Surtax mainly impacts households and businesses whose income exceeds $1 million due to one-time business events, sales of long-held property and retirement
BOSTON – Analyses from the Massachusetts Department of Revenue (MADOR, 2016) and Tufts University’s Center for State Policy Analysis (2022) dramatically underestimated the number of households and businesses impacted by the constitutionally-imposed tax hike that the legislature is putting before voters in November 2022, according to a new study from Pioneer Institute.
A question scheduled to appear on the Massachusetts ballot next November would amend the state constitution and place a four-percent surtax on households and thousands of Massachusetts businesses that in any one year have income exceeding $1 million. In studying the effect of the proposed tax, MADOR found that 19,565 households and businesses would be impacted in the single year the tax took effect. The Tufts’ analysis estimates 26,000 would be affected in 2023.
MADOR and Tufts’ analyses focus on the impact in a single year and are therefore premised on a fundamental misunderstanding of the households and businesses affected by the tax. Those affected by the tax are primarily retirees and small businesses who have a one-time taxable event, often the sale of an asset—a home that will serve as a retirement nest-egg, a business location or subsidiary, a patent, or similar. The great majority are not “millionaires.”
A new Pioneer Institute study finds that the proposed tax would impact multiples of that amount over a nine-year period, since the majority of “millionaires” only earn $1 million once during that time.
“More than three times the number of unique individual Massachusetts taxpayers—mainly retirees and individuals who have a business pass-through—would be affected by the proposed surtax over nine years than found in these estimates,” said Greg Sullivan, author of “The Great Understatement: Far more taxpayers and businesses than previously estimated will be affected by the proposed surtax.” “The longitudinal data makes clear that a one-year analysis gives short shrift to the number of businesses and households who will be affected by this tax proposal.”
According to a 2010 Tax Foundation report, more than half the U.S. taxpayers who reported gross annual incomes of $1 million or more in any year from 1999 to 2007 did so only once during the period. Only 5.6 percent reported million-dollar incomes in each of the nine years and less than 20 percent earned $1 million or more in four or more of the years.
If the same persistence rate is applied to Massachusetts, the surtax would affect 64,843 state taxpayers – not 19,565 – over nine years. Of those, 32,470 would earn over $1 million just once in nine years. Only 3,650 would be expected to have income over $1 million each year during that period.
Because the tax proposal affects capital gains, it could sweep into thousands of retirees selling longtime homes and long-held assets.
The surtax would also impact Massachusetts businesses, since “pass throughs” such as sole proprietorships, partnerships, limited liability and S corporations are taxed via individual returns. Based on 2018 IRS data, there are over 13,000 Massachusetts businesses that had adjusted gross incomes of $1 million or more. It is not unreasonable to expect a similar multiplier effect for the number of businesses affected, but the precise impact will require more data from MADOR.
“Proponents like to call this a “millionaires tax” but at best 1 in 5 of the people affected are millionaires,” said Pioneer Executive Director Jim Stergios. “The great majority are retirees and small businesses, who aren’t millionaires hiding away in a mythical castle with a moat around it. That’s what proponents want you to believe – but the facts on this are very clear.”
About the Author
Gregory Sullivan is Pioneer’s Research Director. Prior to joining Pioneer, Sullivan served two five-year terms as Inspector General of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and was a 17-year member of the Massachusetts House of Representatives. Greg holds degrees from Harvard College, The Kennedy School of Public Administration, and the Sloan School at MIT.
Pioneer’s mission is to develop and communicate dynamic ideas that advance prosperity and a vibrant civic life in Massachusetts and beyond.
Pioneer’s vision of success is a state and nation where our people can prosper and our society thrive because we enjoy world-class options in education, healthcare, transportation and economic opportunity, and where our government is limited, accountable and transparent.
Pioneer values an America where our citizenry is well-educated and willing to test our beliefs based on facts and the free exchange of ideas, and committed to liberty, personal responsibility, and free enterprise.
Related Posts:
This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Dr. Clayborne Carson, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Centennial Professor of History Emeritus at Stanford University and the Founding Editor of The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr. He describes the larger political and spiritual lessons Dr. King and the other leaders of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) sought to impart regarding nonviolent protest, and the complex relationship among Dr. King, the SCLC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), and less well-known civil rights figures like the late Bob P. Moses. They discuss how hymns and literary works such as Langston Hughes’s 1951 poem “Harlem (A Dream Deferred),” strongly influenced Dr. King’s sermons and speeches. Dr. Carson compares how racial issues have differed in Southern and Northern cities, noting MLK’s 1966 Chicago Campaign. They explore whether K-12 U.S. history instruction sufficiently covers the Civil Rights era compared to other important periods, and Dr. Carson offers insights on how policymakers, schools, and parents can draw on lessons from the Civil Rights era to better understand race in America. He concludes with a description of the World House Documentary Film Festival, a free, four-day webinar and virtual film festival celebrating MLK, beginning on January 14th.
Stories of the Week: In London, staff shortages from a spike in COVID cases have forced many early education programs to reduce their hours of operation or close. In an era in which technology is replacing books, how can we ensure our children develop the habits that lead to lifelong reading? An EdWeek story explores this question, which is important because long-form and pleasure reading are linked with higher academic performance.
Guest:
Dr. Clayborne Carson is the Martin Luther King, Jr. Centennial Professor of History Emeritus at Stanford University and Founding Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute. Under his direction, the King Papers Project has produced seven volumes of The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr., a definitive edition of King’s speeches, sermons, correspondence, publications, and unpublished writings. He is also the author of numerous books on the Civil Rights era, including: In Struggle: SNCC and the Black Awakening of the 1960s and Martin’s Dream: My Journey and the Legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr. A Memoir.
The next episode will air on Weds., January 19th, with guest, Ian Rowe, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where he focuses on education and upward mobility, family formation, and adoption.
Tweet of the Week:
.@nytimes highlights DFER polling of VA gubernatorial voters that showed prolonged school closures was a concern among parents when casting their ballots. https://t.co/bPNFgCnRWq
— DFER (@DFER_News) January 8, 2022
News Links:
Nurseries in England hit by staff absences after soaring Covid cases
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/10/nurseries-england-staff-absences-covid-early-years
How to Nurture Lifelong Readers in a Digital Age
https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/how-to-nurture-lifelong-readers-in-a-digital-age/2022/01
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This week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with David Keane, immigrant from Australia and founder of Bigtincan, an artificial-intelligence-powered sales enablement platform for leading companies worldwide. David believes that what makes the U.S. special is its culture both of welcoming immigrants and being willing to try new things, to take risks. In the United States, visas and exchange programs have allowed for the movement of ideas, skills and knowledge into the country. For him, that movement of people is a risk worth taking. A diversity of thought and background can bring about incredible new ideas, products and services, like his industry-leading company, not to mention create thousands of jobs as he’s done over the years. He wonders, though, about how the next generation of entrepreneurs will construct movement and sharing in a world of heightened globalization and connectedness, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.
Guest:
David Keane is Co-Founder & CEO of Bigtincan, a global leader in sales enablement automation that is helping the world’s leading brands facilitate the buying experience. David started in the networking and communications market with Utah and California-based Novell running Asian marketing for Boston-based Wellfleet Communications, Inc. then grew the business for California based Xylan Corp. in Australia and New Zealand. Subsequently, David founded Veritel Wireless Pty Ltd which grew within three years to be one of the largest providers of wireless internet in Australia. David was a pioneer in the mobile applications sector starting in 2008 with the release of the first iPhone SDK and oversaw the development, promotion and expansion of heavily downloaded apps including BuzzMe and AdFree.
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“She’s a good girl. She helps me a lot. She has big, big dreams. I don’t have the money, but she has big dreams. I hope she’s going to get everything, but she works so hard. She works so hard in school.”
“Our family is needing to make some really big sacrifices because we believe this is important, and so, we’re basically going to do whatever it takes… Sometimes we look at each other and go ‘I don’t know if I can do it again another month…’”
“A lot of the families have to sacrifice and work multiple jobs… And just scraping together enough money to just make tuition, just the basics.”
“It is discriminatory, that parents who want to choose an alternative to public school for their children, would not in any way receive any compensation for that, whether it be tax credit, whether it be a voucher…”
In the 1840s, nativist movement leaders formed official political parties and local chapters of the national Native American Party (later the American Party), although they continued to be commonly known as the Know-Nothing Party. Politicians sought to insert provisions into state constitutions against Catholics who refused to renounce the pope. The Know-Nothing movement brought bigotry and hatred to a new level of violence and organization.
The party’s legacy endured in the post-Civil War era, with laws and constitutional amendments it supported, still today severely limiting parents’ educational choices. A federal constitutional amendment was proposed by Speaker of the House James Blaine prohibiting money raised by taxation in any State to be under the control of any religious sect; nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided between religious sects or denominations. These were then named the Blaine Amendments of 1875.
in recent decades, often in response to challenges to school choice programs, the U.S. Supreme Court has demonstrated great interest in examining the issues of educational alternatives and attempts limit parental options. Massachusetts plays a key role in this debate. The Bay State was a key center of the Know-Nothing movement and has the oldest version of Anti-Aid Amendments in the nation, as well as a second such amendment approved in 1917. Two-fifths of Massachusetts residents are Catholic, and its Catholic schools outperform the state’s public schools, which are the best in the nation.
Surtax mainly impacts households and businesses whose income exceeds $1 million due to one-time business events, sales of long-held property and retirement
BOSTON – Analyses from the Massachusetts Department of Revenue (MADOR, 2016) and Tufts University’s Center for State Policy Analysis (2022) dramatically underestimated the number of households and businesses impacted by the constitutionally-imposed tax hike that the legislature is putting before voters in November 2022, according to a new study from Pioneer Institute.
A question scheduled to appear on the Massachusetts ballot next November would amend the state constitution and place a four-percent surtax on households and thousands of Massachusetts businesses that in any one year have income exceeding $1 million. In studying the effect of the proposed tax, MADOR found that 19,565 households and businesses would be impacted in the single year the tax took effect. The Tufts’ analysis estimates 26,000 would be affected in 2023.
MADOR and Tufts’ analyses focus on the impact in a single year and are therefore premised on a fundamental misunderstanding of the households and businesses affected by the tax. Those affected by the tax are primarily retirees and small businesses who have a one-time taxable event, often the sale of an asset—a home that will serve as a retirement nest-egg, a business location or subsidiary, a patent, or similar. The great majority are not “millionaires.”
A new Pioneer Institute study finds that the proposed tax would impact multiples of that amount over a nine-year period, since the majority of “millionaires” only earn $1 million once during that time.
“More than three times the number of unique individual Massachusetts taxpayers—mainly retirees and individuals who have a business pass-through—would be affected by the proposed surtax over nine years than found in these estimates,” said Greg Sullivan, author of “The Great Understatement: Far more taxpayers and businesses than previously estimated will be affected by the proposed surtax.” “The longitudinal data makes clear that a one-year analysis gives short shrift to the number of businesses and households who will be affected by this tax proposal.”
According to a 2010 Tax Foundation report, more than half the U.S. taxpayers who reported gross annual incomes of $1 million or more in any year from 1999 to 2007 did so only once during the period. Only 5.6 percent reported million-dollar incomes in each of the nine years and less than 20 percent earned $1 million or more in four or more of the years.
If the same persistence rate is applied to Massachusetts, the surtax would affect 64,843 state taxpayers – not 19,565 – over nine years. Of those, 32,470 would earn over $1 million just once in nine years. Only 3,650 would be expected to have income over $1 million each year during that period.
Because the tax proposal affects capital gains, it could sweep into thousands of retirees selling longtime homes and long-held assets.
The surtax would also impact Massachusetts businesses, since “pass throughs” such as sole proprietorships, partnerships, limited liability and S corporations are taxed via individual returns. Based on 2018 IRS data, there are over 13,000 Massachusetts businesses that had adjusted gross incomes of $1 million or more. It is not unreasonable to expect a similar multiplier effect for the number of businesses affected, but the precise impact will require more data from MADOR.
“Proponents like to call this a “millionaires tax” but at best 1 in 5 of the people affected are millionaires,” said Pioneer Executive Director Jim Stergios. “The great majority are retirees and small businesses, who aren’t millionaires hiding away in a mythical castle with a moat around it. That’s what proponents want you to believe – but the facts on this are very clear.”
About the Author
Gregory Sullivan is Pioneer’s Research Director. Prior to joining Pioneer, Sullivan served two five-year terms as Inspector General of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and was a 17-year member of the Massachusetts House of Representatives. Greg holds degrees from Harvard College, The Kennedy School of Public Administration, and the Sloan School at MIT.
Pioneer’s mission is to develop and communicate dynamic ideas that advance prosperity and a vibrant civic life in Massachusetts and beyond.
Pioneer’s vision of success is a state and nation where our people can prosper and our society thrive because we enjoy world-class options in education, healthcare, transportation and economic opportunity, and where our government is limited, accountable and transparent.
Pioneer values an America where our citizenry is well-educated and willing to test our beliefs based on facts and the free exchange of ideas, and committed to liberty, personal responsibility, and free enterprise.
Related Posts:
This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Dr. Clayborne Carson, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Centennial Professor of History Emeritus at Stanford University and the Founding Editor of The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr. He describes the larger political and spiritual lessons Dr. King and the other leaders of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) sought to impart regarding nonviolent protest, and the complex relationship among Dr. King, the SCLC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), and less well-known civil rights figures like the late Bob P. Moses. They discuss how hymns and literary works such as Langston Hughes’s 1951 poem “Harlem (A Dream Deferred),” strongly influenced Dr. King’s sermons and speeches. Dr. Carson compares how racial issues have differed in Southern and Northern cities, noting MLK’s 1966 Chicago Campaign. They explore whether K-12 U.S. history instruction sufficiently covers the Civil Rights era compared to other important periods, and Dr. Carson offers insights on how policymakers, schools, and parents can draw on lessons from the Civil Rights era to better understand race in America. He concludes with a description of the World House Documentary Film Festival, a free, four-day webinar and virtual film festival celebrating MLK, beginning on January 14th.
Stories of the Week: In London, staff shortages from a spike in COVID cases have forced many early education programs to reduce their hours of operation or close. In an era in which technology is replacing books, how can we ensure our children develop the habits that lead to lifelong reading? An EdWeek story explores this question, which is important because long-form and pleasure reading are linked with higher academic performance.
Guest:
Dr. Clayborne Carson is the Martin Luther King, Jr. Centennial Professor of History Emeritus at Stanford University and Founding Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute. Under his direction, the King Papers Project has produced seven volumes of The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr., a definitive edition of King’s speeches, sermons, correspondence, publications, and unpublished writings. He is also the author of numerous books on the Civil Rights era, including: In Struggle: SNCC and the Black Awakening of the 1960s and Martin’s Dream: My Journey and the Legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr. A Memoir.
The next episode will air on Weds., January 19th, with guest, Ian Rowe, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where he focuses on education and upward mobility, family formation, and adoption.
Tweet of the Week:
.@nytimes highlights DFER polling of VA gubernatorial voters that showed prolonged school closures was a concern among parents when casting their ballots. https://t.co/bPNFgCnRWq
— DFER (@DFER_News) January 8, 2022
News Links:
Nurseries in England hit by staff absences after soaring Covid cases
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/10/nurseries-england-staff-absences-covid-early-years
How to Nurture Lifelong Readers in a Digital Age
https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/how-to-nurture-lifelong-readers-in-a-digital-age/2022/01
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This week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with David Keane, immigrant from Australia and founder of Bigtincan, an artificial-intelligence-powered sales enablement platform for leading companies worldwide. David believes that what makes the U.S. special is its culture both of welcoming immigrants and being willing to try new things, to take risks. In the United States, visas and exchange programs have allowed for the movement of ideas, skills and knowledge into the country. For him, that movement of people is a risk worth taking. A diversity of thought and background can bring about incredible new ideas, products and services, like his industry-leading company, not to mention create thousands of jobs as he’s done over the years. He wonders, though, about how the next generation of entrepreneurs will construct movement and sharing in a world of heightened globalization and connectedness, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.
Guest:
David Keane is Co-Founder & CEO of Bigtincan, a global leader in sales enablement automation that is helping the world’s leading brands facilitate the buying experience. David started in the networking and communications market with Utah and California-based Novell running Asian marketing for Boston-based Wellfleet Communications, Inc. then grew the business for California based Xylan Corp. in Australia and New Zealand. Subsequently, David founded Veritel Wireless Pty Ltd which grew within three years to be one of the largest providers of wireless internet in Australia. David was a pioneer in the mobile applications sector starting in 2008 with the release of the first iPhone SDK and oversaw the development, promotion and expansion of heavily downloaded apps including BuzzMe and AdFree.
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Study: Tax Up For A Vote In November Would Ensnare Over Three Times More Taxpayers Than Previously Estimated
/in Economic Opportunity, Featured, Graduated Income Tax, Press Releases, Press Releases: Economic Opportunity /by Editorial StaffSurtax mainly impacts households and businesses whose income exceeds $1 million due to one-time business events, sales of long-held property and retirement
BOSTON – Analyses from the Massachusetts Department of Revenue (MADOR, 2016) and Tufts University’s Center for State Policy Analysis (2022) dramatically underestimated the number of households and businesses impacted by the constitutionally-imposed tax hike that the legislature is putting before voters in November 2022, according to a new study from Pioneer Institute.
A question scheduled to appear on the Massachusetts ballot next November would amend the state constitution and place a four-percent surtax on households and thousands of Massachusetts businesses that in any one year have income exceeding $1 million. In studying the effect of the proposed tax, MADOR found that 19,565 households and businesses would be impacted in the single year the tax took effect. The Tufts’ analysis estimates 26,000 would be affected in 2023.
MADOR and Tufts’ analyses focus on the impact in a single year and are therefore premised on a fundamental misunderstanding of the households and businesses affected by the tax. Those affected by the tax are primarily retirees and small businesses who have a one-time taxable event, often the sale of an asset—a home that will serve as a retirement nest-egg, a business location or subsidiary, a patent, or similar. The great majority are not “millionaires.”
A new Pioneer Institute study finds that the proposed tax would impact multiples of that amount over a nine-year period, since the majority of “millionaires” only earn $1 million once during that time.
“More than three times the number of unique individual Massachusetts taxpayers—mainly retirees and individuals who have a business pass-through—would be affected by the proposed surtax over nine years than found in these estimates,” said Greg Sullivan, author of “The Great Understatement: Far more taxpayers and businesses than previously estimated will be affected by the proposed surtax.” “The longitudinal data makes clear that a one-year analysis gives short shrift to the number of businesses and households who will be affected by this tax proposal.”
According to a 2010 Tax Foundation report, more than half the U.S. taxpayers who reported gross annual incomes of $1 million or more in any year from 1999 to 2007 did so only once during the period. Only 5.6 percent reported million-dollar incomes in each of the nine years and less than 20 percent earned $1 million or more in four or more of the years.
If the same persistence rate is applied to Massachusetts, the surtax would affect 64,843 state taxpayers – not 19,565 – over nine years. Of those, 32,470 would earn over $1 million just once in nine years. Only 3,650 would be expected to have income over $1 million each year during that period.
Because the tax proposal affects capital gains, it could sweep into thousands of retirees selling longtime homes and long-held assets.
The surtax would also impact Massachusetts businesses, since “pass throughs” such as sole proprietorships, partnerships, limited liability and S corporations are taxed via individual returns. Based on 2018 IRS data, there are over 13,000 Massachusetts businesses that had adjusted gross incomes of $1 million or more. It is not unreasonable to expect a similar multiplier effect for the number of businesses affected, but the precise impact will require more data from MADOR.
“Proponents like to call this a “millionaires tax” but at best 1 in 5 of the people affected are millionaires,” said Pioneer Executive Director Jim Stergios. “The great majority are retirees and small businesses, who aren’t millionaires hiding away in a mythical castle with a moat around it. That’s what proponents want you to believe – but the facts on this are very clear.”
About the Author
Gregory Sullivan is Pioneer’s Research Director. Prior to joining Pioneer, Sullivan served two five-year terms as Inspector General of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and was a 17-year member of the Massachusetts House of Representatives. Greg holds degrees from Harvard College, The Kennedy School of Public Administration, and the Sloan School at MIT.
About Pioneer
Pioneer’s mission is to develop and communicate dynamic ideas that advance prosperity and a vibrant civic life in Massachusetts and beyond.
Pioneer’s vision of success is a state and nation where our people can prosper and our society thrive because we enjoy world-class options in education, healthcare, transportation and economic opportunity, and where our government is limited, accountable and transparent.
Pioneer values an America where our citizenry is well-educated and willing to test our beliefs based on facts and the free exchange of ideas, and committed to liberty, personal responsibility, and free enterprise.
Get Updates on Our Economic Opportunity Research
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Stanford’s Prof. Clayborne Carson on Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Civil Rights Vision & Legacy
/in Civil Rights Education, Civil Rights Podcasts, Featured, News, Podcast, US History /by Editorial StaffThis week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Dr. Clayborne Carson, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Centennial Professor of History Emeritus at Stanford University and the Founding Editor of The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr. He describes the larger political and spiritual lessons Dr. King and the other leaders of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) sought to impart regarding nonviolent protest, and the complex relationship among Dr. King, the SCLC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), and less well-known civil rights figures like the late Bob P. Moses. They discuss how hymns and literary works such as Langston Hughes’s 1951 poem “Harlem (A Dream Deferred),” strongly influenced Dr. King’s sermons and speeches. Dr. Carson compares how racial issues have differed in Southern and Northern cities, noting MLK’s 1966 Chicago Campaign. They explore whether K-12 U.S. history instruction sufficiently covers the Civil Rights era compared to other important periods, and Dr. Carson offers insights on how policymakers, schools, and parents can draw on lessons from the Civil Rights era to better understand race in America. He concludes with a description of the World House Documentary Film Festival, a free, four-day webinar and virtual film festival celebrating MLK, beginning on January 14th.
Stories of the Week: In London, staff shortages from a spike in COVID cases have forced many early education programs to reduce their hours of operation or close. In an era in which technology is replacing books, how can we ensure our children develop the habits that lead to lifelong reading? An EdWeek story explores this question, which is important because long-form and pleasure reading are linked with higher academic performance.
Guest:
The next episode will air on Weds., January 19th, with guest, Ian Rowe, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where he focuses on education and upward mobility, family formation, and adoption.
Tweet of the Week:
News Links:
Nurseries in England hit by staff absences after soaring Covid cases
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/10/nurseries-england-staff-absences-covid-early-years
How to Nurture Lifelong Readers in a Digital Age
https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/how-to-nurture-lifelong-readers-in-a-digital-age/2022/01
Get new episodes of The Learning Curve in your inbox!
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
[00:00:24] GR: Hello listeners. This is Gerard Robinson from beautiful Charlottesville, Virginia. It is less cold than it was a week ago. I’m back in the house for the power and gas and all those goodies, but of course I can never cook without any real gas without my cohost. How was it up there?
[00:00:45] Cara: Cooking gas,
[00:00:46] I’m not sure, but love it. I’m so happy that you and your family are safe and sound at home. , how is it in beautiful Massachusetts? Well, I think that when you factor in the windshield today, we got to about minus [00:01:00] 10. So it’s winter. Yeah. Yeah. this is the only time I really regret getting it.
[00:01:06] I don’t regret getting a dog. Let me put it that. I just like, you got to walk the dog, the dog it’s really cold, but know this I’ve lived here for quite a long time. , so no things are okay. I will say Gerard have referenced it last week that I was afraid. We were like going back to 2020 and I have been.
[00:01:25] Feeling with my parent hat on, like, it is 2020, again, not because my kid’s school is closed, but because there are so many COVID cases that we’ve got these like isolated rolling classroom closures, and I’m really proud of my school and grateful to the folks who are doing the work of trying to isolate these cases and keep the kids who are.
[00:01:45] Coventry in school and keep the teacher safe, but it is like, it is insanity. So hoping we get through this soon. And, back to where we were, I would take like October 20, 21 sounds like a good place to be. [00:02:00] So other than that, I hope you guys are safe and healthy. , and I know we’ve got a lot of great stories to discuss.
[00:02:08] GR: Well, as you know, and of course our listeners would have found out I was actually scheduled to be in jolly old England this week. , my boss and I were, , invited to participate in a conference, held at Oxford university, , by the Jubilees. Which is how it was at the university of Birmingham in England.
[00:02:26] And because of COVID rampant through England, we had to cancel our event and they rescheduled it for the fall semester, which is totally understandable. But you were going to have a guest host today, and I know our listeners. When there’s a guest hosts or with you, because they can breathe. They’re excited.
[00:02:42] It’s not my same old voice. So you guys have to hear from me again this week, but this is in terms of my story of the week. It is actually about England and it’s about nurseries in England. They are hit. I’m pretty good with accents. That’s not one of them. [00:03:00] My youngest daughter Naomi’s , the, um, accident daughter.
[00:03:03] So if I had heard read it, you would probably enjoy it better
[00:03:05] Cara: next time. All right. I’m sorry for the interruption please.
[00:03:08] GR: Oh, no, no. Well, again, speaking of interruptions, we were interrupted from going to England, but you know, for good reason. And my story of the week is from the guardian and it’s titled nurseries in England, hit by staff absences after soaring COVID cases.
[00:03:23] And. Just like here in the United States, , Europe, , and we’ll just use the English as this example, they’re being hit, , at their schools as well, but rarely do we get a chance to talk about nurseries. And so, in fact, we’re going to visit a few nurseries when we’re in England, but they’ve had big hit and their nursery schools have been not only closed, but for those who’ve been open, they’ve been forced to, to reduce their hours.
[00:03:46] because. Some schools have lost a quarter or half their staff and thus far, , in terms of last week, 3,700 reports of, COVID cases. One week now [00:04:00] with the, with England, the court, like the United States, we have debates going forward between our education associations between government officials and parents, according to government figures that were published last week during the week before Christmas, , the government, we see 3,697 notifications of Corona virus in nursery schools, preschools, and what they call childminding.
[00:04:24] settings, which share would be early childhood learning. And each notification covers a single site and could represent more than one case. So when you jump ahead to the latest figures for our current month of January, , the government saw the number of peak to 2,707 in a single week. So the early year Alliance, which represents 14,000 members in that sector, Said that chronic reports are pretty high and that quote, it was no surprise that so many early learning centers are reporting, being forced to close or reduced hours, or even closed rooms and whole case [00:05:00] entirely related to COVID-19 cases.
[00:05:02] And so they’re having a conversation with their government about what’s safe when it’s safe to open schools, how long the schools closed and just like here in the United States. There are shifting priorities. Number one priority naturally to keep our faculty safe, our teachers safe, our students say we get that, but they’re trying to figure out what do local school systems or locals, individual schools what’s in their purview in terms of trying move things forward.
[00:05:30] So according to the same group, here’s an interesting quote, statutorily. Uh, , dope. The child ratios in early year settings ensure a high standard of care and education, but it makes it particularly difficult for this sector to manage staff absentees, which often occur at the last minute. We know here in the United States, this is a really big problem, , in big cities from New York to Philadelphia.
[00:05:55] All the way to small systems. So I just mentioned this story to put [00:06:00] in context that, this is something happening to one of our, , , ally countries, England. , they’re dealing with, there’s at least talking about it with nursery schools. We haven’t talked a great deal about it on the show. So I think it was worth mentioning, but, there are some lessons that we can do.
[00:06:14] from them there’s lessons, they can learn from us, but had I been there, I wouldn’t have had a chance to visit some of these schools, but I want to wish all of those who are in England, all of the, employees, staff, educators, who are working in, , their child might need. , good luck be safe, , condolences to those.
[00:06:32] Who’ve lost a family member either this year or last year. And the saying that we say to our educators and families, lawmakers here, let’s work together to move forward. What are your.
[00:06:44] Cara: I think, well, I’m glad you bring up this story for so many reasons. First of all, I hope you’ll be getting to England sometime soon and I’m probably gonna like pack myself in someone’s luggage to get out of here.
[00:06:52] But, a couple of things read. First of all, just as a student of ed policy, it’s always been so [00:07:00] fascinating to me to, , look at the similarities and differences between, , The English school system in particular, more so than the British system in general, but the English school system and what happens in the U S , part of my dissertation focused on, the English system with specific regard to sort of how they targeted resources to certain kids.
[00:07:18] but I think, , you’re pointing out , some of the pressures that they’re experiencing in the same sector, and this is something, , we haven’t talked about. About childminders in this country, on the learning curve. it’s something that, , you and I both think about a lot. , and , I think that especially we’ll see what happens in the coming year.
[00:07:37] It doesn’t look like, , the presidents build that better agenda among other things is off the ground yet, , within its provisions to help us think about how we serve little kids and how we serve those who serve little kids. , there are some. Challenges and benefits and, good things and risks all to be discussed.
[00:07:55] But this is a really important thing to have on our radar. And to your point, it’s just a critical [00:08:00] field. And, when we don’t have people to step in. Causes a ripple effects throughout the whole system. So thank you so much for bringing that story to our attention today. , I’ve got a story that’s I was looking for something, , , to bring a little bit of a smile to my face and maybe to make me feel better about myself chart, because I tell you like I said, being back in what feels like 2020, and trying to juggle work with, , making sure my kids .
[00:08:23] Don’t do bodily harm to one another and maybe like, say their alphabet, during the day they’re not doing remote learning when they’re home on quarantine, but, trying to keep them away from screens and such. this is an article about, , creating. Lifelong readers. And I consider myself to be a lifelong reader.
[00:08:42] Gerard. I know you are too. I read for pleasure all the time. In fact, I drive my husband nuts because I can’t fall asleep at night without reading. , but this is from ed week and it’s called how to nurture lifelong. In a digital age and it’s really, you know, we’ve had folks, we’ve had literacy experts and folks talking about the [00:09:00] benefits of reading aloud with children, et cetera, on this show.
[00:09:03] And we’ve also had folks talk to us about, , this new age, this digital age that we’re living in and risks and benefits of it. But here, , this is an interesting take because I’m going to, I’m actually going to quote Kristen Turner who is quoted in. , article, she is a professor of teacher education at drew university and she says, there’s a lot of pressure on readers today to be able to select texts that are purposeful and useful and to discard others.
[00:09:30] And then what she’s talking about here is sort of like what we are presenting to our kids in schools. And she says that this pressure to like select texts and only view certain things as useful is problematic when it comes to developing that idea that. Kids have to like to read, right. That reading is not just a thing that you have to do, but it should be a positive habit that kids form the kids want to do.
[00:09:55] , I like to think of like in little kids, , like I’m an exerciser and if I don’t get up and [00:10:00] exercise every day at six in the morning, Gerard, like watch out the people who are in my way, because I will be in a very bad mood. Right. And sort of the same thing with that habit. Pleasure reading, not being forced to read, but picking up a book because you want to.
[00:10:13] And when our kids are faced with all of these other distractions, I mean, you and I probably had the biggest distraction we had in our homes was like the television. Think of the multiple things that can distract our kids today. If we’re not on it. And a book might be. They pick up.
[00:10:29] So I really appreciated this and they tie in the article. They tie like the idea of developing good reading habits and reading for pleasure in kids to Nate reading scores. And , one of the things we know is that over time NAPE reading scores have , vermin flat and in some cases gone down and, kids in this country.
[00:10:47] just aren’t reading at the levels that we need them to. And in one of the connections that the folks in this article making it’s written by Sarah Sparks are saying, is that maybe we’ve really taken the wrong tact in like pushing [00:11:00] certain texts on kids. Instead of saying, as I’ve seen in some really high performing schools, Hey, we’re all going to read together.
[00:11:07] as a class silently, book that we love for 20 minutes or something like that, whether it’s daily or every other day to develop that habit of reading. And I’m happy to say that so far, I do have readers in my house. , one of the things I will point out though, is. Become an expensive habit.
[00:11:25] Although we try and use our local library, my kids have gotten so into some, , newer books and newer book series that they like that they’re not always available. They’re very popular. So they’re not always available at a local library. And I am so into like promoting that instant gratification that I am often very likely to allow my children to choose a book from our local bookstore.
[00:11:43] So I just, convinced myself that I’m supporting a small, independent business Gerard. It is a rather expensive habit. , anyway, I really appreciate this article. I hope that we are all thinking about, , early literacy as we, your [00:12:00] stories about early education. This is about early literacy.
[00:12:02] , but as we enter new year and think about the things that in education policy, we should all be focused on early literacy is one of them in reading for pleasure and developing good reading. Such as reading for pleasure. Is this just such an important part of developing lifelong high-performing readers?
[00:12:19] So.
[00:12:21] GR: I’m all with you. , my three daughters are big readers. , I am, of course my wife is as well. We’ve had some great guests on the show. Who’ve talked about, , the importance of literacy, at different levels, some focusing early some later, but just the whole idea of what it means to be literate and what it means to be a whole person.
[00:12:40] So , it’s, you know, , what comes to mind? Uh, Danielle, let’s talk about Horace Mann and common schools. We’ve had ed Hirsch really enjoy talking to Brittany Hughes about the classics, what role that plays even in early literacy and the joy of reading. And I remember our guests who is an award winning writer for [00:13:00] the wall street journal, who actually, critiques.
[00:13:03] Focused on literacy. So this has really been an important topic. One thing about the pandemic that lot of people have overlooked are the role that libraries have played in working not only with adults, but the children of adults who for holster reason said, you know what, we’re going to make the library, our friend, , it’s one place we can go to.
[00:13:22] It’s often open when the school is not. And so. It’s going to be really interesting. And I’m sure there are some funders who are already thinking about this, or we’ll put some money in the hands of some researchers. what role did libraries play in the absence of schools being open in driving literacy for young people and that of adults?
[00:13:42] Because when we think of libraries, when we think of young people, but as you just said, You make use of them. And in fact, my family was there last week. So, , this is a great article. Something that we need to continue to push, but in a strange, strange way, I think one, , spillover effect of this will be [00:14:00] yes, learning gap.
[00:14:01] We know that, learning loss, we know that, but for some people, I think this is going to know. And it’d be in a silver lining for them because they’re going to make great use of encouraging their children to read because a lot of parents were home reading with their children and those who have trouble, reading.
[00:14:17] And we know there’s over a 30 million people, adults, particularly in the United States who have trouble with literacy. many of them have used online services, to make this happen so greatly.
[00:14:28] Cara: Yeah, it is. I want to ask you to Gerard, , , what’s a book that you’ve either read recently or that you’re reading now, because I think this is always, I love to ask folks this question, because then I get new books from.
[00:14:39] GR: So the book that I’m reading for my academic side is locking up our own. It was written by James Foreman, Jr. the book won the Pulitzer prize a few years ago, and it’s basically the story about, , crime and punishment. The role the courts played in it, the role race plays in it, but he gives really good.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] examples of what took place in DC and New York city, , during the seventies and eighties, he’s a professor of criminal justice at Yale. He’s also, , one of the co-founders of the , Maya Angelo charter school in DC. So reading. On my, just interest and intellectual side, which has nothing per se to do with work.
[00:15:20] I am reading will in the world, how Shakespeare became Shakespeare and it’s by Stephen Greenblatt, who at one point was a professor of literature at Yale. , it was a finalist for the Pulitzer prize. I, not too long ago, had a chance to, , go to the Shakespeare theater here in Virginia. And we had a chance to.
[00:15:41] Listen to actually watch, one of the plays, which one I don’t remember right now, but I do have the book around here, but that’s what I’m doing right now.
[00:15:50] Cara: It, those a good recommended, and it also tells me a lot about you, right? Because those are all nonfiction. I believe that.
[00:15:57] Dr. Carson: Yes.
[00:15:57] Yeah.
[00:15:58] Cara: Yeah. So see, I would be, , [00:16:00] unlike an escapist, I, at the end of the day, I want to read nothing to do with my job, or I would recommend to our readers, I just finished a novel called like literally this morning called the invisible life of Addie live Ru by the Schwab.
[00:16:14] And I highly recommend it. It was really, really interesting. I also have to advise for the parents out there, I’ve got, on almost 12 years. Who is a voracious reader, but part of what comes with that is she likes to try to read things that are maybe the contents, not where, uh, mommy and poppy want her to be.
[00:16:31] You know what I’m saying? So I like to read why a fiction ahead of her meaning that I vet, , what she reads sometimes because, why fiction is young adults? Go all the way up to like the age of 18. And sometimes that’s not appropriate for a 12 year old. So doing that, I would also recommend to our listeners something that I have been reading for work, , because, this wonderful professor presented at the accelerated summit this year.
[00:16:56] , I think you were there to see. , Gerard was professor Joe bowler, [00:17:00] the author of limitless mind. So I would recommend all of those to our readers, but fiction. non-fictional like, look, see, now our readers have like five recommendations for what they can have on their shelves in the coming weeks.
[00:17:11] Right. Gerard. We are coming up on Martin Luther king Jr’s birthday. We will be remembering his legacy early next week on the 17th. And today’s guest knows a lot about the man. , we’re going to be speaking to Dr. Clayborne Carson. He is Professor of History Emeritus at Stanford university, and probably more pertinent to our conversation today.
[00:17:38] Founding director of the papers of Martin Luther King.[00:18:00]
[00:18:56] GR: Welcome listeners to another edition of the learning curve. [00:19:00] I am so honored to have as our speaker today, Dr. Clayborne Carson, who is the Martin Luther king Jr. Centennial professor of history. Stanford university and the founding director of the Martin Luther king Jr. Research and education initiative under his direction.
[00:19:16] The king paper project has produced seven volumes of the papers of Martin Luther king Jr. A definitive edition of key speeches, sermons, correspondences, publications, and writing. He is also the author of numerous books on the civil rights era, including struggle, SNCC and the Black awakening of the 1960s and Martin’s dream, my journey and legacy of Martin Luther king Jr.: A Memoir.
[00:19:44] Dr. Carson, welcome to The Learning Curve. Glad to have you on board. Listeners, you should know that if you want to see Dr. Carson in action, you should also go to our webpage and go to [00:20:00] 2015 video and take a look at the civil rights issue of our time, where we had a chance to talk about.
[00:20:04] education at a different level. So, Dr. Carson, this is a really big month for the United States, really for the world, to talk about the legacy and the meaning of Martin Luther King, you as a scholar of King, you’ve worked closely with his work. Many of us know Dr. King and other leaders. Important players in the creation of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, many of them were Baptist ministers who were committed to non-violent protests and the work that they participated in them, they called soul force.
[00:20:33] Would you share with our listeners how Dr. King was trying to provide larger spiritual and political leadership to our nation at that time?
[00:20:42] Dr. Carson: Well, I think that was his, role. I mean, he did not launch the movement. I guess Rosa Parks would say that, the movement came out of her action rather than Martin Luther King’s instruction and leadership.
[00:20:55] But I think that once the movement began [00:21:00] to spread during the 1950s and 1960s, he was the one who articulated it best. And I think he was the one who we remember in terms of his ability, to arouse the conscience of the nation. For me seeing him at the March on Washington, everyone wanted to stay for the final speech because they knew the March wasn’t complete until Martin Luther King had his say.
[00:21:26] And of course that has become one of the most famous speeches in this country. So yeah, he definitely played a major role and my job is to really strengthen his legacy by making his historical materials more widely available. And I’m still doing that. Now I’ve launched another project based on his ideas, called the World House Project.
[00:21:47] I’m retired as a teacher, but I continue to teach online, using all of the historical materials, not just the traditional documents. But things like [00:22:00] videos and photographs and all these materials that allow people to become immersed in that area. And I think that that’s the future of education is combining the creativeness of documentaries, with more traditional Lectures, which are typically narratives of the past, but I really want to have my students understand the past directly through involvement with these audio-visual images.
[00:22:26] GR: It’s wonderful. When you mentioned, Rosa parks and the role that she played. I also think of, Septima Clark and Joanne Robinson and the role that so many women played in the civil rights movement not only in Alabama, but across the country who are often overlooked and Dr. King himself,
[00:22:43] Dr. Carson: someone like Dorothy Cotton.
[00:22:46] GR: Exactly. Well, since you mentioned SNCC, let’s go to the next question. Dr. King of course, is involved with SCLC. You also have the student nonviolent coordinating committee. Could you discuss the relationship [00:23:00] between Dr. King, SCLC and SNCC and maybe some less well-known civil right leaders like Bob P. Moses,
[00:23:08] Dr. Carson: For me, as a young person coming up in the 1960s, I was 19 when I went to the March. So my heroic figures where the young people in SNCC , I admired Martin Luther king, but, my role models were people like Bob Moses, Stokely Carmichael, Diane Nash.
[00:23:29] People who were my age, college-age and they were to a certain extent followers of Martin Luther king, but they were also saying “catch up, Martin, we’re ahead of you.” and I kind of had that attitude, that what we were doing was really the vanguard of the movement and that Martin Luther King was the spokesperson.
[00:23:49] But I, think we had a tendency maybe to overestimate the value of our role, for me, and by moving to Los Angeles and becoming very [00:24:00] much involved with a group called the nonviolent action committee, we thought that we were pushing Martin Luther King and then Martin Luther King would eventually recognize that he would have to move to the urban areas where there were all
[00:24:14] racial problems that had to be dealt with. And that’s what we were working on. Issues like housing and employment issues. And all the things that eventually bought Martin Luther King to Watts in 1965, after the violence broke out there. After that, of course he moved to Chicago because he recognized that he had to spread his message to the urban areas in the north and
[00:24:38] not just focused entirely on the south.
[00:24:41] GR: That was a little bit funny. You mentioned Watts. My mother and father were actually in LA during what people call the Watts riots. My dad had a house there and, as a young kid, I guess I would have been a couple years old. And he took me to watch to see Robert F.
[00:24:57] Kennedy, when he came to that area. [00:25:00] You mentioned Stokely Carmichael, and just brought to mind. Is it true that Stokely Carmichael is a person who is responsible for getting Dr. King to move away from using the term Negro?
[00:25:12] Dr. Carson: I think that that was something that was gradually happening. Malcolm X played a role in that, even earlier. Yeah, it was a gradual shift. I think that reflected that in terms of my own sense of identity but it was, larger than simply “Negro” rather than “black.”
[00:25:31] I was smart enough to know that both words mean the same thing. But it was also a sense of what was our destiny? Where are we moving? In some ways, all of us had different answers to that question that Martin Luther King asked, where do we go from here? he was asking that in 1967, we all had our answers to that question.
[00:25:51] He was saying at that time that that’s the crucial question and it had to be answered on a global basis that we had [00:26:00] to, begin to understand that this was a global struggle and the alternatives were chaos or community. And that became the basis.
[00:26:10] King talked about a “world house” that we’ve inherited. And so I translate that as well. We need to learn how to live in this world house and, that’s an educational project and that’s what I’ve taken on.
[00:26:24] GR: Exactly. You mentioned the north. In 1966, we have the Chicago campaign that Dr. King said was one of the worst experiences that he had, a lot of violence also erupted.
[00:26:35] Could you talk about the racial issues in the north and south, and maybe in particular, how King thought about strategies for each or maybe even both?
[00:26:46] Dr. Carson: Well, I think that’s what he was trying to do by moving to Chicago was he was trying to say that. Is that tendency in the north to leave behind nonviolence as a basic principle of the movement.
[00:26:57] And I think he was making the [00:27:00] argument that we had to stick to that, that nonviolence was the best approach in the north, as well as the south. It was a harder argument, in the north, because there were already groups like the Black Panther party that were saying, it’s time to pick up.
[00:27:14] And it was harder also because of the times for me as a person who was being drafted go to Vietnam, the choice was not nonviolence, the course was if you don’t fight for your freedom, you’ll get drafted to fight for American democracy in Vietnam. That was just much more difficult
[00:27:34] for people like myself to remain convinced that non-violence was the answer, in the north as well as the south. And I think that is unfortunate. I think that, from the perspective I have now, I think that we underestimated the power of nonviolence and that’s maybe one of the things that’s getting picked up by
[00:27:54] the black lives matter movement of our time is that, it’s again, kind of reaffirming that when [00:28:00] you mobilize enough people, you don’t need to have the vanguard that the Black Panther party saw its role playing, that can confuse the issue because the opposition of course becomes far more well-armed than any Black Panther party could ever be.
[00:28:19] And you’re not going to win that way. So I think that it’s a lesson that was important to learn during that time. And I hope we did learn it. I hope that we don’t go back to thinking that if we have an armed revolutionary movement, we can bring about the change we want.
[00:28:33] It’s just not likely in the 21st century.
[00:28:36] GR: One of the things that King and others did during those trying times was to rely on history on poems, hymn spirituals, and other documents, even documentaries at the time for inspiration, Langston Hughes, 1951 poem, Harlem, a dream differed, strongly influenced Dr.
[00:28:54] King’s speeches and his sermons. What role. Do you [00:29:00] think that that played on him? Not only as a civil rights person, but also as a leader, as a man, and as a thinker during some trying times when he was constantly under, threat of death, , when he began to lose friends, how did , , this literature play a role in his life?
[00:29:19] Dr. Carson: Oh, I think a great role. he was, of course, as a Baptist minister, familiar with culture of resistance in the black community, it is conveyed through three of them songs , , there’s so many that, , he worked into who is oratory , and I think that that’s important for young people to understand is that, Music is, that cultural, meaning that, everybody understands, every sustain movement throughout the world has in some ways relied on music because it’s something that everyone can.
[00:29:54] Relate to you. You don’t have to be a great singer to sing a freedom song. You don’t have to sing the song, to [00:30:00] understand when people are saying, keep your eyes on the prize, That is a way for people to collectively work together. The labor movements of the United States have always understood that.
[00:30:13] and there are times of great movement that song as a way of expressing solidarity and that solidarity is necessary, to move forward. so I think that. Always need to understand that deciding how to move forward is connected to that sense of who we are as a, people.
[00:30:34] And there’s no better way of expressing weakness than singing together. his last question, where do we go from here? because simple question, but it’s very complex because we have to decide who is the we in that question? Who are we going to move forward with? And there’s nothing like, during a protest to have a song convey that sense of solidarity.
[00:30:58] GR: Dr. Clean [00:31:00] had a lot of influences and you’ve mentioned some. , two that come to mind to me are Dr. Mordecai Johnson, who became first black president of Howard university, which is my Alma mater. as I mentioned, I was a philosophy major, with your student,, with your son, Malcolm and Howard, but also you had Morehouse graduate, Dr.
[00:31:18] Howard Thurman, who had a chance to travel to India. These are two figures that some of our listeners may know little about. You talk to us about those two men and how they influenced the king, , who ultimately we became familiar with.
[00:31:32] Dr. Carson: Yeah. I’m glad you mentioned that because one of the important things that’s not widely known, even, in the black community is how much.
[00:31:41] people like Howard Thurman and, Mordecai Johnson played and conveying the, Gandhi and movement in India to the United States. And of course that has a tremendous impact on Martin Luther king and on the black struggle as a whole, Gandhi, arrival in India. And[00:32:00] I think it was around the world war one, From that point on black newspapers picked up the gun story because you can imagine the impact on the world of the British empire was deleting empire of the world.
[00:32:13] And here was this, nonwhite guy, in India who was Challenging the strongest empire in the world and, coming out, handling them pretty well. , eventually leading an independence movement that, succeeded. Now it took decades. But during that time, Howard Thurman and I think Mordecai Johnson was part of that delegation.
[00:32:36] Right. organize the delegation to go over and meet with guns in 1936. And they were able to spend a day talking with him and, bringing back these ideas. and of course, Benjamin Mays was part of that. And he became the mentor of Martin Luther king. So, , Martin Luther king and 1959 himself went to India, to meet with some of these [00:33:00] individuals.
[00:33:00] And now I recall in. Well, I guess there was 50 years later, going to India, myself and retracing, Martin Luther king stops. And they went with, , Martin the third and, , people like, Andrew Young and other people, John Lewis came on that trip , so we all went and. Not only gotten these steps, but partly the king steps because we followed pretty much the same, , tour of India that, Martin Luther king had.
[00:33:27] And that’s some of the same people who remembered Martin Luther King’s, trip. so I think that that connection, between the Gandhi and movement in India and Martin Luther king is, extremely infant. In terms of understanding the role of someone like, oh my gosh, there’s so many, what I would call the black gun Indians, the ones who are trying to bring over these ideas that I’m, non-violent direct action to the United States and, , James Lawson, I guess that’s one of the most prominent about us.
[00:33:57] he was the one who. [00:34:00] And helped organize the people who would later lead the sit-ins and the freedom rides. so yeah, that connection is still around by the way, because we held a conduct king conference here at Stanford, a couple of years back and brought, more than 500 people from all over the world.
[00:34:17] South Africa, as well as India and the United States. Isla Gandhi, you know, uh, was one of the, significant figures in the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa. And she’s the granddaughter of Gandhians. She lived nearly all of her life and South Africa word God, the himself got his start as a non-violent activist.
[00:34:39] So I think particularly important for young people to understand the global context of, of. Because in the 21st century, we are talking about a global movement. We are talking about a world house. And without that understanding that it’s always been these global influences and [00:35:00] the anti-colonial movement to the civil rights movement, to the movements that are going on right now.
[00:35:06] that’s what young people need to understand is that there’s this long history of. , what I would call, pan African Asian movements and the interchange of ideas in this. I could mentioned, , that this weekend. During our most important project for the king holiday. we’re having a film festival. And, if you just do a Google search for the world house project at Stanford, you’ll see list of films that anyone anywhere in the world can watch for free this weekend.
[00:35:35] GR: Well, thank you so much for including your personal story. India is just one example, but all those years of scholarship, at Stanford, thank you so much for sharing, , some ideas behind the world house project. I’m sure our listeners will. look that up. Thank you again for, , not only being a scholar of Dr.
[00:35:54] King, but a scholar of what it means to be a whole person, , in a world that oftentimes. [00:36:00] Wants to break us up into pieces and being an academic Ray of hope, four generation of scholars and leaders. And many of those were just interested in learning more about king and learning more about history. So with that, thank you so much for joining us and, , just know that here at the learning curve, we will continue to follow your work and to support you as we can.
[00:36:20] Dr. Carson: Take care.
[00:36:21]
[00:36:41] GR: So Cara, my tweet of the week is from Democrats for education reform, , via the New York times. And in highlights, differs polling of voters in Virginia, , my home state and it showed that the prolonged school closure was a concern amongst parents. who were [00:37:00] casting a ballot and someone who is in the state who voted, but who also saw schools closed.
[00:37:06] That was a major, , factor for both Democrats and Republicans. And while critical race theory is taken up a lot of the oxygen in the room as to what pushed Governor Youngkin over to the winning side, really have to look at school closures. For many families that was a bigger issue and something that we should look at.
[00:37:29] Cara: Yeah, man. I tell you, your home state of Virginia is really getting its fair share of attention in the, news and media these days, , real spotlight on it. And you can see , , what happens, especially in education policy in the coming months,
[00:37:40] GR: direct will speaking of, education in Virginia.
[00:37:43] Give a congratulations to Amy Gudera is the new Virginia secretary of education. Cara and I know Amy through our previous lives and work in school reform. she is a national expert on data on quality [00:38:00] and accountability. So, glad to have you here in the Commonwealth, Amy, and look forward, baby.
[00:38:04] At some point, even having.
[00:38:06] Cara: I was just going to say the same. Come on down, Amy. We’re ready to have you all right to ride. Next week, we are going to be speaking with, in Rome, a colleague of yours from the American enterprise Institute, where he focuses on education and upward mobility, family formation and adoption.
[00:38:22] So it’s going to be a great conversation. I think many of our listeners will know Ian Rowe and his work and looking forward to it. Gerard happy. Happy you’re safe. You be happy that it’s probably not minus 10 degrees where you are, but, uh, I’m looking for 35 degrees tomorrow. That’s all I have to say.
[00:38:41] Take care of yourself.[00:39:00]
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/in Economic Opportunity, Featured, JobMakers /by Editorial StaffThis week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with David Keane, immigrant from Australia and founder of Bigtincan, an artificial-intelligence-powered sales enablement platform for leading companies worldwide. David believes that what makes the U.S. special is its culture both of welcoming immigrants and being willing to try new things, to take risks. In the United States, visas and exchange programs have allowed for the movement of ideas, skills and knowledge into the country. For him, that movement of people is a risk worth taking. A diversity of thought and background can bring about incredible new ideas, products and services, like his industry-leading company, not to mention create thousands of jobs as he’s done over the years. He wonders, though, about how the next generation of entrepreneurs will construct movement and sharing in a world of heightened globalization and connectedness, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.
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Denzil Mohammed:
I’m Denzil Mohammed, and this is Jobmakers.
Denzil Mohammed:
Last week, we spoke with Swedish thinker, Johan Norberg about openness, the free move of people and ideas, and the progress that results in the United States, visas and exchange programs have allowed further movement of ideas, skills, and knowledge into the country. The result. Well, for one thing, immigrants make up more than a third of America’s Nobel Prize Laureate for David Keane, immigrant from Australia and founder of Bigtincan, an artificial intelligence powered sales enablement platform for leading companies worldwide that is headquartered in Boston and deploys more than 400 people. That movement of people is a risk worth. Taking a diversity of thought and background can bring about incredible new ideas, products, and services like his industry leading company, not to mention, create thousands of jobs as he’s done over the years. David believes that what makes the us special is its culture, both of welcoming immigrants and being willing to try new things, to take risks. He wonders though about how the next generation of entrepreneurs will construct movement and sharing in a world of high globalization and connectedness. As you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers,
Denzil Mohammed:
David Keane, founder of Big Tin Can welcome to JobMakers. Thank you so much for having me great to be here. You’re the first a we’ve interviewed. So congratulations on that.
David Keane:
Thank you. Now I’ll try and control this outrageous Australian accent I have. So the listeners can make sense of what we’re saying, but no, it’s just wonderful to be here and really excited to talk about our story and share more with you. So in a nutshell, describe for the general public is this and what it does Bigtincan is an enterprise software company. And what that means is we make software that is used by enterprise organizations. That’s normally sort of larger companies that are faced with a really significant challenge in their business today. Now the reality of business for many enterprises is that because of this digital revolution we’ve had and internet and social media, when they think about their customers, they’re faced with the reality that those customers are better prepared and more informed than ever before, before they meet someone on their customer facing team.
David Keane:
And whether that’s a sales person or a customer success person, or a customer support person, that human being, whether they actually engage with a customer or a prospect, is finding that very often that customer has done more research and actually sometimes knows more than their own staff member that’s supposed to help them. And this is a significant change in how the economy works. I’d like the, the videos out there to think about it in their own world. How many times have you gone into a, you know, a cell phone shop or, you know, to buy a new retail product or to buy a financial services offering, or even some kind of industrial equipment where you have no more about what you need than the person who’s supposed to be helping you or selling to you now that’s caused a change in our economy. And we believe that those human beings who are working on the customer facing side of enterprise organizations need new ways to get better prepared themselves and more informed. So we build the software that enterprise organizations, and we now have 97 of the Fortune 500 deploying our technology. They use that to make sure that every one of their human beings that works with their customers is themselves better prepared and more informed to actually deliver a better service and better experience to that buyer. And so our software is used to really try and make that connection more powerful.
Denzil Mohammed:
So even in the two thousands, you were thinking about this, you know, in a time prior to a lot of the technology and resources that the general public has. Why did you think it was so important to focus on this particular area?
David Keane:
Well, I, my background actually, when I, it goes back, it goes back to the 1990s slash maybe some of our, our listeners here remember the 1990s. But, you know, there was a time when, when you were in a customer, you had all these support services to actually help you to be better prepared and, and more informed for your own engagements with customers as we went through the 2000s much of that disappeared. And certainly the GFC caused many of those support roles to go away forever. Now we believed that some of that work could be done. Computers can be done by smart software, and we have the technology now to build smart software that can actually really help folks to work better and smarter.
David Keane:
I know it seem, may seem like a long bow to draw, but if you think about today’s world of self-driving cars, how they can, you know, help you to perform safer, you know, get from point a to point B more, a few, we believe that software can help human beings and a customer facing role to do the same versus London versus Tasmania. I mean, how that’s a of DS, right? Well, we’ve, it is in fact for many organizations, it is a strategic advantage to be in a global market. And for big 10 can, you know, we realize that the need someone has in Tokyo or in London or in Tasmania is actually very similar and we can solve those problems with smart data science models and smart software that understand the nuances of those local environments. And just by the way, we’re in more than 40 languages, not just in multiple locations in more than 40 languages.
David Keane:
And we know that with software, we can start to address those needs and we can make someone in Tokyo. Who’s part of an organization based out of, out of London, feel connected to that company to have access, you know, to the right content and the right materials. So they can actually really make a difference. But yeah, I think it’s the reality for many organizations is there’s a global opportunity. Now we have to also act local while we think global, but, oh geez. If we can start take advantage of the power of technology, we can make the world more effective.
Denzil Mohammed:
That’s fascinating. I mean, you talk about this globalized world you’re yourself of you’re from Australia. This podcast is about immigrant entre entrepreneurs in the us. How has that perspective of being an immigrant shift, the, the vision for your business?
David Keane:
Look, I think it’s always interesting when you look at the world and I’ve been very fortunate to have had a chance to visit a bunch of places and meet some incredible people all over the world. You know, one thing for me is that I I’m always reminding myself of how similar the world is, even in our differences and that we have an opportunity to be able to make the world better by embracing those differences, but also helping folks to achieve the similar goals we have in our everyday lives. You know, I think being an immigrant is a huge opportunity and I I’m really appreciative of the, the welcome I’ve had here in the United States and the, the human beings that have been so helpful in helping big team Canada, helping myself and my family to feel incredibly welcome here.
David Keane:
But I also know that we are very fortunate coming from Australia. And I know that that experience is not the same for everybody. Australia has a particular relationship with America and, you know, I think we’ve been very fortunate to be so welcomed and I’m sure it’s not the same for everybody. So I just really, you know, appreciate that. And I think though, you know, when you, when you really break it all down, it, it doesn’t matter where you’re from. It’s it’s are you able to bring about, are you able to think in, in, in new and interesting ways about how you can make the world better and how you could understand the real world problems that people have and the more you see of the world, I think the better you can be doing. So, yeah, I mean, I think as, as a message to other immigrants coming into America and wherever it is, you choose to go around the world.
David Keane:
I think it’s a unique opportunity. And whilst there will be challenges, if you make the most of it, I think the opportunity for growth is really strong.
Denzil Mohammed:
You mentioned some really fascinating things there about, you know, the universality of this globalized world, all the things that we have in common. And yet they are very marked differences, language, culture backgrounds, economic statuses, mm-hmm <affirmative> that we, that we also need to recognize and you, you mentioned that, you know, the relationship of Australia to the us, your move to the us was a very deliberate,uand thoughtful move you, their moved here strategically. How have you seen as a business owner, diversity, diversity of thought, diversity of background, Vivi immigration to the us affecting innovation and entrepreneurship. Do you think it’s something that’s needed to innovate?
David Keane:
Oh, I, I think it is needed as a very interesting word, but I think it is incredibly helpful to have a broad and diverse background as a human being.
David Keane:
It, it doesn’t matter where you’re from, if you have a diverse and broad understanding and you have a broad set of skills, I think that adds tremendous tremendously to the innovation opportunity. You know, one of the things that helped, I think, in, in that I saw coming from a small market like Australia, where you, you couldn’t be as deep in any individual area, you had to be more broad because small markets. So, so you didn’t have the same degree of specialization you have in the bigger markets traditionally in the us, because of the scale of, of the market. You see many humans who just go deep, deep, deep, a particular topic, so they can be the super expert at that area. And you combine that with multiple people who sort of pass on the Baton as they go between areas of expertise, smaller markets, less mature markets, you need to have a more diverse set of skills.
David Keane:
And I think that is definitely helpful. If you understand a broader range of things, I think you can bring innovation in new ways with that. But, but I do believe that, you know, this idea that you can bring your skills and your approach to the world is really what our future is all about. And again, I’m looking forward to seeing what the next generation of entrepreneurs can do, whether they’re, you know, where wherever in the world, they’re starting out and wherever they see their future, you know, that opportunity to be able to bring their experience and their backgrounds to big markets, I think is what’s gonna change our world even more. Can you gimme an example perhaps of how that diversity of thought, you know, brought something to fruition?
David Keane:
Oh, in, in, in our world, one of the advantages we had actually starting back in Australia. So this company started in Australia and we had our, our first customers in Australia. And we were able to go to those first customers and bring them what you now see in our product. This, like we talked about it before of this combination of, you know, skills, development, content, delivery, and insights into customer engagements. You know, we were doing all of those things. When we first started the company, we weren’t just doing one of them deep. We were doing all of them. And if we hadn’t have been doing all of them, we wouldn’t have been able to translate that in the same way to scale that we’re doing now, we just wouldn’t have worked, but we were forced to because the market we were in was not ready to support that degree of specialization.
David Keane:
And so that diverse thinking, diverse, forced diverse view was incredibly important to help us to build where we are today. And if we look at some of our human beings in the global big team can team, we’re so fortunate to have people that have also had that diverse background, cultural experience, technology, you know, social, those things together can make a difference.
Denzil Mohammed:
There’s this theme of almost capitalizing on the globalization that has happened and seeing all the benefits that can be can accrue from it. But, you know, we are living in a time where nationalism is, is at the forefront of a lot of people’s minds. They want to close in. And even during the pandemic where we connected over Zoom, which by the way, founded by immigrant from China, indeed. How, how do you respond to, to the wave of nationalism given that globalization has empowered your business so much.
David Keane:
But I still believe that most human beings want opportunity.
David Keane:
They wanna be able to take, build futures for their families, and they wanna be able to create new and exciting ideas. That’s what human beings exist for. And most of that is the same. And our team here has really embraced that and the idea that our humans can move around the world and be part of that experience, you know, just, we have had human beings that have moved from the United States to Australia, where the companies moved them there, because that was an opportunity for their am and their families to have a personal experience that was strong. We’ve moved human beings from Australia to, to north America. You know, this idea that we can move people around and have them welcomed. And part of creating that future, I think is essential for everybody. So, so look at the end of the day, you know, I, I do feel that what souls, and again, some of this is naive.
David Keane:
I know it is, but I can’t help this, this, this idea that when you bring people together and you see each other and you realize that people want the same thing that helps people to be more connected in a world where people are connected is a better world than a world where people are siloed and separate, but, you know, look it is, it’s also wonderful to be able to have these dialogues. And I do applaud you for the way you’re doing this and the questions you’re asking. Cause some of these are not easy questions. They’re really not, they’re confronting questions, but I really applaud you for asking them. I think we have to be able to say to the world, some of these things, we don’t have the answer for, but we’ve gotta at least understand that they’re there. And then we’ll hopefully make incrementally better decisions as we move forward.
Denzil Mohammed:
It’s quite fascinating. You talk about it like this, the bringing together of people generates ideas because in the very last podcast interview that, that I did with Johan Norberg from Sweden, who’s from the Cato Institute one of his books, he says, when allowed freedom, they don’t create chaos, but progress. And so I find that very, very fascinating, cuz that’s exactly what you’re talking about here. The bringing together people and ideas brings up, you know, things to fruition.
David Keane:
It probably brings up bad ideas as well. I think the reality is we have to be honest with that too. Bringing people together can sometimes bring up things that are not optimal that are not advancing us in the way we wanna be advanced. I don’t think it’s always that there is a guaranteed outcome, but that’s a risk worth taking because if we, as a society, believe that fundamentally everybody is good, but certainly I, I do.
David Keane:
And I think that’s something that people have a different view on, but you know, if you, if you believe that and you feel that human beings will on overall make more positive decisions than negative ones, then bringing people together through immigration and through travel is important. We will see together. And we don’t know, we are talking here in the end of January of 2022, you know, we’ll see in January, 2023, what has happened with the world has travel changed. Do we not travel as much as we used to? Is, is that an impact? And what does that mean to some of the things that, you know, we just talked about? Does it mean that those same fresh ideas happen in different ways? Does it mean we encourage more bad ideas? I mean, stressful time to be around on our planet, but a very interesting time.
David Keane:
And I just feel that every human must be part of doing what they can to help make, to help us to move in that positive direction. And I think technology is gonna give us better opportunities. We’re gonna have access to more data and more support and more knowledge than any human has ever had in the history of our planet. And I hope we make the best use of that.
Denzil Mohammed:
You’ve been affected by immigration policy I’ve been affected by immigration policy. And given what you’re talking about right now in this interview how do you see, or, or where, where do you see immigration policy in the us? You know, what would be to most benefit for every all for all Americans?
David Keane:
Well, this is another interesting question because for all Americans is a very, very interesting question that has to be answered, I think by politician, but, but at the end of the day, all I can share with you is certainly now before the pandemic, and again, this is a, a personal experience based in Australia.
David Keane:
We, we used the immigration programs of the Australian government extensively, where we found opportunities to bring folks in that could really make a difference to our business and our customers. It was a major focus now, of course, Australia, as many of the listeners here will, will realize had a very strict COVID policy. And that was completely stopped. We could do nothing. We could not continue that program, but, but look at the end of the day, I think policies that recognize the benefits that diversity can add to the world are important. Programs that support innovation in terms of making it possible to bring skills to bear. We, we don’t know. And it’s, again, it’s a question for a different podcast and a different speaker, but I think at the end of the day, the decisions that the countries make about, you know, how do you combine skilled versus unskilled?
David Keane:
These are, these are questions that are really interesting questions for our society, but, but I do believe that, yeah, with a world that is more remote and with looking here back in a year where we have less travel anyway, where we have less immigration, anyway – these are really interesting things that I think, again, people that are involved in these things you are doing, it’s really important what you’re doing. Cause we want everyone to understand this and help to create the best possible future. And so my views simply is yes, we need policies that support the needs of business. We need policies that make it appropriate, and we need policies as well that encourage certainly here in the us domestic skill development and the production of, the support of human beings who choose stem type careers to feel they’re supported in those careers.
David Keane:
I think that’s something that also we have to address. And these thing are complimentary in many ways.
Denzil Mohammed:
It it’s about the market. It’s about innovation. It’s about ideas. It’s about the economy. It’s, it’s not necessarily a political issue, right? It’s, it’s a human issue.
David Keane:
The, the only thing driving innovation is people it’s, it’s people, it’s a people business. That’s all it is. The company like BigTinCan. We have some great technology and we love our technology. We have a bunch of patents. That’s all great. But the end of the day, that’s nothing. It’s all about the people that work here. And those people need to be able to work together and exchange ideas together in person and remotely, they need to do it across cultural and political boundaries, and they need to be encouraged to realize that they can do it for themselves and their families. And that’s what we need for our future.
Denzil Mohammed:
So you’ve been living in the us for eight years now. UBoston has welcomed you. It has helped you thrive. It has helped you succeed. It has helped you,uspread all over the world. Uwhat are your thoughts on United States as a home for inherently entrepreneurial immigrants like yourself?
David Keane:
Oh, well, I can only give you my personal degree. We’ve been very welcomed. We’ve given tremendous opportunity. We could never have built the company that big 10 is today without the move to the us. We’ve all heard the story of the better mouse trap. I think a lot of the world culturally, when they see the better mouse trap, they’re skeptical that it’s really a better mouse trap. And I think the are many cultures that are like that. I think Australia is one of those where, you know, overall people are less inclined to try the better mouse trap.
David Keane:
They’re more inclined to stick with the mouse trap. They know, I think what does make the United States unique in my view today is the ability to embrace the better mouse trap. If the mouse trap is better, I’m gonna use it. I don’t care about who made it. I don’t care about where it came from. I don’t care about all this stuff. All I care about is just to catch mice better than the old one I was using before. And I think that is one of the things that is incredible about the United States of America. And I feel it is a core part of the reason why United States has been able to deliver so much innovation decade after decade, is that cultural attitude to trying something new.
Denzil Mohammed:
Willing to try out that better mouse trap. I couldn’t think of a better analogy. David Keane, thank you so much for joining us on Jobmakers. Thank you so much for having me, everyone. Thanks for joining us for today’s fascinating conversation and how immigration enriches America’s entrepreneurship and innovation got comments, questions, or guests that we should talk to email Denzil that’s D E N Z I L at job makerspodcast.org. And please leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another episode of Jobmakers.
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