages a person knows the more he or she as a man or a woman. , the more languages that you learn, , the more you are a human being and not only languages, but literature is what he meant. [00:30:00] Washington Irving and Spain, Washington Irvin gave him great advice.
[00:30:04] Young men don’t just learn the languages, but learn the literature. So this, I think this trip to Europe at the age of 18, he comes back at the age of 22. He’s a full professor at Boden college and he so distinguishes himself. , he is credited with introducing to American readers, , the works of no fewer than 25 German authors, including Guetta and Schiller.
[00:30:26] He, is credited with introducing so many different Spanish writers and traditions to American readers. There were no textbooks available while he was at Boden in the seven years, he taught them. He translated his own, his own books. The very first books he publishes are his own translations from these various languages as premise.
[00:30:45] So he can pass among his students. And then you can still find them in antiquarian circles. I mean, they’re very important books. So this is how he begins to go back when he arrived in the Bowden campus. And he started that he was a freshmen at the age of 15 or [00:31:00] 14 or so he was already a published poet, even though his father discouraged.
[00:31:05] From being a writer, he wrote poetry. He submitted these poems to various newspapers. And at the age of 13, his first poem was published in the Portland newspaper. So we start with this young man, he then, and then after seven or eight, Lo and behold, he w he’s eager to leave. He loves me and he’s from Maine, but he feels after having traveled and visited all these world capitals, he wants to perform on a larger stage.
[00:31:31] And, , he got out of the woodwork quite literally. He is offered a similar position at Harvard to succeed the great George techno and the Smith professorship. And now he is required to go to. Again, and to learn more languages quite specifically, to become more proficient than the Germany and the. He travels.
[00:31:50] And he takes with him, his young wife, , his first wife, Mary store, a Potter, a long fellow, a young, lovely woman, a neighbor of his and [00:32:00] Maine and tragically. She dies. And we really, because they are very reticent people, we know very little about her pregnancy, whether even she was pregnant when they set sail, but six months after they arrived in Europe, she had a miscarriage and she died.
[00:32:15] Horribly, , 54 or so days later, and Henry was totally distraught and he sold it on. He continued his work, , hoping to try to make a long story short here, but he’s traveling to take a break before returning to teach at Harvard. He meets this young woman. And, , in Switzerland, Francis Appleton, Longfellow traveling with her family.
[00:32:36] She’s a beacon hill, a young woman, , from a very, very prominent, , a wealthy, new England family and Henry falls for her , in the biggest way, uh, because she is a brilliant young woman. I mean, , she, herself has been tough. Bye magnificent private tutors. She speaks multiple languages.
[00:32:54] She translates as well with him, some poem from the German, and we couldn’t be more [00:33:00] impressed. There’s a courtship. Well, we call it a courtship. It was only one way. It took seven years for these two to get together. , I spent a good bill, did a bit of time. , I’m very proud of the fact that we won’t probably get to the, to this and the time we are talking here, but I regard this as much a, biography of Fanny Appleton, Longfellow as much as it is of Henry and that we don’t, we won’t have time also to get deeply into the choice of the title cross of snow.
[00:33:27] But this is a tribute. He writes to her 18 years after her horrible death. After 18 years of marriage. , in which, which also coincide with the 18, most productive years of his life, it was, it w it was 18 years of extraordinary product. They, I I’ve just written finished, , an essay, which I hope to be published in a major literary journal.
[00:33:51] I expect it will be, but I call it meeting of the minds, the intellectual partnership, if Henry was with Longfellow and [00:34:00] Francis Appleton Longfellow, because she was, I won’t say she was his collaborator, but she read everything. That he wrote, she commented on it. She advised him in several instances.
[00:34:11] She even proposed poems that he wrote one of which, the arsenal of Springfield. She was quite the Abbott. She was a abolitionist. she was , fiercely against arms and warfare of, , any form. And, uh, and all of these, all of these factors had a great impact on Henry. She died tragically and in a, horrible way, their life.
[00:34:33] I have a chapter in the book. I called chem a lot on the Charles. I mean, life couldn’t have been any better than he is at the top of his game. Uh, oh, the three narrative poems. I mentioned they’re all written and published during this period. So many other of his most famous works, Paul Revere’s right.
[00:34:47] The building of the ship, these all, these are all written and published during the year, these years. In July of 1861, just a few months after the outbreak of the civil war, they have now five children, three [00:35:00] daughters, , two sons, and on a hot July day , this was a custom and these days she is sealing, sealing.
[00:35:09] A little snippets of golden here from one of her daughters, her daughter, Edith Edith with golden hair. And she is attempting to seal , these locks of, , , , blonde hair, into small envelopes with a candle. And somehow because only the girls were witnessed to this, the young. Uh, some, some dripping wax fell on her dress.
[00:35:29] This crinoline dress, these dresses, which were terribly flammable in an instant, she burst into flames. I ran a shrieking to the study and long thoughts were Henry was taking an afternoon nap. Try and furiously to put out the flames. All he had was a little throw rug. He’s severely burned, and , she just very tragically, , passes away the next morning.
[00:35:53] And in an instant you talk about a night Delek life being turned upside down. Uh, This was [00:36:00] now the second loss , of a woman that he loved dearly. He loved his first wife dearly. And now this woman with his bride of 18, when he married Fanny, he wrote in his journal, it was a Vita Nova, a new life of happiness.
[00:36:15] And now all of a sudden that was good. But he never, lost his faith or his courage or , what he had to do. He was now a single father with a young five young children. He wrote to a very close friend. He said to the, out to the world, outside outwardly, I am kind of. But inwardly, I am bleeding to death.
[00:36:34] And so now he turns to other things for the short run, he turns to translation returns to translation because , he’s translated many other works and it becomes the first American to translate the whole of Dante into English. And if he did nothing else, if he didn’t ever write a single poem of his own, his significance as a literary.
[00:36:57] For that alone, , would elevate him [00:37:00] to us to a statute where we would have to pay attention to him. I interviewed a number of people for this book, and I can’t tell you, including Harold bloom, the great Harold bloom, the late Harold bloom, , Dean of American critics who felt that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow’s translation of Dante and his view was the best because of his accuracy and his fidelity to what Dante was trying to say.
[00:37:23] To his readers, not just what the translator thought his readers were trying to, pass on to the, to the readers. Henry lives for another 22 or 23 is after the death of Fanny, but those years are so central. And on the 18th anniversary of her death, they were married for 18 years.
[00:37:41] And numbers were very important to him one night and his, and the sadness in his bedroom. He writes out this sonnet, the cross of snow from which I derive there, the title of my book, and it’s attributed to his wife. And it’s a, classic sonnet of 14 lines. And he’s contemplating [00:38:00] two paintings, one that hangs in the second floor bedroom of his well.
[00:38:05] It’s across from his bed and only he sees this painting. I mean, it’s a very personal, private part, a painting. That’s the first eight lines of the poem and the final six lines as, a contemplation of a painting known to millions of people, re of the recently discovered mountain in the Colorado Rockies, which somehow displays on its side.
[00:38:25] the figure of a cross and snow, and it’s visible all year round and they’re caused a sensation. So it was this contemplation of these two pictures and what he says in the long sleepless watches of the night, a gentle face, the face of one long dead looks at me from the wall, went round its head, the night lamp casts, a halo of pale light here in this room.
[00:38:45] She died. It never sold more white, never threw monitor demo for. What has led to which repose or Ken and books be read the legend of a life more better day. He switches to the mountain and the distant west. He said there is a mountain in the distant [00:39:00] west that sun defying and its deep ravines displays across the snow upon its side.
[00:39:06] Such as the cross I, where upon my breasts, these 18 years through all the changing scenes and seasons changeless, that’s the day she died. It’s just an amazing poem. When he finished it was so personal. He folded it, put it in an envelope, left it with his personal papers. It was discovered after his death and published posthumously.
[00:39:27] And I thought, not only is this an extraordinary exceptional. To this woman who is such a partner to him, but also one of the finest songs ever written by an American. And I say this, , just, I really challenge anyone to tell me, , an American poet who writes a better sonnet that Henry was with Longfellow.
[00:39:47] he is an absolute master of the sonnet form. Well, speaking
[00:39:51] GR: of Paul’s. My co-host Kara mentioned that she lives in the Boston area. I’ve had a chance to visit and on one visit, I had an opportunity to see [00:40:00] the black soldiers monument in the city. And it was just amazing to think about what, , mainly those.
[00:40:07] formerly enslaved Africans with some of those free man decided to do, to fight against the civil war. And speaking of that in 1842, Longfellow wrote poems on slavery, uh, call them attention to the institution amongst his closest friends was the abolitionists us Senator of Massachusetts Charles summer, who many would know in 1856 was nearly beaten to death on the floor of the Senate because of.
[00:40:32] Anti-slavery speech. Would you talk to us about what teachers, students, even families should know about? Longfellow’s poems on slavery? , his literary, connection with Senator Sumner and his friendship with new England abolitionists
[00:40:48] Nicholas: and. Okay. That’s a great question. And I think I’m really pleased that you asked it because I’ve been asked before by some people why, how can I explain Longfellow’s and this [00:41:00] was an actual question is with, on the matter of slavery, because some people feel that he could have been more, more.
[00:41:08] We’re active in this and the poetry that he wrote in his career, , like Whittier, for instance, more fiery. Well, those poems that you just mentioned, the poems on slavery, seven poems were published in 1842. Now this is 10 years before 10 years before Harriet Beecher stows, uncle Tom’s cabin. And he wrote, about slavery as a horrific institution.
[00:41:29] And there was seven great one called a slave. Dismal swamp in which he hunted me row. That was the words that he used on the run and Ferman lane from repeated beatings lies, crunched in the rank and tangle grass, like a wild. And the layer, he writes another one called the slaves dream and the central image, there is the drivers whip that maintains Otter among the oppressed.
[00:41:52] Another one, he calls the quadroon girl about a young woman who’s taken from her family and brought to, the United States for any number of [00:42:00] different, unspeakable purposes. And my, very favorite of them all as the witnesses. Which describes a sunken ship, half buried in the sands in which lies, skeletons and chains with shackled feet and hands.
[00:42:14] These are the bones of slaves. He writes, they gleaned from the abyss. They cry from the yawning waves. We other witnesses. Now, some people might’ve felt that those weren’t powerful pumps. I think they’re pretty powerful poems and they used imagery and they were powerful enough that one of his publishers refuse to include them in a collection of his works.
[00:42:33] He did stimulate discussion and he was the first American poet to do that. The first American writer of consequence to do that, w they were so, far-reaching and influential that, Whittier his friend and other fireside. Asks him to run for Congress and the Liberty and the under the banner of the Liberty party, which is newly formed, but it was a very, very clear abolitionist party, Longfellow declines.
[00:42:59] [00:43:00] He says, I do not fly under any political banner, his feelings, his convictions were very well-known. Now you ask about Charles Sumner, literary connector it’s beyond literary connection. There was his closest dearest. They were absolutely soulmates. And when, when and Sumner knew Fanny Appleton, they both lived in beacon hill.
[00:43:21] And so he knew the family, but, and as much as he loved her and became very friendly and was as devoted to her as Henry, was he despaired when Henry, when they married, because he was losing, , not losing, he thought he might be losing his closest friend, but Sumner said something to writing a letter to Francis.
[00:43:39] Labor said, do not expect war owes from Longfellow. That is not what Longfellow does. He said, Longfellow speaks to the people on common ground and he speaks for all of them and, and, and all of their convictions, you know, later he writes, , Paul Revere’s ride well, purportedly that. The revolutionary war, [00:44:00] but it’s more than that.
[00:44:00] This is published on the Eve of this, literally on the Eve of the civil war. South Carolina has just has to see seated , from the union and the final six lines of that poem. He says for a born on the night, wind up the past to all our history, to the last, in the hour of darkness and peril in need, the people will waken.
[00:44:20] We’ll wait. Future
[00:44:22] GR: tense and listen, to
[00:44:24] Nicholas: hear the hurrying of beats out of that steep and the midnight message of Paul Revere. He’s talking about preserving the union and the preservation of the union is so important to him and part and parcel of that. Of course. Is there a connection. That people, , human beings are not chattel.
[00:44:41] They are not property. And I just find that, , those poems on slavery, I really underappreciated and undervalued for what they did and for what they performed. And I’m delighted that you asked that question. You mentioned the psycho down a relief up on beacon hill. That’s the 54th Massachusetts regiment.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] You know, only in Boston, I think that you have had something like this happen, where you have , these free blacks, , being encouraged to sign up and to serve. And they March off on beacon hill, Henry was there. He was at his father-in-law’s house and he watched the press. He watched the procession, he cheered them as they marched off to their here.
[00:45:20] , Phaeton and proven to everyone that, , , black people not only could fight, but they could fight honorably and decisively and with great credit. And it was an, extraordinary situation and Henry was fully in support of that, but Sumner was very, very, very important individual in his life.
[00:45:38] And also of course, as we know in the abolition, cause
[00:45:42] GR: not only did Longfellow write about slavery and his child. He also wrote poems that helped people then and now think about religious Liberty, whether it was, events, Dylan, about a Catholic Acadian girl in her search for a lost love. , during the time of the expulsion of the [00:46:00] Acadians to Louisiana fact, my family’s from Louisiana or his 1854 log the Jewish cemetery at Newport.
[00:46:09] Same similar theme, you know, what should we, as educators and students, as families is just people think about these poems and the broader ideas of America and religious.
[00:46:21] Nicholas: Well, thanks. about, what you just asked me, both of these questions. Again, both of these poems deal with Paul American situations.
[00:46:29] Evangelina is this, and this is the first of the three long narrative poems. But think about it. It’s about a Catholic woman, a woman who is now the heroine of an epic poem. This is almost unprecedented, isn’t it? And, and we’re talking about Catholics and, and, and British. What was, you know, at the time.
[00:46:49] Expulsion of the Acadians, you know, British north America. , and of course at the, premise of the story, is that on their wedding? This couple , is separated. He has sent off and [00:47:00] she spends the rest of her life searching for him. Henry heard about that by the way, from his friend, Nathaniel Hawthorne at dinner, and the author gave him the idea for that story and he ran with it.
[00:47:10] And, , we had this magnificent Pullman Longfellow did do with, by the way, in a very interesting meter, a meter of, , dactylic, examiners, which was, the meter , of the class. , the epic poems, the Greek poems, because he wanted to kind of have an impact. It’s this classical epic theme, but this is, this was a poem, a celebration of religious freedom, but also gender.
[00:47:33] , we’re talking about a woman who was, who triumphs in the end, and she’s a very, she never loses her faith or our hope. The Jewish cemetery at Newport is also a very interesting poem. , Discovered this cemetery and Newport Rhode Island in 1850, when he was in Newport with his family for the summer.
[00:47:51] And he went out for a walk and he records this in his diary and he comes across. If it’s still there, if you ever have a chance to get down to Newport this, uh, this Jewish [00:48:00] cemetery, which is established in 1657, I think it was just, uh, not the cemetery, but the synagogue, which remains the oldest standing synagogue.
[00:48:09] And north America. So this, this group of, of a Portuguese Sephardic Jews came to Rhode Island in 1650s, fleeing religious oppression and Europe. And they were welcome in Rhode Island because we’re an island, as you know, was founded by Roger Williams as a Haven, as a place for people of all faiths to assemble and to live.
[00:48:32] And Henry is walking and he sees. Walking down and, uh, and downtown Newport. And he sees this cemetery behind locked gates. By this time, by the way, the Jewish settlement , has scattered. They’re no longer in Newport. This is a consequence of the American revolution. , Newport was a thriving Seaport and after revolution, it wasn’t.
[00:48:50] And so the very, the Jewish merchants , and families went to other cities. So the Jewish community was no longer there, but the synagogue was still there and it is now [00:49:00] active again. But there was this grave rat and he sees. And he sees these inscriptions and he was locked in. There’s a caretaker and the caretaker takes him in and he tells him about some of the names and the descriptions, of course, being a very, um, very knowledgeable, so many different languages and dialects, Henry Henry tells the story of, of these wandering Jewish tribes.
[00:49:22] , and of course there was so much antisemitism, but you won’t find any of that in his poem. It’s exceedingly simple. He writes, with great sensitivity , about the migration of, , not only the Jewish people, but all sorts of, , people that were with, , various faiths and convictions, , escaping and finding Haven, , a Haven in the new world and particularly here.
[00:49:42] So it’s a remarkable poem and a remarkable, very, very, very remarkably sensitive poem. And it written again by ever remarkable sensitive man.
[00:49:56] GR: Well, what else we’d love for you to do is just to read a passage of your choice. [00:50:00]
[00:50:01] Nicholas: Okay. Well, I’ve chosen a little segment, which I think is really appropriate for the season that we’re in.
[00:50:10] It doesn’t really need much of a backstory. It just that it is 1863. it’s during the civil war two weeks after two years after the death of his wife. , and he’s taken care of his children. In the meantime, his oldest son, Charlie has run away and joined the union army and he’s in Virginia, but Henry has also turned off to, to, , doing the tales of a wayside in and his Dante.
[00:50:36] Here we go. 15,000 copies, Henry wrote in his notebook for November 25th, 1863. Marking with those three words, the publication of tales of a wayside in adding that the publishers had dined with him that night to celebrate joining Henry the next day for Thanksgiving dinner with Tom Appleton and Harriet Appleton, who son [00:51:00] Nathan Appleton, Jr.
[00:51:01] Jr. Like Charlie was a junior officer serving on the front line. We drank the health of all the lieutenants in the army of the Potomac Henry road. Charlie having recently returned to duty after a suffering about of camp fever, a term used for a variety of contagious illnesses and demic to the close quarter, military encampments of the period, most severely typhoid fever, which took the lives of more soldiers during the civil war than injuries inflicted.
[00:51:30] Charlotte had fallen grievously ill with one of these elements, not long after receiving his commission word, reaching Henry and Portland on June 11th, where he was visiting with his sister and setting off immediately for Washington. He arrived within a day of hearing the news. Charlie was assigned to a bed and the home of a Unitarian minister.
[00:51:49] Taking a hotel room for himself and me spent the next few weeks by Charlie’s bedside visiting occasionally with Sumner and host of government officials eager to meet him [00:52:00] yesterday. Sunday, I heard the distant Cantonese. Mingling in with the sound of the church bells and the chanting of the choir and the church close by.
[00:52:10] He wrote on June 22nd, a paradox. He would recall six months later when inspired to write Christmas bells adapted many times in the years ahead to say Yuletide tide song most famously by Johnny Marks in 1956. As I heard the bells on Christmas day and recorded that year by Bing Crosby, the opening stands on the song is the same as in Henry’s poem.
[00:52:33] I heard the bells on Christmas day. They’re old familiar carols play and wild and sweet. The words. Repeat of peace on earth. Goodwill to men to stands is typically left out of the Carol speak directly to the horrors of the civil. Then from each black, , Chris at both the cannon thundered in the south and with the sound that Carol’s drowned of peace on earth, Goodwill to men, [00:53:00] it was as if an earthquake rent the Hearthstones of a continent and made for Lauren the households born of peace on earth, Goodwill to men picking up at the next stanza, the song and the poem conclude with hope.
[00:53:15] And in despair, right? Bowed my head. There is no peace on earth. I said for hate is strong and mocks the song of peace on earth, Goodwill to men, then peel the bells more loud and deep. God is not dead nor Duffy sleep that wrong shall fail the right prevail with peace on earth, Goodwill to men. Thank you.
[00:53:40] , I love that poem , and like so many other poems that he wrote, it resonates to this day. You know, when you think of the building of the ship, which is from the 1840s. And he writes that that verse of sail on are union strong and great brings Abraham Lincoln to tears. Franklin Roosevelt is so [00:54:00] moved during world war II, who the darker steps of world war II.
[00:54:02] He writes it out from memory at longhand and sends it to Winston Churchill who reads it before the house of commons prior to the battle of Britain. And you just, so people say, does Longfellow not resonated. Oh, it’s the power of the poet in the 20th century and the 21st century. I don’t think so, but, , that’s just one person’s opinion.
[00:54:41] Cara: And before we leave you all listeners, of course, we have to leave you with a tweet of the week. It is a new report alert. Our friend Patrick Wolf was tweeting about this, which is how it came to our attention. The quote is study of public school funding and spending for fiscal year [00:55:00] 2018 and 19 is out average per pupil.
[00:55:03] Funding continued its steady increase to $14,347 per pupil. Funding is still significantly lower for charter schools than district run schools. And that is a national center for education statistics report, not shocking, , $14,347. Now I know we are in a moment of inflation. But that sounds like pretty big leap from where we were even just 10 years ago.
[00:55:28] And let’s not forget folks that those numbers are way higher in a lot of school districts across the state. And of course they’re lower in some as well. So, those inequities run deep, especially when it comes to charters. Which often suffer from, for example, a lack of facilities funding. we should really be thinking about adjusting for greater equity in our funding, formulas folks.
[00:55:50] Just another thought to leave you with at the Thanksgiving table and Gerard, as you know, next week, we are going to be joined by Matt Chingos of the UrbanInstitute. [00:56:00] Gerard, I hope that you are vegan. Sausage is absolutely delicious. And if you will, my friend, please send a photo of that Friday. I definitely will.
[00:56:09] All right, everybody, listen, I wish you and yours all the best hope you have a wonderful long weekend and eat at least lots of like vegan apple pie. I hope.
Recent Episodes:
In Massachusetts, the Know-Nothing amendments prevent more than 100,000 urban families with children in chronically underperforming school districts from receiving scholarship vouchers that would allow them access to additional educational alternatives. These legal barriers, also known as Blaine amendments, restrict government funding from flowing to religiously affiliated organizations in nearly 40 states and are a violation of the first and fourteenth amendments.
The U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case this year, Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue, that could end these amendments. In 2018, Pioneer produced a 30-minute documentary on the impact of the Blaine amendments on families in Massachusetts, Georgia, and Michigan.
“She’s a good girl. She helps me a lot. She has big, big dreams. I don’t have the money, but she has big dreams. I hope she’s going to get everything, but she works so hard. She works so hard in school.”
“Our family is needing to make some really big sacrifices because we believe this is important, and so, we’re basically going to do whatever it takes… Sometimes we look at each other and go ‘I don’t know if I can do it again another month…’”
“A lot of the families have to sacrifice and work multiple jobs… And just scraping together enough money to just make tuition, just the basics.”
“It is discriminatory, that parents who want to choose an alternative to public school for their children, would not in any way receive any compensation for that, whether it be tax credit, whether it be a voucher…”
In the 1840s, nativist movement leaders formed official political parties and local chapters of the national Native American Party (later the American Party), although they continued to be commonly known as the Know-Nothing Party. Politicians sought to insert provisions into state constitutions against Catholics who refused to renounce the pope. The Know-Nothing movement brought bigotry and hatred to a new level of violence and organization.
The party’s legacy endured in the post-Civil War era, with laws and constitutional amendments it supported, still today severely limiting parents’ educational choices. A federal constitutional amendment was proposed by Speaker of the House James Blaine prohibiting money raised by taxation in any State to be under the control of any religious sect; nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided between religious sects or denominations. These were then named the Blaine Amendments of 1875.
in recent decades, often in response to challenges to school choice programs, the U.S. Supreme Court has demonstrated great interest in examining the issues of educational alternatives and attempts limit parental options. Massachusetts plays a key role in this debate. The Bay State was a key center of the Know-Nothing movement and has the oldest version of Anti-Aid Amendments in the nation, as well as a second such amendment approved in 1917. Two-fifths of Massachusetts residents are Catholic, and its Catholic schools outperform the state’s public schools, which are the best in the nation.
Help families like the Costons in Michigan to end the bigoted Blaine amendments in their state that are blocking tuition scholarships and other types of financial support that would make it possible for families to send their children to high-quality schools that are best suited for their children.
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This week on Hubwonk, host Joe Selvaggi talks with Pioneer Institute’s Visiting Fellow in Life Sciences, Dr. Bill Smith, about his newest research paper, “An “Impending Tsunami” in Mortality from Traditional Diseases,” which sounds the alarm that the public health community’s focus on COVID-19 has caused many to avoid seeking medical attention for other illnesses. As a result, more Americans are dying from fear of COVID than from the disease itself.
Guest:
William S. Smith is Visiting Fellow in Life Sciences at Pioneer Institute. He has 25 years of experience in government and in corporate roles, including as vice president of public affairs and policy at Pfizer, and as a consultant to major pharmaceutical, biotechnology and medical device companies. He held senior staff positions for the Republican House leadership on Capitol Hill, the White House, and in the Massachusetts Governor’s office. He is affiliated as research fellow and managing director with the Center for the Study of Statesmanship at The Catholic University of America (CUA), where he earned his PhD.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk, I’m Joe Selvaggi
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston for nearly two years. Fear of COVID-19 has eclipsed the public health attention to other diseases that afflict and kill far more people than the COVID-19 virus while the public has isolated masks and taking more than 7 billion COVID vaccines globally, traditional threats to life from cancer, diabetes, and heart disease have not gone away. Unfortunately, since the outbreak in early 2020 many individuals, fear of COVID have led the, to avoid doctor visits, screenings, and treatment that could identify and treat their disease, this neglect of other lethal, but treatable conditions may already be leading to more Americans to die from fear of COVID. Then we’ll die from COVID itself. How can public health officials correct course from a message that is discouraged all discretionary treatment during the initial phase of the pandemic to one that sounds a loud alarm that we must return our attention to detection and treatment of traditional and far more deadly threats to human health. I guess today’s Dr. Bill Smith visiting life science fellow at Pioneer Institute in his new research piece entitled an impending tsunami in mortality from traditional diseases. Dr. Smith makes the case that our complete focus on COVID-19 has averted the public health attention away from more lethal conditions, such as cancer and heart disease. This lack of attention for other treatable, deadly diseases, coupled with the fear engendered by COVID-19 may well result in more deaths attributable to fear of COVID then to the disease itself. When I return I’ll be joined by Pioneer Institute’s Dr. Bill Smith.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. We’re back. This is Hubwonk. I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m now joined by a visiting fellow in life sciences at Pioneer Institute, and a good friend of the Hubwonk podcast Dr. Bill Smith. Welcome back to the show, Bill. Thank you, Joe. Glad to be here. I want to talk to you or with you about the newest research piece that you just released entitled and impending tsunami in mortality from traditional diseases and implications for public health. It really struck me hard and it gave me a lot to think about let’s start at the beginning for the benefit of our listeners with some background. I’ll just throw in that we’re now approaching the second year of of COVID since it was first discovered in, in China and 2019, hence COVID-19 the diseases reached every part of the world.
Joe Selvaggi:
We know now we have new strains that COVID the Delta Varian, which are both more contagious and more deadly. And you know, these are, this is the bad news. The good news is that we’ve got some effective, safe vaccines and therapies. In fact an earlier episode of have Wonka, we featured the fact that we hope to be approaching zero COVID deaths very, very soon. So this is where we begin. Your paper starts out with some background on how deadly COVID is and compares to some of the diseases mankind has experienced in the past. Let’s start at the very beginning how, how bad and how deadly is COVID compared to other things mankind has encountered?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it’s not as deadly as HIV. It’s not as deadly, probably as the S the Spanish flu and maybe that’s due to therapeutics and vaccines. But it’s even not as deadly as some of our current traditional diseases. So COVID is now probably the number two or three killer in the country. And there was a point in January and February where it was the number one killer, but there was also a point when it was the number seven killer. So it’s a dangerous disease. What I’m not saying in this paper is that we should ignore COVID. But what I’m saying in this paper is that it’s, it’s not the number one killer, and I think public health authorities. I want to take them to task a little bit because they’ve ignored the public health campaigns to have people go and get diagnostic tests for more traditional diseases. I focus on cardiovascular disease, but you could look at any disease, state cancer, mammograms, diabetes, A1C tests, there’s a whole bunch of diagnostic screenings that fell off the cliff during COVID.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I am going to unpack that one, one piece at a time, I guess, a Hublot might be part of that whole movement. Certainly we dedicated quite a few episodes to, to COVID and I, I would agree that COVID seems to have eclipsed all other health, public health issues definitely to the detriment of, of the public health. Where do you think we went? We, we lost our way, so we have, you know, in January, February we discovered this disease. It was rampant in, in China and Italy, and it ultimately arrived on our shores. I remember quite well when everything locked down in early March where you have to expect the public to be frightened and focused on something not well known, not a never before seen where, you know, if you were a public health person, where, where did we lose our way in the beginning?
Dr. Bill Smith:
I, I didn’t, I won’t even say and criticize public health officials in the beginning, because there was so much, there was such a lack of knowledge about how severe this disease was, how quickly it was going to spread and public have felt the health officials were groping around, understandably, trying to figure out how this, how, how deadly this disease was going to be. So I’m not going to criticize them for the, the 2020 period, but once we started getting vaccines and the rates of COVID started dropping, I really think public officials should have said very publicly, go back to the doctor, get your blood pressure, screened, get, get a mammogram, get, get your cholesterol tested. They should have made a conscious effort to say, you know what, it’s safe, relatively safe to go back to the doctor and people that are at risk for these traditional diseases gut should go in and get tested. And they did not do that. They continued talking about COVID non-stop
Joe Selvaggi:
Which in your paper you say creates a, a cultural fear again in the beginning. And certainly much of that is justified as you point out. But that fear does have a downside. You chose in your paper to feature a particular disease. We have many things that can kill us but you, you chose a CVD cardiovascular disease as the, perhaps the emblematic disease of all diseases to to make your point. What made you choose that disease?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I, I knew from the beginning, you know, you know what I do for pioneer, I follow a biotech and pharma policy, and I’m getting a little out of my lane with this paper, but I felt like I had to, because I was, I subscribed to all these healthcare blogs and websites, and I’m constantly following media around healthcare. And I started to see these staggering stories. One of them that jumped out at me was a CDC study that said during COVID mammograms had fallen off the cliff by 87%, 87%, fewer mammograms. Exactly. And I started looking at all the data for our different disease states and, and I became overwhelmed because in virtually every disease area, people were not going to the doctor and getting the traditional tests. So I thought, I can’t write a paper of this size. It’s too big.
Dr. Bill Smith:
I have to narrow it down. And the logical the logical therapeutic area to focus on is cardiovascular disease, because it’s the number one killer. And it’s been the number one killer even during COVID. There were more far more cardiovascular deaths in 2020, and in 2021 than there were COVID deaths. And and I also, the D the data was also very alarming, you know, blood pressure screenings during COVID down 50% cholesterol screenings down 35% stress tests where you might pick up atrial fibrillation or other conditions were down 80%. I mean, the numbers were very concerning, and I thought, I should, I really should write about this
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. So all these tests that have helped keep us healthy fell off a cliff, and one have to assume people remain just as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable being in lockdown with COVID. So we just essentially turned off the light and for all these diseases one of your one of the things we did early on in, in hub walk is in the interest of helping people address their health issues, we promoted and encourage people to use the technology that, that we’re using right now. And this remote technology call it telemedicine, where you can get your doctor from the comfort of your living room and perhaps not have that non-zero risk of getting COVID well, taking a trip to the, to the doctor, your paper addresses that fact that telemedicine was a compliment, but perhaps maybe not the right path for, for everything and everyone. Yeah.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Pioneer has written a lot about tele-health and we’re very enthusiastic about it. We think it should be reimbursed. We think it should be above it. It should be easier to get in touch with your doctor. And tele-health is one way to do that. What I saw in the data concern me that concerned me was that in a telehealth visit during COVID, at least you are less likely, for example, to get a blood pressure screening, less likely to get a cholesterol screening, you might get to talk to your doctor about one thing that’s going on, but you wouldn’t get all the traditional tests. Like if you go, I, I, I broke a rib a couple of months ago. I had to go into the doctor and they, they did a blood pressure test, and they looked at a bunch of things that weren’t related to my ribbon any way. And you, you weren’t getting that. I don’t think you were getting that in telehealth visits. And, and that also has a health disparity angle because minority communities tended to use health tele-health visits more than others. I that’s surprising to me, but that was, that was what the data show. So I’m, I’m an enthusiastic supporter of, of telehealth, but I think there’s a quality issue that some tele-health is this need to be upgraded so that you’re actually getting the diagnostic tests that are, that are essential.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes. And in addition to our a shows on tele telehealth, we did have a actual emergency room doctors who attested that laying of hands is, is, is vital. So we need to see a doctor in real life from time to time. But you also, in your paper measure you, you mentioned the falloff of mammograms. Let’s focus on the the tests that relate to heart disease. How, you know, let’s translate, let’s connect the dots. If I don’t go to my doctor or I don’t get a test share with me which tests or do I have gotten that I’m not getting, or that the public generally is not getting. And how does that translate to a death?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I’m not a cardiologist, but I mean, I would think that blood pressure screenings are the number one thing that should happen. You’re, you’re going to develop heart disease and your heart’s going to muscle is going to suffer. If you’re you’re, you have chronic blood pressure, high blood pressure, that’s hypertension, that’s not being addressed. So I think that’s the number one. And that’s, you know, that may be something that could be done in a telehealth visit, but right now that’s not that common. So that’s the number one thing I think that was missing cholesterol screenings. Of course, if you’re at risk for atrial fibrillation, there’s a whole slew of tests that, that usually you have to go into your doctor to, to, to have a a stress test. There, there’s all sorts of things that that again, fell off a cliff during COVID and cardiomyopathy, a general weakening of the heart, same story there, echocardiograms and all sorts of tests that can be done in the office.
Dr. Bill Smith:
If you’re at high risk for some of these things and your heart muscle baby may be weakening, but a lot of those tests have to have to be done in the office. They can’t be done in a telehealth visit. Now we are seeing, and you probably see it on TV, that there are these devices where you can very selling them on Amazon. You put your two fingers on a device, and it tells you whether your heart is beating properly, and it might be able to diagnose atrial fibrillation. I’m very encouraged by those. I think they should be in great use. But some of them require you to go to your doctor and actually be taught how to use it and be connected to your doctor, not just, you know, take, take it for fun and see it on your phone. So I think the in-person visits should have been encouraged to a greater degree to see cardiologists if you’re an at risk patient or just a normal patient to just go in and get your BP and your and your cholesterol tested
Joe Selvaggi:
Now many of our listeners are thinking, okay, look, I should get these tests. I should see my doctor. But of course, you know, I should brush between meals and these all kinds of great ideas that a lot of people might issue for for convenience exit can’t get around to it. How would we be persuasive in measuring there’s a term we use as in many of the past episodes talking about COVID we talked about COVID deaths, but we talk about excess deaths due to COVID. And, and much of what you’re talking about, I believe is people who will die because they’ve not taken the proper care to go to their doctor. And that will not have been from COVID. Have you, or is your, your paper does attempt to quantify measure how many deaths that might be attributable to non COVID deaths, but that are COVID related owing to people not taking proper precautions with their care.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, agile. I think the answer is we don’t have good data on this and we should. So there was anecdotal data. For example, when my paper came out, the Boston Herald wrote a story about it, saying people weren’t getting the traditional screenings and the chief operating officer for mass general. One of the most important hospitals in the country went on record in that story and said, yes, we’re seeing anecdotal evidence that, that our emergency rooms are getting flooded with patients with non COVID conditions. So heart, heart problems and other problems. And so I think, I think there should be studies that should be done where, you know, researchers go into the emergency room and they say, okay, you’re, you’re, you’re having some heart pains, chest pains. When was the last time you got screened? And we start to try to figure out the hard data on how many people that are showing up now in large numbers are showing up in, in, in large part because they didn’t get screened for 18 or 20 months. That, that I think that would be very valuable data to have. And I think researchers should be out there looking at that.
Joe Selvaggi:
Certainly that seems like a useful tactic because well, heart, I think her problems present dramatically and quickly. I’m also thinking about all those diseases that take longer to kill us like a cancer that we won’t see. And if, again, if we were measuring for excess deaths from cancer from COVID, or those wouldn’t be measurable now, because you would not know that that lump would not be found for, for years perhaps where a visit to the doctor might’ve found it immediately.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Exactly. If you were six years from your last colonoscopy and COVID hit, you might be eight or nine years away from your colonoscopy, that that’s just not a good thing to happen.
Joe Selvaggi:
Right. And so you so have you been able to, in any way in, for, from, let’s say the data that we have you, you had some numbers in your paper talking about comparing the deaths from heart disease in 2020 versus 2021. Fortunately the rates of death from COVID is, are falling. We’ve got effective vaccines and therapies they’re falling fairly dramatically. Whereas heart disease is going in the other direction. At what point given that there’s so many more people dying from heart disease than are dying from COVID, at what point should it appear on the radar of the public health? In other words, when should the headline and the Kyron on CNN start talking about heart disease deaths instead of COVID?
Dr. Bill Smith:
I think it should have happened six months ago. I mean, that’s what I wrote in my paper that there should have been a public health campaign to encourage people to go back to their doctor and get some of these tests. And I would even, I would even recommend, again, we don’t know how ominous that the tsunami that I I warn about is going to be, but I would even recommend that we set up set up tent cities in like neighborhoods like we did for the COVID vaccine or COVID tests where people can go and get a blood pressure screening and a cholesterol screening easily, particularly in minority neighborhoods. Just we’re going to do this for free. We’re coming into your neighborhood. We’re setting up in the parking lot, come by and we’ll, we’ll screen your blood pressure. Those are the kinds of things that public health officials should be doing in, in large numbers.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, we’re going to get to the, the, if you were king for a day recommendations, cause you had a few of those in your paper, and then towards the end, I just want to put a fine point on it at this point. I think you’re comfortable in asserting that, whereas COVID is a pretty bad a disease that killed a lot of people more than 750,000 Americans. So we don’t want to make light of that, but at this point in the process, the fear of COVID and that fear that, that keeps us from our doctor is far more lethal. And in fact, a far greater public health threat than COVID itself and therefore should be treated as it’s COVID related because the fear is COVID related, but it should be treated as dramatically and comprehensively as we treated the actual disease of COVID
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s my view. I mean, COVID was the leading killer for maybe two months during this whole period. And cardiovascular disease was the one killer for most of the months during this period. And I just think public health officials should have had more context and said to people, look you’re most the overwhelming percentage of older Americans are vaccinated. You can go to the doctor and you can get tested. Now, go back. Now that that should have been happening when vaccination rates started to peak.
Joe Selvaggi:
So again, now we’ll get to the king for a day. There are many policy makers who listened to the show public health leaders maybe they knew it in the back of their mind. They said, okay, wait, you’re right. We’ve been you know, COVID turn up to 11 every day we’re we’re missing the forest for the trees here. If you were king for a day, what would you change? What would be some of the first things you would say?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I made three, three recommendations in the paper. The first one I’ve already talked about a major public health campaign to encourage people to go back to their doctor and get these diagnostic tests that may be a TV campaign. It may be just public health officials talking about it when they get on TV and to talk about COVID. They also mentioned these other conditions and remind people to go back. So that that’s the first thing, a public public affairs campaign to remind people this, the second recommendation I make is make it easier for people to get medications. So you, you do finally go back to your doctor and they give you a prescription and suddenly you have a $200 co-insurance payment and you don’t fill your prescription. I just think for a year or two, we ought to have a reduction in copays and out-of-pocket costs so that people actually filled their medications and take them right away.
Dr. Bill Smith:
There was for example a number that I saw in one of these studies, a tour of a stat in which is the lipid lowering drug Lipitor, when it was branded it’s the most commonly prescribed drug in the country, a tour of a stat and prescriptions were down 9% during COVID. And if you think about the number of a tour bus Caton prescriptions in a year, it’s over a hundred million, which means that there are 10 million, fewer prescriptions for this lipid lowering drug, important drug being prescribed. And I just think we’ve got to get people back in and taking some of these cheap, generic medications for, for blood pressure or, or, or lipid lowering. And on the more expensive medications we ought to have lower out-of-pocket cost so people can actually afford them. So that was sort of my second recommendation to encourage people to get back on their meds if they haven’t gone to the doctor, or if they’re going to the doctor for the first time in a year, and they get diagnosed with something, they get encouraged to fill their prescriptions because we know when they show up at the pharmacy and they have a high out-of-pocket costs, a lot of people just walk away, they don’t fill their script.
Joe Selvaggi:
So are you comparing, I, or actually in your paper, you did indeed compare. You said, look, we we know these vaccines work. We know you need them but we’re gonna make the pot a little sweeter and make it free. So as to ensure the greatest uptake possible, you’re comparing other lethal or let’s say life-saving treatments to a vaccine, and you’re saying, let’s apply the same logic. They are to encourage the, you know, to avoid this tsunami of mortality. Let’s, let’s make those
Dr. Bill Smith:
Exactly, at least in a year or two. I mean, how many fewer vaccinations would we have had if they had to queue up first and pay a $20 copay before you went and got your vaccine? I think a lot of people would have just said, forget it. I’m not doing it. So I do think out of pocket costs are an important factor. There are many studies about it, and we should lower them for a couple of years to get people back on chronic medication. So that was my second recommendation. My third recommendation was for the federal government. There is a, I forget what the formal term is. There’s a health preventative task force it’s called
Joe Selvaggi:
Right? The U S the United States preventative services, task force. So it’s got a long acronym USPSTF’s so say more.
Dr. Bill Smith:
And they’re the, the group and the federal government that makes decisions about what diagnostic tests should be, you know, a matter of course, in your annual physical how, how, who should be tested at what age. And there are very esteemed group. Let me just say that there’s a lot of physicians for medical centers around. It’s not just government bureaucrats, it’s, it’s a lot of very, very serious medical professionals on that. And so when I, I got into this paper, I thought I’ll go onto their website. They must be apoplectic that they’ve made so many important recommendations about diagnostic tests that need to be taken for, for Americans. They should be apoplectic that they’re not happening. And you know what, they weren’t, it was, it looked to me on their website and I don’t want to criticize them personally, but it looked to me like it was business as usual, you know, oh, we’re working on this test.
Dr. Bill Smith:
It might tell whether a person in their fifties has diabetes and, you know, they weren’t, there wasn’t an, a red alarm going off, like on top of a fire truck that said, wait a minute, we’re the people that are, are trying to get people to do these tests. And we’re not mobilizing, we’re not, we’re not putting out press releases. We’re not doing studies. We’re not, we’re not educating the population about how important these tests are. And that concerned me and I, I just, so one of my final recommendations is these guys need to get engaged in this public health campaign, and also start putting out some information and data about the important diagnostic tests that are not being performed. The important screenings that are not being performed.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes, it seems to me that it would be, I don’t know if there is such a term called applied health, but all the best science in the world does no good. If it’s sitting on a shelf in a drug store or in the hospital, just like vaccines have to go into arms to, to work these, these treatments that are being developed and need to be prescribed and taken to, to help anyone it’s your future. And, you know, you’ve, you’ve stumbled across something that I think we should have already, as you say, had a red, big red light on at a national level a massive mobilization. Do you aspire to look at other, let’s say health challenges I’m, I’m looking perhaps to a future episode on the effect of COVID on public health. We all know people who have literally been broken by this disease either because they’ve been in isolation in fear. Absolutely terrified. And and you know, these I’m sure there’s a measurable uptick in suicides, or just in general depression. Do you aspire to do, to help us quantify what’s going on in other areas and other diseases in the future?
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s a very interesting topic to me, and I hope people that read my paper are, are decide. We’ve got to do more research in this area, because I think there are conditions. You mentioned mental health, but you know, the headlines yesterday was that we had a hundred thousand opioid deaths during the last year. I mean, that’s astonishing number that’s staggering. That’s much higher than, than, than traffic deaths. And, and nobody’s talking about it. And, and one would think some of it is related to the isolation that happens when, during COVID. And there are, you know, there, there are other therapeutic areas like diabetes and stroke and cancer, where we should be looking at what the implications were, so that if we have another pandemic like this, the lockdowns, don’t say, don’t go to the emergency room, don’t go to the doctor. You know, they admitted during the lockdowns that you have to go to the grocery store and they should have also said, you have to go to the doctor. And, and that really didn’t come through very clearly.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. Now we’re getting close to the end of our time together. You’ve been in you know, a scientist and a, I’m a member of the I guess the big pharma and health community for some time. Why do you think public health has this blind spot? Meaning if you and I, here in Boston, on our podcasts, can identify far more lethal challenges to the American public. Why is it that our public health officials are blind to this and remain focused on a disease that thankfully because of vaccines and therapies is be, you know, we’re, we’re going to rapidly approach zero COVID death.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I don’t want to be too cynical and read into people’s motives, but it seemed to me that the COVID was a golden moment for the public health community. Right? You could get on, if you were a local public health official, you could get on TV every night and talk about COVID. If you were a federal health, the public health officials, you could be on every cable news show every night. And I don’t know why you would during a pandemic. You’d think you’d be at your desk working for solutions, but a lot of these guys, and I’m not going to name names, cause I don’t want to make it personal, but a lot of these guys just never stopped going on TV. And they realized if I talk about COVID, I can get on TV and I can get in the media and I can be quoted in the New York times. And everybody’s going to ask my opinion and you know, that’s natural, it’s human nature. You would, you would bask in that kind of attention. And it’s also probably true that if you started talking about getting a blood pressure screening, the reporters would fall asleep. They wouldn’t be quite as interested in that topic, but nonetheless, I still think they should have plowed through and tried to get that message out,
Joe Selvaggi:
Right? Not, not fan servicing, they should be committed to actual public health and, and shy away from the spotlight and focused on what, what, what really matters. But we’re doing our part. You’re doing your part, your research piece, I think should grab the attention and perhaps the ship will change course. And we will see public health officials with a red light saying, go see your doctor so that if I’m going to wrap up the show and, and come up with one massive recommendation is all of our listeners ought to put down the podcast and make sure they get the see their primary care physician and, and take the medicine that they’re prescribed as quickly as they can.
Dr. Bill Smith:
I agree, a hundred percent or your specialists, your cardiologists around colleges, whatever your particular health situation is just don’t, don’t be scared by COVID go back and get, get a diagnosis, get a screening, get a test.
Joe Selvaggi:
Oh, that’s great. Well, well, we’ll leave the show there. I appreciate your coming on and, and, and writing such a thoughtful paper. And I think we’re, we’re, we’re part of the change. And and, and you’re a big part of, thank you very much for joining the show again, bill. My pleasure, Joe, Welcome to the hub. The 360 explainer. I’m here with bill Smith of pioneer Institute. Bill. How does the biopharmaceutical business model work? Lots of people have opinions about the pharmaceutical industry. There’s a broad. Hmm. Okay. okay, let me try it again. Okay. This is a long 360 I’m Joey [inaudible]. I’m joined now by pioneer institutes, bill Smith bill, we’re going to talk about the, how the biopharmaceutical business model works. How is it different from other industries?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, Joel, it’s, it’s very different from other industries and I would, there are many ways I could talk about, but let me, let me narrow it down to three. The first way I think it’s different is that it’s the industry with the largest R and D costs. So there are huge costs upfront when developing the medicine. And then generally there are low manufacturing costs. Once you discover the medicine, because it just, you have to put the chemical together in a factory and it may cost three or 4 cents a pill, but it’s going to sell for three or $4 a pill because you’ve done all this R and D and that’s kind of unique. That’s not like the housing industry where the labor costs, the lumber costs, that’s concrete costs are part and parcel of the manufacturing costs. And they’re high. Same with autos. You can’t sell an auto for, for $10,000, if it costs $25,000 to assemble in labor and parts.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So the industry is unique in that way. They have low manufacturing costs and high R and D costs. The second way, I’d say it’s, it’s unique and the chairs this with a few other industries, but not all industries is that it’s indispensable to life. When you make a product that people feel are indispensable. There’s always going to be political fighting over price, just as they’re fighting over this price, fighting over gasoline prices, currently, any essential good for human beings, there’s going to be in a fight over price. Nobody cares about the price of a moderate Maserati, because it’s not essential to your life, but the products that are essential to your life there tends to be political wrangling about prices. And that’s just a natural part of the industry. It’s always going to be part of the industry. And the third thing, I think that makes it unique is the patent system where a branded company does the R and D it’s very expensive.
Dr. Bill Smith:
There’s a 20 year patent, but they only get maybe seven years of patent life where they’re selling the product. A lot of times the product is under patent for 10 or 12 years during the R and D process. So there’s no sales. So for those seven years, they can charge a kind of monopoly price for that product, which is very, very high. But then the product that the patent expires and the product price drops enormously, this is very unique. There aren’t any industries like this. So if you buy a new car for $35,000, you can’t get a used car for a hundred dollars, but actually in the drug industry, you can, when the patent expires on a branded drug, the price will drop to almost nothing to Penny’s. And, and that’s, that’s a unique feature of the industry.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I think what you’re talking about is the generic drug industry. How does the generic drug industry fit into the overall life sciences industry?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it’s, it’s extremely important industry because the, the branded drug industry makes the discoveries. They do the R and D they find the new products, but then once the patent expires the generic industry, drug industry, all they have to do is manufacture it at a, at a low cost. And then it can be sold that at extremely low cost. So just one anecdotal example, when I was at Pfizer, liberatory was our, our flagship product. People told me it was about $4 per pill, and there were tens of millions of people on it. So it was a multi-billion dollar drug. I bumped into a healthcare executive from Michigan the other day, and I asked them what the price of Lipitor was now that it was generic. It’s called a tour of a statin is a generic. He said, we pay about 4 cents a pill.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So it went from $4 to 4 cents. I can’t think of another industry would that kind of thing happens where the product is priced at a certain price, and then at a patent expires, or some other benchmark happens where the price collapses. And, and that’s a unique feature of the industry. And a lot of people don’t understand that, that you shouldn’t look just at the branded price of the product. You should look at the price, the average price of the product over 20 or 25 years, because the generic price needs to be factored in. And I think we have a very good system in the United States where the drug goes generic, the price, the, the it’s a great innovation, and suddenly it’s available to people for pennies.
Joe Selvaggi:
So we, we create one incentive to develop a new drug right. And then that’s the pack. That’s the patent they enjoy. And another path to manufacture the drug in great quantity of low, low costs. So Tucson, one drug.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So the, you know, policymakers that criticized drug prices of branded companies, we could overnight by simply eliminating patents, make drugs, all drugs, extremely cheap, just get rid of all the branded patents. You would not have a new drug discovered. However, if you did that, which we do have the current crop of drugs available for very cheap,
Joe Selvaggi:
We freeze an Amber the current formulary and has no new innovation. Finally, why are there so many drug advertisements on television? Why does the TV tell me what, what drug I should tell my doctor to prescribe to me?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, the, the advertisement was actually annoying to me when I watch football or something else, but there’s, there are so many, it’s counterintuitive to hear this. Some people, but companies go on TV when they’re competing with other drugs, they don’t go. If they, if you discover a first in class new drug, that’s generally not advertised on TV because it’s, there’s going to be demand out there already from the physicians who prescribe it and the patients. But if you invent the third or fourth diabetes drug in a certain therapeutic area in diabetes, you’re going to go on TV and advertise that and highlight the features of why your drug is better and try to get your, your patient, the patient. Who’s watching that ads talk to their doctor about it. It’s part of the competition of the market that people say it doesn’t exist in the drug industry.
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s actually not true. They advertisements are a sign that it is a very competitive market, and those advertisements are very expensive and they would only spend the money if they thought we’re going to distinguish our brand from the other brands already in the market. And let me also just tell the listeners that you know, how they have these terrible side effects that are mentioned in these ads. So they say you could get oily discharge, you could get headaches, you could get this, you could die. That that is not something that pharma companies want to do that as an FDA requirement. The requirement says that if you mentioned what this drug is indicated for. So if it’s indicated for diabetes, you also have to mention any of the side effects that showed up in the clinical trials. Even if those side effects were quite small minuscule and only touched a small percent of the percentage of the clinical trial population. So that’s why you have those ads where they rushed through the, the the side effects, because it’s, it’s an FDA requirement.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wrap it up there. Bill, thank you for joining hub. Hogwan 360 explainer.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Thank you, Joe.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. This is hub Wong 360. I’m now joined by pioneer institutes, bill Smith, bill. We’re going to talk about quality adjusted life years. What are qualities?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Joel qualities are a cost-effectiveness methodology that developed in many of the European countries that have national health services. And if you know anything about national health services in some of these countries like great Britain, they have trouble paying for many of the products because they’re free many of the therapies because they’re free and there’s high demand. So they tried to invent a cost-effectiveness system to rate and value different therapies and qualities are the most commonly used.
Joe Selvaggi:
Why are they pop problematic for patients?
Dr. Bill Smith:
So qualities qualities measure the value of a drug based on its ability to prolong your life and to improve the quality of your life. So you may sound, they may say, oh, that sounds commonsensical, but actually it’s not. So if if you’re 30 years old, you have more life years and you can live longer potentially. So a therapy for a 30 year old may be valued more highly than a therapy for a 70 year old. Same is true on the quality of life side. If you’re living with a disability and someone else’s not living with a disability, the medicine for the person not living with a disability may be rated more highly because it doesn’t have the person doesn’t have quality of life issues. So it gets problematic for a bunch of different populations. And I can go into details. I found the same infirmities in the quality in cancer, as well as rare diseases.
Joe Selvaggi:
Now, what countries use Qualys?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it was famously invented in great Britain. But most, most countries use it. The Canadians new Zealanders Australians the one major exception to the use of qualities I think is Germany. And not surprisingly Germany is second to the United States in the available availability of new therapies to patients. They don’t block access to new drugs as much as the countries that do use the quality.
Joe Selvaggi:
Now, are there alternatives to qualities in establishing the value of drugs?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, there, there were a lot of people that try to come up with cost-effectiveness models. I am a, I’m a kind of market guy, and I think we should,
Joe Selvaggi:
We are all are here at pioneer.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah. The common wisdom is smarter than the economist with a slide rule. And so I think the market tends to sort out patients, patients, families, physicians payers pharma companies, all of those actors have different opinions about the value of a medicine. And it ends up getting decided based on the market. You know, if there’s high demand by patients and physicians, health plans are more likely to cover it. If there’s an, a low demand health plans are not likely to cover it. This recent drug approved by Biogen is an example of that. They were hoping it would sell well in the commercial world. And a lot of a lot of physicians didn’t prescribe it and they had very low numbers and there wasn’t high demand. So a lot of health plans are not covering in the commercial world
Joe Selvaggi:
And with the widespread use of qualities in the U S impact research and development. And if so, what drug classes would be most impacted?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, if the the quality methodology that’s adopted is adopted by the Institute for clinical and economic review, which is the U S kind of home base of qualities, if that methodology were adopted, I’d be most concerned about the R and D on rare disease drugs, because rare disease drugs have a very unique business model. You might have three or four or 5,000 patients. It’s a super rare disease. And a company might spend $500 million or a billion dollars developing the drug, and then you only have three or 5,000 customers. So the price of that drug is going to be very high. The methodology used by the quality, in the case of rare disease drugs, don’t have threshold monetary thresholds high enough to to capture those rare disease, drugs, and the business model of rare disease, drugs. And you know, given that, that cell therapies and gene therapies are the hottest and most promising and most exciting discoveries out there happening, those are rare disease, drugs, and they’re going to be more expensive. And if the quality quashed them, they would quash a lot of important cures.
Joe Selvaggi:
So to wrap up what would you say are the winners and losers when qualities used based on your observation, both here in the U S where we do not use them and around the world where they do, who are the winners?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, the number one loser is, is patients that there’s no doubt about that because nations that use qualities have poor access to the latest medications that get approved to there. There’s just no doubt about that. That’s demonstrated the winners in the use of qualities are probably the politicians who are trying to cut the healthcare budget, and they need to fig leaf that has the sound of being scientific. And the use of quality has this crazy scientific or around it. We’re, we’re crunching numbers. We’re economists, we’re, we’re putting data into the computer, and we’re going to come up with a number that values that drug, and that allows politicians to make cuts in healthcare services and access to therapeutics under the cover of scientific objectivity.
Joe Selvaggi:
But we’ll leave it there. Thank you very much for being on Hubwonk 360, Bill. Thank you, Joe.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. If you enjoyed today’s episode, there are several ways to support the show and pioneer Institute. It be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to a bunk on your iTunes pod catcher, if you’d like to make it easier for others to find how long it would be great, if you would offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share hub along with friends, if you have ideas or suggestions or comments for me about future episode topics, you’re welcome to email me at hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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Today, there’s an even greater opportunity to build on your impact. Today is Giving Tuesday, the biggest day to give back of 2021. I hope you’ll join us in celebrating this global day of generosity and supporting the causes you care most about.
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This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Nicholas Basbanes, author of the 2020 literary biography, Cross of Snow: A Life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. He shares why poetry – from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Homer to Dante, Shakespeare, Longfellow, Emily Dickinson, and Langston Hughes – may well be the most influential, enduring form of written human expression. He then provides brief highlights of Longfellow’s life, and why he was often regarded as the most popular and recognizable “fireside poet” New England has ever produced. They discuss the tragic death of his second wife Frances Appleton in 1861, and his lasting importance as among our nation’s most celebrated poets, literary figures, and translators of Dante. They review Longfellow’s well-known poems, including “The Wreck of the Hesperus” and “Paul Revere’s Ride,” recited by countless generations of schoolchildren, and their wider cultural impact on interest in poetry in American schools. They also discuss Longfellow’s 1842 anti-slavery work, Poems on Slavery, and his close friendship with abolitionists such as U.S. Senator Charles Sumner; as well as other notable works such as “Evangeline,” and “The Jewish Cemetery at Newport,” that celebrate religious liberty and inclusiveness. Basbanes concludes with a reading from his Longfellow biography.
Stories of the Week: Many state education officials are seeking guidance from the U.S. Department of Education on how to meet the accountability requirements under the Every Student Succeeds Act after COVID-related testing disruptions. In Utah, student achievement on state assessments has declined across all grades, subject areas, and student groups in 2021 compared to 2019 (tests were not administered during 2020).
Guest:
Nicholas Basbanes is the author of ten critically acclaimed works of cultural history, with a particular emphasis on various aspects of books and book culture. A Gentle Madness: Bibliophiles, Bibliomanes, and the Eternal Passion for Books, his first book, was a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award for nonfiction in 1995, and was a New York Times Notable Book. On Paper: The Everything of Its Two Thousand Year History (2013) was one of three finalists for the Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Nonfiction, and was named a best book of the year by seven major publications. In 2016, he was awarded a Public Scholar research fellowship by the National Endowment for the Humanities, his second NEH grant, for work on Cross of Snow: A Life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (2020). As Christoph Irmscher wrote in his The Wall Street Journal review, it’s “Inspired … superbly sympathetic… Longfellow is the perfect poet for our current moment… Basbanes writes about him with generosity, gentleness, and grace.”
The next episode will air on Wednesday, December 1st with guest, Matthew Chingos, who directs the Center on Education Data and Policy at the Urban Institute.
Tweet of the Week:
NEW REPORT ALERT: @usedgov study of public school funding & spending for FY2018 & 19. Average per-pupil funding continued its steady increase to $14,347. Funding is significantly lower for #CharterSchools than district-run schools. https://t.co/KeZxo0Lp7p
— Patrick Wolf (@P_Diddy_Wolf) November 18, 2021
News Links:
How did the COVID-19 pandemic affect student performance? Utah data is ‘sobering and concerning’
States Look to Ed Department for Guidance on Restarting Testing and Accountability After Two Years of Pandemic-Related Interruptions
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Cara: Dear listeners. Welcome to another episode of the learning curve with me, Cara Candal, and the fabulous Gerard Robinson, who I have to say, I recently got to see live in person, which is just absolutely amazing to see so many people live and in person, but especially you, my good friend, Gerard, how are you doing today?
[00:00:19] Gerard Robinson: Doing well. It was good to finally see you not on a screen and I barely see you. But it was good to break bread and talk shop. Yes. No, but I’m just
[00:00:29] Cara: like now, you know what I look like, because the last time we saw each other in person before this was years and years ago, so you know how the pandemic has aged me, but George don’t laugh.
[00:00:46] Listen, we’re coming up on Thanksgiving. Obviously. This is we’re recording this. We’re about to. Sit down. Our listeners may be, can listen to a little learning curve with their Turkey this week. I just picked up my Turkey and I was thinking of you on the way home, [00:01:00] because, knowing that , you’ve changed your diet very recently.
[00:01:03] I’m wondering like , what’s on the Robinson table this year. Is it a tofurkey or is it like something that would utterly offend my father’s sensibilities? I would have to say with that, I would probably eat what’s your specialty.
[00:01:14] GR: So for me, I’m going to have plant-based sausage. And so it would totally offend your father’s taste buds, my wife and the girls.
[00:01:24] So last year I made gumbo and this year I was going to make Kubia, which is a appealed fish dish, , and they all said, Nope, we want something that you’ve only made for us once in our life. And guess what? That is. Drum roll fry.
[00:01:41] Cara: Oh, I was going to say vegetarian sausage.
[00:01:45] GR: actually eat a Turkey and chicken stuff, but they’ve only had fried chicken at least made this house once. And so I’m going to make it for them along with some other goodies. So while that may be a normal meal in many households across America, [00:02:00] It is one that we don’t often have. they love chicken, but it’s often baked.
[00:02:03] So,
[00:02:05] Cara: you know, try to have to say, I rarely eat bread chicken, although it is delicious, absolutely scared to death of trying to prepare it. I’ve never eaten. I disclosed this to a friend the other day who we were, uh, looking at a menu, never had chicken. Just something that kind of, I know, it’s that weird.
[00:02:22] Like I made it all through college in the Midwest without a single chicken wing who knows how that happened, but it did. , so it’s interesting. Well, I’m glad to see that you can sort of like mix up the Thanksgiving table. I’m pretty excited. I’m going to be hosting a group of family, friends this year, nothing big at the Candal household.
[00:02:43] We , attempting to make a Turkey for said friends, my father, on the other hand, you know, speaking of offending his sensibilities, I should share with our listeners that this is a man who is so averse to a plant-based diet. for years and years, I’ve been asking him to please get on board, even just like, you know, you can still eat meat and be generally [00:03:00] plant-based the man.
[00:03:00] It’s just not, in his DNA. , but he is known for making a turducken Gerard. Have you ever had your duck and I’m assuming now? No. Yeah, the Turkey stuffed with like a duck stuff. Cause like, Wow. It’s an actual thing. It’s disgusting. Love you, dad. It’s disgusting. Like just, I don’t know, to all of our listeners out there, if you’ve ever had a good thing, a good term docket and let me know, but it is actually a thing.
[00:03:25] will not be, with my parents is Thanksgiving. We will be zooming, but I’m eager to know what’s going to be on the table there. So I know that so many of us this week are finding a little bit of time to. Relax, enjoy family in the middle of what is certain to be a very hectic season. So wishing everybody just a wonderful, relaxing holiday and hopefully this one better than last year when so many of us so saw.
[00:03:52] So few of us. but you know, we are here Gerard to. what’s going on in education this week now you, and I [00:04:00] think we can say that we were at the national summit on education hosted by selling the ed last week. It was, , I have to say, I give props to, as, our listeners know, Excel, net is my, is, uh, something that I do during the day, a job that I love very much.
[00:04:14] And I think it was just a really wonderful. Display of, thought leadership on so many levels. some really great speakers. and one of the things, one of the panels that we, one of the things we confronted them, one of our strategy sessions at the national summit , on education, was accountable.
[00:04:30] Was accountability and testing and what the heck is going on. And that relates to my story of the week, Gerard, which is from the 74 by Linda Jacobson. And the title is states. Look to ed department for guidance on restarting testing and accountability after two years. Of pandemic related interruptions.
[00:04:50] So we’ve talked about testing on this show. We’ve talked about accountability. We haven’t talked a whole heck of a lot about what’s going to happen now that most schools are reopen , and [00:05:00] most kids are back to some new version of normal and what this article is discussing. Is the fact that while most schools are testing and many did last year, too many schools and districts tested last year, we know that by and large, there’s just two years of lost test score data.
[00:05:16] And, in the department of education, the federal department of education, In the first year, obviously in 2020, some waivers from testing and accountability from ESSA, we’re the, every student succeeds act, which is the accountability system under which, states are accountable under, federal law.
[00:05:33] So meaning that’s how they get their title $1. But, , We know that states were granted waivers. Now this education department, secretary Cordona has, sent a pretty strong signal that tests are going to happen, and we’re not going to be granting a lot more waivers. So that leaves a question in everybody’s mind, we can get the test and we can get results of the test, but we don’t know how to hold schools and districts accountable for growth.
[00:05:58] If we don’t have, if we’re missing two years of [00:06:00] data, because we need to see what’s happening year over year. And as we also know to further complicate issues, Lots of kids are missing. So just a whole host of issues that states are facing right now. And not a lot of answers. States are really waiting to find out what is going to happen next.
[00:06:19] So, , we interesting to watch, , testing season is going to be honest before we know it. And certainly we need to get back to. And norm where, , accountability systems, that the thing that they do best is they shine a light on pockets of underperformance. So I’m really curious, right. As a former commissioner, as a former secretary of education, what kind of accountability system, , what kind of guidance would you like to see from the feds going forward on this
[00:06:45] GR: issue?
[00:06:46] I appreciate the fact that the fed for a couple of years, Said we’re going to hold harmless. I think that was the right decision. , I do understand why the secretary says, listen, we’ve got to do something and we have to do it kind of smartly [00:07:00] the benefit that he has today, that let’s say a decade ago. , we did not.
[00:07:05] Is, you have a number of think tanks, a number of nonprofit organizations and universities and research one schools, and also at HBC use who have professors who wake up and go to sleep every night, thinking about assessment. And if you troll the internet, you’ll see some of those professors aren’t waiting for peer review journals to give them the okay to publish their work.
[00:07:28] They’re actually putting out their ideas on how to address. For what tests could have been if all students were a test at the same time and they’ve come up with different economic, , social and academic based models for assessment. So I’m really, I really can’t weigh into this one because testing someone right now, And the pandemic is just radically different.
[00:07:51] But I would say, look to scholars at schools who are starting to put this out. So that’s part one, part two at the state [00:08:00] level, they have a lot automatic. one of the things you and I and chance to do while we were there were talked to people who are at the school level at the state level. And they were saying across the board, we have so much money.
[00:08:11] We don’t know what to do. And I can tell you in American education, that’s not usually sentence that you hear. It’s usually we don’t have enough. And then ever something else will follow. So with all of this money, there are people, again, you can invest in under the guise of COVID relief to make sure we stay in line with the parameters of the funding.
[00:08:32] There are people out there who’ve really, really thought about this. And I would say you have a number of retired teachers and principals, , who be equally interested. So I’d say use local.
[00:08:42] Cara: I love it. Also a great opportunity with this relief money to rethink assessment. I mean, it’s like one of the primary things that.
[00:08:50] school districts and school teachers and parents across the country love to hate as important as accountability systems are. But this is I think, a really grand opportunity to figure out [00:09:00] how do we get more innovative in our assessments? A close friend of mine likes to say fewer better assessments, right?
[00:09:06] So that we can still have those sort of summited data that as I say, help us understand what’s going on under the hood in school districts to make school, make sure that all children are being served without sort of. Having to continue to adhere to this testing regimen that causes anxiety. And quite frankly, sometimes perverse incentives for teachers to do things like teach to the test, which of course isn’t what we wanted in the first place.
[00:09:30] So I would be really excited to see if some of those local stakeholders that you mentioned can offer up ideas for not only how we hold schools accountable, but how we do so using. Different more innovative assessments designed for the future. So I know you’ve got a story this week. I think about a state Utah that is actually doing some really cool stuff in terms of, online learning, innovative assessments, all of the other things.
[00:09:56] What are you thinking about in that crazy?
[00:09:58] GR: Well, speaking of Utah, I had a [00:10:00] chance, , in addition to speaking to, , ESA leaders, , at the session you held, I also had an opportunity to moderate a panel focused on assessments, opportunity and personalized learning. And one of the three speakers was Dr.
[00:10:12] Carrie camp. who’s the director of K-12. Virtual learning for the Utah department of education. As many of you know, Julie Young has been a guest on our show. She was also my panel, but those two have partnered, uh, so that they can actually work to use technology as a way of trying to close the learning gap.
[00:10:32] And I should also say, we had, Denise forte, who is the interim CEO at education trust on the panel. So my story is all about. Data, but when you read what Margie Cortez had to say, she put in quotes, sobering and concerning. And that’s actually a phrase that was mentioned by representative Lowry, snow.
[00:10:52] Who’s a Republican from Santa Clara and co-chair of the Utah legislatures education interim committee. So [00:11:00] Utah is a high-performing state. They had a lot of great things, but they also have a number of socioeconomic challenges. Well, will you talk about the pandemic? It really impacted people across the board.
[00:11:11] Now, Utah was a state where a number of students were in person. And so the state said, let’s just assess exactly where we are and then figure out who took tests, who did not, and what happened? Well, when the representative said sobering and concerning, she was really clear. So for example, amongst high school juniors, 70% fewer.
[00:11:34] Took the sat college exam in 2021 compared to 2019. And if you look at the state average composite score declined, by 0.29, points, which is comparable to about one month of lost instruction. So then we talk about the Utah aspire plus tests, and this is administered to students in grades nine and 10.
[00:11:55] It had the sharpest decline in participation with 10% fewer. Students taking the [00:12:00] test in 2021 compared to 2029, but that’s not really the horrible, outcomes. Listen to this girl, mathematics performance dropped 46%, 10 and 37% in grade nine. English language arts performance worsened by 14% in both grades.
[00:12:19] And so in the state, they have something called rise assessments, and that’s short for readiness improvement, success, empowerment, and they’re administered to students in grades three to eight. They also unfortunately saw a sharp decline with 57. decline in sixth grade math and a 45% drop in fifth grade math.
[00:12:40] So the state is trying to figure out well, now that. This is the case. What do we do well to take things a step further, the Utah board of education and the national center for the improvement of educational assessment. They said, well, guess what folks it’s likely that the figures you’re discussing underestimates the true pandemic [00:13:00] effect, because it’s only based upon students who took the test in 20, 20, 20, 21.
[00:13:05] So when we’re speaking about how to look at learning loss, we have to find a new way of trying to assess it. So there is a professor at Harvard university named Andrew Holt, and he said, listen, let’s try to apply my method to the rise tests and to Utah. So according to hole, he suggested two metrics once you to include quote, a fair trend adjustment.
[00:13:32] And this is the account for changes in the testing population. And the second is an equity check and the goal here is an attempt to estimate. To the best way possible, a best case academic performance scenario for students who did not take the 2021 tests because he believes by doing so, you’re going to provide a gauge for the impact of missing students on the overall academic outcomes.
[00:13:57] And so, as the report goes, wherever the [00:14:00] story goes further, it just says that the state’s got to really think differently about how to do things. So there are three takeaways for me. Number one, holds assessment is one example that I remember. In response to you without mentioning his name of looking at university-based scholars who are trying to provide, One way of working with this number two, they also identify that even those students in Utah for the most part were in school more often than not a number of the students who filled out the survey identify that, , they sometimes were quarantine and had their education interrupted.
[00:14:35] And we dig further into the story. It said that the highest achievement occurred amongst students . Who were in-person but also had fewer interruptions, therefore being in place in school made a difference. The third is while no one is saying this in the article in Cortez definitely is not. I’m really wondering, are we trying to somehow say maybe we shouldn’t assess these students one more year [00:15:00] because things are still tight.
[00:15:02] I agree, but I want to make sure that at some point we don’t use the pandemic as a reason to maybe to go to your three, without holding some level of accountability and some level of, Assessment in place. So, you know, we’ll see, , last part is, you know, they did in by saying quote, the learning acceleration necessary cannot be left to teachers and principals alone, school leaders, educators, local communities will need support and resources to sustain a necessary intervention will be on the time of.
[00:15:32] And we’re actually funds run out a lot of money there. The smartest thing to do is just re-imagine what you would do, because I’m not sure we’re going to have so much money at one time point into schools. And so if we’re going to think about assessments and we’re looking at Utah, let’s just make sure that as we’re moving forward with this money, we’re not putting the pause too long.
[00:15:54] Accountability.
[00:15:56] Cara: couldn’t agree more Gerard and actually I think that there is an [00:16:00] enormous risk. I think that there are some vested interests that would like to see a commonality go away all together. Let’s just swing that pendulum right back to like the late 1970s early 1980s would failed and failed attempt at accountability until.
[00:16:13] Wasn’t really until 2001 on the heels of some states like Texas and Massachusetts and others implementing these systems. Right. It wasn’t until no child left behind that, we really had information about schools. And I think that’s the huge danger here. We might also have to rethink the different ways of holding schools accountable, because absolutely we want to know about student performance, but, , in this particular.
[00:16:37] If schools aren’t even trying, if they aren’t even trying to understand or to share their data or to demonstrate that they’re doing something for kids. And I think we all need to be a little bit skeptical about what’s going on and figure out how to hold schools accountable in myriad ways, both quantitative and qualitative, , without of course Focusing so much on accountability that we pose additional burdens.
[00:16:59] [00:17:00] we want to do it in a way that lifts burdens per students and teachers where tests and accountability can become a tool for future learning. So, well, I know we could talk about this forever Gerard, because it’s fascinating and it’s going to be, it’s going to be just. Turkey day conversation.
[00:17:14] It’s so many homes. I know that’s, everybody’s going to have accountability on the mind. , Gerard, we have got a very new England guests coming up after this. if any of you are, I know even those of you who live in warmer climates often, , what’s the song I’m dreaming of a white Christmas.
[00:17:31] If you listen to this kind of music around the holiday season. So for those of us up here in new England, it’s. It’s dark and we’re going to be, , huddled around, the Thanksgiving table, looking for some warmth and today’s author he’s written about, for example, Henry Wadsworth, Longfellow, great new England poet.
[00:17:48] Many of us know his work without knowing we even know his work. We’re going to be speaking with Nicholas Basbanes coming up right now.[00:18:00]
[00:18:21] Learning curve listeners. Welcome back. And today we are with Nicholas Basbanes. He’s the author of 10 critically acclaimed works of cultural history with a particular emphasis on various aspects of books and book culture. I just love it. A gentle madness, bibliophiles biblio mains in the eternal passionate.
[00:18:40] His first book was a finalist for the national book critics circle award for non-fiction in 1995 and was a New York times notable. On paper, the everything of its 2000 year history was one of three finalists for the Andrew Carnegie metal for excellence in non-fiction and was named best book of the year by seven major publications.
[00:18:59] , in [00:19:00] 2016, he was awarded a public scholar research fellowship by the national endowment for the humanities. His second NEH grant for work on cross of snow. A life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow published in 2020 as Kristoff erasure wrote in the wall street journal review. Inspired superbly. Longfellow is the perfect poet for our current moment.
[00:19:21] Basbanes writes about him with generosity, gentleness and grace, Nicholas. Basbanes welcome to the show.
[00:19:28] Nicholas: Thank you for that wonderful introduction.
[00:19:30] Cara: Yeah, we’re really happy to have you. I think, especially, I mean, I sit up here in new England. My co-host is not, he gets to talk about his home state of Virginia quite a bit, but Longfellow especially feels very new England and inappropriate for this.
[00:19:44] Cultural moment, but this time of year, so we’re really excited to have you now. I don’t know if I can call myself a bibliophile, but boy, do I love to read? And the history of books is a fascinating topic. You’ve written several books about the history of books, [00:20:00] so share for our listeners. and the educators and students that we have, who listen to this show from the epic of Gilgamesh and Homer to Dante Shakespeare, Longfellow, Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes poetry might be the most influential.
[00:20:17] Enduring form of written human expression. Explain that what’s
[00:20:20] Nicholas: well, I, think you hit the nail on the head there, when you talk about influential and enduring, I think, you know, enduring would begin with that. You mentioned Gilgamesh, the Sumerian epic. Well, that, that is a, an oral originally and an oral tradition.
[00:20:36] An epic poem, which we call an epic poem and was composed 5,000 years ago, which is at the Dawn of, writing. , it was an existence about 2000 BC and we have our first recorded. writing of it and which have been preserved on baked clay tablets from the Sumerian era dating to 1000 BC.
[00:20:56] , that was written over a thousand years before Homer wrote the [00:21:00] Iliad and the Odyssey, which again, they’re all. Poems designed to be read aloud or to be sung as songs and then re and then recorded down, documented, on a variety of a recording surfaces. We use paper today, but we’ve used all sorts of recording, and and we talk about holler , , and the Odyssey and the Iliad. We have the, uh, the indeed by virtual the opening line. As I sing, I sing to you of arms and the man that when you think of any number of. National epics. I mean, you talk about, mentioned Virgil’s at need. You have Dante and writing in the vernacular in the 14th century, the divine comedy, you know, the song of Roland, the song of Roland, again, very important 11th century France, the poem of the Cid in Spain.
[00:21:42] So when you think of national poems that celebrate a national identity, it is invariably through poetry and beginning going back, as we said, thousands of. And the oral tradition. And let’s just, just think who was the national poet of England? Well, he’s the Dramatists, the playwright, [00:22:00] William Shakespeare, but fundamentally he was a poet writing, a blank verse.
[00:22:05] I ethic pentameter, all of his great speeches and all of the great plays are inverse. And of course we call them the great Bard of Avon. So this is the tradition from which Henry. Longfellow Springs. he was determined to write a great American, epic, drawing on distinctively, uniquely American traditions and customs.
[00:22:27] And he attempted this. And I think he succeeded in a number of instances, beginning with Evangelina and, the first, of his long narrative poems and He follows that with, , Hiawatha , and he follows that with. the courtship of miles Standish, each one of these, a distinctively American theme drawing in American traditions and speaking to the American people of, of their shared cultural identity.
[00:22:51] So I guess that’s a long roundabout way of answering your question, but answer it in the.
[00:22:57] Cara: Yeah, no, but, and you’re also bringing me back to [00:23:00] my, I don’t want to say how long ago, but days of course, as an English major in some of these works that you’ve listed as being, you know, songs. , certainly, really, if you’ve ever sat with the.
[00:23:11] And you’ve sat with the texts, especially in a group of other people, you realize that they of course lend themselves to being read aloud and one can understand and feel so much more of it. I also listening to you. And since we do have some educators who are out there in our audience, I want to put in a plug for something that my kids wonderful school does.
[00:23:29] And that is poem in your pocket day. And the ground rules are simply that you have to have a poem in your pocket and anybody can stop you at any time. You to read that poem. So going back to that great oral tradition. Now I’ve already asked you a little bit about Longfellow, but we want to talk a lot more about him.
[00:23:46] so your biography of Longfellow is considered definitive. and I think that many would say he is regarded as perhaps America’s most recognizable fireside poet, of course, from new England. Talk to us [00:24:00] a little bit about Longfellow. Life. he had the tragic death of his second wife. And, what is it that made him such a celebrated literary figure in our.
[00:24:11] Nicholas: Well, I think he is. Yes, he is. He was easily the most celebrated. That’s a good, that’s a very important word. Do you celebrated poet of the 19th century? He was more than a poet. He was a public figure. And I think in that regard, he goes, he transcends poetry. He was read, he was appreciated. He was beloved by every demographic and by people of all ages.
[00:24:34] Children. He wrote most accessibly and invitingly. But when you think of, people of lawyers, professionals, uh, president Lincoln, going into the 1860s was brought to tears. When he was read, the building of the ship and that wonderful line in there saying sail on or union strong and great. You know, we talk about president Lincoln.
[00:24:55] We talk about it in England, queen Victoria. So Longfellow was [00:25:00] an American poet, but beloved not only in the United States as a cultural figure, but throughout the world, his poems were translated and read and no fewer than 30 languages, throughout the world. When he visited England in 1868, he was received by queen Victoria, who might.
[00:25:17] And how the servants, the domestic staff and the Windsor castle were hiding behind curtains to get a vantage point, to see the great American poet. And she asked them later, how do you know this poet? Well, they all knew his poetry and they all loved his poetry. , and that had a lot to do with his.
[00:25:35] who he was, he was a man of extraordinary decency. he was a very moral person. He was born in 1807. He graduated from Boden college in Maine at the age of 18. He graduated at the age of 18. He was a. Uh, class at one of his classmates and B and later in life, one of his great, great friends was Nathaniel Hawthorne.
[00:25:56] That was quite a class credit graduating class at Bowman. And there were other [00:26:00] great achievers on his graduation day. Uh, prior to graduation day, he gave an address because he graduated with honors and the topic of his address was, are native writers. Even at the age of 18, he was calling for the creation and the development and the evolution of a distinctively American literature.
[00:26:22] We were still in the early years of the 19th century, you know, when America was still in the very earlier in the infancy of developing and national literary tradition and he was mindful of. And he wanted from these earliest days, from the earliest stages that we have records of him. He wanted to be a writer and a professional writer, and he didn’t, he came from a very distinguished fan.
[00:26:44] but he was not from a family of great wealth and his father who was a lawyer in Portland, Maine, you know, insisted you can’t make a living doing this. He wanted him to be like himself, a lawyer, a young Henry. , I didn’t argue with them because, but he respected his father, but , they reached a consensus.
[00:26:59] [00:27:00] Well, you’ll come study in the, in, in my lawyer office. And meanwhile, maybe you can , take some graduate studies at Harvard and you can study literature. Commencement date on the graduation date and he’s 18 years old. The trustees, , at Bowdoin college vote to establish a professor. And modern European languages and bell let, there were only three other colleges in the United States at that time that had such a program, Harvard, William, and Mary, and the university of Virginia.
[00:27:28] They had received a bequest and lo and behold, they recommended that young Henry Longfellow age 18, a B. Be appointed to that position. He had already distinguished himself and translating, , some odes , , from the Latin, , Horace in particular. , and he had impressed everyone , , and they thought he would be perfect for the job, but there was a catch.
[00:27:49] He would have to go to Europe. He’s 18 years old, 1825 at his own expense. And to learn the languages, he would be expected to take. And because he was a very [00:28:00] decent, moral, trustworthy young man. I mean, consider sending your child abroad at the age of 18 and 1825 and spending what turned out to be three and a half years in Europe, traveling through multiple countries, spending time in Spain and Italy and Germany and England and France and everywhere he goes.
[00:28:19] He not only learns these language. And so he can come back and teach them and he will learn six. He will learn six fluently this time around and he will do this again. 10 years later, before he takes over a similar position at Harvard, he ultimately will know 12 languages read them fluently. And his library at Longfellow was in Cambridge.
[00:28:41] So there are over 10,000 books in 45 different dialects in a dozen or so languages, all of which he could read fluently and speak fluently. , , he came back. , he taught these languages, , , at Boden for a seven, years or so. He’s began to introduce to American readers. This is important [00:29:00] because not only did he want to develop an American literary tradition, he was determined to adapt.
[00:29:06] Borrow not to, I don’t, I don’t mean borrow in the sense of plagiarize or poach material, but traditions forms of, , , a poetic form and meter. And he learned them and he, would absorb these and he was determined to absorb all of these different traditions. He hoped to create one that would be distinctively American.
[00:29:25] And I think to a great extent, he succeeded at that, but at the same time, and we can argue, and I do in the book that he is arguably, I think our first, , long before that this phrase enters the language, uh, multiculturalist, because he believes he wrote to his sisters from Europe. He said the moral language is a man who.
[00:29:45] Of course you could say, man or woman, the more languages a person knows the more he or she as a man or a woman. , the more languages that you learn, , the more you are a human being and not only languages, but literature is what he meant. [00:30:00] Washington Irving and Spain, Washington Irvin gave him great advice.
[00:30:04] Young men don’t just learn the languages, but learn the literature. So this, I think this trip to Europe at the age of 18, he comes back at the age of 22. He’s a full professor at Boden college and he so distinguishes himself. , he is credited with introducing to American readers, , the works of no fewer than 25 German authors, including Guetta and Schiller.
[00:30:26] He, is credited with introducing so many different Spanish writers and traditions to American readers. There were no textbooks available while he was at Boden in the seven years, he taught them. He translated his own, his own books. The very first books he publishes are his own translations from these various languages as premise.
[00:30:45] So he can pass among his students. And then you can still find them in antiquarian circles. I mean, they’re very important books. So this is how he begins to go back when he arrived in the Bowden campus. And he started that he was a freshmen at the age of 15 or [00:31:00] 14 or so he was already a published poet, even though his father discouraged.
[00:31:05] From being a writer, he wrote poetry. He submitted these poems to various newspapers. And at the age of 13, his first poem was published in the Portland newspaper. So we start with this young man, he then, and then after seven or eight, Lo and behold, he w he’s eager to leave. He loves me and he’s from Maine, but he feels after having traveled and visited all these world capitals, he wants to perform on a larger stage.
[00:31:31] And, , he got out of the woodwork quite literally. He is offered a similar position at Harvard to succeed the great George techno and the Smith professorship. And now he is required to go to. Again, and to learn more languages quite specifically, to become more proficient than the Germany and the. He travels.
[00:31:50] And he takes with him, his young wife, , his first wife, Mary store, a Potter, a long fellow, a young, lovely woman, a neighbor of his and [00:32:00] Maine and tragically. She dies. And we really, because they are very reticent people, we know very little about her pregnancy, whether even she was pregnant when they set sail, but six months after they arrived in Europe, she had a miscarriage and she died.
[00:32:15] Horribly, , 54 or so days later, and Henry was totally distraught and he sold it on. He continued his work, , hoping to try to make a long story short here, but he’s traveling to take a break before returning to teach at Harvard. He meets this young woman. And, , in Switzerland, Francis Appleton, Longfellow traveling with her family.
[00:32:36] She’s a beacon hill, a young woman, , from a very, very prominent, , a wealthy, new England family and Henry falls for her , in the biggest way, uh, because she is a brilliant young woman. I mean, , she, herself has been tough. Bye magnificent private tutors. She speaks multiple languages.
[00:32:54] She translates as well with him, some poem from the German, and we couldn’t be more [00:33:00] impressed. There’s a courtship. Well, we call it a courtship. It was only one way. It took seven years for these two to get together. , I spent a good bill, did a bit of time. , I’m very proud of the fact that we won’t probably get to the, to this and the time we are talking here, but I regard this as much a, biography of Fanny Appleton, Longfellow as much as it is of Henry and that we don’t, we won’t have time also to get deeply into the choice of the title cross of snow.
[00:33:27] But this is a tribute. He writes to her 18 years after her horrible death. After 18 years of marriage. , in which, which also coincide with the 18, most productive years of his life, it was, it w it was 18 years of extraordinary product. They, I I’ve just written finished, , an essay, which I hope to be published in a major literary journal.
[00:33:51] I expect it will be, but I call it meeting of the minds, the intellectual partnership, if Henry was with Longfellow and [00:34:00] Francis Appleton Longfellow, because she was, I won’t say she was his collaborator, but she read everything. That he wrote, she commented on it. She advised him in several instances.
[00:34:11] She even proposed poems that he wrote one of which, the arsenal of Springfield. She was quite the Abbott. She was a abolitionist. she was , fiercely against arms and warfare of, , any form. And, uh, and all of these, all of these factors had a great impact on Henry. She died tragically and in a, horrible way, their life.
[00:34:33] I have a chapter in the book. I called chem a lot on the Charles. I mean, life couldn’t have been any better than he is at the top of his game. Uh, oh, the three narrative poems. I mentioned they’re all written and published during this period. So many other of his most famous works, Paul Revere’s right.
[00:34:47] The building of the ship, these all, these are all written and published during the year, these years. In July of 1861, just a few months after the outbreak of the civil war, they have now five children, three [00:35:00] daughters, , two sons, and on a hot July day , this was a custom and these days she is sealing, sealing.
[00:35:09] A little snippets of golden here from one of her daughters, her daughter, Edith Edith with golden hair. And she is attempting to seal , these locks of, , , , blonde hair, into small envelopes with a candle. And somehow because only the girls were witnessed to this, the young. Uh, some, some dripping wax fell on her dress.
[00:35:29] This crinoline dress, these dresses, which were terribly flammable in an instant, she burst into flames. I ran a shrieking to the study and long thoughts were Henry was taking an afternoon nap. Try and furiously to put out the flames. All he had was a little throw rug. He’s severely burned, and , she just very tragically, , passes away the next morning.
[00:35:53] And in an instant you talk about a night Delek life being turned upside down. Uh, This was [00:36:00] now the second loss , of a woman that he loved dearly. He loved his first wife dearly. And now this woman with his bride of 18, when he married Fanny, he wrote in his journal, it was a Vita Nova, a new life of happiness.
[00:36:15] And now all of a sudden that was good. But he never, lost his faith or his courage or , what he had to do. He was now a single father with a young five young children. He wrote to a very close friend. He said to the, out to the world, outside outwardly, I am kind of. But inwardly, I am bleeding to death.
[00:36:34] And so now he turns to other things for the short run, he turns to translation returns to translation because , he’s translated many other works and it becomes the first American to translate the whole of Dante into English. And if he did nothing else, if he didn’t ever write a single poem of his own, his significance as a literary.
[00:36:57] For that alone, , would elevate him [00:37:00] to us to a statute where we would have to pay attention to him. I interviewed a number of people for this book, and I can’t tell you, including Harold bloom, the great Harold bloom, the late Harold bloom, , Dean of American critics who felt that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow’s translation of Dante and his view was the best because of his accuracy and his fidelity to what Dante was trying to say.
[00:37:23] To his readers, not just what the translator thought his readers were trying to, pass on to the, to the readers. Henry lives for another 22 or 23 is after the death of Fanny, but those years are so central. And on the 18th anniversary of her death, they were married for 18 years.
[00:37:41] And numbers were very important to him one night and his, and the sadness in his bedroom. He writes out this sonnet, the cross of snow from which I derive there, the title of my book, and it’s attributed to his wife. And it’s a, classic sonnet of 14 lines. And he’s contemplating [00:38:00] two paintings, one that hangs in the second floor bedroom of his well.
[00:38:05] It’s across from his bed and only he sees this painting. I mean, it’s a very personal, private part, a painting. That’s the first eight lines of the poem and the final six lines as, a contemplation of a painting known to millions of people, re of the recently discovered mountain in the Colorado Rockies, which somehow displays on its side.
[00:38:25] the figure of a cross and snow, and it’s visible all year round and they’re caused a sensation. So it was this contemplation of these two pictures and what he says in the long sleepless watches of the night, a gentle face, the face of one long dead looks at me from the wall, went round its head, the night lamp casts, a halo of pale light here in this room.
[00:38:45] She died. It never sold more white, never threw monitor demo for. What has led to which repose or Ken and books be read the legend of a life more better day. He switches to the mountain and the distant west. He said there is a mountain in the distant [00:39:00] west that sun defying and its deep ravines displays across the snow upon its side.
[00:39:06] Such as the cross I, where upon my breasts, these 18 years through all the changing scenes and seasons changeless, that’s the day she died. It’s just an amazing poem. When he finished it was so personal. He folded it, put it in an envelope, left it with his personal papers. It was discovered after his death and published posthumously.
[00:39:27] And I thought, not only is this an extraordinary exceptional. To this woman who is such a partner to him, but also one of the finest songs ever written by an American. And I say this, , just, I really challenge anyone to tell me, , an American poet who writes a better sonnet that Henry was with Longfellow.
[00:39:47] he is an absolute master of the sonnet form. Well, speaking
[00:39:51] GR: of Paul’s. My co-host Kara mentioned that she lives in the Boston area. I’ve had a chance to visit and on one visit, I had an opportunity to see [00:40:00] the black soldiers monument in the city. And it was just amazing to think about what, , mainly those.
[00:40:07] formerly enslaved Africans with some of those free man decided to do, to fight against the civil war. And speaking of that in 1842, Longfellow wrote poems on slavery, uh, call them attention to the institution amongst his closest friends was the abolitionists us Senator of Massachusetts Charles summer, who many would know in 1856 was nearly beaten to death on the floor of the Senate because of.
[00:40:32] Anti-slavery speech. Would you talk to us about what teachers, students, even families should know about? Longfellow’s poems on slavery? , his literary, connection with Senator Sumner and his friendship with new England abolitionists
[00:40:48] Nicholas: and. Okay. That’s a great question. And I think I’m really pleased that you asked it because I’ve been asked before by some people why, how can I explain Longfellow’s and this [00:41:00] was an actual question is with, on the matter of slavery, because some people feel that he could have been more, more.
[00:41:08] We’re active in this and the poetry that he wrote in his career, , like Whittier, for instance, more fiery. Well, those poems that you just mentioned, the poems on slavery, seven poems were published in 1842. Now this is 10 years before 10 years before Harriet Beecher stows, uncle Tom’s cabin. And he wrote, about slavery as a horrific institution.
[00:41:29] And there was seven great one called a slave. Dismal swamp in which he hunted me row. That was the words that he used on the run and Ferman lane from repeated beatings lies, crunched in the rank and tangle grass, like a wild. And the layer, he writes another one called the slaves dream and the central image, there is the drivers whip that maintains Otter among the oppressed.
[00:41:52] Another one, he calls the quadroon girl about a young woman who’s taken from her family and brought to, the United States for any number of [00:42:00] different, unspeakable purposes. And my, very favorite of them all as the witnesses. Which describes a sunken ship, half buried in the sands in which lies, skeletons and chains with shackled feet and hands.
[00:42:14] These are the bones of slaves. He writes, they gleaned from the abyss. They cry from the yawning waves. We other witnesses. Now, some people might’ve felt that those weren’t powerful pumps. I think they’re pretty powerful poems and they used imagery and they were powerful enough that one of his publishers refuse to include them in a collection of his works.
[00:42:33] He did stimulate discussion and he was the first American poet to do that. The first American writer of consequence to do that, w they were so, far-reaching and influential that, Whittier his friend and other fireside. Asks him to run for Congress and the Liberty and the under the banner of the Liberty party, which is newly formed, but it was a very, very clear abolitionist party, Longfellow declines.
[00:42:59] [00:43:00] He says, I do not fly under any political banner, his feelings, his convictions were very well-known. Now you ask about Charles Sumner, literary connector it’s beyond literary connection. There was his closest dearest. They were absolutely soulmates. And when, when and Sumner knew Fanny Appleton, they both lived in beacon hill.
[00:43:21] And so he knew the family, but, and as much as he loved her and became very friendly and was as devoted to her as Henry, was he despaired when Henry, when they married, because he was losing, , not losing, he thought he might be losing his closest friend, but Sumner said something to writing a letter to Francis.
[00:43:39] Labor said, do not expect war owes from Longfellow. That is not what Longfellow does. He said, Longfellow speaks to the people on common ground and he speaks for all of them and, and, and all of their convictions, you know, later he writes, , Paul Revere’s ride well, purportedly that. The revolutionary war, [00:44:00] but it’s more than that.
[00:44:00] This is published on the Eve of this, literally on the Eve of the civil war. South Carolina has just has to see seated , from the union and the final six lines of that poem. He says for a born on the night, wind up the past to all our history, to the last, in the hour of darkness and peril in need, the people will waken.
[00:44:20] We’ll wait. Future
[00:44:22] GR: tense and listen, to
[00:44:24] Nicholas: hear the hurrying of beats out of that steep and the midnight message of Paul Revere. He’s talking about preserving the union and the preservation of the union is so important to him and part and parcel of that. Of course. Is there a connection. That people, , human beings are not chattel.
[00:44:41] They are not property. And I just find that, , those poems on slavery, I really underappreciated and undervalued for what they did and for what they performed. And I’m delighted that you asked that question. You mentioned the psycho down a relief up on beacon hill. That’s the 54th Massachusetts regiment.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] You know, only in Boston, I think that you have had something like this happen, where you have , these free blacks, , being encouraged to sign up and to serve. And they March off on beacon hill, Henry was there. He was at his father-in-law’s house and he watched the press. He watched the procession, he cheered them as they marched off to their here.
[00:45:20] , Phaeton and proven to everyone that, , , black people not only could fight, but they could fight honorably and decisively and with great credit. And it was an, extraordinary situation and Henry was fully in support of that, but Sumner was very, very, very important individual in his life.
[00:45:38] And also of course, as we know in the abolition, cause
[00:45:42] GR: not only did Longfellow write about slavery and his child. He also wrote poems that helped people then and now think about religious Liberty, whether it was, events, Dylan, about a Catholic Acadian girl in her search for a lost love. , during the time of the expulsion of the [00:46:00] Acadians to Louisiana fact, my family’s from Louisiana or his 1854 log the Jewish cemetery at Newport.
[00:46:09] Same similar theme, you know, what should we, as educators and students, as families is just people think about these poems and the broader ideas of America and religious.
[00:46:21] Nicholas: Well, thanks. about, what you just asked me, both of these questions. Again, both of these poems deal with Paul American situations.
[00:46:29] Evangelina is this, and this is the first of the three long narrative poems. But think about it. It’s about a Catholic woman, a woman who is now the heroine of an epic poem. This is almost unprecedented, isn’t it? And, and we’re talking about Catholics and, and, and British. What was, you know, at the time.
[00:46:49] Expulsion of the Acadians, you know, British north America. , and of course at the, premise of the story, is that on their wedding? This couple , is separated. He has sent off and [00:47:00] she spends the rest of her life searching for him. Henry heard about that by the way, from his friend, Nathaniel Hawthorne at dinner, and the author gave him the idea for that story and he ran with it.
[00:47:10] And, , we had this magnificent Pullman Longfellow did do with, by the way, in a very interesting meter, a meter of, , dactylic, examiners, which was, the meter , of the class. , the epic poems, the Greek poems, because he wanted to kind of have an impact. It’s this classical epic theme, but this is, this was a poem, a celebration of religious freedom, but also gender.
[00:47:33] , we’re talking about a woman who was, who triumphs in the end, and she’s a very, she never loses her faith or our hope. The Jewish cemetery at Newport is also a very interesting poem. , Discovered this cemetery and Newport Rhode Island in 1850, when he was in Newport with his family for the summer.
[00:47:51] And he went out for a walk and he records this in his diary and he comes across. If it’s still there, if you ever have a chance to get down to Newport this, uh, this Jewish [00:48:00] cemetery, which is established in 1657, I think it was just, uh, not the cemetery, but the synagogue, which remains the oldest standing synagogue.
[00:48:09] And north America. So this, this group of, of a Portuguese Sephardic Jews came to Rhode Island in 1650s, fleeing religious oppression and Europe. And they were welcome in Rhode Island because we’re an island, as you know, was founded by Roger Williams as a Haven, as a place for people of all faiths to assemble and to live.
[00:48:32] And Henry is walking and he sees. Walking down and, uh, and downtown Newport. And he sees this cemetery behind locked gates. By this time, by the way, the Jewish settlement , has scattered. They’re no longer in Newport. This is a consequence of the American revolution. , Newport was a thriving Seaport and after revolution, it wasn’t.
[00:48:50] And so the very, the Jewish merchants , and families went to other cities. So the Jewish community was no longer there, but the synagogue was still there and it is now [00:49:00] active again. But there was this grave rat and he sees. And he sees these inscriptions and he was locked in. There’s a caretaker and the caretaker takes him in and he tells him about some of the names and the descriptions, of course, being a very, um, very knowledgeable, so many different languages and dialects, Henry Henry tells the story of, of these wandering Jewish tribes.
[00:49:22] , and of course there was so much antisemitism, but you won’t find any of that in his poem. It’s exceedingly simple. He writes, with great sensitivity , about the migration of, , not only the Jewish people, but all sorts of, , people that were with, , various faiths and convictions, , escaping and finding Haven, , a Haven in the new world and particularly here.
[00:49:42] So it’s a remarkable poem and a remarkable, very, very, very remarkably sensitive poem. And it written again by ever remarkable sensitive man.
[00:49:56] GR: Well, what else we’d love for you to do is just to read a passage of your choice. [00:50:00]
[00:50:01] Nicholas: Okay. Well, I’ve chosen a little segment, which I think is really appropriate for the season that we’re in.
[00:50:10] It doesn’t really need much of a backstory. It just that it is 1863. it’s during the civil war two weeks after two years after the death of his wife. , and he’s taken care of his children. In the meantime, his oldest son, Charlie has run away and joined the union army and he’s in Virginia, but Henry has also turned off to, to, , doing the tales of a wayside in and his Dante.
[00:50:36] Here we go. 15,000 copies, Henry wrote in his notebook for November 25th, 1863. Marking with those three words, the publication of tales of a wayside in adding that the publishers had dined with him that night to celebrate joining Henry the next day for Thanksgiving dinner with Tom Appleton and Harriet Appleton, who son [00:51:00] Nathan Appleton, Jr.
[00:51:01] Jr. Like Charlie was a junior officer serving on the front line. We drank the health of all the lieutenants in the army of the Potomac Henry road. Charlie having recently returned to duty after a suffering about of camp fever, a term used for a variety of contagious illnesses and demic to the close quarter, military encampments of the period, most severely typhoid fever, which took the lives of more soldiers during the civil war than injuries inflicted.
[00:51:30] Charlotte had fallen grievously ill with one of these elements, not long after receiving his commission word, reaching Henry and Portland on June 11th, where he was visiting with his sister and setting off immediately for Washington. He arrived within a day of hearing the news. Charlie was assigned to a bed and the home of a Unitarian minister.
[00:51:49] Taking a hotel room for himself and me spent the next few weeks by Charlie’s bedside visiting occasionally with Sumner and host of government officials eager to meet him [00:52:00] yesterday. Sunday, I heard the distant Cantonese. Mingling in with the sound of the church bells and the chanting of the choir and the church close by.
[00:52:10] He wrote on June 22nd, a paradox. He would recall six months later when inspired to write Christmas bells adapted many times in the years ahead to say Yuletide tide song most famously by Johnny Marks in 1956. As I heard the bells on Christmas day and recorded that year by Bing Crosby, the opening stands on the song is the same as in Henry’s poem.
[00:52:33] I heard the bells on Christmas day. They’re old familiar carols play and wild and sweet. The words. Repeat of peace on earth. Goodwill to men to stands is typically left out of the Carol speak directly to the horrors of the civil. Then from each black, , Chris at both the cannon thundered in the south and with the sound that Carol’s drowned of peace on earth, Goodwill to men, [00:53:00] it was as if an earthquake rent the Hearthstones of a continent and made for Lauren the households born of peace on earth, Goodwill to men picking up at the next stanza, the song and the poem conclude with hope.
[00:53:15] And in despair, right? Bowed my head. There is no peace on earth. I said for hate is strong and mocks the song of peace on earth, Goodwill to men, then peel the bells more loud and deep. God is not dead nor Duffy sleep that wrong shall fail the right prevail with peace on earth, Goodwill to men. Thank you.
[00:53:40] , I love that poem , and like so many other poems that he wrote, it resonates to this day. You know, when you think of the building of the ship, which is from the 1840s. And he writes that that verse of sail on are union strong and great brings Abraham Lincoln to tears. Franklin Roosevelt is so [00:54:00] moved during world war II, who the darker steps of world war II.
[00:54:02] He writes it out from memory at longhand and sends it to Winston Churchill who reads it before the house of commons prior to the battle of Britain. And you just, so people say, does Longfellow not resonated. Oh, it’s the power of the poet in the 20th century and the 21st century. I don’t think so, but, , that’s just one person’s opinion.
[00:54:41] Cara: And before we leave you all listeners, of course, we have to leave you with a tweet of the week. It is a new report alert. Our friend Patrick Wolf was tweeting about this, which is how it came to our attention. The quote is study of public school funding and spending for fiscal year [00:55:00] 2018 and 19 is out average per pupil.
[00:55:03] Funding continued its steady increase to $14,347 per pupil. Funding is still significantly lower for charter schools than district run schools. And that is a national center for education statistics report, not shocking, , $14,347. Now I know we are in a moment of inflation. But that sounds like pretty big leap from where we were even just 10 years ago.
[00:55:28] And let’s not forget folks that those numbers are way higher in a lot of school districts across the state. And of course they’re lower in some as well. So, those inequities run deep, especially when it comes to charters. Which often suffer from, for example, a lack of facilities funding. we should really be thinking about adjusting for greater equity in our funding, formulas folks.
[00:55:50] Just another thought to leave you with at the Thanksgiving table and Gerard, as you know, next week, we are going to be joined by Matt Chingos of the UrbanInstitute. [00:56:00] Gerard, I hope that you are vegan. Sausage is absolutely delicious. And if you will, my friend, please send a photo of that Friday. I definitely will.
[00:56:09] All right, everybody, listen, I wish you and yours all the best hope you have a wonderful long weekend and eat at least lots of like vegan apple pie. I hope.
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COVID’s Unintended Victims: Traditional Diseases Overlooked at the Public’s Peril
/in COVID Health, COVID Life Sciences, COVID Podcasts, Featured, Healthcare, News, Podcast Hubwonk, rCOVID /by Editorial StaffThis week on Hubwonk, host Joe Selvaggi talks with Pioneer Institute’s Visiting Fellow in Life Sciences, Dr. Bill Smith, about his newest research paper, “An “Impending Tsunami” in Mortality from Traditional Diseases,” which sounds the alarm that the public health community’s focus on COVID-19 has caused many to avoid seeking medical attention for other illnesses. As a result, more Americans are dying from fear of COVID than from the disease itself.
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Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk, I’m Joe Selvaggi
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston for nearly two years. Fear of COVID-19 has eclipsed the public health attention to other diseases that afflict and kill far more people than the COVID-19 virus while the public has isolated masks and taking more than 7 billion COVID vaccines globally, traditional threats to life from cancer, diabetes, and heart disease have not gone away. Unfortunately, since the outbreak in early 2020 many individuals, fear of COVID have led the, to avoid doctor visits, screenings, and treatment that could identify and treat their disease, this neglect of other lethal, but treatable conditions may already be leading to more Americans to die from fear of COVID. Then we’ll die from COVID itself. How can public health officials correct course from a message that is discouraged all discretionary treatment during the initial phase of the pandemic to one that sounds a loud alarm that we must return our attention to detection and treatment of traditional and far more deadly threats to human health. I guess today’s Dr. Bill Smith visiting life science fellow at Pioneer Institute in his new research piece entitled an impending tsunami in mortality from traditional diseases. Dr. Smith makes the case that our complete focus on COVID-19 has averted the public health attention away from more lethal conditions, such as cancer and heart disease. This lack of attention for other treatable, deadly diseases, coupled with the fear engendered by COVID-19 may well result in more deaths attributable to fear of COVID then to the disease itself. When I return I’ll be joined by Pioneer Institute’s Dr. Bill Smith.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. We’re back. This is Hubwonk. I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m now joined by a visiting fellow in life sciences at Pioneer Institute, and a good friend of the Hubwonk podcast Dr. Bill Smith. Welcome back to the show, Bill. Thank you, Joe. Glad to be here. I want to talk to you or with you about the newest research piece that you just released entitled and impending tsunami in mortality from traditional diseases and implications for public health. It really struck me hard and it gave me a lot to think about let’s start at the beginning for the benefit of our listeners with some background. I’ll just throw in that we’re now approaching the second year of of COVID since it was first discovered in, in China and 2019, hence COVID-19 the diseases reached every part of the world.
Joe Selvaggi:
We know now we have new strains that COVID the Delta Varian, which are both more contagious and more deadly. And you know, these are, this is the bad news. The good news is that we’ve got some effective, safe vaccines and therapies. In fact an earlier episode of have Wonka, we featured the fact that we hope to be approaching zero COVID deaths very, very soon. So this is where we begin. Your paper starts out with some background on how deadly COVID is and compares to some of the diseases mankind has experienced in the past. Let’s start at the very beginning how, how bad and how deadly is COVID compared to other things mankind has encountered?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it’s not as deadly as HIV. It’s not as deadly, probably as the S the Spanish flu and maybe that’s due to therapeutics and vaccines. But it’s even not as deadly as some of our current traditional diseases. So COVID is now probably the number two or three killer in the country. And there was a point in January and February where it was the number one killer, but there was also a point when it was the number seven killer. So it’s a dangerous disease. What I’m not saying in this paper is that we should ignore COVID. But what I’m saying in this paper is that it’s, it’s not the number one killer, and I think public health authorities. I want to take them to task a little bit because they’ve ignored the public health campaigns to have people go and get diagnostic tests for more traditional diseases. I focus on cardiovascular disease, but you could look at any disease, state cancer, mammograms, diabetes, A1C tests, there’s a whole bunch of diagnostic screenings that fell off the cliff during COVID.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I am going to unpack that one, one piece at a time, I guess, a Hublot might be part of that whole movement. Certainly we dedicated quite a few episodes to, to COVID and I, I would agree that COVID seems to have eclipsed all other health, public health issues definitely to the detriment of, of the public health. Where do you think we went? We, we lost our way, so we have, you know, in January, February we discovered this disease. It was rampant in, in China and Italy, and it ultimately arrived on our shores. I remember quite well when everything locked down in early March where you have to expect the public to be frightened and focused on something not well known, not a never before seen where, you know, if you were a public health person, where, where did we lose our way in the beginning?
Dr. Bill Smith:
I, I didn’t, I won’t even say and criticize public health officials in the beginning, because there was so much, there was such a lack of knowledge about how severe this disease was, how quickly it was going to spread and public have felt the health officials were groping around, understandably, trying to figure out how this, how, how deadly this disease was going to be. So I’m not going to criticize them for the, the 2020 period, but once we started getting vaccines and the rates of COVID started dropping, I really think public officials should have said very publicly, go back to the doctor, get your blood pressure, screened, get, get a mammogram, get, get your cholesterol tested. They should have made a conscious effort to say, you know what, it’s safe, relatively safe to go back to the doctor and people that are at risk for these traditional diseases gut should go in and get tested. And they did not do that. They continued talking about COVID non-stop
Joe Selvaggi:
Which in your paper you say creates a, a cultural fear again in the beginning. And certainly much of that is justified as you point out. But that fear does have a downside. You chose in your paper to feature a particular disease. We have many things that can kill us but you, you chose a CVD cardiovascular disease as the, perhaps the emblematic disease of all diseases to to make your point. What made you choose that disease?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I, I knew from the beginning, you know, you know what I do for pioneer, I follow a biotech and pharma policy, and I’m getting a little out of my lane with this paper, but I felt like I had to, because I was, I subscribed to all these healthcare blogs and websites, and I’m constantly following media around healthcare. And I started to see these staggering stories. One of them that jumped out at me was a CDC study that said during COVID mammograms had fallen off the cliff by 87%, 87%, fewer mammograms. Exactly. And I started looking at all the data for our different disease states and, and I became overwhelmed because in virtually every disease area, people were not going to the doctor and getting the traditional tests. So I thought, I can’t write a paper of this size. It’s too big.
Dr. Bill Smith:
I have to narrow it down. And the logical the logical therapeutic area to focus on is cardiovascular disease, because it’s the number one killer. And it’s been the number one killer even during COVID. There were more far more cardiovascular deaths in 2020, and in 2021 than there were COVID deaths. And and I also, the D the data was also very alarming, you know, blood pressure screenings during COVID down 50% cholesterol screenings down 35% stress tests where you might pick up atrial fibrillation or other conditions were down 80%. I mean, the numbers were very concerning, and I thought, I should, I really should write about this
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. So all these tests that have helped keep us healthy fell off a cliff, and one have to assume people remain just as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable being in lockdown with COVID. So we just essentially turned off the light and for all these diseases one of your one of the things we did early on in, in hub walk is in the interest of helping people address their health issues, we promoted and encourage people to use the technology that, that we’re using right now. And this remote technology call it telemedicine, where you can get your doctor from the comfort of your living room and perhaps not have that non-zero risk of getting COVID well, taking a trip to the, to the doctor, your paper addresses that fact that telemedicine was a compliment, but perhaps maybe not the right path for, for everything and everyone. Yeah.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Pioneer has written a lot about tele-health and we’re very enthusiastic about it. We think it should be reimbursed. We think it should be above it. It should be easier to get in touch with your doctor. And tele-health is one way to do that. What I saw in the data concern me that concerned me was that in a telehealth visit during COVID, at least you are less likely, for example, to get a blood pressure screening, less likely to get a cholesterol screening, you might get to talk to your doctor about one thing that’s going on, but you wouldn’t get all the traditional tests. Like if you go, I, I, I broke a rib a couple of months ago. I had to go into the doctor and they, they did a blood pressure test, and they looked at a bunch of things that weren’t related to my ribbon any way. And you, you weren’t getting that. I don’t think you were getting that in telehealth visits. And, and that also has a health disparity angle because minority communities tended to use health tele-health visits more than others. I that’s surprising to me, but that was, that was what the data show. So I’m, I’m an enthusiastic supporter of, of telehealth, but I think there’s a quality issue that some tele-health is this need to be upgraded so that you’re actually getting the diagnostic tests that are, that are essential.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes. And in addition to our a shows on tele telehealth, we did have a actual emergency room doctors who attested that laying of hands is, is, is vital. So we need to see a doctor in real life from time to time. But you also, in your paper measure you, you mentioned the falloff of mammograms. Let’s focus on the the tests that relate to heart disease. How, you know, let’s translate, let’s connect the dots. If I don’t go to my doctor or I don’t get a test share with me which tests or do I have gotten that I’m not getting, or that the public generally is not getting. And how does that translate to a death?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I’m not a cardiologist, but I mean, I would think that blood pressure screenings are the number one thing that should happen. You’re, you’re going to develop heart disease and your heart’s going to muscle is going to suffer. If you’re you’re, you have chronic blood pressure, high blood pressure, that’s hypertension, that’s not being addressed. So I think that’s the number one. And that’s, you know, that may be something that could be done in a telehealth visit, but right now that’s not that common. So that’s the number one thing I think that was missing cholesterol screenings. Of course, if you’re at risk for atrial fibrillation, there’s a whole slew of tests that, that usually you have to go into your doctor to, to, to have a a stress test. There, there’s all sorts of things that that again, fell off a cliff during COVID and cardiomyopathy, a general weakening of the heart, same story there, echocardiograms and all sorts of tests that can be done in the office.
Dr. Bill Smith:
If you’re at high risk for some of these things and your heart muscle baby may be weakening, but a lot of those tests have to have to be done in the office. They can’t be done in a telehealth visit. Now we are seeing, and you probably see it on TV, that there are these devices where you can very selling them on Amazon. You put your two fingers on a device, and it tells you whether your heart is beating properly, and it might be able to diagnose atrial fibrillation. I’m very encouraged by those. I think they should be in great use. But some of them require you to go to your doctor and actually be taught how to use it and be connected to your doctor, not just, you know, take, take it for fun and see it on your phone. So I think the in-person visits should have been encouraged to a greater degree to see cardiologists if you’re an at risk patient or just a normal patient to just go in and get your BP and your and your cholesterol tested
Joe Selvaggi:
Now many of our listeners are thinking, okay, look, I should get these tests. I should see my doctor. But of course, you know, I should brush between meals and these all kinds of great ideas that a lot of people might issue for for convenience exit can’t get around to it. How would we be persuasive in measuring there’s a term we use as in many of the past episodes talking about COVID we talked about COVID deaths, but we talk about excess deaths due to COVID. And, and much of what you’re talking about, I believe is people who will die because they’ve not taken the proper care to go to their doctor. And that will not have been from COVID. Have you, or is your, your paper does attempt to quantify measure how many deaths that might be attributable to non COVID deaths, but that are COVID related owing to people not taking proper precautions with their care.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, agile. I think the answer is we don’t have good data on this and we should. So there was anecdotal data. For example, when my paper came out, the Boston Herald wrote a story about it, saying people weren’t getting the traditional screenings and the chief operating officer for mass general. One of the most important hospitals in the country went on record in that story and said, yes, we’re seeing anecdotal evidence that, that our emergency rooms are getting flooded with patients with non COVID conditions. So heart, heart problems and other problems. And so I think, I think there should be studies that should be done where, you know, researchers go into the emergency room and they say, okay, you’re, you’re, you’re having some heart pains, chest pains. When was the last time you got screened? And we start to try to figure out the hard data on how many people that are showing up now in large numbers are showing up in, in, in large part because they didn’t get screened for 18 or 20 months. That, that I think that would be very valuable data to have. And I think researchers should be out there looking at that.
Joe Selvaggi:
Certainly that seems like a useful tactic because well, heart, I think her problems present dramatically and quickly. I’m also thinking about all those diseases that take longer to kill us like a cancer that we won’t see. And if, again, if we were measuring for excess deaths from cancer from COVID, or those wouldn’t be measurable now, because you would not know that that lump would not be found for, for years perhaps where a visit to the doctor might’ve found it immediately.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Exactly. If you were six years from your last colonoscopy and COVID hit, you might be eight or nine years away from your colonoscopy, that that’s just not a good thing to happen.
Joe Selvaggi:
Right. And so you so have you been able to, in any way in, for, from, let’s say the data that we have you, you had some numbers in your paper talking about comparing the deaths from heart disease in 2020 versus 2021. Fortunately the rates of death from COVID is, are falling. We’ve got effective vaccines and therapies they’re falling fairly dramatically. Whereas heart disease is going in the other direction. At what point given that there’s so many more people dying from heart disease than are dying from COVID, at what point should it appear on the radar of the public health? In other words, when should the headline and the Kyron on CNN start talking about heart disease deaths instead of COVID?
Dr. Bill Smith:
I think it should have happened six months ago. I mean, that’s what I wrote in my paper that there should have been a public health campaign to encourage people to go back to their doctor and get some of these tests. And I would even, I would even recommend, again, we don’t know how ominous that the tsunami that I I warn about is going to be, but I would even recommend that we set up set up tent cities in like neighborhoods like we did for the COVID vaccine or COVID tests where people can go and get a blood pressure screening and a cholesterol screening easily, particularly in minority neighborhoods. Just we’re going to do this for free. We’re coming into your neighborhood. We’re setting up in the parking lot, come by and we’ll, we’ll screen your blood pressure. Those are the kinds of things that public health officials should be doing in, in large numbers.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, we’re going to get to the, the, if you were king for a day recommendations, cause you had a few of those in your paper, and then towards the end, I just want to put a fine point on it at this point. I think you’re comfortable in asserting that, whereas COVID is a pretty bad a disease that killed a lot of people more than 750,000 Americans. So we don’t want to make light of that, but at this point in the process, the fear of COVID and that fear that, that keeps us from our doctor is far more lethal. And in fact, a far greater public health threat than COVID itself and therefore should be treated as it’s COVID related because the fear is COVID related, but it should be treated as dramatically and comprehensively as we treated the actual disease of COVID
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s my view. I mean, COVID was the leading killer for maybe two months during this whole period. And cardiovascular disease was the one killer for most of the months during this period. And I just think public health officials should have had more context and said to people, look you’re most the overwhelming percentage of older Americans are vaccinated. You can go to the doctor and you can get tested. Now, go back. Now that that should have been happening when vaccination rates started to peak.
Joe Selvaggi:
So again, now we’ll get to the king for a day. There are many policy makers who listened to the show public health leaders maybe they knew it in the back of their mind. They said, okay, wait, you’re right. We’ve been you know, COVID turn up to 11 every day we’re we’re missing the forest for the trees here. If you were king for a day, what would you change? What would be some of the first things you would say?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I made three, three recommendations in the paper. The first one I’ve already talked about a major public health campaign to encourage people to go back to their doctor and get these diagnostic tests that may be a TV campaign. It may be just public health officials talking about it when they get on TV and to talk about COVID. They also mentioned these other conditions and remind people to go back. So that that’s the first thing, a public public affairs campaign to remind people this, the second recommendation I make is make it easier for people to get medications. So you, you do finally go back to your doctor and they give you a prescription and suddenly you have a $200 co-insurance payment and you don’t fill your prescription. I just think for a year or two, we ought to have a reduction in copays and out-of-pocket costs so that people actually filled their medications and take them right away.
Dr. Bill Smith:
There was for example a number that I saw in one of these studies, a tour of a stat in which is the lipid lowering drug Lipitor, when it was branded it’s the most commonly prescribed drug in the country, a tour of a stat and prescriptions were down 9% during COVID. And if you think about the number of a tour bus Caton prescriptions in a year, it’s over a hundred million, which means that there are 10 million, fewer prescriptions for this lipid lowering drug, important drug being prescribed. And I just think we’ve got to get people back in and taking some of these cheap, generic medications for, for blood pressure or, or, or lipid lowering. And on the more expensive medications we ought to have lower out-of-pocket cost so people can actually afford them. So that was sort of my second recommendation to encourage people to get back on their meds if they haven’t gone to the doctor, or if they’re going to the doctor for the first time in a year, and they get diagnosed with something, they get encouraged to fill their prescriptions because we know when they show up at the pharmacy and they have a high out-of-pocket costs, a lot of people just walk away, they don’t fill their script.
Joe Selvaggi:
So are you comparing, I, or actually in your paper, you did indeed compare. You said, look, we we know these vaccines work. We know you need them but we’re gonna make the pot a little sweeter and make it free. So as to ensure the greatest uptake possible, you’re comparing other lethal or let’s say life-saving treatments to a vaccine, and you’re saying, let’s apply the same logic. They are to encourage the, you know, to avoid this tsunami of mortality. Let’s, let’s make those
Dr. Bill Smith:
Exactly, at least in a year or two. I mean, how many fewer vaccinations would we have had if they had to queue up first and pay a $20 copay before you went and got your vaccine? I think a lot of people would have just said, forget it. I’m not doing it. So I do think out of pocket costs are an important factor. There are many studies about it, and we should lower them for a couple of years to get people back on chronic medication. So that was my second recommendation. My third recommendation was for the federal government. There is a, I forget what the formal term is. There’s a health preventative task force it’s called
Joe Selvaggi:
Right? The U S the United States preventative services, task force. So it’s got a long acronym USPSTF’s so say more.
Dr. Bill Smith:
And they’re the, the group and the federal government that makes decisions about what diagnostic tests should be, you know, a matter of course, in your annual physical how, how, who should be tested at what age. And there are very esteemed group. Let me just say that there’s a lot of physicians for medical centers around. It’s not just government bureaucrats, it’s, it’s a lot of very, very serious medical professionals on that. And so when I, I got into this paper, I thought I’ll go onto their website. They must be apoplectic that they’ve made so many important recommendations about diagnostic tests that need to be taken for, for Americans. They should be apoplectic that they’re not happening. And you know what, they weren’t, it was, it looked to me on their website and I don’t want to criticize them personally, but it looked to me like it was business as usual, you know, oh, we’re working on this test.
Dr. Bill Smith:
It might tell whether a person in their fifties has diabetes and, you know, they weren’t, there wasn’t an, a red alarm going off, like on top of a fire truck that said, wait a minute, we’re the people that are, are trying to get people to do these tests. And we’re not mobilizing, we’re not, we’re not putting out press releases. We’re not doing studies. We’re not, we’re not educating the population about how important these tests are. And that concerned me and I, I just, so one of my final recommendations is these guys need to get engaged in this public health campaign, and also start putting out some information and data about the important diagnostic tests that are not being performed. The important screenings that are not being performed.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes, it seems to me that it would be, I don’t know if there is such a term called applied health, but all the best science in the world does no good. If it’s sitting on a shelf in a drug store or in the hospital, just like vaccines have to go into arms to, to work these, these treatments that are being developed and need to be prescribed and taken to, to help anyone it’s your future. And, you know, you’ve, you’ve stumbled across something that I think we should have already, as you say, had a red, big red light on at a national level a massive mobilization. Do you aspire to look at other, let’s say health challenges I’m, I’m looking perhaps to a future episode on the effect of COVID on public health. We all know people who have literally been broken by this disease either because they’ve been in isolation in fear. Absolutely terrified. And and you know, these I’m sure there’s a measurable uptick in suicides, or just in general depression. Do you aspire to do, to help us quantify what’s going on in other areas and other diseases in the future?
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s a very interesting topic to me, and I hope people that read my paper are, are decide. We’ve got to do more research in this area, because I think there are conditions. You mentioned mental health, but you know, the headlines yesterday was that we had a hundred thousand opioid deaths during the last year. I mean, that’s astonishing number that’s staggering. That’s much higher than, than, than traffic deaths. And, and nobody’s talking about it. And, and one would think some of it is related to the isolation that happens when, during COVID. And there are, you know, there, there are other therapeutic areas like diabetes and stroke and cancer, where we should be looking at what the implications were, so that if we have another pandemic like this, the lockdowns, don’t say, don’t go to the emergency room, don’t go to the doctor. You know, they admitted during the lockdowns that you have to go to the grocery store and they should have also said, you have to go to the doctor. And, and that really didn’t come through very clearly.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. Now we’re getting close to the end of our time together. You’ve been in you know, a scientist and a, I’m a member of the I guess the big pharma and health community for some time. Why do you think public health has this blind spot? Meaning if you and I, here in Boston, on our podcasts, can identify far more lethal challenges to the American public. Why is it that our public health officials are blind to this and remain focused on a disease that thankfully because of vaccines and therapies is be, you know, we’re, we’re going to rapidly approach zero COVID death.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, I don’t want to be too cynical and read into people’s motives, but it seemed to me that the COVID was a golden moment for the public health community. Right? You could get on, if you were a local public health official, you could get on TV every night and talk about COVID. If you were a federal health, the public health officials, you could be on every cable news show every night. And I don’t know why you would during a pandemic. You’d think you’d be at your desk working for solutions, but a lot of these guys, and I’m not going to name names, cause I don’t want to make it personal, but a lot of these guys just never stopped going on TV. And they realized if I talk about COVID, I can get on TV and I can get in the media and I can be quoted in the New York times. And everybody’s going to ask my opinion and you know, that’s natural, it’s human nature. You would, you would bask in that kind of attention. And it’s also probably true that if you started talking about getting a blood pressure screening, the reporters would fall asleep. They wouldn’t be quite as interested in that topic, but nonetheless, I still think they should have plowed through and tried to get that message out,
Joe Selvaggi:
Right? Not, not fan servicing, they should be committed to actual public health and, and shy away from the spotlight and focused on what, what, what really matters. But we’re doing our part. You’re doing your part, your research piece, I think should grab the attention and perhaps the ship will change course. And we will see public health officials with a red light saying, go see your doctor so that if I’m going to wrap up the show and, and come up with one massive recommendation is all of our listeners ought to put down the podcast and make sure they get the see their primary care physician and, and take the medicine that they’re prescribed as quickly as they can.
Dr. Bill Smith:
I agree, a hundred percent or your specialists, your cardiologists around colleges, whatever your particular health situation is just don’t, don’t be scared by COVID go back and get, get a diagnosis, get a screening, get a test.
Joe Selvaggi:
Oh, that’s great. Well, well, we’ll leave the show there. I appreciate your coming on and, and, and writing such a thoughtful paper. And I think we’re, we’re, we’re part of the change. And and, and you’re a big part of, thank you very much for joining the show again, bill. My pleasure, Joe, Welcome to the hub. The 360 explainer. I’m here with bill Smith of pioneer Institute. Bill. How does the biopharmaceutical business model work? Lots of people have opinions about the pharmaceutical industry. There’s a broad. Hmm. Okay. okay, let me try it again. Okay. This is a long 360 I’m Joey [inaudible]. I’m joined now by pioneer institutes, bill Smith bill, we’re going to talk about the, how the biopharmaceutical business model works. How is it different from other industries?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, Joel, it’s, it’s very different from other industries and I would, there are many ways I could talk about, but let me, let me narrow it down to three. The first way I think it’s different is that it’s the industry with the largest R and D costs. So there are huge costs upfront when developing the medicine. And then generally there are low manufacturing costs. Once you discover the medicine, because it just, you have to put the chemical together in a factory and it may cost three or 4 cents a pill, but it’s going to sell for three or $4 a pill because you’ve done all this R and D and that’s kind of unique. That’s not like the housing industry where the labor costs, the lumber costs, that’s concrete costs are part and parcel of the manufacturing costs. And they’re high. Same with autos. You can’t sell an auto for, for $10,000, if it costs $25,000 to assemble in labor and parts.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So the industry is unique in that way. They have low manufacturing costs and high R and D costs. The second way, I’d say it’s, it’s unique and the chairs this with a few other industries, but not all industries is that it’s indispensable to life. When you make a product that people feel are indispensable. There’s always going to be political fighting over price, just as they’re fighting over this price, fighting over gasoline prices, currently, any essential good for human beings, there’s going to be in a fight over price. Nobody cares about the price of a moderate Maserati, because it’s not essential to your life, but the products that are essential to your life there tends to be political wrangling about prices. And that’s just a natural part of the industry. It’s always going to be part of the industry. And the third thing, I think that makes it unique is the patent system where a branded company does the R and D it’s very expensive.
Dr. Bill Smith:
There’s a 20 year patent, but they only get maybe seven years of patent life where they’re selling the product. A lot of times the product is under patent for 10 or 12 years during the R and D process. So there’s no sales. So for those seven years, they can charge a kind of monopoly price for that product, which is very, very high. But then the product that the patent expires and the product price drops enormously, this is very unique. There aren’t any industries like this. So if you buy a new car for $35,000, you can’t get a used car for a hundred dollars, but actually in the drug industry, you can, when the patent expires on a branded drug, the price will drop to almost nothing to Penny’s. And, and that’s, that’s a unique feature of the industry.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I think what you’re talking about is the generic drug industry. How does the generic drug industry fit into the overall life sciences industry?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it’s, it’s extremely important industry because the, the branded drug industry makes the discoveries. They do the R and D they find the new products, but then once the patent expires the generic industry, drug industry, all they have to do is manufacture it at a, at a low cost. And then it can be sold that at extremely low cost. So just one anecdotal example, when I was at Pfizer, liberatory was our, our flagship product. People told me it was about $4 per pill, and there were tens of millions of people on it. So it was a multi-billion dollar drug. I bumped into a healthcare executive from Michigan the other day, and I asked them what the price of Lipitor was now that it was generic. It’s called a tour of a statin is a generic. He said, we pay about 4 cents a pill.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So it went from $4 to 4 cents. I can’t think of another industry would that kind of thing happens where the product is priced at a certain price, and then at a patent expires, or some other benchmark happens where the price collapses. And, and that’s a unique feature of the industry. And a lot of people don’t understand that, that you shouldn’t look just at the branded price of the product. You should look at the price, the average price of the product over 20 or 25 years, because the generic price needs to be factored in. And I think we have a very good system in the United States where the drug goes generic, the price, the, the it’s a great innovation, and suddenly it’s available to people for pennies.
Joe Selvaggi:
So we, we create one incentive to develop a new drug right. And then that’s the pack. That’s the patent they enjoy. And another path to manufacture the drug in great quantity of low, low costs. So Tucson, one drug.
Dr. Bill Smith:
So the, you know, policymakers that criticized drug prices of branded companies, we could overnight by simply eliminating patents, make drugs, all drugs, extremely cheap, just get rid of all the branded patents. You would not have a new drug discovered. However, if you did that, which we do have the current crop of drugs available for very cheap,
Joe Selvaggi:
We freeze an Amber the current formulary and has no new innovation. Finally, why are there so many drug advertisements on television? Why does the TV tell me what, what drug I should tell my doctor to prescribe to me?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, the, the advertisement was actually annoying to me when I watch football or something else, but there’s, there are so many, it’s counterintuitive to hear this. Some people, but companies go on TV when they’re competing with other drugs, they don’t go. If they, if you discover a first in class new drug, that’s generally not advertised on TV because it’s, there’s going to be demand out there already from the physicians who prescribe it and the patients. But if you invent the third or fourth diabetes drug in a certain therapeutic area in diabetes, you’re going to go on TV and advertise that and highlight the features of why your drug is better and try to get your, your patient, the patient. Who’s watching that ads talk to their doctor about it. It’s part of the competition of the market that people say it doesn’t exist in the drug industry.
Dr. Bill Smith:
That’s actually not true. They advertisements are a sign that it is a very competitive market, and those advertisements are very expensive and they would only spend the money if they thought we’re going to distinguish our brand from the other brands already in the market. And let me also just tell the listeners that you know, how they have these terrible side effects that are mentioned in these ads. So they say you could get oily discharge, you could get headaches, you could get this, you could die. That that is not something that pharma companies want to do that as an FDA requirement. The requirement says that if you mentioned what this drug is indicated for. So if it’s indicated for diabetes, you also have to mention any of the side effects that showed up in the clinical trials. Even if those side effects were quite small minuscule and only touched a small percent of the percentage of the clinical trial population. So that’s why you have those ads where they rushed through the, the the side effects, because it’s, it’s an FDA requirement.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wrap it up there. Bill, thank you for joining hub. Hogwan 360 explainer.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Thank you, Joe.
Joe Selvaggi:
Okay. This is hub Wong 360. I’m now joined by pioneer institutes, bill Smith, bill. We’re going to talk about quality adjusted life years. What are qualities?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Joel qualities are a cost-effectiveness methodology that developed in many of the European countries that have national health services. And if you know anything about national health services in some of these countries like great Britain, they have trouble paying for many of the products because they’re free many of the therapies because they’re free and there’s high demand. So they tried to invent a cost-effectiveness system to rate and value different therapies and qualities are the most commonly used.
Joe Selvaggi:
Why are they pop problematic for patients?
Dr. Bill Smith:
So qualities qualities measure the value of a drug based on its ability to prolong your life and to improve the quality of your life. So you may sound, they may say, oh, that sounds commonsensical, but actually it’s not. So if if you’re 30 years old, you have more life years and you can live longer potentially. So a therapy for a 30 year old may be valued more highly than a therapy for a 70 year old. Same is true on the quality of life side. If you’re living with a disability and someone else’s not living with a disability, the medicine for the person not living with a disability may be rated more highly because it doesn’t have the person doesn’t have quality of life issues. So it gets problematic for a bunch of different populations. And I can go into details. I found the same infirmities in the quality in cancer, as well as rare diseases.
Joe Selvaggi:
Now, what countries use Qualys?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, it was famously invented in great Britain. But most, most countries use it. The Canadians new Zealanders Australians the one major exception to the use of qualities I think is Germany. And not surprisingly Germany is second to the United States in the available availability of new therapies to patients. They don’t block access to new drugs as much as the countries that do use the quality.
Joe Selvaggi:
Now, are there alternatives to qualities in establishing the value of drugs?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah, there, there were a lot of people that try to come up with cost-effectiveness models. I am a, I’m a kind of market guy, and I think we should,
Joe Selvaggi:
We are all are here at pioneer.
Dr. Bill Smith:
Yeah. The common wisdom is smarter than the economist with a slide rule. And so I think the market tends to sort out patients, patients, families, physicians payers pharma companies, all of those actors have different opinions about the value of a medicine. And it ends up getting decided based on the market. You know, if there’s high demand by patients and physicians, health plans are more likely to cover it. If there’s an, a low demand health plans are not likely to cover it. This recent drug approved by Biogen is an example of that. They were hoping it would sell well in the commercial world. And a lot of a lot of physicians didn’t prescribe it and they had very low numbers and there wasn’t high demand. So a lot of health plans are not covering in the commercial world
Joe Selvaggi:
And with the widespread use of qualities in the U S impact research and development. And if so, what drug classes would be most impacted?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, if the the quality methodology that’s adopted is adopted by the Institute for clinical and economic review, which is the U S kind of home base of qualities, if that methodology were adopted, I’d be most concerned about the R and D on rare disease drugs, because rare disease drugs have a very unique business model. You might have three or four or 5,000 patients. It’s a super rare disease. And a company might spend $500 million or a billion dollars developing the drug, and then you only have three or 5,000 customers. So the price of that drug is going to be very high. The methodology used by the quality, in the case of rare disease drugs, don’t have threshold monetary thresholds high enough to to capture those rare disease, drugs, and the business model of rare disease, drugs. And you know, given that, that cell therapies and gene therapies are the hottest and most promising and most exciting discoveries out there happening, those are rare disease, drugs, and they’re going to be more expensive. And if the quality quashed them, they would quash a lot of important cures.
Joe Selvaggi:
So to wrap up what would you say are the winners and losers when qualities used based on your observation, both here in the U S where we do not use them and around the world where they do, who are the winners?
Dr. Bill Smith:
Well, the number one loser is, is patients that there’s no doubt about that because nations that use qualities have poor access to the latest medications that get approved to there. There’s just no doubt about that. That’s demonstrated the winners in the use of qualities are probably the politicians who are trying to cut the healthcare budget, and they need to fig leaf that has the sound of being scientific. And the use of quality has this crazy scientific or around it. We’re, we’re crunching numbers. We’re economists, we’re, we’re putting data into the computer, and we’re going to come up with a number that values that drug, and that allows politicians to make cuts in healthcare services and access to therapeutics under the cover of scientific objectivity.
Joe Selvaggi:
But we’ll leave it there. Thank you very much for being on Hubwonk 360, Bill. Thank you, Joe.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. If you enjoyed today’s episode, there are several ways to support the show and pioneer Institute. It be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to a bunk on your iTunes pod catcher, if you’d like to make it easier for others to find how long it would be great, if you would offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share hub along with friends, if you have ideas or suggestions or comments for me about future episode topics, you’re welcome to email me at hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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Support Pioneer on Giving Tuesday
/in Featured, News /by Editorial StaffThis holiday season, we thank you for being a part of Pioneer’s community, following our accomplishments, and investing in our work. Through your support, we’re able to turn our dynamic ideas into a reality nationwide.
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Author Nicholas Basbanes on Henry Wadsworth Longfellow & the Spirit of American Poetry
/in Academic Standards, Featured, News, Podcast /by Editorial StaffThis week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Nicholas Basbanes, author of the 2020 literary biography, Cross of Snow: A Life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. He shares why poetry – from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Homer to Dante, Shakespeare, Longfellow, Emily Dickinson, and Langston Hughes – may well be the most influential, enduring form of written human expression. He then provides brief highlights of Longfellow’s life, and why he was often regarded as the most popular and recognizable “fireside poet” New England has ever produced. They discuss the tragic death of his second wife Frances Appleton in 1861, and his lasting importance as among our nation’s most celebrated poets, literary figures, and translators of Dante. They review Longfellow’s well-known poems, including “The Wreck of the Hesperus” and “Paul Revere’s Ride,” recited by countless generations of schoolchildren, and their wider cultural impact on interest in poetry in American schools. They also discuss Longfellow’s 1842 anti-slavery work, Poems on Slavery, and his close friendship with abolitionists such as U.S. Senator Charles Sumner; as well as other notable works such as “Evangeline,” and “The Jewish Cemetery at Newport,” that celebrate religious liberty and inclusiveness. Basbanes concludes with a reading from his Longfellow biography.
Stories of the Week: Many state education officials are seeking guidance from the U.S. Department of Education on how to meet the accountability requirements under the Every Student Succeeds Act after COVID-related testing disruptions. In Utah, student achievement on state assessments has declined across all grades, subject areas, and student groups in 2021 compared to 2019 (tests were not administered during 2020).
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The next episode will air on Wednesday, December 1st with guest, Matthew Chingos, who directs the Center on Education Data and Policy at the Urban Institute.
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How did the COVID-19 pandemic affect student performance? Utah data is ‘sobering and concerning’
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/11/18/22789484/how-did-the-covid-19-pandemic-affect-students-test-scores-utah-data-is-sobering-concerning-schools
States Look to Ed Department for Guidance on Restarting Testing and Accountability After Two Years of Pandemic-Related Interruptions
https://www.the74million.org/states-look-to-ed-department-for-guidance-on-restarting-testing-and-accountability-after-two-years-of-pandemic-related-interruptions/
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Cara: Dear listeners. Welcome to another episode of the learning curve with me, Cara Candal, and the fabulous Gerard Robinson, who I have to say, I recently got to see live in person, which is just absolutely amazing to see so many people live and in person, but especially you, my good friend, Gerard, how are you doing today?
[00:00:19] Gerard Robinson: Doing well. It was good to finally see you not on a screen and I barely see you. But it was good to break bread and talk shop. Yes. No, but I’m just
[00:00:29] Cara: like now, you know what I look like, because the last time we saw each other in person before this was years and years ago, so you know how the pandemic has aged me, but George don’t laugh.
[00:00:46] Listen, we’re coming up on Thanksgiving. Obviously. This is we’re recording this. We’re about to. Sit down. Our listeners may be, can listen to a little learning curve with their Turkey this week. I just picked up my Turkey and I was thinking of you on the way home, [00:01:00] because, knowing that , you’ve changed your diet very recently.
[00:01:03] I’m wondering like , what’s on the Robinson table this year. Is it a tofurkey or is it like something that would utterly offend my father’s sensibilities? I would have to say with that, I would probably eat what’s your specialty.
[00:01:14] GR: So for me, I’m going to have plant-based sausage. And so it would totally offend your father’s taste buds, my wife and the girls.
[00:01:24] So last year I made gumbo and this year I was going to make Kubia, which is a appealed fish dish, , and they all said, Nope, we want something that you’ve only made for us once in our life. And guess what? That is. Drum roll fry.
[00:01:41] Cara: Oh, I was going to say vegetarian sausage.
[00:01:45] GR: actually eat a Turkey and chicken stuff, but they’ve only had fried chicken at least made this house once. And so I’m going to make it for them along with some other goodies. So while that may be a normal meal in many households across America, [00:02:00] It is one that we don’t often have. they love chicken, but it’s often baked.
[00:02:03] So,
[00:02:05] Cara: you know, try to have to say, I rarely eat bread chicken, although it is delicious, absolutely scared to death of trying to prepare it. I’ve never eaten. I disclosed this to a friend the other day who we were, uh, looking at a menu, never had chicken. Just something that kind of, I know, it’s that weird.
[00:02:22] Like I made it all through college in the Midwest without a single chicken wing who knows how that happened, but it did. , so it’s interesting. Well, I’m glad to see that you can sort of like mix up the Thanksgiving table. I’m pretty excited. I’m going to be hosting a group of family, friends this year, nothing big at the Candal household.
[00:02:43] We , attempting to make a Turkey for said friends, my father, on the other hand, you know, speaking of offending his sensibilities, I should share with our listeners that this is a man who is so averse to a plant-based diet. for years and years, I’ve been asking him to please get on board, even just like, you know, you can still eat meat and be generally [00:03:00] plant-based the man.
[00:03:00] It’s just not, in his DNA. , but he is known for making a turducken Gerard. Have you ever had your duck and I’m assuming now? No. Yeah, the Turkey stuffed with like a duck stuff. Cause like, Wow. It’s an actual thing. It’s disgusting. Love you, dad. It’s disgusting. Like just, I don’t know, to all of our listeners out there, if you’ve ever had a good thing, a good term docket and let me know, but it is actually a thing.
[00:03:25] will not be, with my parents is Thanksgiving. We will be zooming, but I’m eager to know what’s going to be on the table there. So I know that so many of us this week are finding a little bit of time to. Relax, enjoy family in the middle of what is certain to be a very hectic season. So wishing everybody just a wonderful, relaxing holiday and hopefully this one better than last year when so many of us so saw.
[00:03:52] So few of us. but you know, we are here Gerard to. what’s going on in education this week now you, and I [00:04:00] think we can say that we were at the national summit on education hosted by selling the ed last week. It was, , I have to say, I give props to, as, our listeners know, Excel, net is my, is, uh, something that I do during the day, a job that I love very much.
[00:04:14] And I think it was just a really wonderful. Display of, thought leadership on so many levels. some really great speakers. and one of the things, one of the panels that we, one of the things we confronted them, one of our strategy sessions at the national summit , on education, was accountable.
[00:04:30] Was accountability and testing and what the heck is going on. And that relates to my story of the week, Gerard, which is from the 74 by Linda Jacobson. And the title is states. Look to ed department for guidance on restarting testing and accountability after two years. Of pandemic related interruptions.
[00:04:50] So we’ve talked about testing on this show. We’ve talked about accountability. We haven’t talked a whole heck of a lot about what’s going to happen now that most schools are reopen , and [00:05:00] most kids are back to some new version of normal and what this article is discussing. Is the fact that while most schools are testing and many did last year, too many schools and districts tested last year, we know that by and large, there’s just two years of lost test score data.
[00:05:16] And, in the department of education, the federal department of education, In the first year, obviously in 2020, some waivers from testing and accountability from ESSA, we’re the, every student succeeds act, which is the accountability system under which, states are accountable under, federal law.
[00:05:33] So meaning that’s how they get their title $1. But, , We know that states were granted waivers. Now this education department, secretary Cordona has, sent a pretty strong signal that tests are going to happen, and we’re not going to be granting a lot more waivers. So that leaves a question in everybody’s mind, we can get the test and we can get results of the test, but we don’t know how to hold schools and districts accountable for growth.
[00:05:58] If we don’t have, if we’re missing two years of [00:06:00] data, because we need to see what’s happening year over year. And as we also know to further complicate issues, Lots of kids are missing. So just a whole host of issues that states are facing right now. And not a lot of answers. States are really waiting to find out what is going to happen next.
[00:06:19] So, , we interesting to watch, , testing season is going to be honest before we know it. And certainly we need to get back to. And norm where, , accountability systems, that the thing that they do best is they shine a light on pockets of underperformance. So I’m really curious, right. As a former commissioner, as a former secretary of education, what kind of accountability system, , what kind of guidance would you like to see from the feds going forward on this
[00:06:45] GR: issue?
[00:06:46] I appreciate the fact that the fed for a couple of years, Said we’re going to hold harmless. I think that was the right decision. , I do understand why the secretary says, listen, we’ve got to do something and we have to do it kind of smartly [00:07:00] the benefit that he has today, that let’s say a decade ago. , we did not.
[00:07:05] Is, you have a number of think tanks, a number of nonprofit organizations and universities and research one schools, and also at HBC use who have professors who wake up and go to sleep every night, thinking about assessment. And if you troll the internet, you’ll see some of those professors aren’t waiting for peer review journals to give them the okay to publish their work.
[00:07:28] They’re actually putting out their ideas on how to address. For what tests could have been if all students were a test at the same time and they’ve come up with different economic, , social and academic based models for assessment. So I’m really, I really can’t weigh into this one because testing someone right now, And the pandemic is just radically different.
[00:07:51] But I would say, look to scholars at schools who are starting to put this out. So that’s part one, part two at the state [00:08:00] level, they have a lot automatic. one of the things you and I and chance to do while we were there were talked to people who are at the school level at the state level. And they were saying across the board, we have so much money.
[00:08:11] We don’t know what to do. And I can tell you in American education, that’s not usually sentence that you hear. It’s usually we don’t have enough. And then ever something else will follow. So with all of this money, there are people, again, you can invest in under the guise of COVID relief to make sure we stay in line with the parameters of the funding.
[00:08:32] There are people out there who’ve really, really thought about this. And I would say you have a number of retired teachers and principals, , who be equally interested. So I’d say use local.
[00:08:42] Cara: I love it. Also a great opportunity with this relief money to rethink assessment. I mean, it’s like one of the primary things that.
[00:08:50] school districts and school teachers and parents across the country love to hate as important as accountability systems are. But this is I think, a really grand opportunity to figure out [00:09:00] how do we get more innovative in our assessments? A close friend of mine likes to say fewer better assessments, right?
[00:09:06] So that we can still have those sort of summited data that as I say, help us understand what’s going on under the hood in school districts to make school, make sure that all children are being served without sort of. Having to continue to adhere to this testing regimen that causes anxiety. And quite frankly, sometimes perverse incentives for teachers to do things like teach to the test, which of course isn’t what we wanted in the first place.
[00:09:30] So I would be really excited to see if some of those local stakeholders that you mentioned can offer up ideas for not only how we hold schools accountable, but how we do so using. Different more innovative assessments designed for the future. So I know you’ve got a story this week. I think about a state Utah that is actually doing some really cool stuff in terms of, online learning, innovative assessments, all of the other things.
[00:09:56] What are you thinking about in that crazy?
[00:09:58] GR: Well, speaking of Utah, I had a [00:10:00] chance, , in addition to speaking to, , ESA leaders, , at the session you held, I also had an opportunity to moderate a panel focused on assessments, opportunity and personalized learning. And one of the three speakers was Dr.
[00:10:12] Carrie camp. who’s the director of K-12. Virtual learning for the Utah department of education. As many of you know, Julie Young has been a guest on our show. She was also my panel, but those two have partnered, uh, so that they can actually work to use technology as a way of trying to close the learning gap.
[00:10:32] And I should also say, we had, Denise forte, who is the interim CEO at education trust on the panel. So my story is all about. Data, but when you read what Margie Cortez had to say, she put in quotes, sobering and concerning. And that’s actually a phrase that was mentioned by representative Lowry, snow.
[00:10:52] Who’s a Republican from Santa Clara and co-chair of the Utah legislatures education interim committee. So [00:11:00] Utah is a high-performing state. They had a lot of great things, but they also have a number of socioeconomic challenges. Well, will you talk about the pandemic? It really impacted people across the board.
[00:11:11] Now, Utah was a state where a number of students were in person. And so the state said, let’s just assess exactly where we are and then figure out who took tests, who did not, and what happened? Well, when the representative said sobering and concerning, she was really clear. So for example, amongst high school juniors, 70% fewer.
[00:11:34] Took the sat college exam in 2021 compared to 2019. And if you look at the state average composite score declined, by 0.29, points, which is comparable to about one month of lost instruction. So then we talk about the Utah aspire plus tests, and this is administered to students in grades nine and 10.
[00:11:55] It had the sharpest decline in participation with 10% fewer. Students taking the [00:12:00] test in 2021 compared to 2029, but that’s not really the horrible, outcomes. Listen to this girl, mathematics performance dropped 46%, 10 and 37% in grade nine. English language arts performance worsened by 14% in both grades.
[00:12:19] And so in the state, they have something called rise assessments, and that’s short for readiness improvement, success, empowerment, and they’re administered to students in grades three to eight. They also unfortunately saw a sharp decline with 57. decline in sixth grade math and a 45% drop in fifth grade math.
[00:12:40] So the state is trying to figure out well, now that. This is the case. What do we do well to take things a step further, the Utah board of education and the national center for the improvement of educational assessment. They said, well, guess what folks it’s likely that the figures you’re discussing underestimates the true pandemic [00:13:00] effect, because it’s only based upon students who took the test in 20, 20, 20, 21.
[00:13:05] So when we’re speaking about how to look at learning loss, we have to find a new way of trying to assess it. So there is a professor at Harvard university named Andrew Holt, and he said, listen, let’s try to apply my method to the rise tests and to Utah. So according to hole, he suggested two metrics once you to include quote, a fair trend adjustment.
[00:13:32] And this is the account for changes in the testing population. And the second is an equity check and the goal here is an attempt to estimate. To the best way possible, a best case academic performance scenario for students who did not take the 2021 tests because he believes by doing so, you’re going to provide a gauge for the impact of missing students on the overall academic outcomes.
[00:13:57] And so, as the report goes, wherever the [00:14:00] story goes further, it just says that the state’s got to really think differently about how to do things. So there are three takeaways for me. Number one, holds assessment is one example that I remember. In response to you without mentioning his name of looking at university-based scholars who are trying to provide, One way of working with this number two, they also identify that even those students in Utah for the most part were in school more often than not a number of the students who filled out the survey identify that, , they sometimes were quarantine and had their education interrupted.
[00:14:35] And we dig further into the story. It said that the highest achievement occurred amongst students . Who were in-person but also had fewer interruptions, therefore being in place in school made a difference. The third is while no one is saying this in the article in Cortez definitely is not. I’m really wondering, are we trying to somehow say maybe we shouldn’t assess these students one more year [00:15:00] because things are still tight.
[00:15:02] I agree, but I want to make sure that at some point we don’t use the pandemic as a reason to maybe to go to your three, without holding some level of accountability and some level of, Assessment in place. So, you know, we’ll see, , last part is, you know, they did in by saying quote, the learning acceleration necessary cannot be left to teachers and principals alone, school leaders, educators, local communities will need support and resources to sustain a necessary intervention will be on the time of.
[00:15:32] And we’re actually funds run out a lot of money there. The smartest thing to do is just re-imagine what you would do, because I’m not sure we’re going to have so much money at one time point into schools. And so if we’re going to think about assessments and we’re looking at Utah, let’s just make sure that as we’re moving forward with this money, we’re not putting the pause too long.
[00:15:54] Accountability.
[00:15:56] Cara: couldn’t agree more Gerard and actually I think that there is an [00:16:00] enormous risk. I think that there are some vested interests that would like to see a commonality go away all together. Let’s just swing that pendulum right back to like the late 1970s early 1980s would failed and failed attempt at accountability until.
[00:16:13] Wasn’t really until 2001 on the heels of some states like Texas and Massachusetts and others implementing these systems. Right. It wasn’t until no child left behind that, we really had information about schools. And I think that’s the huge danger here. We might also have to rethink the different ways of holding schools accountable, because absolutely we want to know about student performance, but, , in this particular.
[00:16:37] If schools aren’t even trying, if they aren’t even trying to understand or to share their data or to demonstrate that they’re doing something for kids. And I think we all need to be a little bit skeptical about what’s going on and figure out how to hold schools accountable in myriad ways, both quantitative and qualitative, , without of course Focusing so much on accountability that we pose additional burdens.
[00:16:59] [00:17:00] we want to do it in a way that lifts burdens per students and teachers where tests and accountability can become a tool for future learning. So, well, I know we could talk about this forever Gerard, because it’s fascinating and it’s going to be, it’s going to be just. Turkey day conversation.
[00:17:14] It’s so many homes. I know that’s, everybody’s going to have accountability on the mind. , Gerard, we have got a very new England guests coming up after this. if any of you are, I know even those of you who live in warmer climates often, , what’s the song I’m dreaming of a white Christmas.
[00:17:31] If you listen to this kind of music around the holiday season. So for those of us up here in new England, it’s. It’s dark and we’re going to be, , huddled around, the Thanksgiving table, looking for some warmth and today’s author he’s written about, for example, Henry Wadsworth, Longfellow, great new England poet.
[00:17:48] Many of us know his work without knowing we even know his work. We’re going to be speaking with Nicholas Basbanes coming up right now.[00:18:00]
[00:18:21] Learning curve listeners. Welcome back. And today we are with Nicholas Basbanes. He’s the author of 10 critically acclaimed works of cultural history with a particular emphasis on various aspects of books and book culture. I just love it. A gentle madness, bibliophiles biblio mains in the eternal passionate.
[00:18:40] His first book was a finalist for the national book critics circle award for non-fiction in 1995 and was a New York times notable. On paper, the everything of its 2000 year history was one of three finalists for the Andrew Carnegie metal for excellence in non-fiction and was named best book of the year by seven major publications.
[00:18:59] , in [00:19:00] 2016, he was awarded a public scholar research fellowship by the national endowment for the humanities. His second NEH grant for work on cross of snow. A life of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow published in 2020 as Kristoff erasure wrote in the wall street journal review. Inspired superbly. Longfellow is the perfect poet for our current moment.
[00:19:21] Basbanes writes about him with generosity, gentleness and grace, Nicholas. Basbanes welcome to the show.
[00:19:28] Nicholas: Thank you for that wonderful introduction.
[00:19:30] Cara: Yeah, we’re really happy to have you. I think, especially, I mean, I sit up here in new England. My co-host is not, he gets to talk about his home state of Virginia quite a bit, but Longfellow especially feels very new England and inappropriate for this.
[00:19:44] Cultural moment, but this time of year, so we’re really excited to have you now. I don’t know if I can call myself a bibliophile, but boy, do I love to read? And the history of books is a fascinating topic. You’ve written several books about the history of books, [00:20:00] so share for our listeners. and the educators and students that we have, who listen to this show from the epic of Gilgamesh and Homer to Dante Shakespeare, Longfellow, Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes poetry might be the most influential.
[00:20:17] Enduring form of written human expression. Explain that what’s
[00:20:20] Nicholas: well, I, think you hit the nail on the head there, when you talk about influential and enduring, I think, you know, enduring would begin with that. You mentioned Gilgamesh, the Sumerian epic. Well, that, that is a, an oral originally and an oral tradition.
[00:20:36] An epic poem, which we call an epic poem and was composed 5,000 years ago, which is at the Dawn of, writing. , it was an existence about 2000 BC and we have our first recorded. writing of it and which have been preserved on baked clay tablets from the Sumerian era dating to 1000 BC.
[00:20:56] , that was written over a thousand years before Homer wrote the [00:21:00] Iliad and the Odyssey, which again, they’re all. Poems designed to be read aloud or to be sung as songs and then re and then recorded down, documented, on a variety of a recording surfaces. We use paper today, but we’ve used all sorts of recording, and and we talk about holler , , and the Odyssey and the Iliad. We have the, uh, the indeed by virtual the opening line. As I sing, I sing to you of arms and the man that when you think of any number of. National epics. I mean, you talk about, mentioned Virgil’s at need. You have Dante and writing in the vernacular in the 14th century, the divine comedy, you know, the song of Roland, the song of Roland, again, very important 11th century France, the poem of the Cid in Spain.
[00:21:42] So when you think of national poems that celebrate a national identity, it is invariably through poetry and beginning going back, as we said, thousands of. And the oral tradition. And let’s just, just think who was the national poet of England? Well, he’s the Dramatists, the playwright, [00:22:00] William Shakespeare, but fundamentally he was a poet writing, a blank verse.
[00:22:05] I ethic pentameter, all of his great speeches and all of the great plays are inverse. And of course we call them the great Bard of Avon. So this is the tradition from which Henry. Longfellow Springs. he was determined to write a great American, epic, drawing on distinctively, uniquely American traditions and customs.
[00:22:27] And he attempted this. And I think he succeeded in a number of instances, beginning with Evangelina and, the first, of his long narrative poems and He follows that with, , Hiawatha , and he follows that with. the courtship of miles Standish, each one of these, a distinctively American theme drawing in American traditions and speaking to the American people of, of their shared cultural identity.
[00:22:51] So I guess that’s a long roundabout way of answering your question, but answer it in the.
[00:22:57] Cara: Yeah, no, but, and you’re also bringing me back to [00:23:00] my, I don’t want to say how long ago, but days of course, as an English major in some of these works that you’ve listed as being, you know, songs. , certainly, really, if you’ve ever sat with the.
[00:23:11] And you’ve sat with the texts, especially in a group of other people, you realize that they of course lend themselves to being read aloud and one can understand and feel so much more of it. I also listening to you. And since we do have some educators who are out there in our audience, I want to put in a plug for something that my kids wonderful school does.
[00:23:29] And that is poem in your pocket day. And the ground rules are simply that you have to have a poem in your pocket and anybody can stop you at any time. You to read that poem. So going back to that great oral tradition. Now I’ve already asked you a little bit about Longfellow, but we want to talk a lot more about him.
[00:23:46] so your biography of Longfellow is considered definitive. and I think that many would say he is regarded as perhaps America’s most recognizable fireside poet, of course, from new England. Talk to us [00:24:00] a little bit about Longfellow. Life. he had the tragic death of his second wife. And, what is it that made him such a celebrated literary figure in our.
[00:24:11] Nicholas: Well, I think he is. Yes, he is. He was easily the most celebrated. That’s a good, that’s a very important word. Do you celebrated poet of the 19th century? He was more than a poet. He was a public figure. And I think in that regard, he goes, he transcends poetry. He was read, he was appreciated. He was beloved by every demographic and by people of all ages.
[00:24:34] Children. He wrote most accessibly and invitingly. But when you think of, people of lawyers, professionals, uh, president Lincoln, going into the 1860s was brought to tears. When he was read, the building of the ship and that wonderful line in there saying sail on or union strong and great. You know, we talk about president Lincoln.
[00:24:55] We talk about it in England, queen Victoria. So Longfellow was [00:25:00] an American poet, but beloved not only in the United States as a cultural figure, but throughout the world, his poems were translated and read and no fewer than 30 languages, throughout the world. When he visited England in 1868, he was received by queen Victoria, who might.
[00:25:17] And how the servants, the domestic staff and the Windsor castle were hiding behind curtains to get a vantage point, to see the great American poet. And she asked them later, how do you know this poet? Well, they all knew his poetry and they all loved his poetry. , and that had a lot to do with his.
[00:25:35] who he was, he was a man of extraordinary decency. he was a very moral person. He was born in 1807. He graduated from Boden college in Maine at the age of 18. He graduated at the age of 18. He was a. Uh, class at one of his classmates and B and later in life, one of his great, great friends was Nathaniel Hawthorne.
[00:25:56] That was quite a class credit graduating class at Bowman. And there were other [00:26:00] great achievers on his graduation day. Uh, prior to graduation day, he gave an address because he graduated with honors and the topic of his address was, are native writers. Even at the age of 18, he was calling for the creation and the development and the evolution of a distinctively American literature.
[00:26:22] We were still in the early years of the 19th century, you know, when America was still in the very earlier in the infancy of developing and national literary tradition and he was mindful of. And he wanted from these earliest days, from the earliest stages that we have records of him. He wanted to be a writer and a professional writer, and he didn’t, he came from a very distinguished fan.
[00:26:44] but he was not from a family of great wealth and his father who was a lawyer in Portland, Maine, you know, insisted you can’t make a living doing this. He wanted him to be like himself, a lawyer, a young Henry. , I didn’t argue with them because, but he respected his father, but , they reached a consensus.
[00:26:59] [00:27:00] Well, you’ll come study in the, in, in my lawyer office. And meanwhile, maybe you can , take some graduate studies at Harvard and you can study literature. Commencement date on the graduation date and he’s 18 years old. The trustees, , at Bowdoin college vote to establish a professor. And modern European languages and bell let, there were only three other colleges in the United States at that time that had such a program, Harvard, William, and Mary, and the university of Virginia.
[00:27:28] They had received a bequest and lo and behold, they recommended that young Henry Longfellow age 18, a B. Be appointed to that position. He had already distinguished himself and translating, , some odes , , from the Latin, , Horace in particular. , and he had impressed everyone , , and they thought he would be perfect for the job, but there was a catch.
[00:27:49] He would have to go to Europe. He’s 18 years old, 1825 at his own expense. And to learn the languages, he would be expected to take. And because he was a very [00:28:00] decent, moral, trustworthy young man. I mean, consider sending your child abroad at the age of 18 and 1825 and spending what turned out to be three and a half years in Europe, traveling through multiple countries, spending time in Spain and Italy and Germany and England and France and everywhere he goes.
[00:28:19] He not only learns these language. And so he can come back and teach them and he will learn six. He will learn six fluently this time around and he will do this again. 10 years later, before he takes over a similar position at Harvard, he ultimately will know 12 languages read them fluently. And his library at Longfellow was in Cambridge.
[00:28:41] So there are over 10,000 books in 45 different dialects in a dozen or so languages, all of which he could read fluently and speak fluently. , , he came back. , he taught these languages, , , at Boden for a seven, years or so. He’s began to introduce to American readers. This is important [00:29:00] because not only did he want to develop an American literary tradition, he was determined to adapt.
[00:29:06] Borrow not to, I don’t, I don’t mean borrow in the sense of plagiarize or poach material, but traditions forms of, , , a poetic form and meter. And he learned them and he, would absorb these and he was determined to absorb all of these different traditions. He hoped to create one that would be distinctively American.
[00:29:25] And I think to a great extent, he succeeded at that, but at the same time, and we can argue, and I do in the book that he is arguably, I think our first, , long before that this phrase enters the language, uh, multiculturalist, because he believes he wrote to his sisters from Europe. He said the moral language is a man who.
[00:29:45] Of course you could say, man or woman, the more languages a person knows the more he or she as a man or a woman. , the more languages that you learn, , the more you are a human being and not only languages, but literature is what he meant. [00:30:00] Washington Irving and Spain, Washington Irvin gave him great advice.
[00:30:04] Young men don’t just learn the languages, but learn the literature. So this, I think this trip to Europe at the age of 18, he comes back at the age of 22. He’s a full professor at Boden college and he so distinguishes himself. , he is credited with introducing to American readers, , the works of no fewer than 25 German authors, including Guetta and Schiller.
[00:30:26] He, is credited with introducing so many different Spanish writers and traditions to American readers. There were no textbooks available while he was at Boden in the seven years, he taught them. He translated his own, his own books. The very first books he publishes are his own translations from these various languages as premise.
[00:30:45] So he can pass among his students. And then you can still find them in antiquarian circles. I mean, they’re very important books. So this is how he begins to go back when he arrived in the Bowden campus. And he started that he was a freshmen at the age of 15 or [00:31:00] 14 or so he was already a published poet, even though his father discouraged.
[00:31:05] From being a writer, he wrote poetry. He submitted these poems to various newspapers. And at the age of 13, his first poem was published in the Portland newspaper. So we start with this young man, he then, and then after seven or eight, Lo and behold, he w he’s eager to leave. He loves me and he’s from Maine, but he feels after having traveled and visited all these world capitals, he wants to perform on a larger stage.
[00:31:31] And, , he got out of the woodwork quite literally. He is offered a similar position at Harvard to succeed the great George techno and the Smith professorship. And now he is required to go to. Again, and to learn more languages quite specifically, to become more proficient than the Germany and the. He travels.
[00:31:50] And he takes with him, his young wife, , his first wife, Mary store, a Potter, a long fellow, a young, lovely woman, a neighbor of his and [00:32:00] Maine and tragically. She dies. And we really, because they are very reticent people, we know very little about her pregnancy, whether even she was pregnant when they set sail, but six months after they arrived in Europe, she had a miscarriage and she died.
[00:32:15] Horribly, , 54 or so days later, and Henry was totally distraught and he sold it on. He continued his work, , hoping to try to make a long story short here, but he’s traveling to take a break before returning to teach at Harvard. He meets this young woman. And, , in Switzerland, Francis Appleton, Longfellow traveling with her family.
[00:32:36] She’s a beacon hill, a young woman, , from a very, very prominent, , a wealthy, new England family and Henry falls for her , in the biggest way, uh, because she is a brilliant young woman. I mean, , she, herself has been tough. Bye magnificent private tutors. She speaks multiple languages.
[00:32:54] She translates as well with him, some poem from the German, and we couldn’t be more [00:33:00] impressed. There’s a courtship. Well, we call it a courtship. It was only one way. It took seven years for these two to get together. , I spent a good bill, did a bit of time. , I’m very proud of the fact that we won’t probably get to the, to this and the time we are talking here, but I regard this as much a, biography of Fanny Appleton, Longfellow as much as it is of Henry and that we don’t, we won’t have time also to get deeply into the choice of the title cross of snow.
[00:33:27] But this is a tribute. He writes to her 18 years after her horrible death. After 18 years of marriage. , in which, which also coincide with the 18, most productive years of his life, it was, it w it was 18 years of extraordinary product. They, I I’ve just written finished, , an essay, which I hope to be published in a major literary journal.
[00:33:51] I expect it will be, but I call it meeting of the minds, the intellectual partnership, if Henry was with Longfellow and [00:34:00] Francis Appleton Longfellow, because she was, I won’t say she was his collaborator, but she read everything. That he wrote, she commented on it. She advised him in several instances.
[00:34:11] She even proposed poems that he wrote one of which, the arsenal of Springfield. She was quite the Abbott. She was a abolitionist. she was , fiercely against arms and warfare of, , any form. And, uh, and all of these, all of these factors had a great impact on Henry. She died tragically and in a, horrible way, their life.
[00:34:33] I have a chapter in the book. I called chem a lot on the Charles. I mean, life couldn’t have been any better than he is at the top of his game. Uh, oh, the three narrative poems. I mentioned they’re all written and published during this period. So many other of his most famous works, Paul Revere’s right.
[00:34:47] The building of the ship, these all, these are all written and published during the year, these years. In July of 1861, just a few months after the outbreak of the civil war, they have now five children, three [00:35:00] daughters, , two sons, and on a hot July day , this was a custom and these days she is sealing, sealing.
[00:35:09] A little snippets of golden here from one of her daughters, her daughter, Edith Edith with golden hair. And she is attempting to seal , these locks of, , , , blonde hair, into small envelopes with a candle. And somehow because only the girls were witnessed to this, the young. Uh, some, some dripping wax fell on her dress.
[00:35:29] This crinoline dress, these dresses, which were terribly flammable in an instant, she burst into flames. I ran a shrieking to the study and long thoughts were Henry was taking an afternoon nap. Try and furiously to put out the flames. All he had was a little throw rug. He’s severely burned, and , she just very tragically, , passes away the next morning.
[00:35:53] And in an instant you talk about a night Delek life being turned upside down. Uh, This was [00:36:00] now the second loss , of a woman that he loved dearly. He loved his first wife dearly. And now this woman with his bride of 18, when he married Fanny, he wrote in his journal, it was a Vita Nova, a new life of happiness.
[00:36:15] And now all of a sudden that was good. But he never, lost his faith or his courage or , what he had to do. He was now a single father with a young five young children. He wrote to a very close friend. He said to the, out to the world, outside outwardly, I am kind of. But inwardly, I am bleeding to death.
[00:36:34] And so now he turns to other things for the short run, he turns to translation returns to translation because , he’s translated many other works and it becomes the first American to translate the whole of Dante into English. And if he did nothing else, if he didn’t ever write a single poem of his own, his significance as a literary.
[00:36:57] For that alone, , would elevate him [00:37:00] to us to a statute where we would have to pay attention to him. I interviewed a number of people for this book, and I can’t tell you, including Harold bloom, the great Harold bloom, the late Harold bloom, , Dean of American critics who felt that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow’s translation of Dante and his view was the best because of his accuracy and his fidelity to what Dante was trying to say.
[00:37:23] To his readers, not just what the translator thought his readers were trying to, pass on to the, to the readers. Henry lives for another 22 or 23 is after the death of Fanny, but those years are so central. And on the 18th anniversary of her death, they were married for 18 years.
[00:37:41] And numbers were very important to him one night and his, and the sadness in his bedroom. He writes out this sonnet, the cross of snow from which I derive there, the title of my book, and it’s attributed to his wife. And it’s a, classic sonnet of 14 lines. And he’s contemplating [00:38:00] two paintings, one that hangs in the second floor bedroom of his well.
[00:38:05] It’s across from his bed and only he sees this painting. I mean, it’s a very personal, private part, a painting. That’s the first eight lines of the poem and the final six lines as, a contemplation of a painting known to millions of people, re of the recently discovered mountain in the Colorado Rockies, which somehow displays on its side.
[00:38:25] the figure of a cross and snow, and it’s visible all year round and they’re caused a sensation. So it was this contemplation of these two pictures and what he says in the long sleepless watches of the night, a gentle face, the face of one long dead looks at me from the wall, went round its head, the night lamp casts, a halo of pale light here in this room.
[00:38:45] She died. It never sold more white, never threw monitor demo for. What has led to which repose or Ken and books be read the legend of a life more better day. He switches to the mountain and the distant west. He said there is a mountain in the distant [00:39:00] west that sun defying and its deep ravines displays across the snow upon its side.
[00:39:06] Such as the cross I, where upon my breasts, these 18 years through all the changing scenes and seasons changeless, that’s the day she died. It’s just an amazing poem. When he finished it was so personal. He folded it, put it in an envelope, left it with his personal papers. It was discovered after his death and published posthumously.
[00:39:27] And I thought, not only is this an extraordinary exceptional. To this woman who is such a partner to him, but also one of the finest songs ever written by an American. And I say this, , just, I really challenge anyone to tell me, , an American poet who writes a better sonnet that Henry was with Longfellow.
[00:39:47] he is an absolute master of the sonnet form. Well, speaking
[00:39:51] GR: of Paul’s. My co-host Kara mentioned that she lives in the Boston area. I’ve had a chance to visit and on one visit, I had an opportunity to see [00:40:00] the black soldiers monument in the city. And it was just amazing to think about what, , mainly those.
[00:40:07] formerly enslaved Africans with some of those free man decided to do, to fight against the civil war. And speaking of that in 1842, Longfellow wrote poems on slavery, uh, call them attention to the institution amongst his closest friends was the abolitionists us Senator of Massachusetts Charles summer, who many would know in 1856 was nearly beaten to death on the floor of the Senate because of.
[00:40:32] Anti-slavery speech. Would you talk to us about what teachers, students, even families should know about? Longfellow’s poems on slavery? , his literary, connection with Senator Sumner and his friendship with new England abolitionists
[00:40:48] Nicholas: and. Okay. That’s a great question. And I think I’m really pleased that you asked it because I’ve been asked before by some people why, how can I explain Longfellow’s and this [00:41:00] was an actual question is with, on the matter of slavery, because some people feel that he could have been more, more.
[00:41:08] We’re active in this and the poetry that he wrote in his career, , like Whittier, for instance, more fiery. Well, those poems that you just mentioned, the poems on slavery, seven poems were published in 1842. Now this is 10 years before 10 years before Harriet Beecher stows, uncle Tom’s cabin. And he wrote, about slavery as a horrific institution.
[00:41:29] And there was seven great one called a slave. Dismal swamp in which he hunted me row. That was the words that he used on the run and Ferman lane from repeated beatings lies, crunched in the rank and tangle grass, like a wild. And the layer, he writes another one called the slaves dream and the central image, there is the drivers whip that maintains Otter among the oppressed.
[00:41:52] Another one, he calls the quadroon girl about a young woman who’s taken from her family and brought to, the United States for any number of [00:42:00] different, unspeakable purposes. And my, very favorite of them all as the witnesses. Which describes a sunken ship, half buried in the sands in which lies, skeletons and chains with shackled feet and hands.
[00:42:14] These are the bones of slaves. He writes, they gleaned from the abyss. They cry from the yawning waves. We other witnesses. Now, some people might’ve felt that those weren’t powerful pumps. I think they’re pretty powerful poems and they used imagery and they were powerful enough that one of his publishers refuse to include them in a collection of his works.
[00:42:33] He did stimulate discussion and he was the first American poet to do that. The first American writer of consequence to do that, w they were so, far-reaching and influential that, Whittier his friend and other fireside. Asks him to run for Congress and the Liberty and the under the banner of the Liberty party, which is newly formed, but it was a very, very clear abolitionist party, Longfellow declines.
[00:42:59] [00:43:00] He says, I do not fly under any political banner, his feelings, his convictions were very well-known. Now you ask about Charles Sumner, literary connector it’s beyond literary connection. There was his closest dearest. They were absolutely soulmates. And when, when and Sumner knew Fanny Appleton, they both lived in beacon hill.
[00:43:21] And so he knew the family, but, and as much as he loved her and became very friendly and was as devoted to her as Henry, was he despaired when Henry, when they married, because he was losing, , not losing, he thought he might be losing his closest friend, but Sumner said something to writing a letter to Francis.
[00:43:39] Labor said, do not expect war owes from Longfellow. That is not what Longfellow does. He said, Longfellow speaks to the people on common ground and he speaks for all of them and, and, and all of their convictions, you know, later he writes, , Paul Revere’s ride well, purportedly that. The revolutionary war, [00:44:00] but it’s more than that.
[00:44:00] This is published on the Eve of this, literally on the Eve of the civil war. South Carolina has just has to see seated , from the union and the final six lines of that poem. He says for a born on the night, wind up the past to all our history, to the last, in the hour of darkness and peril in need, the people will waken.
[00:44:20] We’ll wait. Future
[00:44:22] GR: tense and listen, to
[00:44:24] Nicholas: hear the hurrying of beats out of that steep and the midnight message of Paul Revere. He’s talking about preserving the union and the preservation of the union is so important to him and part and parcel of that. Of course. Is there a connection. That people, , human beings are not chattel.
[00:44:41] They are not property. And I just find that, , those poems on slavery, I really underappreciated and undervalued for what they did and for what they performed. And I’m delighted that you asked that question. You mentioned the psycho down a relief up on beacon hill. That’s the 54th Massachusetts regiment.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] You know, only in Boston, I think that you have had something like this happen, where you have , these free blacks, , being encouraged to sign up and to serve. And they March off on beacon hill, Henry was there. He was at his father-in-law’s house and he watched the press. He watched the procession, he cheered them as they marched off to their here.
[00:45:20] , Phaeton and proven to everyone that, , , black people not only could fight, but they could fight honorably and decisively and with great credit. And it was an, extraordinary situation and Henry was fully in support of that, but Sumner was very, very, very important individual in his life.
[00:45:38] And also of course, as we know in the abolition, cause
[00:45:42] GR: not only did Longfellow write about slavery and his child. He also wrote poems that helped people then and now think about religious Liberty, whether it was, events, Dylan, about a Catholic Acadian girl in her search for a lost love. , during the time of the expulsion of the [00:46:00] Acadians to Louisiana fact, my family’s from Louisiana or his 1854 log the Jewish cemetery at Newport.
[00:46:09] Same similar theme, you know, what should we, as educators and students, as families is just people think about these poems and the broader ideas of America and religious.
[00:46:21] Nicholas: Well, thanks. about, what you just asked me, both of these questions. Again, both of these poems deal with Paul American situations.
[00:46:29] Evangelina is this, and this is the first of the three long narrative poems. But think about it. It’s about a Catholic woman, a woman who is now the heroine of an epic poem. This is almost unprecedented, isn’t it? And, and we’re talking about Catholics and, and, and British. What was, you know, at the time.
[00:46:49] Expulsion of the Acadians, you know, British north America. , and of course at the, premise of the story, is that on their wedding? This couple , is separated. He has sent off and [00:47:00] she spends the rest of her life searching for him. Henry heard about that by the way, from his friend, Nathaniel Hawthorne at dinner, and the author gave him the idea for that story and he ran with it.
[00:47:10] And, , we had this magnificent Pullman Longfellow did do with, by the way, in a very interesting meter, a meter of, , dactylic, examiners, which was, the meter , of the class. , the epic poems, the Greek poems, because he wanted to kind of have an impact. It’s this classical epic theme, but this is, this was a poem, a celebration of religious freedom, but also gender.
[00:47:33] , we’re talking about a woman who was, who triumphs in the end, and she’s a very, she never loses her faith or our hope. The Jewish cemetery at Newport is also a very interesting poem. , Discovered this cemetery and Newport Rhode Island in 1850, when he was in Newport with his family for the summer.
[00:47:51] And he went out for a walk and he records this in his diary and he comes across. If it’s still there, if you ever have a chance to get down to Newport this, uh, this Jewish [00:48:00] cemetery, which is established in 1657, I think it was just, uh, not the cemetery, but the synagogue, which remains the oldest standing synagogue.
[00:48:09] And north America. So this, this group of, of a Portuguese Sephardic Jews came to Rhode Island in 1650s, fleeing religious oppression and Europe. And they were welcome in Rhode Island because we’re an island, as you know, was founded by Roger Williams as a Haven, as a place for people of all faiths to assemble and to live.
[00:48:32] And Henry is walking and he sees. Walking down and, uh, and downtown Newport. And he sees this cemetery behind locked gates. By this time, by the way, the Jewish settlement , has scattered. They’re no longer in Newport. This is a consequence of the American revolution. , Newport was a thriving Seaport and after revolution, it wasn’t.
[00:48:50] And so the very, the Jewish merchants , and families went to other cities. So the Jewish community was no longer there, but the synagogue was still there and it is now [00:49:00] active again. But there was this grave rat and he sees. And he sees these inscriptions and he was locked in. There’s a caretaker and the caretaker takes him in and he tells him about some of the names and the descriptions, of course, being a very, um, very knowledgeable, so many different languages and dialects, Henry Henry tells the story of, of these wandering Jewish tribes.
[00:49:22] , and of course there was so much antisemitism, but you won’t find any of that in his poem. It’s exceedingly simple. He writes, with great sensitivity , about the migration of, , not only the Jewish people, but all sorts of, , people that were with, , various faiths and convictions, , escaping and finding Haven, , a Haven in the new world and particularly here.
[00:49:42] So it’s a remarkable poem and a remarkable, very, very, very remarkably sensitive poem. And it written again by ever remarkable sensitive man.
[00:49:56] GR: Well, what else we’d love for you to do is just to read a passage of your choice. [00:50:00]
[00:50:01] Nicholas: Okay. Well, I’ve chosen a little segment, which I think is really appropriate for the season that we’re in.
[00:50:10] It doesn’t really need much of a backstory. It just that it is 1863. it’s during the civil war two weeks after two years after the death of his wife. , and he’s taken care of his children. In the meantime, his oldest son, Charlie has run away and joined the union army and he’s in Virginia, but Henry has also turned off to, to, , doing the tales of a wayside in and his Dante.
[00:50:36] Here we go. 15,000 copies, Henry wrote in his notebook for November 25th, 1863. Marking with those three words, the publication of tales of a wayside in adding that the publishers had dined with him that night to celebrate joining Henry the next day for Thanksgiving dinner with Tom Appleton and Harriet Appleton, who son [00:51:00] Nathan Appleton, Jr.
[00:51:01] Jr. Like Charlie was a junior officer serving on the front line. We drank the health of all the lieutenants in the army of the Potomac Henry road. Charlie having recently returned to duty after a suffering about of camp fever, a term used for a variety of contagious illnesses and demic to the close quarter, military encampments of the period, most severely typhoid fever, which took the lives of more soldiers during the civil war than injuries inflicted.
[00:51:30] Charlotte had fallen grievously ill with one of these elements, not long after receiving his commission word, reaching Henry and Portland on June 11th, where he was visiting with his sister and setting off immediately for Washington. He arrived within a day of hearing the news. Charlie was assigned to a bed and the home of a Unitarian minister.
[00:51:49] Taking a hotel room for himself and me spent the next few weeks by Charlie’s bedside visiting occasionally with Sumner and host of government officials eager to meet him [00:52:00] yesterday. Sunday, I heard the distant Cantonese. Mingling in with the sound of the church bells and the chanting of the choir and the church close by.
[00:52:10] He wrote on June 22nd, a paradox. He would recall six months later when inspired to write Christmas bells adapted many times in the years ahead to say Yuletide tide song most famously by Johnny Marks in 1956. As I heard the bells on Christmas day and recorded that year by Bing Crosby, the opening stands on the song is the same as in Henry’s poem.
[00:52:33] I heard the bells on Christmas day. They’re old familiar carols play and wild and sweet. The words. Repeat of peace on earth. Goodwill to men to stands is typically left out of the Carol speak directly to the horrors of the civil. Then from each black, , Chris at both the cannon thundered in the south and with the sound that Carol’s drowned of peace on earth, Goodwill to men, [00:53:00] it was as if an earthquake rent the Hearthstones of a continent and made for Lauren the households born of peace on earth, Goodwill to men picking up at the next stanza, the song and the poem conclude with hope.
[00:53:15] And in despair, right? Bowed my head. There is no peace on earth. I said for hate is strong and mocks the song of peace on earth, Goodwill to men, then peel the bells more loud and deep. God is not dead nor Duffy sleep that wrong shall fail the right prevail with peace on earth, Goodwill to men. Thank you.
[00:53:40] , I love that poem , and like so many other poems that he wrote, it resonates to this day. You know, when you think of the building of the ship, which is from the 1840s. And he writes that that verse of sail on are union strong and great brings Abraham Lincoln to tears. Franklin Roosevelt is so [00:54:00] moved during world war II, who the darker steps of world war II.
[00:54:02] He writes it out from memory at longhand and sends it to Winston Churchill who reads it before the house of commons prior to the battle of Britain. And you just, so people say, does Longfellow not resonated. Oh, it’s the power of the poet in the 20th century and the 21st century. I don’t think so, but, , that’s just one person’s opinion.
[00:54:41] Cara: And before we leave you all listeners, of course, we have to leave you with a tweet of the week. It is a new report alert. Our friend Patrick Wolf was tweeting about this, which is how it came to our attention. The quote is study of public school funding and spending for fiscal year [00:55:00] 2018 and 19 is out average per pupil.
[00:55:03] Funding continued its steady increase to $14,347 per pupil. Funding is still significantly lower for charter schools than district run schools. And that is a national center for education statistics report, not shocking, , $14,347. Now I know we are in a moment of inflation. But that sounds like pretty big leap from where we were even just 10 years ago.
[00:55:28] And let’s not forget folks that those numbers are way higher in a lot of school districts across the state. And of course they’re lower in some as well. So, those inequities run deep, especially when it comes to charters. Which often suffer from, for example, a lack of facilities funding. we should really be thinking about adjusting for greater equity in our funding, formulas folks.
[00:55:50] Just another thought to leave you with at the Thanksgiving table and Gerard, as you know, next week, we are going to be joined by Matt Chingos of the UrbanInstitute. [00:56:00] Gerard, I hope that you are vegan. Sausage is absolutely delicious. And if you will, my friend, please send a photo of that Friday. I definitely will.
[00:56:09] All right, everybody, listen, I wish you and yours all the best hope you have a wonderful long weekend and eat at least lots of like vegan apple pie. I hope.
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