Catholic schools are closing their doors all across America, leaving future generations with nowhere to turn for the high-quality academics and values-based education so many families are seeking. The number of students attending Catholic schools in the US fell from about 5.2 million in 1965 to around two million in 2008.
Pioneer Institute believes these schools are worth preserving. For over a decade, we have raised our voice in support of these excellent academic options, and tools such as tax credit scholarships that would enable more families to attend.
Pioneer has held public forums, published research on the benefits of Catholic education, on successful models such as Cristo Rey, and on policy changes that would stop the Massachusetts education department from depriving religious school students of special needs services and school nurses. The Institute has also convened key stakeholders, appeared in local and national press, filed amicus briefs, produced a feature a documentary film, and much more.
Hubwonk host Joe Selvaggi talks with transportation expert Ian Ollis about the findings of his new research paper, “Bus Rapid Transit: Costs and Benefits of a Transit Alternative,” which examines the benefits of building Bus Rapid Transit to serve communities looking for faster transit alternatives to a car.
Guest:
Ian Ollis is a former South African Member of Parliament having served two terms. He was the Shadow Minister of Transportation, Shadow Minister of Labor, and Shadow Minister Education during this time. In 2013 he drafted the Democratic Alliance national Transportation Policy. During his time as Member of Parliament Ian exposed a number of cases of corruption leading to major reforms. Previously Ian served as a City Councillor in Johannesburg, serving on the Transportation and City Planning Committees. He has a Masters Degree in Arts from the University of the Witwatersrand in South Africa. Ian earned a City Planning Masters degree in transportation at M.I.T and interned at Pioneer Institute as a Senior Research Analyst developing a transportation policy platform.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk I’m Joe Selvaggi.
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. As Boston and other cities emerge from the COVID 19 epidemic. Traffic congestion has returned as well. Studies made before the pandemic observe that highway congestion cost Boston commuters and additional 164 hours in their car each year, prompting many to seek faster alternatives. The MBTA offers rapid transit rail service into Boston, but the reach of its network is limited and new train lines are extremely expensive to build the MBT bus network reaches more communities, but as seen as a less attractive slower option owing to their cumbersome boarding process and traveling in the same congestion as cars, fortunately, a new form of transit is appearing on the horizon bus, rapid transit, or BRT. BRT is a concept that enables a bus to operate similar to a train building lanes and stations into the current built environment that reduce traffic and signal delays, and streamline boarding.
Joe Selvaggi:
This new conception of a bus could revolutionize Boston’s transit capabilities by bringing rapid transit to currently unserved communities and delivering an attractive alternative to cars at a cost that is far below building new train or light rail services. My guest today is Ian OIS, director of transportation planning at the Fredericksburg area, metropolitan planning organization, an author of the recently released pioneer Institute research paper, entitled bus, rapid transit costs and benefit of a transit alternative. Mr. Ollie’s research looks at the challenges of Boston’s master system and suggest that B RT can offer commuters a new cost effective addition to our transportation landscape. This paper offers insight on ways to build local stakeholder support for BRT, and then use that success to expand service more widely. When I return, I’ll be joined by transportation researcher, Ian O Okay. We’re back. This is hub won. I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m now joined by Ian Ollis, Director for Transportation Planning in the Fredericksburg Area Metropolitan Planning organization, and author of the recently released Pioneer Institute research paper, entitled “Bus Rapid Transit: Costs and Benefit of a Transit Alternative.” Welcome to Hubwonk, Ian.
Ian Ollis:
Thank you for having me I look forward to chatting with you.
Joe Selvaggi:
All right, before we get started, I’m sure at least one or two of our listeners will hear a little bit of an accent and wonder where you started life. You’re not a Bostonian. So give us a little bit of background on you.
Ian Ollis:
Sure. I was born and raised in South Africa, so actually I’m a fourth generation African and came to Boston in mid 2018 to go back to college. So I went back to educate myself a second time. I went to MIT and completed another degree there in transportation planning and then worked in Boston for Pioneer Institute for a while, and also for Transit Matters in Boston. So I spent some time working in Boston and I’ve recently taken up a position in Virginia doing transportation planning again.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. Like so many of us you came to Boston for school. So you say you’re now in Fredericksburg applying your knowledge that you learned at MIT what was it that you studied specifically at MIT, urban planning, but was there a specific focus on transportation?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, transportation planning. The degree is technically a masters in city and regional planning. But my course focus and my thesis were all on transportation planning. Looking specifically at things like mode shift, how do you convince people to take a different form of transportation than they used to? Why should they take a different form of transportation? What are the results of either option, if everybody buys a car, what does that look like on the roads? If everybody takes transit, what does that look like? So the shifts between different modes was what I looked at in my thesis and, and just transportation planning generally. So how do we plan for future roads? How do we plan future train lines? How do we plan a bus system? And what are the things that go into deciding which of those are the best options for a particular locality? So all that was part of my study.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. So you’re well suited for writing this paper. I think there’s a reason it reads so well. And so let’s start with that. Let’s talk about the bus rapid transit. But as a bit of background your analysis is done on the backdrop of the congestion in Boston. You cite some data at the start or the top of the paper talking about how bad Boston traffic was before the pandemic. You mentioned that it was the worst in America and among the top 10 worst in the world. So say more about that.
Ian Ollis:
Absolutely. So and several other organizations, Texas A and M university published these annual statistics on congestion in the United States and also around the world and Boston and the greater Metro area have frequently scored in the top 10 of worst places in the United States. And occasionally one of the worst places in the world for congestion, and they measure congestion by the delays on your trip. And also the amount of extra time that you spend in traffic and Boston frequently, or the greater Metro area, Boston frequently scores very badly on all of those metrics. The one year it was the worst in the United States, some years it’s the third worst or, or the fourth worst, but typically it’s always in the top five for that particular reason. And so it, it’s a major problem that you have to deal with in the Boston Metro area is, is how do you deal with this growing congestion?
Ian Ollis:
Because the population grows success, breed, success, breeds, congestion, right? So if your city is successful at attracting lots of new folks, you are gonna have increased congestion and you’re gonna have to find ways to deal with it. So this particular paper then says B R T bus, rapid transit is one of the possible solutions to congestion remembering that the it’s always a package. You, you, you need to do it multiple things simultaneously. And this paper proposes that bus rapid transit is one of the solutions that could really assist in taking care of that long term congestion problem that Boston has been having for decades.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yeah. I wanna put a finer point on that one. One statistic that was mentioned is because of the average Boston commuter spends an extra 164 hours getting to work that they would not where there no congestion, if we absolutely bake, if we bake that into a 40 hour week, that’s a month of work in traffic. So that’s a sobering reality. So I, I wanted to offer that as the backdrop for our conversation, because if we could, we would all like to spend a little less time in traffic. Now we’re gonna go deep into what public transit is all about. Again, you’re an expert in this field. Let’s define our terms because as you say bus rapid transit is one of many forms of rapid transit define for our listeners. Some of the other alternative, if I’m gonna get to work using mass transit, what are my alternatives?
Ian Ollis:
So you could use a subway train typically most metropolitan cities have a subway system in the larger cities. And that is a set of trains that run in tunnels underground in the Boston Metro area. You’ve got thet, the MBTA subway trains, the bread line, the green line, the orange line, the blue line, the, the green line effectively is, is in some cities, a different alternative because on the, when it’s above ground, it is a light rail system or a tram. And people use those, those terms interchangeably. So you could use a light rail or tra system. You could use subway tunnels with subway trains as you have in Boston or New York. You could have a regular bus. So the, the typical yellow MBTA, regular buses of are in on the road and often in regular traffic. And that we can have a discussion about that because those buses, if you don’t have special bus lanes or other facilities, the bus is gonna take just as long as the car will, and it doesn’t help because the bus also has to stop every, so to pick up and drop off folks. So it’s gonna take a long time a regular bus if you’ve got congestion and there’s no accommodations for that bus specifically, the bus is gonna be stuck behind you or in front of you in the traffic in a normal sense.
Joe Selvaggi:
Sure, sure. Okay. So you’ve, you’ve laid out the the framework you’ve got, I guess heavy rail, which is the commuter rail, the purple line. Then you’ve got subways which are, as you mentioned, all the different colored lines. And when the, the green line comes outta the ground, it becomes light rail. Again, it moves along with cars besides them, but, and interacts, I guess, with a congestion, but it has its own sort of space. And then last of all is, is the bus that you mention the yellow bus. And unfortunately it’s thrown in the same congestion that our cars are. So in its current form it, it suffers from some of the challenges that you would if you were to take your car. So there I think is a good place to jump off. So you, you mentioned bus rapid transit as something different from a bus. So you’ve got the yellow bus, you’ve got bus, rapid transit share with our listeners. What, how does a bus rapid transit system differ from a regular bus system?
Ian Ollis:
So there are four or five big differences around the world that they use to make something, a bus, rapid transit system. The first thing is that they have rapid boarding. So the idea is to try and make the floor of the bus, the same high as the floor of the bus stop. They call them bus stations so that you can push your wheelchair or your stroller straight into the bus without any stairs. You can walk straight into the bus without any stairs. And the floor is level that is added to, by, with a second piece of technology, which is off the bus fair collection. So the driver does not get involved with collecting your money fiddling with coins and change or a slot in the front of the bus, where you put your, your money in. The fare is collected off of the bus it’s did in the bus station or the bus stop itself so that you don’t have money having to change hands on the bus, because that takes time.
Ian Ollis:
So you, you imagine the queue of people climbing up the stairs into a bus, standing at the front, tapping their T card, or fiddling with coins and notes to try and pay the none of that happens on a full completed BRT system. You collect the money somewhere else. So that speeds up the process of boarding new people onto the bus and getting them off the bus. The big change is of course, that you try with a BRT system, a bus rapid transit system to have a dedicated bus lane preferably for the whole route. But in many cases, when you have to put a bus rapid transit system on an existing roadway with existing limitations, you have to alternate that with some dedicated bus lanes and some where the bus has to unfortunately still operate in the regular traffic.
Ian Ollis:
So it depends on how much land you’ve got available. If you have land available, it’s preferable to have the whole route, a completely dedicated bus lane. And, and, and these kinds of features together, the trip quick, you get on and off the bus, much quicker than a regular bus. You pay the fair somewhere else. You get on a level floor, the bus operates in a dedicated lane. And then in, in some cases they also have signal preference for the bus. So you arrive at the intersection, the bus is allowed to go few before the cars. So the bus lane, the light goes, the bus moves forward a few seconds later, the light goes again, and the cars move forward. So the bus can get in front of the queue in a sense. And all of that together means that the bus is quicker than your car, because it’s not stuck in traffic it’s in its own lane.
Ian Ollis:
The only thing in that lane is the bus in front of it. So the buses tend to move quicker like a train does because it eliminates the traffic. It eliminates the slow boarding and, and getting off the bus and, and as a much faster system. So that’s typically what a BRT is when you have to retrofit a city with BRT, you sometimes have to pick, and is those elements that you can afford, and that can actually be accommodated in the right of way of the roadway where you’re trying to put it in. So you can’t always have everything. And so they talk about a five star gold B R T, or a four star or three star, depending on which of those particular measures you can implement on a particular roadway.
Joe Selvaggi:
So this sounds again, you use the closest analogy there sounds like the green line in Brookline with tires instead of wheels. But even there, we haven’t chosen to make level boarding or stream the fair collection process. So it would seem to me that we should walk before we can run. Is there any planet, a way to help the the green line become, let’s say more rapid than it is now.
Ian Ollis:
So the pioneer Institute hasn’t put out a paper to, to deal with that particular thing, as far as I’m. But the MBTA has been looking at ways to speed up the green line. And so they’ve, they’ve looked at a couple of things to, to consolidate two stations into one to two green line stops into one, and they’re looking at the fair election system to try and eliminate having cash on, on the, on the train. But there have been local pressure groups that have been trying to convince the tea to still allow for the cash on, on the buses and, and train. So it, it’s a bit of a push and pull between the local community and certain groups, certain disabled people’s groups, and so on with the M B T a as to how much of that to do and how much not to do, but it’s a trade off.
Ian Ollis:
I mean, the public, essentially who, who express their views have a trade off, do we want to substantially faster without some of these measures like cash on the bus and train, or do you want halfway where you, you have some of the measures, but you don’t want all of them and, and are the public happy to, to have two stops or stations consolidated on the green line or not? If, if you have those, you’re gonna get quick FA the trip’s gonna be faster. You’re gonna get to work or to school or to the shops quicker, but if you still want all of the stops it takes longer to get there. And so all of these things are a, are a negotiation, I guess, with the commuter, the consumer and, and the operator.
Joe Selvaggi:
So it sounds like an ambitious as you say, there’s a lot of choices, a lot of trade offs step, step back a bit and say, okay, look, buses, that’s not a new technology. What you describe seems fairly intuitive and not highly technical as far as a solution goes. Is, is this concept of bus rapid transit used anywhere in the world historically let’s start with sort of outside the us, and then perhaps we can talk about if there’s examples within the us.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So in south America Mexico in Africa, the, the country I come from in South Africa has in, in I think it’s six now of the larger metropolitan areas, a bus rapid transit system Bogota in, in Columbia is the, is the, is the big case where, where they’ve implemented the full thing large amounts of people are moved on a bus, rapid trance system every day. Mexico city has been putting in some lines it’s, it’s used in Europe in some locations. So it it’s used on, on basically every continent. As I said, some people go for the full five star system with all of the bells and whistles. Other people choose the parts of it that they can accommodate. The typical situ situation in the us is that people do implement it, but they typically don’t go for all, all of the metrics they implement the portions that they can implement quickly.
Ian Ollis:
And don’t always take all of the bells and whistles. The, the, the ultimate B R T would have the buses run on dedicated lanes in the middle of the roadway. And there would be a bus station, a completely enclosed bus station in the middle of the roadway in the mid. And you would cross the road on a pedestrian crosswalk and a signalize one. And then the bus station or bus stop would be in the middle of the road. And that makes the buses even faster, the metrics of where you place the bus station have an effect on the speed as well. So I mean, that, that turns the bus into a train effectively because you have everything happening on a dedicated set of lanes in the middle of the road without any obstructions. And it, the bus becomes virtually a train.
Joe Selvaggi:
So when we talk about becoming virtually a train setting aside you know, how we, whether we have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 star version of it, have you compared the costs of let’s say from brand new building a, B R T versus building a, something like a green line equivalent, a, a light rail, is, is there any comparison if I want to you know, use this option a versus B?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So there are comparisons that we’ve done and that others have done between all the modes. So if you have a, a full heavy rail subway train, the B RT bus would be up to 70 times cheap to build and operate because it’s you don’t have to dig tunnels and put trains in tunnels. That’s a really expensive option. So the BT is up to 77, 0 times cheaper than, than having a train in a tunnel light rail is kind of the halfway station. Some of the costs are, are as my having a train. So when you look at the cost of laying the track for the purple line, the commuter rail system versus laying the track for a green line system, the cost of the track is, is fairly similar. The cost of the land. It depends on where the land is, how much it’s gonna cost you.
Ian Ollis:
If, if you, if you have to, to buy land the, the B T system is several times less expensive. If you have enough roadway space, because then you don’t typically have to buy much land and you don’t have to put rails down. You just have a Todd, a, a, an asphalt road surface and you just have a dedicated lane. So it’s just in, in the case of B R T, it depends how much land you have. If you don’t have enough space between on the right of way, you may have to purchase land, or you may have to take a sliver of land from, from disused land, either side of the roadway or something like that. But there’s less infrastructure cost. It’s, it’s quite a, a bit cheaper than putting down rails track to, to run a system.
Joe Selvaggi:
So your, your paper talks about several experiments we’ve had with B R T couple trials here in Massachusetts, I believe the paper talks about Arlington Everett, and then what outta town, Cambridge I’ve run past, or, or seen these big red strips on the, on the ground for the dedicated bus lanes. And it’s not intuitively obvious why that, you know, taking up a lane of traffic for a bus and leaving fewer for cars necessarily helps everyone. Let’s first let’s talk about how you chose or how those cities were chosen. Was it that the, the mayors of those cities wanted you know, something for their constituents, or was this sort of a top down academic exercise?
Ian Ollis:
So those particular local communities, and for example, the mayor of Everett wanted to, to have these pilot studies and the bar foundation offered some funding grants to set up a trial. And so these three particular communities took advantage of that funding were awarded the funding and set it up MBTA as a trial run to see how it would work and effectively it, they were really successful. The big question always is do you have to take a lane away from traffic or have you got space to add a lane to, to provide a lane for the bus and when you take a lane away or when you take all the parking away, it often upsets people. And so there have been examples in, in Boston, in the past where a particular plan was unveiled to put a B T system and the public reacted unhappily protests happened.
Ian Ollis:
And, and the thing was halted. The advantage these trials is that you can do it for a period and experiment and see what the results are. And the public seems to react a little less severely to, to that particular environment. They were very successful trial periods and the male Everett, I believe is super excited about rolling this out even, and having even further route to connect because Everett is a little isolated from the public transportation system. It doesn’t have a stop on the Ts subway lines, the orange line doesn’t have a stop close to areas in that, in that community. And people want to go to work at Kendall square, or they wanna go to work in down to, and how do they get there when the public transportation options are quite limited? So it’s a typical community where this sort of infrastructure would be very useful.
Ian Ollis:
And one of the things our paper calls for is an involvement with a local community. When you want to set up a, B R T system involve the local community, don’t implement it and wait for the ARTC cry, involve the community to, in a participation process where they can come to a meeting and hear all about the proposal and discuss the options and understand what’s involved and give their comments and give their feedback so that by the time you implement it, folks know what to expect and what not to expect. And it’s very good to do these trials, these test cases. And then if people like them, you can say, well, everybody seems to really like this, let’s do some more roots. It, it gets public buy-in and the paper calls for that saying, we really want people to be consulted and have buy-in, but we do think this is a good option to be implemented because it’s so much less expensive than the other options, and it has great environmental benefits.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you, you, you do categorically said these these trials will or success. I’m hoping, or I’m guessing that the success is measured by how much more quickly a, a a commuter can get to work than without it. Did you measure how much benefit a B RT was to let’s just use Everett as an example?
Ian Ollis:
So obviously we didn’t, as the pioneer Institute representatives go out and, and, and measure clock the bus and check how fast it was working, but certainly there was engagement by the MBTA with the local community. And they measured the speed at which the buses were able to get to the destinations. And, and really the buses were faster than regular buses and provided a much more efficient way for people to get to work. Lots of people use the buses. Another way you can measure efficiency is how many people actually choose to get onto the bus rather than take their car or take an Uber. And clearly people were using these buses. The buses were well subscribed. Many people rode the bus, so lots of people chose to use it. And so that’s a sign of success. And the time of travel was measured by the MBTA in terms of how long it took the bus to get to the destination. And, and that was seen as a success because it was a lot quicker than having a regular bus, but without the huge expense of having a subway tunnel that you have to dig,
Joe Selvaggi:
I enjoyed the part of your paper when you talked about not necessarily the benefits that were realized in Everett or Cambridge Watertown, but rather you talked about B R T in Cleveland, Ohio. I thought this was very interesting in that a lot happened in that can community. It was both to the revitalization of the businesses along that line, but also had a positive influence on even home prices and sort of the success of the city. Can you talk about that, those findings in the paper, and in a sense, how would you weave that into your case? If you were into a community like Everett to say, look this doesn’t just get you to Boston faster. It makes Everett a better place. Can, can you relate those stories?
Ian Ollis:
Absolutely. So this particular case you refer to in Cleveland, I mean, the, the results showed that the housing prices along the route went up, not down people of often worry about whether certain traffic is going to contribute to, to dropping their housing prices. We know already from research elsewhere that building a new modern train system pushes housing prices up, but people are not always sure with a bus, whether you achieve the same results. And in that particular case, the housing prices alongside the new BT system went up and that’s very good. It also provides congestion relief to that particular community which did help it got a lot of people to work faster. And so it’s a, it’s a prime example of where it really does work well. If you get the community buy-in, and that’s the key thing is you, you, you don’t wanna be implementing something that a local community is dead against because it won’t have those, those results, but that particular case was super successful.
Joe Selvaggi:
So, so if we have, you know, we, and we’ve talked about a lot about the success you know, the relative cost, the, the, the, this speedy commute and the revitalization of the community. So I’m going into a new community. You, you actually cite some failures of proposals of B R T. I think it was back in 2009 during the Patrick administration where they had wanted to build a, B R T on blue hill Ave. And there was a lot of pushback. Was that based on, let’s say ignorance about the benefits or the fact that it was implemented too quickly, that there wasn’t buy-in is, is this a you know, is this a case study in what not to do?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, I think we said in the paper that, you know, it, we, we, and, and the community involved realized afterwards that administration, the MBTA realized afterwards that the public wanna kick the tires on a new idea. They wanna discuss it. They wanna think about it. They wanna look at at how it works. And I think that particular one was implemented in too much of a rush. The, the community wasn’t consulted, they didn’t know what to expect. They just heard that this thing was gonna be done in their community without the details being understood. And so, really one of the thing, two, two things happen businesses often complain because they have this perception that if you put this BT system down, it’s gonna reduce their customer base, because you might have to remove a parking bays outside of their store. And so businesses often push back local communities often push back.
Ian Ollis:
If they think you’re gonna take a lane of traffic out of the road, or a, a lane available for their cars, and now their traffic’s gonna get worse. And so often people hear about the details without having a full understanding and an appreciation of what has happened elsewhere when these things have been implemented and rightfully they they’re upset. And, and so we are calling for that consultation to be done in Cleveland. You saw that businesses did actually do better after the implementation of the bus rapid transit system. They didn’t do worse. The same thing by the way, also happens with a, a bus lane. If you put in, sorry, a, a bike lane, if you put in a bike lanes in front of stores, the number of people who go and shop in those stores actually goes up, not down. So, so putting bicycle bicycle lanes actually helps businesses in the area, but people don’t always know these facts beforehand.
Ian Ollis:
And so it was very important when implementing these kinds of things to get buy-in from the local community, explain the project, allow people to ask questions and debate the issue. And you find then you get better responses from the public and from local businesses who feel that they’ve been consulted and that they understand more of what’s involved, and they understand particularly the results of what happened elsewhere, where a system like this was the proof is in the pudding. So once you’ve done it somewhere, you can say, Hey, look, this is what we did. It worked.
Joe Selvaggi:
That sounds good. So in a sense, get, buy in let people ruminate on the concept and then implement it gradually. And then gradually it’s embraced. I I’ve, I’ve tried, I just so far in our conversation, steer our conversation clear of the pandemic and COVID, we’ve done pretty well so far but we’re pretending that this hasn’t happened. And of course it has that affected the commutes, the work behavior of nearly everyone in our in our greater Boston community. You, you, you, in your paper, a graph showing the dramatic fall off immediately after I guess March, 2020 and then a return to all modes of transportation, cars are almost back where they were, we’re almost as congested as we were before the pandemic, which is remarkable. But of all the modes of transportation, the buses fell the least and return most quickly. What does that say about those people who use buses and I guess essentially will be likely to use the bus RA rapid transit as well.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, so the, across the country, not just in Boston the buses have seen the fastest return to normalcy. If you like the ridership has gone back to what it was pre COVID a lot quicker with buses than it has with trains. For example, commuter trains have remained still below the ridership levels they had before. COVID. so it, it, it also ties in with the the concept or the, the, the number of people who are essential workers, essential service workers. These folks don’t have lots of other options typically, and so they need to get to work and to get to work and wherever else they need to go, they typically don’t always have a car or two cars, family that are available to use, to, to get to work or to get to school. And typically use buses more frequently than say more middle class folks who have other options.
Ian Ollis:
So typically the service industry has a lot of folks who use buses and they have to get to work. And so their bus ridership has bounced back to relative normal normality far quicker than the trains. People who use commuter trains often are folks who have a car, have access to an automobile, and who are able to find another way to get there. And so those riders bounce back quite a bit slower than you would find with a bus with a BT bus. It’s kind of a mix. I think you would find essential service workers will, will use a B T system. But because it’s seen as faster and more reliable and more successful than a regular bus stuck in traffic, you find that other folks also tend to use it. So you see some other folks who are not essential service workers, who also jump on the B T bus because it’s modern and it’s faster will get you to your destination quicker than a regular bus, which is stuck behind all the cars.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes, I wouldn’t have thought of it that way, but I was going to make the point that you compare the, sort of the relative percentage of, of workers in service industries, that’s healthcare and, and retail and all these kind of things that is much higher percentage in places like Everett than it is saying Cambridge, where people perhaps are, or more in technology or, or academics. But what you’re saying is B R T actually seeks to, or offers an alternative to those people who do have choices those being cars, or, you know, even telecommuting, they, they can take this if it’s reliable and get them there faster. I also wanna point out in one piece in your paper that B R beyond being a, you know, faster, that the variance in, in the commuter commuting times goes down substantially. And I think that’s important as someone, I, I, you know, I, I love trains and, and buses. If I know my average commute is a half hour, but sometimes it’s an hour I wind up not using it because I’m not prepared to go to work and I’m not prepared to get to work a half hour early for all the other days. So I, I think highlight the, the reduction variance of commuting times offered by B RT.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So B, B R T is much more reliable and also quicker. And these two things go together because you’ve got a dedicated lane, you don’t have to wait for the traffic. So the B RT is, is particularly when it has a dedicated lane, we’ll go straight down that lane. And there isn’t even another bus immediately in front of it, cuz the bus that went 15, 20 minutes before the current one has already gone because it doesn’t have traffic in front of it. So these buses move rapidly down in these lanes and the two lanes of cars next door will be slowed down because of traffic because of congestion and they can’t move as quickly as the buses do. So typically that means also that they’re more reliable if there’s an traffic jam or an accident in the one car hits into another car in the lane, unless it spills over into the B R T lane.
Ian Ollis:
Typically the BT bus carries on moving fast and everybody else has gotta wait for this automobile accident to be cleared and all that kind of thing. So it tend be more reliable. And if you have a modern fleet of buses, then it’s even more reliable because they won’t break down or, or, or that type of thing. So the reliability is much higher and the speed is much higher than a regular bus. And so that, for that reason it appeals to people who have a choice who can choose to take their car or an Uber or a Lyft or their bicycle, or stay at home and telework. This provides a choice that is more satisfying to people who, for whom time is important.
Joe Selvaggi:
He, that I think we all fall in that category. So if, if we’ve done a successful job of talking about the benefits of, of bus, rapid transit, our listeners like to learn, but they also like to do, and they if they’ve been persuaded by your argument and the arguments in your paper what can they do? If they’re in a community that perhaps is underserved by rapid transit and certainly buses may not be, not be very rapid at all. What can they do to encourage the adoption of, of B R T in their community? And where can they go to, you know, learn more about just the, the whole concept in general?
Ian Ollis:
So obviously our paper you can read, there’s also much material online that people can read to just find out more about how BRT operates. There’s a BT center for excellence on the internet that you can look to the pioneer paper, but also you can go lobby your local city council, your local councilmen, or woman to investigate putting a new BT system in your community, obviously in, in the greater Boston area, the MBTA runs the system. So your city council or counties the board of supervisors would need to interact with the MBTA in order to create the new B R T system in your neighborhood. And the MBTA is involved in a number of, of, of these pilot projects and are also looking to develop more roots in the future. The silver line is portions of the silver line are a typical B RT system where you don’t have the buses of the silver line stuck in traffic that as a, B R T there are other portions of the silver line where they do get stuck in traffic. And that’s not really what we are aiming for. But that silver line, the portions that have a dedicated lane, those are examples of what can be done with the BT. It’s quite quick. If you take the silver line from south station to the airport, it’s, it’s many portions of that are on a dedicated lane, and it’s quite quick. You can see how fast it can move when you don’t have cars in front of you
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. And I think we’ll, we’ll leave the show with that. But again, I want to make the case that it matters, not just for people who ride the bus, but the people who are in traffic, every person who’s on that rapid bus, rapid transit is someone who’s not in his car in front of you on the highway. So this is an issue for all of us to embrace and encourage. So thank you very much for being on Hubwonk today, Ian.
Ian Ollis:
Sure. I’ve enjoyed it. It’s been fun and something that I think we’re all really interested in hearing more about because it’s a new thing, really, for many of us in the United States.
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. Thank you very much.
Ian Ollis:
Thank you.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute. If you enjoyed today’s episode, there are several ways to support hub long and pioneer Institute. It would be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to hub long on your iTunes podcast, catcher, if you wanna make it easier for others to find Hubwonk, it would be great. If you offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share Hubwonk with friends, if you have ideas for me or comments or suggestions about future episode topics, you’re welcome to email me at hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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Testimony submitted on February 4, 2022 in opposition to S. 2651, legislation that would impose price controls on one of Massachusetts most important economic sectors, biopharmaceuticals. This was submitted to the Massachusetts State Senate Committee on Ways and Means, Michael J. Rodrigues, Chair.
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This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-host Gerard Robinson and guest co-host Derrell Bradford talk with Virginia Walden Ford, education advocate and author of Voices, Choices, and Second Chances, and School Choice: A Legacy to Keep. She shares her experiences growing up and desegregating high schools in Little Rock, Arkansas in the mid-1960s, and the lessons she carried forward in her school choice advocacy in Washington, D.C. She describes how her role as a student, mother, and grandmother informed her leadership in the nation’s capital, and the steps it took to mobilize parents, work with politicians and policymakers, and successfully launch the city’s school voucher program. She offers insights on what school choice advocates need to do today to expand educational opportunity at a time of heightened partisanship. They also discuss what it was like working on her two books and 2019 film, Miss Virginia, based on her involvement with the civil rights movement and the fight for educational equality. Ms. Walden Ford concludes the interview with a reading from one of her books.
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Guest:
Virginia Walden Ford is one of America’s leading advocates for parent empowerment. As a student, a mother, an advocate, and a grandmother, she has spent her lifetime fighting to create new educational opportunities for children and families. A native of Little Rock, Arkansas, and the daughter of two public school educators, Virginia and her twin sister, Harrietta, were among the first 130 students chosen to desegregate Little Rock’s high schools in the mid-1960s. As a single mother, Ford helped mobilize thousands of parents in support of school choice, which culminated in Congressional passage of the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program in 2004 and its reauthorization in 2009. In 2008, the Alliance for School Choice honored her with the John T. Walton Champions for School Choice Award in recognition of her achievements. She is the author of the books, Voices, Choices, and Second Chances and School Choice: A Legacy to Keep. Virginia’s work inspired the 2019 film Miss Virginia, which is now available to view on over 1,000 platforms, including Apple TV, Amazon Prime Video, and Netflix.
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N.J. Governor to End School Mask Mandate in Move to ‘Normalcy’
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
[00:00:00] Gerard Robinson [GR]: Hello listeners. Welcome back to another wonderful week of The Learning Curve. As you know, we bring on wonderful guests every week to have conversations about education K-12 and higher ed, as well as conversations about literature, philosophy, the classics, politics, and other good subjects. You’re going to be joyous this week.
[00:00:59] [00:01:00] Why? Because Cara’s gone and who do we refer to? The real Derrell Bradford.
[00:01:09] GR: We want her to hear this because when I’m often replaced in the show, Derrell will come in and do a better job than I can, and they’ll bust on me. So this gives me opportunity to get back at Cara. But the Can Man! Good to have you.
[00:01:21] Derrell: Yeah, that was classic. It is delightful to be here. How are you doing?
[00:01:26] GR: well, man, now the weather’s better today in Charlottesville than it was for the past couple of weeks. So what is it like in your part of the woods?
[00:01:34] Derrell: I mean, it was. frosty up here to, to save, to say the least, but we got to we’re cresting a little bit.
[00:01:39] So some of the trees that feel as schizophrenia, we’ll see how it plays itself up.
[00:01:45] GR: Well, someone like you who’s grown up in the Northeast say is frosty though. That means something I still, although I’ve lived on the east coast and particularly in the south for the last couple of decades, I’m still a California boy at heart.
[00:01:57] And so when I see, automatically think that it’s [00:02:00] warm. I walk outside and the Hawk welcomes me and says, no, it is cold. Can you
[00:02:05] Derrell: believe you went with the throwback? I haven’t heard the cold called the Hawk in like a minute.
[00:02:10] GR: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You know, this is also black history month. And so the ability to be able to bring back things to space and time is what we often do.
[00:02:23] We’ll look, man. So glad to have you join me today to cohost. What’s your story?
[00:02:28] Derrell: mine was in the New York times. cause, uh, you know, I pay my taxes in New Jersey. Somebody pick on the region, titled New Jersey governor to end at school, a mask mandate and move to air quotes, normalcy. and, it’s about, the state’s governor, Phil Murphy, setting a timetable, ostensibly to lift his mass mandate, first week in March.
[00:02:51] So almost two years after. The pandemic started and just like, a couple of things, like one has been really [00:03:00] frustrating to me. It seems like New Jersey is a local control state with almost 600 school districts. So for the governor to lift his mask, man, Actually means it’s meaningless. It just means now there are 600 mandates, right.
[00:03:16] Of varying varieties that change based on what school district you’re in. I’m not taking a side, like for, or against a mandate. I’m taking a side for clarity and not acting like you’re doing something that would be a significant change. to K-12 education and the state given, you know, the last two years when what you’re really doing is punting it to the locals and letting them sort of fold under the weight of it.
[00:03:41] so that’s the first thing, the second thing, which is maybe hardening is, I think the last time, we talked Gerard, you know, it was right after the gubernatorial races in, , New Jersey and in Virginia. And there were lots of theories about, why. you had your outcome down there [00:04:00] and Y Murphy almost lost to a Republican challenger here in a state with a million more Democrats and Republicans, and that Bybee took with 60% of the vote and what Virginia and New Jersey have in common is that they are in the top 10, basically for having the schools closed the longest, , during the pandemic.
[00:04:19] And so maybe. Democrats has started to get the message on this. Like maybe they’re like, yeah, we, can’t keep overriding our authority and making normalcy something that we experienced, but it’s like significantly difficult for regular folks to get on board with. and if we keep doing that, there might be an electoral price, don’t know.
[00:04:39] hope that might be part of what the thinking.
[00:04:42] GR: New Jersey is a really fascinating state because most people. Aren’t aware of how many school systems you actually have. I mean, it’s a lot and it’s a heavy look control, state St here in Virginia, I used to, live in Jersey city and for a couple of years, I work with students in a [00:05:00] weekend program for students at high schools in Newark and Jersey city.
[00:05:04] And when I think about the politics that people often look through, women to try to figure out what to do, I think you’re right. This could be Look at, well, maybe we should think about it. one thing that comes to me, when any governor makes a decision like this, a have you had a conversation or your team with, the local health department experts?
[00:05:24] And the reason I say that is because prior to pandemic, COVID-19 a schools closing. Most people could probably name. His or her superintendent. He has a, her school board member. If you said who’s the health director or commissioner for your city county or township, most people would have no idea. Well, if you were to ask that question today, more people could answer that question now than they could even two years ago, because healthcare commissioners and experts in their teams, really have.
[00:05:56] On the ground work. We see that personally, here in Charlottesville, [00:06:00] lower Morrow county with our people. So that’s number one, number two, even if you’re looking at this through the lens of electoral politics, what does this say about the teachers and about the principals and the superintendents where they consult it, they may be mixed pro or con you know, we’ll figure that out over time, but you’ve got to make sure the frontline people who are delivering education to our students, I’ve got a voice in this and then third.
[00:06:23] What a families have to think. So I’m going to follow this , with much interest in, for those of you who did not read derails article after the election. Now you can tell you the publication, definitely one of the top 10 articles that I read about a post election analysis and what role the pandemic, but also what role families and politics, race played in it.
[00:06:44] So thank you so much for sharing the story and also thank you for your good work. So my story is a little further north than you. It’s about a Boston, and we know that the pioneer Institute, is, , the host for our show. The Boston superintendent, Brenda [00:07:00] Cassellius, has actually announced that she’s going to step down at the end of the academic year from being the superintendent of the school system.
[00:07:08] She joined in 2019 previous life. She was commissioner in Minnesota, doing her tenure there. She had a lot on her plate. COVID-19 is one thing. Number two was trying to close the achievement gap in the city. And then the third was the big push dealing with funding and making sure schools have what they need.
[00:07:27] Naturally. When you hear that a superintendent in Boston, is leading. Everyone’s going to ask why? Well, one of the things that she said upfront when she was, surrounded, , or accompanied with the Boston mayor, Bayer, Wu, and the Boston school committee chair, Jerry Robinson, she said, quote, nothing is pushing me out of the door.
[00:07:46] I’m still here for five months. I’ll still be here for five months and rolling up my sleeves. Getting this work done each and every day. So I’ve always said that one of the toughest jobs in education is being a superintendent [00:08:00] because you catch all the arrows and all the darts, but yet when praise is needed to go around equitably, uh, superintendents often don’t get it.
[00:08:09] I had a chance to work for Arlene Ackerman when she was superintendent of schools in DC and had a chance to see some of that firsthand. With superintendents I’ve worked with in a couple of states. So first and foremost, let me just say thank you for your commitment to the work as a superintendent, but there are some underlying questions that the article didn’t go into and maybe could, we know for a fact that there’s a conversation right now, taking place at the state level over whether or not Boston should go into.
[00:08:38] And as we know that Boston going back to the night early 1990s was one of the early school systems to be a part of the mayor or takeover model. the mayor decided through legislation, , had the opportunity to appoint members to the school board while it was so significant to a place like Boston is that Boston actually had elected school board members going back to [00:09:00] 1822.
[00:09:00] And so to make that shift was very , monumental. But Boston was a part of the conversation in New York city, where they had a marrow takeover. You also had Detroit and other cities. So is the receivership a hint that if we take it over, we’re likely going to appoint a new trustee Harbor master commissioner.
[00:09:20] They’ll come up with the appropriate term. So that could be one factor. Number two, Boston voters have decided to return. The city back to a locally elected a school board system. That could be a factor as well. When you’re an appointed, , city, superintendent, and you report directly to one person like the mayor, there’s a mayor and the school committee.
[00:09:43] There’s a lot of cache that comes along with an appointment process. When it reverts back to electoral politics, you have board members either elected by ward or elected at large or combination. It changes dynamic of accountability. Third, when you [00:10:00] have the possibility of a receivership, it also raises the question of, or what does that mean for accountability?
[00:10:05] What will it mean for funding? Will it mean now that I have, , a school board? Yes. Possibly still a mayor. Yes. But now I have a third rail and that’s the state. And there are a number of dynamics that go along with. local relations, you know, derail you’re in New Jersey, New Jersey was one of the early leaders and school takeovers going back to Jersey city in 1989.
[00:10:26] Then you had Newark even before then. you had, challenges and Trenton. So, , this is going to be both a challenge for Boston, because you now have to. And we basically have to find a new superintendent. I think the Boston superintendency is one of the most coveted positions in the country. it’s a school system in a city and in a state that’s considered one of the smartest in the country based upon the number of people, 25 and older who have a bachelor’s degree.
[00:10:52] And yet you have. Untold gaps by class by race, zip code. So for someone who’s a [00:11:00] reformer, this is an opportunity given the fact that they hire someone who was a former state chief, here’s an opportunity either for a sitting state chief or a former state chief to take her or his name. About state to local government and bring it to Massachusetts, including people who are already in the state who were former state chiefs of secretaries.
[00:11:20] But third, this is also an opportunity for all parties, local state, and the philanthropic community. To say that if we want to reimagine what Boston public schools can look like post pandemic with a whole lot of money from cares, what could we do? So I want to wish her. but also one to watch this with great interest in.
[00:11:41] can I
[00:11:41] Derrell: jump on that real quick? Absolutely. So a couple quick things, I absolutely agree with 0.3, that this is, that. I just reject the entire discussion about return to normalcy, especially in any quasi large or very large urban school district, given the amount of money that is in play from [00:12:00] cares other COVID release packages.
[00:12:02] and knowing that without a pandemic. In this nation, only 20% of black fourth graders are reading at or above proficient on the Nate. Right. So absolutely think this is the moment to, fledge the school system of the future. And I hope whoever the next person is there. thinks that too, just one other it’s one and a half interesting things up.
[00:12:23] So like you said, you get a Jersey city Patterson Camden at one point. new work obviously. And, we’re all, you know, all places would stay takeover. but to varying degrees of, efficacy, but really like I can remember when bill de Blasio took over in New York after what many would.
[00:12:40] describe as a stellar tenure and partnership, , between Joel Klein and Mike Bloomberg. And I went up , , to Albany and some state Senator who I could tell disliked everything about me, wanted to know why I was there because everybody knew that the mayor, bill de Blasio was not a friend charters or anything [00:13:00] worthwhile.
[00:13:01] and I had to paraphrase Winston Churchill. I was like, you know, mayor all control is the worst form of governance, except for all the other ones. I do think that one of the things that people need to continue to, analyze is that like, mayoral control is as good or as bad as the mayor.
[00:13:20] Right. so that sort of like an M and a and important thing, but regardless of who’s in control, Families need leverage. I think even in charter world, you’re seeing sort of like some people that are luminaries of the past two decades go on and do other things. Right. And they leave huge vacuums in institutions that we knew and understood, and that families felt pretty familiar with.
[00:13:44] And now they don’t know. And so it’s like, what optionality Do we give them if there’s a smooth transition in Boston, like more. if it turns into a political feeding Fest, which suppose is also possible, I hope there’s some options on the table for families so they can do what’s right.[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] GR: And so glad to hear you talk about families because you and I have been involved in this work, you know, over two decades at different levels. And we really know that families really could care less about the political fighting. They could care less who’s on the right and the left, give their children opportunities to make decisions for themselves about what.
[00:14:21] Left right. And the middle and the pandemic expose what we’ve seen for years. Just not only issues of poverty, but true beliefs in some adopts worldview that these kids just can’t. And so this is really the opportunity for Boston and really be light on the shining hill. And since you mentioned, Churchill are mentioned another philosopher.
[00:14:45] Mike Tyson once says everyone has a plan until you get hit in the mouth and COVID hit all of us in the mouth. And we thought we had a plan. Well, for the first time in decades, Won’t be the reason we can’t move with some very [00:15:00] interesting ideas. It’s really going to be political will imagination and the ability to have the courage, to think unconventionally, hopefully close to that in Boston and to REL next, we’re going to have an opportunity to speak to our guests of the week, Virginia Walden Ford.
[00:15:18] the one who we learn more about, in a movie. Miss Virginia. We know her well, but I look forward to the rest of our listeners. Get to know her even better. We’ll be back.[00:16:00]
[00:16:43] .
[00:16:43]
[00:16:43] Derrell: , So I’m delighted , to introduce Virginia Walden Ford. I’m going to read her bio, but I should probably just call her, like mother of modern school choice advocacy, because I know that she’s been like a mom to me and I consider.
[00:16:59] her one of the people I’ve always looked up to and learned from. So it’s a personal and professional privilege to have you on today, Virginia, it’s all true. So, Virginia is one of America’s leading advocates for parent empowerment.
[00:17:18] She’s a student, a mother and advocate, and a grandmother. She spent her lifetime fighting to create new educational opportunities for children and families. I native of Little Rock, Arkansas and the daughter of two public school educators, Virginia, and her twin , sister Harrietta were among the first 130 students to de-segregate Little Rock’s high school in the mid 1960s. Then as a single mother, Virginia helped mobilize thousands of parents and supported school choice, which culminated in congressional passage of the DC opportunity scholarship program in 2004 and its reauthorization in 2009 in 2008, the Alliance for School Choice honored her with the John [00:18:00] T.
[00:18:00] Walton champions for choice, award, and recognition of her achievements. She is the author of the books, voices choices, and second chances. And school choice, a legacy to keep, Virginia’s work inspired. The 2019, it pops up this film, miss Virginia, which is now available to view on over 1000 platforms, including apple TV, Amazon prime, video, and Netflix.
[00:18:26] And it is a very good movie. again, Virginia, I am delighted to have a chance
[00:18:31] GR: to talk
[00:18:31] Virginia: to you today. Thank you, Derrell. I am delighted to be here. You and Gerard of course are two of my favorite people in the world. So this was easy,
[00:18:41] Derrell: yeah. And that was like, don’t let that get out. So you’ve lived, I mean, uh, I’m understating it, you’ve lived a remarkable and heroic life. but , advocates, families, politicians, whatever, all, agree on this. from growing up in little rock Arkansas and desegregating the high schools there [00:19:00] deleting school choice efforts in Washington, DC and inspiring people across the country.
[00:19:04] would you share with our listeners what it was like to be in little rock in the mid 1960s? And the last one she carried for with you and your school choice advocates.
[00:19:14] Virginia: I had, the Little Rock Nine desegregated central in 1957, but between that time and when I went in the school, black kids went back to black schools and the schools did not continue a strong desegregation process.
[00:19:30] So in, when I got ready to go in high school in the sixties, we were told that we were going to be the group. We were going to take the big group of kids. And I didn’t want to go. I know I don’t want to go. I want to go to the blouse black high school follow my oldest sister, but my dad said to me, I was 14, you said you have a responsibility to go to central, to do well, to take [00:20:00] advantage of everything that school has to offer you.
[00:20:03] And you know why little girl he said, because you have two younger siblings and how are they going to look at you? If you don’t have the courage to do this. And even at 14, that just stayed with me. It stays with me today. And, even though it was tough and, , there were only about 300 black kids at a school that had over 2000 students and sometime we went visible and sometimes we had to really struggle to get our voices heard.
[00:20:36] I’d always remember. I had two little sisters at home and, I had to do well. So, , it’s that the tone, if you will, of my entire life, my parents were teachers. My father was the first black sister superintendent, a little rock school district for personnel. My mother was one of four teachers that integrated white schools here in little rock.
[00:20:59] [00:21:00] So I had these wonderful role models. I’ve just looked up to and it made us strong. They always told us that I laughed should be one of service that no matter what we do in our lives always serve your community. And that’s what we did, but it was rough. I mean, we’d go to school. It was clear. People didn’t want us there.
[00:21:21] Sometimes teachers wouldn’t call on us. , the black students would meet at the end of the day to walk home together. So we wouldn’t get booked. it was hard. It was hard. But when we graduated from central, we graduated with such incredible pride. we got through it, we did it, and it really helped us in our choices to go to college.
[00:21:46] And, this group went to college and many of us, I wasn’t first celebration, but many of my classmates were first generation college bound So it was, tough, but [00:22:00]
[00:22:01] Derrell: obviously as a student, like you just talked about, a mom, a grandmother, you have been a champion for greater educational opportunity.
[00:22:09] Can you talk specifically about being a mother and advocating for your own children in DC and the barriers she faced there as you were trying to lead and sort of like organize parents in favor of school choice in the
[00:22:23] Virginia: district, I can’t, I have three children Michael Myesha, William.
[00:22:29] My two older kids were really academically, well, every parent says this, but academically gifted and they were easy as long as I was, they knew I was by their side. Then they did their homework and they worked hard as they, made their way, they found role models. They found, we found programs that would benefit them, but it was still hard, but it was, it could be done, by the time my youngest child, women to middle [00:23:00] school, I started seeing changes in the traditional public school system and how they were receiving kids and how kids were doing.
[00:23:08] I lived in a community that was tough. It was pretty tough. a lot of drug problems, a lot of crime, you know, and additionally, there were just numbers and numbers of single mothers that were trying to make it. And even though we try to help each other, it was hard. but I knew as I watched my youngest child hit the streets and I watched the drug dealers.
[00:23:33] For him and buy him things. I knew that something needed to be done. Didn’t know what to do, didn’t know how to do it, but I did know that I wasn’t going to allow my 13, 14 year old child to be pulled into the streets that the district and become just another. Oh, boy, that was a statistic he’s in jail, dead or string out or whatever.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] And, it’s really interesting because I was the behind the scenes mother drought, and I know people obviously they’re right, but I was, was not a speaker. I was not that person. That was the president of the, anything. I would take the cupcakes up there out. Have little parties for the kids, but I wasn’t, aggressive.
[00:24:22] I was a bit of an introvert, but all that said, when I looked at my youngest child and I saw him not able to survive in what the society was, offering him at the time. I had to learn how to use my voice. It was terrifying for me to stand in front of people. at that point we started going to PTA means education, any kind of education meeting.
[00:24:49] We started the Tinder and I had to say something because we were all sitting there watching our two. And that’s kind of how I got into it, talking to [00:25:00] other parents in the neighborhood. We leave that we had to fight for our kids. And don’t know, somehow I got elected leader. I figured that when I, yeah, but, you speak on our behalf and, we’ll be there with you.
[00:25:13] We’ll stay as shoulder to shoulder with you, Virginia, but we need you to be the person it speaks. I had to learn how to do it. I had to learn how to open my mouth and tell people how I felt. And then as we began to talk to people and talk to local elected officials, most of the time, just us or we talk to educators.
[00:25:36] didn’t want to deal with us. So we talked to talk to people in the community and said, oh, y’all do this for a while. And then you’ll back off. Who cares? What happened to these kids? after we stopped that happened, it became clear that we had. And, uh, we had soldiers, and I used to tell the parents all the time, don’t get confused.
[00:25:57] We are soldiers and the more [00:26:00] we talked and the more we visited with people, and the more often that people dismissed them, the stronger we got the tougher. And by the time I started talking to members of Congress, we would talk, we thought we knew something and we would add to it. we knew a little bit and we keep adding people to it.
[00:26:21] And at one point we were out in the community and parents, primarily low income black and Hispanic parents would say, here comes the educational.
[00:26:36] I thought that’s great because their recognizing me as somebody that they could work with. You know, I mean, too many people go into poor communities are safe. We want to help them. And then they never come back or they want too much from them. I just wanted to stand shoulder to shoulder with them and help their children.
[00:26:56] And so we built army. We did it. [00:27:00] DOR how’s that house barbershop, that barbershop, that community center back community solar, we built an army. So
[00:27:09] Derrell: you have one more for me, and then I’m going to let Gerard chime in. And I know he’s going to say he likes you as much as I do, but he’ll be lying. Cause he can’t.
[00:27:23] you’ve received national attention for being among the prime movers with the DC voucher program. Would you discuss the steps that took to mobilize DC parents working with policy makers, politicians that successfully getting congressional support? I know it’s a little bit of what you just talked about, but can you like dig in a tiny bit more for the
[00:27:43] Virginia: list?
[00:27:44] I will draw, one of the things about it is once we have started, and once we built this group of people, we didn’t know where to go with us. And so at that point we found out that there were national groups, they assi, it towards Freeman foundation or [00:28:00] others who were looking for parents, they could stay in.
[00:28:06] They had wonderful ideas and wonderful hopes and dreams. They were, , talking about policy and all this stuff, but what they didn’t have was the pair people that will be in the beneficiaries of anything they were trying to, that would be the beneficiaries. And so I believe in coalitions, I really do don’t know where it came from, but I do, I believe that you got to align yourself with people that believe as you.
[00:28:32] And so we did, we talked to, supporters all over the country, actually, DC is the fishbowl. So once a group of parents were engaged and involved in getting the word out that this was something they wanted, it was not difficult to , talk to people. so we talked to all of those groups and then.
[00:28:55] Uh, member the card was, which is kind of a funny story. I have, we’ve got decided with [00:29:00] members of Congress. We got a call from a member of Congress. Jeff, like actually, and he called and said, I’m thinking about poses scholarship program for DC. And I said, okay. And he said, I heard that you have a group of parents that understand what this is all about now.
[00:29:19] And yeah, he said, you think you can breathe five or six? Our teen parents to stand behind me while I made this announcement about this program. And I said, absolutely hung the phone up and was not sure how we were going to do this. getting people up on Capitol hill. Most of them that never been there before at nine o’clock in the morning, but we put a call out to the parents.
[00:29:43] We had been working on. and then prayed. And in that morning, the next morning at nine o’clock, there were a hundred parents there and I think it was right at that moment that members of Congress who had some interest in providing a [00:30:00] scholarship program or a voucher program for DC took a seriously, you know, when a hundred parents.
[00:30:07] So. And nine o’clock in the morning to say we want something different for our children. We want something better for our children and this man. Who we didn’t know, said that he could do this. And at that point, other members of Congress contacted us, but we provided the hill. we put on our little DC parents for school choice t-shirts and we went to them.
[00:30:30] It wasn’t a house, we made ourselves clean but I think it was such a collaborative effort. and that made a big difference for us when you are trying to make a difference in the world to change something or you’re on a quest or whatever. When you notice that there are people that believe in you, that support you, really helps move it along.
[00:30:53] Hey,
[00:30:54] GR: Virginia. Good to hear your voice.
[00:30:55] Virginia: I heard you
[00:30:58] GR: doing well happy new year, [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Virginia: happy new year today. So Virginia,
[00:31:03] GR: let’s talk about the days you just mentioned these days. There’s a lack of bipartisan consensus on K-12 education policy while DC seems as divided ever. Could you talk about your experience with DC politicians and what school choice advocates need to do today to build on the work?
[00:31:25] Virginia: we’ve known each other a lot of time, but been through a lot together. And I know we’re talking about, one of the first years that we were really fighting hard and really, really involved. I had the opportunity to put together a dinner with support from wonderful people and members of Congress, to bring it was 500 parents to a historically black church in DC.
[00:31:49] to talk about school choice, to talk about, what they needed, what they wanted. And I think that was one of the biggest starts to get in peoples to [00:32:00] begin to believe in us. And, there was several members of Congress, this boat, there was several heads of school choice organizations.
[00:32:07] There were lots of supporters, but the beauty, there was 500 parents and kids. and it was amazing. And so I think those kind of things, when people begin to think, you care about them enough to bring them together and to talk to them, with respect and to hear what they have to say, you can build mountains.
[00:32:31] GR: Absolutely. You can deal with mountains. Here’s a up question. You’ve written two books. Talk to us about the process and why you decided.
[00:32:39] Virginia: first book, voices choices, the second chances. I wrote, because I wanted to leave the information for other parents on how we did it. I mean, the fact of the matter is we built an army and we’re going, but we had to sit down and think about how did we get.
[00:32:57] Yeah, we had a lot of wonderful people [00:33:00] supporting us, but we realized at that time there were lots and lots of parents around the countries that this seemed to be, it seemed too much. and so they, weren’t going to be willing to step out there and do that. So I wrote the first book, which I love and, it’s kind of a, step-by-step how you get.
[00:33:23] And it’s got antidote on things that we did parents around the country had told me they have so much fun reading that as they’re building their earnings. so that was really a great book, but I wanted the world to know how strong the parents were and how hard they fought. And in that was a way , of getting that out, because I think it’s important for parents to be encouraged, but they also need to know how to do this. with. Just came out in 2019 actually [00:34:00] after the movie came out, I wrote as a. pardon to the movie, you know, movies are beautiful and I love this. I’m very proud of this Virginia.
[00:34:10] And so are the parents that I’ve worked with through the years, it tells a great story of a parent activist and, being courageous, all parents and which I love. but every time I went out with the movie to speak, somebody would say, tell us more of what happened.
[00:34:30] You know, tell us a little bit more. Can you name names? And of course I would say no, but we decided in the process of making a movie. Yeah. Then we should , write a book about it. And, another question that people always ask me is how did you get into this? And, and what gives you your inspiration?
[00:34:50] And, my family gives me my inspiration. My great grandfather was. Who bought his family out of slavery into freedom and, , [00:35:00] oh one first bakery owned by a black man in little rock, Arkansas. Hi. You know, I started with this incredible family As many of us have, and we’ve been lucky enough to be able to trace our ancestry, so I wanted to write something and I knew I was getting older and I didn’t know how much longer I was going to be out there fighting for anything.
[00:35:24] And I wanted to leave something to parents and kids and Mackie. And my nieces and nephews, that told not only a history of family whose whole purpose in life was to serve communities. My great-grandfather started church in little rock, the still exist to this day. I wanted to write that part, which is the legacy part.
[00:35:52] but I also wanted to tell a little bit more about the fight, and even though accident name everybody’s that supported us, I [00:36:00] was able to name a few people that supported us And this is a great picture of us. Gerard went to the department of education in the book. I wanted people to see that, I mean, we were soldiers, where are we not?
[00:36:16] And, you and me and Howard and Kevin, I was the only girl. And, , it’s been an amazing journey. So I wrote the second book to, recognize. And to thank all of those people who have been by my side for 20 years. And you’re
[00:36:33] GR: telling them this story during black history month and talked about your grandfather being the slave African school has been so important to us, from the beginning.
[00:36:45] So thank you for telling that here’s the last question. There is a Virginia and a Virgil in Charlottesville, Virginia and lake Charles, Louisiana, and Los Angeles in Minneapolis. Every community has a Virginia and a [00:37:00] Virgil. What do you say to them as they think about taking on this challenge for their children, knowing what you know today,
[00:37:08] Virginia: I’m so glad you said that.
[00:37:09] Cause I say it all the time. I was not. The only one doing this. So he asked me during that time, there were thousands that were around the country that were doing it, that were leading efforts to get people to speak up on behalf of their children and the fight for the children. And as similarly, nowadays, when I’m out and about, and I’m talking to parents and you know, it’s been amazing because during the pandemic people have called me and written me and found me on Facebook or somehow contacted.
[00:37:40] And what I say to them is be strong, stand strong, use your voice to stand up for your children. And I have been so delighted to see so many of them that are doing it virtually, and now many getting out. And so I say all tolerate parents, believe that you can do this [00:38:00] believe, then stand strong, use your voice to speak up.
[00:38:03] You have every week. To speak out on behalf of your children and the men and women that are out there doing that. Parents, aunts, uncles, grandmas, supporters, those are the people that I say, you know, believe my motto has always been hope, love, and dignity. Always. I always said that. And that’s what I say to people.
[00:38:24] Now, hold your head up. Don’t let anybody turn you around. That’s key. And just to say, Don’t let anybody turn you around. I learned that I couldn’t do what I set my heart to do, and nobody could have told me 20 years ago that we would even be having this conversation. And there’s so many incredible things that , happened on my life journey.
[00:38:49] I would say on you. And I’ll probably be raising my three kids with DC and they’d be okay. They’d be grown now. I was privileged to fight onset all the soldiers that have, fought for children [00:39:00] over the years and continue to fight. That’s what I tell them. You know, it’s funny because I never thought of myself this way, but I become that all grandma or auntie, you know, people call and say, can you give me some advice?
[00:39:16] Can you, , , Uplift our group. Can you say something that sparks some energy and I relished that role. I love it. I mean, I, hope that I will continue for as long as I’m able to be that, to this, parents and kids, you know, because I will never stop as long as I’m able to. So like taking on the new role as somebody who.
[00:39:41] GR: We’ll share from your book, a passage to share with us the kind of wisdom you’re talking about before we
[00:39:47] Virginia: head out, I am okay. I had to reread the book and I cried all morning, but this is one thing I want to share. , this from school choice, a [00:40:00] legacy to tape format on chill. I would have done anything to give them opportunities in life, the same opportunities my parents and ancestors has struggled to give up family.
[00:40:16] When I saw invested, I fought against it just like momma and daddy had done decades before. When I saw doors closed to me or to others because of our race or income. I joined with other parents to open those doors and encouraged children to run through them and seize opportunity. And that is from school legacy.
[00:40:46] GR: Well, you’ve had a lot of moms and dads crying at night for excitement, because what you’ve done is to help open up the doors of opportunity in so many cities, in addition to DC. but there are also people who are going to read your books and watch miss [00:41:00] Virginia, and also cry because they said, well, She showed us the way, if she can do it, then we can do it.
[00:41:06] So on behalf of everyone here at, the learning curve and all the people who’ve benefited from your wisdom and your sacrifices, and we have to admit the sacrifices because there’s things you sacrifice personally, professionally and financially that we’ll never know about to get us here. So we want to thank you for your work and know you always have friends here at the learning curve.
[00:41:27] Virginia: Oh, thank you all so much for having me. This has been a pleasure, again, to my favorite people on the planet and, call me anytime, but it has been my privilege to go on this journey.
[00:41:39] GR: Thanks. Take care.
[00:41:41] GR: [00:42:00] Well, we’re now going to go to our Tweet of the week and it looks like we’re staying on the east coast. So this is from Philadelphia schools of February six. It says that the ground. Who are in CTE and S career technical education. We are offering the opportunity for you to earn an industry [00:43:00] recognized certification that may not have been obtained due to COVID-19 closures, read more below.
[00:43:06] And of course, they go into the story for students in Philadelphia. We’ve talked about your system, a number of times on the show. Cara and I have identified some of the great things that Philadelphia was doing. Also some of the challenges they are giving you an opportunity to focus on CTE, again, career technical education for thousands of students.
[00:43:25] This can be an opportunity into middle-class opportunities, and it also will give you an opportunity to make money and to do some things right after high school. So glad to see Philadelphia doing that in a hope families in the city, join that. Next week’s guest is Mark Bauerlein, from Emory University.
[00:43:43] He has got a very interesting title, somewhat say provocative, the title, The Dumbest Generation. I’ll leave it at that. Well, Derrell as usual. It’s always good to, break bread with you, , in different ways. And so glad you’re involved with the work with 50 CAN. Let us know what we can do here on the learning curve to support you, support the organization and to support the families that you consider to be important.
[00:44:07] Derrell: Always, sir, as always thank you for having me.
[00:44:10] GR: All right. Take care.
Related Posts:
In Massachusetts, the Know-Nothing amendments prevent more than 100,000 urban families with children in chronically underperforming school districts from receiving scholarship vouchers that would allow them access to additional educational alternatives. These legal barriers, also known as Blaine amendments, restrict government funding from flowing to religiously affiliated organizations in nearly 40 states and are a violation of the first and fourteenth amendments.
The U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case this year, Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue, that could end these amendments. In 2018, Pioneer produced a 30-minute documentary on the impact of the Blaine amendments on families in Massachusetts, Georgia, and Michigan.
“She’s a good girl. She helps me a lot. She has big, big dreams. I don’t have the money, but she has big dreams. I hope she’s going to get everything, but she works so hard. She works so hard in school.”
“Our family is needing to make some really big sacrifices because we believe this is important, and so, we’re basically going to do whatever it takes… Sometimes we look at each other and go ‘I don’t know if I can do it again another month…’”
“A lot of the families have to sacrifice and work multiple jobs… And just scraping together enough money to just make tuition, just the basics.”
“It is discriminatory, that parents who want to choose an alternative to public school for their children, would not in any way receive any compensation for that, whether it be tax credit, whether it be a voucher…”
In the 1840s, nativist movement leaders formed official political parties and local chapters of the national Native American Party (later the American Party), although they continued to be commonly known as the Know-Nothing Party. Politicians sought to insert provisions into state constitutions against Catholics who refused to renounce the pope. The Know-Nothing movement brought bigotry and hatred to a new level of violence and organization.
The party’s legacy endured in the post-Civil War era, with laws and constitutional amendments it supported, still today severely limiting parents’ educational choices. A federal constitutional amendment was proposed by Speaker of the House James Blaine prohibiting money raised by taxation in any State to be under the control of any religious sect; nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided between religious sects or denominations. These were then named the Blaine Amendments of 1875.
in recent decades, often in response to challenges to school choice programs, the U.S. Supreme Court has demonstrated great interest in examining the issues of educational alternatives and attempts limit parental options. Massachusetts plays a key role in this debate. The Bay State was a key center of the Know-Nothing movement and has the oldest version of Anti-Aid Amendments in the nation, as well as a second such amendment approved in 1917. Two-fifths of Massachusetts residents are Catholic, and its Catholic schools outperform the state’s public schools, which are the best in the nation.
Help families like the Costons in Michigan to end the bigoted Blaine amendments in their state that are blocking tuition scholarships and other types of financial support that would make it possible for families to send their children to high-quality schools that are best suited for their children.
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Hubwonk host Joe Selvaggi talks with transportation expert Ian Ollis about the findings of his new research paper, “Bus Rapid Transit: Costs and Benefits of a Transit Alternative,” which examines the benefits of building Bus Rapid Transit to serve communities looking for faster transit alternatives to a car.
Guest:
Ian Ollis is a former South African Member of Parliament having served two terms. He was the Shadow Minister of Transportation, Shadow Minister of Labor, and Shadow Minister Education during this time. In 2013 he drafted the Democratic Alliance national Transportation Policy. During his time as Member of Parliament Ian exposed a number of cases of corruption leading to major reforms. Previously Ian served as a City Councillor in Johannesburg, serving on the Transportation and City Planning Committees. He has a Masters Degree in Arts from the University of the Witwatersrand in South Africa. Ian earned a City Planning Masters degree in transportation at M.I.T and interned at Pioneer Institute as a Senior Research Analyst developing a transportation policy platform.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk I’m Joe Selvaggi.
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. As Boston and other cities emerge from the COVID 19 epidemic. Traffic congestion has returned as well. Studies made before the pandemic observe that highway congestion cost Boston commuters and additional 164 hours in their car each year, prompting many to seek faster alternatives. The MBTA offers rapid transit rail service into Boston, but the reach of its network is limited and new train lines are extremely expensive to build the MBT bus network reaches more communities, but as seen as a less attractive slower option owing to their cumbersome boarding process and traveling in the same congestion as cars, fortunately, a new form of transit is appearing on the horizon bus, rapid transit, or BRT. BRT is a concept that enables a bus to operate similar to a train building lanes and stations into the current built environment that reduce traffic and signal delays, and streamline boarding.
Joe Selvaggi:
This new conception of a bus could revolutionize Boston’s transit capabilities by bringing rapid transit to currently unserved communities and delivering an attractive alternative to cars at a cost that is far below building new train or light rail services. My guest today is Ian OIS, director of transportation planning at the Fredericksburg area, metropolitan planning organization, an author of the recently released pioneer Institute research paper, entitled bus, rapid transit costs and benefit of a transit alternative. Mr. Ollie’s research looks at the challenges of Boston’s master system and suggest that B RT can offer commuters a new cost effective addition to our transportation landscape. This paper offers insight on ways to build local stakeholder support for BRT, and then use that success to expand service more widely. When I return, I’ll be joined by transportation researcher, Ian O Okay. We’re back. This is hub won. I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m now joined by Ian Ollis, Director for Transportation Planning in the Fredericksburg Area Metropolitan Planning organization, and author of the recently released Pioneer Institute research paper, entitled “Bus Rapid Transit: Costs and Benefit of a Transit Alternative.” Welcome to Hubwonk, Ian.
Ian Ollis:
Thank you for having me I look forward to chatting with you.
Joe Selvaggi:
All right, before we get started, I’m sure at least one or two of our listeners will hear a little bit of an accent and wonder where you started life. You’re not a Bostonian. So give us a little bit of background on you.
Ian Ollis:
Sure. I was born and raised in South Africa, so actually I’m a fourth generation African and came to Boston in mid 2018 to go back to college. So I went back to educate myself a second time. I went to MIT and completed another degree there in transportation planning and then worked in Boston for Pioneer Institute for a while, and also for Transit Matters in Boston. So I spent some time working in Boston and I’ve recently taken up a position in Virginia doing transportation planning again.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. Like so many of us you came to Boston for school. So you say you’re now in Fredericksburg applying your knowledge that you learned at MIT what was it that you studied specifically at MIT, urban planning, but was there a specific focus on transportation?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, transportation planning. The degree is technically a masters in city and regional planning. But my course focus and my thesis were all on transportation planning. Looking specifically at things like mode shift, how do you convince people to take a different form of transportation than they used to? Why should they take a different form of transportation? What are the results of either option, if everybody buys a car, what does that look like on the roads? If everybody takes transit, what does that look like? So the shifts between different modes was what I looked at in my thesis and, and just transportation planning generally. So how do we plan for future roads? How do we plan future train lines? How do we plan a bus system? And what are the things that go into deciding which of those are the best options for a particular locality? So all that was part of my study.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. So you’re well suited for writing this paper. I think there’s a reason it reads so well. And so let’s start with that. Let’s talk about the bus rapid transit. But as a bit of background your analysis is done on the backdrop of the congestion in Boston. You cite some data at the start or the top of the paper talking about how bad Boston traffic was before the pandemic. You mentioned that it was the worst in America and among the top 10 worst in the world. So say more about that.
Ian Ollis:
Absolutely. So and several other organizations, Texas A and M university published these annual statistics on congestion in the United States and also around the world and Boston and the greater Metro area have frequently scored in the top 10 of worst places in the United States. And occasionally one of the worst places in the world for congestion, and they measure congestion by the delays on your trip. And also the amount of extra time that you spend in traffic and Boston frequently, or the greater Metro area, Boston frequently scores very badly on all of those metrics. The one year it was the worst in the United States, some years it’s the third worst or, or the fourth worst, but typically it’s always in the top five for that particular reason. And so it, it’s a major problem that you have to deal with in the Boston Metro area is, is how do you deal with this growing congestion?
Ian Ollis:
Because the population grows success, breed, success, breeds, congestion, right? So if your city is successful at attracting lots of new folks, you are gonna have increased congestion and you’re gonna have to find ways to deal with it. So this particular paper then says B R T bus, rapid transit is one of the possible solutions to congestion remembering that the it’s always a package. You, you, you need to do it multiple things simultaneously. And this paper proposes that bus rapid transit is one of the solutions that could really assist in taking care of that long term congestion problem that Boston has been having for decades.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yeah. I wanna put a finer point on that one. One statistic that was mentioned is because of the average Boston commuter spends an extra 164 hours getting to work that they would not where there no congestion, if we absolutely bake, if we bake that into a 40 hour week, that’s a month of work in traffic. So that’s a sobering reality. So I, I wanted to offer that as the backdrop for our conversation, because if we could, we would all like to spend a little less time in traffic. Now we’re gonna go deep into what public transit is all about. Again, you’re an expert in this field. Let’s define our terms because as you say bus rapid transit is one of many forms of rapid transit define for our listeners. Some of the other alternative, if I’m gonna get to work using mass transit, what are my alternatives?
Ian Ollis:
So you could use a subway train typically most metropolitan cities have a subway system in the larger cities. And that is a set of trains that run in tunnels underground in the Boston Metro area. You’ve got thet, the MBTA subway trains, the bread line, the green line, the orange line, the blue line, the, the green line effectively is, is in some cities, a different alternative because on the, when it’s above ground, it is a light rail system or a tram. And people use those, those terms interchangeably. So you could use a light rail or tra system. You could use subway tunnels with subway trains as you have in Boston or New York. You could have a regular bus. So the, the typical yellow MBTA, regular buses of are in on the road and often in regular traffic. And that we can have a discussion about that because those buses, if you don’t have special bus lanes or other facilities, the bus is gonna take just as long as the car will, and it doesn’t help because the bus also has to stop every, so to pick up and drop off folks. So it’s gonna take a long time a regular bus if you’ve got congestion and there’s no accommodations for that bus specifically, the bus is gonna be stuck behind you or in front of you in the traffic in a normal sense.
Joe Selvaggi:
Sure, sure. Okay. So you’ve, you’ve laid out the the framework you’ve got, I guess heavy rail, which is the commuter rail, the purple line. Then you’ve got subways which are, as you mentioned, all the different colored lines. And when the, the green line comes outta the ground, it becomes light rail. Again, it moves along with cars besides them, but, and interacts, I guess, with a congestion, but it has its own sort of space. And then last of all is, is the bus that you mention the yellow bus. And unfortunately it’s thrown in the same congestion that our cars are. So in its current form it, it suffers from some of the challenges that you would if you were to take your car. So there I think is a good place to jump off. So you, you mentioned bus rapid transit as something different from a bus. So you’ve got the yellow bus, you’ve got bus, rapid transit share with our listeners. What, how does a bus rapid transit system differ from a regular bus system?
Ian Ollis:
So there are four or five big differences around the world that they use to make something, a bus, rapid transit system. The first thing is that they have rapid boarding. So the idea is to try and make the floor of the bus, the same high as the floor of the bus stop. They call them bus stations so that you can push your wheelchair or your stroller straight into the bus without any stairs. You can walk straight into the bus without any stairs. And the floor is level that is added to, by, with a second piece of technology, which is off the bus fair collection. So the driver does not get involved with collecting your money fiddling with coins and change or a slot in the front of the bus, where you put your, your money in. The fare is collected off of the bus it’s did in the bus station or the bus stop itself so that you don’t have money having to change hands on the bus, because that takes time.
Ian Ollis:
So you, you imagine the queue of people climbing up the stairs into a bus, standing at the front, tapping their T card, or fiddling with coins and notes to try and pay the none of that happens on a full completed BRT system. You collect the money somewhere else. So that speeds up the process of boarding new people onto the bus and getting them off the bus. The big change is of course, that you try with a BRT system, a bus rapid transit system to have a dedicated bus lane preferably for the whole route. But in many cases, when you have to put a bus rapid transit system on an existing roadway with existing limitations, you have to alternate that with some dedicated bus lanes and some where the bus has to unfortunately still operate in the regular traffic.
Ian Ollis:
So it depends on how much land you’ve got available. If you have land available, it’s preferable to have the whole route, a completely dedicated bus lane. And, and, and these kinds of features together, the trip quick, you get on and off the bus, much quicker than a regular bus. You pay the fair somewhere else. You get on a level floor, the bus operates in a dedicated lane. And then in, in some cases they also have signal preference for the bus. So you arrive at the intersection, the bus is allowed to go few before the cars. So the bus lane, the light goes, the bus moves forward a few seconds later, the light goes again, and the cars move forward. So the bus can get in front of the queue in a sense. And all of that together means that the bus is quicker than your car, because it’s not stuck in traffic it’s in its own lane.
Ian Ollis:
The only thing in that lane is the bus in front of it. So the buses tend to move quicker like a train does because it eliminates the traffic. It eliminates the slow boarding and, and getting off the bus and, and as a much faster system. So that’s typically what a BRT is when you have to retrofit a city with BRT, you sometimes have to pick, and is those elements that you can afford, and that can actually be accommodated in the right of way of the roadway where you’re trying to put it in. So you can’t always have everything. And so they talk about a five star gold B R T, or a four star or three star, depending on which of those particular measures you can implement on a particular roadway.
Joe Selvaggi:
So this sounds again, you use the closest analogy there sounds like the green line in Brookline with tires instead of wheels. But even there, we haven’t chosen to make level boarding or stream the fair collection process. So it would seem to me that we should walk before we can run. Is there any planet, a way to help the the green line become, let’s say more rapid than it is now.
Ian Ollis:
So the pioneer Institute hasn’t put out a paper to, to deal with that particular thing, as far as I’m. But the MBTA has been looking at ways to speed up the green line. And so they’ve, they’ve looked at a couple of things to, to consolidate two stations into one to two green line stops into one, and they’re looking at the fair election system to try and eliminate having cash on, on the, on the train. But there have been local pressure groups that have been trying to convince the tea to still allow for the cash on, on the buses and, and train. So it, it’s a bit of a push and pull between the local community and certain groups, certain disabled people’s groups, and so on with the M B T a as to how much of that to do and how much not to do, but it’s a trade off.
Ian Ollis:
I mean, the public, essentially who, who express their views have a trade off, do we want to substantially faster without some of these measures like cash on the bus and train, or do you want halfway where you, you have some of the measures, but you don’t want all of them and, and are the public happy to, to have two stops or stations consolidated on the green line or not? If, if you have those, you’re gonna get quick FA the trip’s gonna be faster. You’re gonna get to work or to school or to the shops quicker, but if you still want all of the stops it takes longer to get there. And so all of these things are a, are a negotiation, I guess, with the commuter, the consumer and, and the operator.
Joe Selvaggi:
So it sounds like an ambitious as you say, there’s a lot of choices, a lot of trade offs step, step back a bit and say, okay, look, buses, that’s not a new technology. What you describe seems fairly intuitive and not highly technical as far as a solution goes. Is, is this concept of bus rapid transit used anywhere in the world historically let’s start with sort of outside the us, and then perhaps we can talk about if there’s examples within the us.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So in south America Mexico in Africa, the, the country I come from in South Africa has in, in I think it’s six now of the larger metropolitan areas, a bus rapid transit system Bogota in, in Columbia is the, is the, is the big case where, where they’ve implemented the full thing large amounts of people are moved on a bus, rapid trance system every day. Mexico city has been putting in some lines it’s, it’s used in Europe in some locations. So it it’s used on, on basically every continent. As I said, some people go for the full five star system with all of the bells and whistles. Other people choose the parts of it that they can accommodate. The typical situ situation in the us is that people do implement it, but they typically don’t go for all, all of the metrics they implement the portions that they can implement quickly.
Ian Ollis:
And don’t always take all of the bells and whistles. The, the, the ultimate B R T would have the buses run on dedicated lanes in the middle of the roadway. And there would be a bus station, a completely enclosed bus station in the middle of the roadway in the mid. And you would cross the road on a pedestrian crosswalk and a signalize one. And then the bus station or bus stop would be in the middle of the road. And that makes the buses even faster, the metrics of where you place the bus station have an effect on the speed as well. So I mean, that, that turns the bus into a train effectively because you have everything happening on a dedicated set of lanes in the middle of the road without any obstructions. And it, the bus becomes virtually a train.
Joe Selvaggi:
So when we talk about becoming virtually a train setting aside you know, how we, whether we have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 star version of it, have you compared the costs of let’s say from brand new building a, B R T versus building a, something like a green line equivalent, a, a light rail, is, is there any comparison if I want to you know, use this option a versus B?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So there are comparisons that we’ve done and that others have done between all the modes. So if you have a, a full heavy rail subway train, the B RT bus would be up to 70 times cheap to build and operate because it’s you don’t have to dig tunnels and put trains in tunnels. That’s a really expensive option. So the BT is up to 77, 0 times cheaper than, than having a train in a tunnel light rail is kind of the halfway station. Some of the costs are, are as my having a train. So when you look at the cost of laying the track for the purple line, the commuter rail system versus laying the track for a green line system, the cost of the track is, is fairly similar. The cost of the land. It depends on where the land is, how much it’s gonna cost you.
Ian Ollis:
If, if you, if you have to, to buy land the, the B T system is several times less expensive. If you have enough roadway space, because then you don’t typically have to buy much land and you don’t have to put rails down. You just have a Todd, a, a, an asphalt road surface and you just have a dedicated lane. So it’s just in, in the case of B R T, it depends how much land you have. If you don’t have enough space between on the right of way, you may have to purchase land, or you may have to take a sliver of land from, from disused land, either side of the roadway or something like that. But there’s less infrastructure cost. It’s, it’s quite a, a bit cheaper than putting down rails track to, to run a system.
Joe Selvaggi:
So your, your paper talks about several experiments we’ve had with B R T couple trials here in Massachusetts, I believe the paper talks about Arlington Everett, and then what outta town, Cambridge I’ve run past, or, or seen these big red strips on the, on the ground for the dedicated bus lanes. And it’s not intuitively obvious why that, you know, taking up a lane of traffic for a bus and leaving fewer for cars necessarily helps everyone. Let’s first let’s talk about how you chose or how those cities were chosen. Was it that the, the mayors of those cities wanted you know, something for their constituents, or was this sort of a top down academic exercise?
Ian Ollis:
So those particular local communities, and for example, the mayor of Everett wanted to, to have these pilot studies and the bar foundation offered some funding grants to set up a trial. And so these three particular communities took advantage of that funding were awarded the funding and set it up MBTA as a trial run to see how it would work and effectively it, they were really successful. The big question always is do you have to take a lane away from traffic or have you got space to add a lane to, to provide a lane for the bus and when you take a lane away or when you take all the parking away, it often upsets people. And so there have been examples in, in Boston, in the past where a particular plan was unveiled to put a B T system and the public reacted unhappily protests happened.
Ian Ollis:
And, and the thing was halted. The advantage these trials is that you can do it for a period and experiment and see what the results are. And the public seems to react a little less severely to, to that particular environment. They were very successful trial periods and the male Everett, I believe is super excited about rolling this out even, and having even further route to connect because Everett is a little isolated from the public transportation system. It doesn’t have a stop on the Ts subway lines, the orange line doesn’t have a stop close to areas in that, in that community. And people want to go to work at Kendall square, or they wanna go to work in down to, and how do they get there when the public transportation options are quite limited? So it’s a typical community where this sort of infrastructure would be very useful.
Ian Ollis:
And one of the things our paper calls for is an involvement with a local community. When you want to set up a, B R T system involve the local community, don’t implement it and wait for the ARTC cry, involve the community to, in a participation process where they can come to a meeting and hear all about the proposal and discuss the options and understand what’s involved and give their comments and give their feedback so that by the time you implement it, folks know what to expect and what not to expect. And it’s very good to do these trials, these test cases. And then if people like them, you can say, well, everybody seems to really like this, let’s do some more roots. It, it gets public buy-in and the paper calls for that saying, we really want people to be consulted and have buy-in, but we do think this is a good option to be implemented because it’s so much less expensive than the other options, and it has great environmental benefits.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you, you, you do categorically said these these trials will or success. I’m hoping, or I’m guessing that the success is measured by how much more quickly a, a a commuter can get to work than without it. Did you measure how much benefit a B RT was to let’s just use Everett as an example?
Ian Ollis:
So obviously we didn’t, as the pioneer Institute representatives go out and, and, and measure clock the bus and check how fast it was working, but certainly there was engagement by the MBTA with the local community. And they measured the speed at which the buses were able to get to the destinations. And, and really the buses were faster than regular buses and provided a much more efficient way for people to get to work. Lots of people use the buses. Another way you can measure efficiency is how many people actually choose to get onto the bus rather than take their car or take an Uber. And clearly people were using these buses. The buses were well subscribed. Many people rode the bus, so lots of people chose to use it. And so that’s a sign of success. And the time of travel was measured by the MBTA in terms of how long it took the bus to get to the destination. And, and that was seen as a success because it was a lot quicker than having a regular bus, but without the huge expense of having a subway tunnel that you have to dig,
Joe Selvaggi:
I enjoyed the part of your paper when you talked about not necessarily the benefits that were realized in Everett or Cambridge Watertown, but rather you talked about B R T in Cleveland, Ohio. I thought this was very interesting in that a lot happened in that can community. It was both to the revitalization of the businesses along that line, but also had a positive influence on even home prices and sort of the success of the city. Can you talk about that, those findings in the paper, and in a sense, how would you weave that into your case? If you were into a community like Everett to say, look this doesn’t just get you to Boston faster. It makes Everett a better place. Can, can you relate those stories?
Ian Ollis:
Absolutely. So this particular case you refer to in Cleveland, I mean, the, the results showed that the housing prices along the route went up, not down people of often worry about whether certain traffic is going to contribute to, to dropping their housing prices. We know already from research elsewhere that building a new modern train system pushes housing prices up, but people are not always sure with a bus, whether you achieve the same results. And in that particular case, the housing prices alongside the new BT system went up and that’s very good. It also provides congestion relief to that particular community which did help it got a lot of people to work faster. And so it’s a, it’s a prime example of where it really does work well. If you get the community buy-in, and that’s the key thing is you, you, you don’t wanna be implementing something that a local community is dead against because it won’t have those, those results, but that particular case was super successful.
Joe Selvaggi:
So, so if we have, you know, we, and we’ve talked about a lot about the success you know, the relative cost, the, the, the, this speedy commute and the revitalization of the community. So I’m going into a new community. You, you actually cite some failures of proposals of B R T. I think it was back in 2009 during the Patrick administration where they had wanted to build a, B R T on blue hill Ave. And there was a lot of pushback. Was that based on, let’s say ignorance about the benefits or the fact that it was implemented too quickly, that there wasn’t buy-in is, is this a you know, is this a case study in what not to do?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, I think we said in the paper that, you know, it, we, we, and, and the community involved realized afterwards that administration, the MBTA realized afterwards that the public wanna kick the tires on a new idea. They wanna discuss it. They wanna think about it. They wanna look at at how it works. And I think that particular one was implemented in too much of a rush. The, the community wasn’t consulted, they didn’t know what to expect. They just heard that this thing was gonna be done in their community without the details being understood. And so, really one of the thing, two, two things happen businesses often complain because they have this perception that if you put this BT system down, it’s gonna reduce their customer base, because you might have to remove a parking bays outside of their store. And so businesses often push back local communities often push back.
Ian Ollis:
If they think you’re gonna take a lane of traffic out of the road, or a, a lane available for their cars, and now their traffic’s gonna get worse. And so often people hear about the details without having a full understanding and an appreciation of what has happened elsewhere when these things have been implemented and rightfully they they’re upset. And, and so we are calling for that consultation to be done in Cleveland. You saw that businesses did actually do better after the implementation of the bus rapid transit system. They didn’t do worse. The same thing by the way, also happens with a, a bus lane. If you put in, sorry, a, a bike lane, if you put in a bike lanes in front of stores, the number of people who go and shop in those stores actually goes up, not down. So, so putting bicycle bicycle lanes actually helps businesses in the area, but people don’t always know these facts beforehand.
Ian Ollis:
And so it was very important when implementing these kinds of things to get buy-in from the local community, explain the project, allow people to ask questions and debate the issue. And you find then you get better responses from the public and from local businesses who feel that they’ve been consulted and that they understand more of what’s involved, and they understand particularly the results of what happened elsewhere, where a system like this was the proof is in the pudding. So once you’ve done it somewhere, you can say, Hey, look, this is what we did. It worked.
Joe Selvaggi:
That sounds good. So in a sense, get, buy in let people ruminate on the concept and then implement it gradually. And then gradually it’s embraced. I I’ve, I’ve tried, I just so far in our conversation, steer our conversation clear of the pandemic and COVID, we’ve done pretty well so far but we’re pretending that this hasn’t happened. And of course it has that affected the commutes, the work behavior of nearly everyone in our in our greater Boston community. You, you, you, in your paper, a graph showing the dramatic fall off immediately after I guess March, 2020 and then a return to all modes of transportation, cars are almost back where they were, we’re almost as congested as we were before the pandemic, which is remarkable. But of all the modes of transportation, the buses fell the least and return most quickly. What does that say about those people who use buses and I guess essentially will be likely to use the bus RA rapid transit as well.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, so the, across the country, not just in Boston the buses have seen the fastest return to normalcy. If you like the ridership has gone back to what it was pre COVID a lot quicker with buses than it has with trains. For example, commuter trains have remained still below the ridership levels they had before. COVID. so it, it, it also ties in with the the concept or the, the, the number of people who are essential workers, essential service workers. These folks don’t have lots of other options typically, and so they need to get to work and to get to work and wherever else they need to go, they typically don’t always have a car or two cars, family that are available to use, to, to get to work or to get to school. And typically use buses more frequently than say more middle class folks who have other options.
Ian Ollis:
So typically the service industry has a lot of folks who use buses and they have to get to work. And so their bus ridership has bounced back to relative normal normality far quicker than the trains. People who use commuter trains often are folks who have a car, have access to an automobile, and who are able to find another way to get there. And so those riders bounce back quite a bit slower than you would find with a bus with a BT bus. It’s kind of a mix. I think you would find essential service workers will, will use a B T system. But because it’s seen as faster and more reliable and more successful than a regular bus stuck in traffic, you find that other folks also tend to use it. So you see some other folks who are not essential service workers, who also jump on the B T bus because it’s modern and it’s faster will get you to your destination quicker than a regular bus, which is stuck behind all the cars.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes, I wouldn’t have thought of it that way, but I was going to make the point that you compare the, sort of the relative percentage of, of workers in service industries, that’s healthcare and, and retail and all these kind of things that is much higher percentage in places like Everett than it is saying Cambridge, where people perhaps are, or more in technology or, or academics. But what you’re saying is B R T actually seeks to, or offers an alternative to those people who do have choices those being cars, or, you know, even telecommuting, they, they can take this if it’s reliable and get them there faster. I also wanna point out in one piece in your paper that B R beyond being a, you know, faster, that the variance in, in the commuter commuting times goes down substantially. And I think that’s important as someone, I, I, you know, I, I love trains and, and buses. If I know my average commute is a half hour, but sometimes it’s an hour I wind up not using it because I’m not prepared to go to work and I’m not prepared to get to work a half hour early for all the other days. So I, I think highlight the, the reduction variance of commuting times offered by B RT.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So B, B R T is much more reliable and also quicker. And these two things go together because you’ve got a dedicated lane, you don’t have to wait for the traffic. So the B RT is, is particularly when it has a dedicated lane, we’ll go straight down that lane. And there isn’t even another bus immediately in front of it, cuz the bus that went 15, 20 minutes before the current one has already gone because it doesn’t have traffic in front of it. So these buses move rapidly down in these lanes and the two lanes of cars next door will be slowed down because of traffic because of congestion and they can’t move as quickly as the buses do. So typically that means also that they’re more reliable if there’s an traffic jam or an accident in the one car hits into another car in the lane, unless it spills over into the B R T lane.
Ian Ollis:
Typically the BT bus carries on moving fast and everybody else has gotta wait for this automobile accident to be cleared and all that kind of thing. So it tend be more reliable. And if you have a modern fleet of buses, then it’s even more reliable because they won’t break down or, or, or that type of thing. So the reliability is much higher and the speed is much higher than a regular bus. And so that, for that reason it appeals to people who have a choice who can choose to take their car or an Uber or a Lyft or their bicycle, or stay at home and telework. This provides a choice that is more satisfying to people who, for whom time is important.
Joe Selvaggi:
He, that I think we all fall in that category. So if, if we’ve done a successful job of talking about the benefits of, of bus, rapid transit, our listeners like to learn, but they also like to do, and they if they’ve been persuaded by your argument and the arguments in your paper what can they do? If they’re in a community that perhaps is underserved by rapid transit and certainly buses may not be, not be very rapid at all. What can they do to encourage the adoption of, of B R T in their community? And where can they go to, you know, learn more about just the, the whole concept in general?
Ian Ollis:
So obviously our paper you can read, there’s also much material online that people can read to just find out more about how BRT operates. There’s a BT center for excellence on the internet that you can look to the pioneer paper, but also you can go lobby your local city council, your local councilmen, or woman to investigate putting a new BT system in your community, obviously in, in the greater Boston area, the MBTA runs the system. So your city council or counties the board of supervisors would need to interact with the MBTA in order to create the new B R T system in your neighborhood. And the MBTA is involved in a number of, of, of these pilot projects and are also looking to develop more roots in the future. The silver line is portions of the silver line are a typical B RT system where you don’t have the buses of the silver line stuck in traffic that as a, B R T there are other portions of the silver line where they do get stuck in traffic. And that’s not really what we are aiming for. But that silver line, the portions that have a dedicated lane, those are examples of what can be done with the BT. It’s quite quick. If you take the silver line from south station to the airport, it’s, it’s many portions of that are on a dedicated lane, and it’s quite quick. You can see how fast it can move when you don’t have cars in front of you
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. And I think we’ll, we’ll leave the show with that. But again, I want to make the case that it matters, not just for people who ride the bus, but the people who are in traffic, every person who’s on that rapid bus, rapid transit is someone who’s not in his car in front of you on the highway. So this is an issue for all of us to embrace and encourage. So thank you very much for being on Hubwonk today, Ian.
Ian Ollis:
Sure. I’ve enjoyed it. It’s been fun and something that I think we’re all really interested in hearing more about because it’s a new thing, really, for many of us in the United States.
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. Thank you very much.
Ian Ollis:
Thank you.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute. If you enjoyed today’s episode, there are several ways to support hub long and pioneer Institute. It would be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to hub long on your iTunes podcast, catcher, if you wanna make it easier for others to find Hubwonk, it would be great. If you offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share Hubwonk with friends, if you have ideas for me or comments or suggestions about future episode topics, you’re welcome to email me at hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
[00:00:00] Gerard Robinson [GR]: Hello listeners. Welcome back to another wonderful week of The Learning Curve. As you know, we bring on wonderful guests every week to have conversations about education K-12 and higher ed, as well as conversations about literature, philosophy, the classics, politics, and other good subjects. You’re going to be joyous this week.
[00:00:59] [00:01:00] Why? Because Cara’s gone and who do we refer to? The real Derrell Bradford.
[00:01:09] GR: We want her to hear this because when I’m often replaced in the show, Derrell will come in and do a better job than I can, and they’ll bust on me. So this gives me opportunity to get back at Cara. But the Can Man! Good to have you.
[00:01:21] Derrell: Yeah, that was classic. It is delightful to be here. How are you doing?
[00:01:26] GR: well, man, now the weather’s better today in Charlottesville than it was for the past couple of weeks. So what is it like in your part of the woods?
[00:01:34] Derrell: I mean, it was. frosty up here to, to save, to say the least, but we got to we’re cresting a little bit.
[00:01:39] So some of the trees that feel as schizophrenia, we’ll see how it plays itself up.
[00:01:45] GR: Well, someone like you who’s grown up in the Northeast say is frosty though. That means something I still, although I’ve lived on the east coast and particularly in the south for the last couple of decades, I’m still a California boy at heart.
[00:01:57] And so when I see, automatically think that it’s [00:02:00] warm. I walk outside and the Hawk welcomes me and says, no, it is cold. Can you
[00:02:05] Derrell: believe you went with the throwback? I haven’t heard the cold called the Hawk in like a minute.
[00:02:10] GR: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You know, this is also black history month. And so the ability to be able to bring back things to space and time is what we often do.
[00:02:23] We’ll look, man. So glad to have you join me today to cohost. What’s your story?
[00:02:28] Derrell: mine was in the New York times. cause, uh, you know, I pay my taxes in New Jersey. Somebody pick on the region, titled New Jersey governor to end at school, a mask mandate and move to air quotes, normalcy. and, it’s about, the state’s governor, Phil Murphy, setting a timetable, ostensibly to lift his mass mandate, first week in March.
[00:02:51] So almost two years after. The pandemic started and just like, a couple of things, like one has been really [00:03:00] frustrating to me. It seems like New Jersey is a local control state with almost 600 school districts. So for the governor to lift his mask, man, Actually means it’s meaningless. It just means now there are 600 mandates, right.
[00:03:16] Of varying varieties that change based on what school district you’re in. I’m not taking a side, like for, or against a mandate. I’m taking a side for clarity and not acting like you’re doing something that would be a significant change. to K-12 education and the state given, you know, the last two years when what you’re really doing is punting it to the locals and letting them sort of fold under the weight of it.
[00:03:41] so that’s the first thing, the second thing, which is maybe hardening is, I think the last time, we talked Gerard, you know, it was right after the gubernatorial races in, , New Jersey and in Virginia. And there were lots of theories about, why. you had your outcome down there [00:04:00] and Y Murphy almost lost to a Republican challenger here in a state with a million more Democrats and Republicans, and that Bybee took with 60% of the vote and what Virginia and New Jersey have in common is that they are in the top 10, basically for having the schools closed the longest, , during the pandemic.
[00:04:19] And so maybe. Democrats has started to get the message on this. Like maybe they’re like, yeah, we, can’t keep overriding our authority and making normalcy something that we experienced, but it’s like significantly difficult for regular folks to get on board with. and if we keep doing that, there might be an electoral price, don’t know.
[00:04:39] hope that might be part of what the thinking.
[00:04:42] GR: New Jersey is a really fascinating state because most people. Aren’t aware of how many school systems you actually have. I mean, it’s a lot and it’s a heavy look control, state St here in Virginia, I used to, live in Jersey city and for a couple of years, I work with students in a [00:05:00] weekend program for students at high schools in Newark and Jersey city.
[00:05:04] And when I think about the politics that people often look through, women to try to figure out what to do, I think you’re right. This could be Look at, well, maybe we should think about it. one thing that comes to me, when any governor makes a decision like this, a have you had a conversation or your team with, the local health department experts?
[00:05:24] And the reason I say that is because prior to pandemic, COVID-19 a schools closing. Most people could probably name. His or her superintendent. He has a, her school board member. If you said who’s the health director or commissioner for your city county or township, most people would have no idea. Well, if you were to ask that question today, more people could answer that question now than they could even two years ago, because healthcare commissioners and experts in their teams, really have.
[00:05:56] On the ground work. We see that personally, here in Charlottesville, [00:06:00] lower Morrow county with our people. So that’s number one, number two, even if you’re looking at this through the lens of electoral politics, what does this say about the teachers and about the principals and the superintendents where they consult it, they may be mixed pro or con you know, we’ll figure that out over time, but you’ve got to make sure the frontline people who are delivering education to our students, I’ve got a voice in this and then third.
[00:06:23] What a families have to think. So I’m going to follow this , with much interest in, for those of you who did not read derails article after the election. Now you can tell you the publication, definitely one of the top 10 articles that I read about a post election analysis and what role the pandemic, but also what role families and politics, race played in it.
[00:06:44] So thank you so much for sharing the story and also thank you for your good work. So my story is a little further north than you. It’s about a Boston, and we know that the pioneer Institute, is, , the host for our show. The Boston superintendent, Brenda [00:07:00] Cassellius, has actually announced that she’s going to step down at the end of the academic year from being the superintendent of the school system.
[00:07:08] She joined in 2019 previous life. She was commissioner in Minnesota, doing her tenure there. She had a lot on her plate. COVID-19 is one thing. Number two was trying to close the achievement gap in the city. And then the third was the big push dealing with funding and making sure schools have what they need.
[00:07:27] Naturally. When you hear that a superintendent in Boston, is leading. Everyone’s going to ask why? Well, one of the things that she said upfront when she was, surrounded, , or accompanied with the Boston mayor, Bayer, Wu, and the Boston school committee chair, Jerry Robinson, she said, quote, nothing is pushing me out of the door.
[00:07:46] I’m still here for five months. I’ll still be here for five months and rolling up my sleeves. Getting this work done each and every day. So I’ve always said that one of the toughest jobs in education is being a superintendent [00:08:00] because you catch all the arrows and all the darts, but yet when praise is needed to go around equitably, uh, superintendents often don’t get it.
[00:08:09] I had a chance to work for Arlene Ackerman when she was superintendent of schools in DC and had a chance to see some of that firsthand. With superintendents I’ve worked with in a couple of states. So first and foremost, let me just say thank you for your commitment to the work as a superintendent, but there are some underlying questions that the article didn’t go into and maybe could, we know for a fact that there’s a conversation right now, taking place at the state level over whether or not Boston should go into.
[00:08:38] And as we know that Boston going back to the night early 1990s was one of the early school systems to be a part of the mayor or takeover model. the mayor decided through legislation, , had the opportunity to appoint members to the school board while it was so significant to a place like Boston is that Boston actually had elected school board members going back to [00:09:00] 1822.
[00:09:00] And so to make that shift was very , monumental. But Boston was a part of the conversation in New York city, where they had a marrow takeover. You also had Detroit and other cities. So is the receivership a hint that if we take it over, we’re likely going to appoint a new trustee Harbor master commissioner.
[00:09:20] They’ll come up with the appropriate term. So that could be one factor. Number two, Boston voters have decided to return. The city back to a locally elected a school board system. That could be a factor as well. When you’re an appointed, , city, superintendent, and you report directly to one person like the mayor, there’s a mayor and the school committee.
[00:09:43] There’s a lot of cache that comes along with an appointment process. When it reverts back to electoral politics, you have board members either elected by ward or elected at large or combination. It changes dynamic of accountability. Third, when you [00:10:00] have the possibility of a receivership, it also raises the question of, or what does that mean for accountability?
[00:10:05] What will it mean for funding? Will it mean now that I have, , a school board? Yes. Possibly still a mayor. Yes. But now I have a third rail and that’s the state. And there are a number of dynamics that go along with. local relations, you know, derail you’re in New Jersey, New Jersey was one of the early leaders and school takeovers going back to Jersey city in 1989.
[00:10:26] Then you had Newark even before then. you had, challenges and Trenton. So, , this is going to be both a challenge for Boston, because you now have to. And we basically have to find a new superintendent. I think the Boston superintendency is one of the most coveted positions in the country. it’s a school system in a city and in a state that’s considered one of the smartest in the country based upon the number of people, 25 and older who have a bachelor’s degree.
[00:10:52] And yet you have. Untold gaps by class by race, zip code. So for someone who’s a [00:11:00] reformer, this is an opportunity given the fact that they hire someone who was a former state chief, here’s an opportunity either for a sitting state chief or a former state chief to take her or his name. About state to local government and bring it to Massachusetts, including people who are already in the state who were former state chiefs of secretaries.
[00:11:20] But third, this is also an opportunity for all parties, local state, and the philanthropic community. To say that if we want to reimagine what Boston public schools can look like post pandemic with a whole lot of money from cares, what could we do? So I want to wish her. but also one to watch this with great interest in.
[00:11:41] can I
[00:11:41] Derrell: jump on that real quick? Absolutely. So a couple quick things, I absolutely agree with 0.3, that this is, that. I just reject the entire discussion about return to normalcy, especially in any quasi large or very large urban school district, given the amount of money that is in play from [00:12:00] cares other COVID release packages.
[00:12:02] and knowing that without a pandemic. In this nation, only 20% of black fourth graders are reading at or above proficient on the Nate. Right. So absolutely think this is the moment to, fledge the school system of the future. And I hope whoever the next person is there. thinks that too, just one other it’s one and a half interesting things up.
[00:12:23] So like you said, you get a Jersey city Patterson Camden at one point. new work obviously. And, we’re all, you know, all places would stay takeover. but to varying degrees of, efficacy, but really like I can remember when bill de Blasio took over in New York after what many would.
[00:12:40] describe as a stellar tenure and partnership, , between Joel Klein and Mike Bloomberg. And I went up , , to Albany and some state Senator who I could tell disliked everything about me, wanted to know why I was there because everybody knew that the mayor, bill de Blasio was not a friend charters or anything [00:13:00] worthwhile.
[00:13:01] and I had to paraphrase Winston Churchill. I was like, you know, mayor all control is the worst form of governance, except for all the other ones. I do think that one of the things that people need to continue to, analyze is that like, mayoral control is as good or as bad as the mayor.
[00:13:20] Right. so that sort of like an M and a and important thing, but regardless of who’s in control, Families need leverage. I think even in charter world, you’re seeing sort of like some people that are luminaries of the past two decades go on and do other things. Right. And they leave huge vacuums in institutions that we knew and understood, and that families felt pretty familiar with.
[00:13:44] And now they don’t know. And so it’s like, what optionality Do we give them if there’s a smooth transition in Boston, like more. if it turns into a political feeding Fest, which suppose is also possible, I hope there’s some options on the table for families so they can do what’s right.[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] GR: And so glad to hear you talk about families because you and I have been involved in this work, you know, over two decades at different levels. And we really know that families really could care less about the political fighting. They could care less who’s on the right and the left, give their children opportunities to make decisions for themselves about what.
[00:14:21] Left right. And the middle and the pandemic expose what we’ve seen for years. Just not only issues of poverty, but true beliefs in some adopts worldview that these kids just can’t. And so this is really the opportunity for Boston and really be light on the shining hill. And since you mentioned, Churchill are mentioned another philosopher.
[00:14:45] Mike Tyson once says everyone has a plan until you get hit in the mouth and COVID hit all of us in the mouth. And we thought we had a plan. Well, for the first time in decades, Won’t be the reason we can’t move with some very [00:15:00] interesting ideas. It’s really going to be political will imagination and the ability to have the courage, to think unconventionally, hopefully close to that in Boston and to REL next, we’re going to have an opportunity to speak to our guests of the week, Virginia Walden Ford.
[00:15:18] the one who we learn more about, in a movie. Miss Virginia. We know her well, but I look forward to the rest of our listeners. Get to know her even better. We’ll be back.[00:16:00]
[00:16:43] .
[00:16:43]
[00:16:43] Derrell: , So I’m delighted , to introduce Virginia Walden Ford. I’m going to read her bio, but I should probably just call her, like mother of modern school choice advocacy, because I know that she’s been like a mom to me and I consider.
[00:16:59] her one of the people I’ve always looked up to and learned from. So it’s a personal and professional privilege to have you on today, Virginia, it’s all true. So, Virginia is one of America’s leading advocates for parent empowerment.
[00:17:18] She’s a student, a mother and advocate, and a grandmother. She spent her lifetime fighting to create new educational opportunities for children and families. I native of Little Rock, Arkansas and the daughter of two public school educators, Virginia, and her twin , sister Harrietta were among the first 130 students to de-segregate Little Rock’s high school in the mid 1960s. Then as a single mother, Virginia helped mobilize thousands of parents and supported school choice, which culminated in congressional passage of the DC opportunity scholarship program in 2004 and its reauthorization in 2009 in 2008, the Alliance for School Choice honored her with the John [00:18:00] T.
[00:18:00] Walton champions for choice, award, and recognition of her achievements. She is the author of the books, voices choices, and second chances. And school choice, a legacy to keep, Virginia’s work inspired. The 2019, it pops up this film, miss Virginia, which is now available to view on over 1000 platforms, including apple TV, Amazon prime, video, and Netflix.
[00:18:26] And it is a very good movie. again, Virginia, I am delighted to have a chance
[00:18:31] GR: to talk
[00:18:31] Virginia: to you today. Thank you, Derrell. I am delighted to be here. You and Gerard of course are two of my favorite people in the world. So this was easy,
[00:18:41] Derrell: yeah. And that was like, don’t let that get out. So you’ve lived, I mean, uh, I’m understating it, you’ve lived a remarkable and heroic life. but , advocates, families, politicians, whatever, all, agree on this. from growing up in little rock Arkansas and desegregating the high schools there [00:19:00] deleting school choice efforts in Washington, DC and inspiring people across the country.
[00:19:04] would you share with our listeners what it was like to be in little rock in the mid 1960s? And the last one she carried for with you and your school choice advocates.
[00:19:14] Virginia: I had, the Little Rock Nine desegregated central in 1957, but between that time and when I went in the school, black kids went back to black schools and the schools did not continue a strong desegregation process.
[00:19:30] So in, when I got ready to go in high school in the sixties, we were told that we were going to be the group. We were going to take the big group of kids. And I didn’t want to go. I know I don’t want to go. I want to go to the blouse black high school follow my oldest sister, but my dad said to me, I was 14, you said you have a responsibility to go to central, to do well, to take [00:20:00] advantage of everything that school has to offer you.
[00:20:03] And you know why little girl he said, because you have two younger siblings and how are they going to look at you? If you don’t have the courage to do this. And even at 14, that just stayed with me. It stays with me today. And, even though it was tough and, , there were only about 300 black kids at a school that had over 2000 students and sometime we went visible and sometimes we had to really struggle to get our voices heard.
[00:20:36] I’d always remember. I had two little sisters at home and, I had to do well. So, , it’s that the tone, if you will, of my entire life, my parents were teachers. My father was the first black sister superintendent, a little rock school district for personnel. My mother was one of four teachers that integrated white schools here in little rock.
[00:20:59] [00:21:00] So I had these wonderful role models. I’ve just looked up to and it made us strong. They always told us that I laughed should be one of service that no matter what we do in our lives always serve your community. And that’s what we did, but it was rough. I mean, we’d go to school. It was clear. People didn’t want us there.
[00:21:21] Sometimes teachers wouldn’t call on us. , the black students would meet at the end of the day to walk home together. So we wouldn’t get booked. it was hard. It was hard. But when we graduated from central, we graduated with such incredible pride. we got through it, we did it, and it really helped us in our choices to go to college.
[00:21:46] And, this group went to college and many of us, I wasn’t first celebration, but many of my classmates were first generation college bound So it was, tough, but [00:22:00]
[00:22:01] Derrell: obviously as a student, like you just talked about, a mom, a grandmother, you have been a champion for greater educational opportunity.
[00:22:09] Can you talk specifically about being a mother and advocating for your own children in DC and the barriers she faced there as you were trying to lead and sort of like organize parents in favor of school choice in the
[00:22:23] Virginia: district, I can’t, I have three children Michael Myesha, William.
[00:22:29] My two older kids were really academically, well, every parent says this, but academically gifted and they were easy as long as I was, they knew I was by their side. Then they did their homework and they worked hard as they, made their way, they found role models. They found, we found programs that would benefit them, but it was still hard, but it was, it could be done, by the time my youngest child, women to middle [00:23:00] school, I started seeing changes in the traditional public school system and how they were receiving kids and how kids were doing.
[00:23:08] I lived in a community that was tough. It was pretty tough. a lot of drug problems, a lot of crime, you know, and additionally, there were just numbers and numbers of single mothers that were trying to make it. And even though we try to help each other, it was hard. but I knew as I watched my youngest child hit the streets and I watched the drug dealers.
[00:23:33] For him and buy him things. I knew that something needed to be done. Didn’t know what to do, didn’t know how to do it, but I did know that I wasn’t going to allow my 13, 14 year old child to be pulled into the streets that the district and become just another. Oh, boy, that was a statistic he’s in jail, dead or string out or whatever.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] And, it’s really interesting because I was the behind the scenes mother drought, and I know people obviously they’re right, but I was, was not a speaker. I was not that person. That was the president of the, anything. I would take the cupcakes up there out. Have little parties for the kids, but I wasn’t, aggressive.
[00:24:22] I was a bit of an introvert, but all that said, when I looked at my youngest child and I saw him not able to survive in what the society was, offering him at the time. I had to learn how to use my voice. It was terrifying for me to stand in front of people. at that point we started going to PTA means education, any kind of education meeting.
[00:24:49] We started the Tinder and I had to say something because we were all sitting there watching our two. And that’s kind of how I got into it, talking to [00:25:00] other parents in the neighborhood. We leave that we had to fight for our kids. And don’t know, somehow I got elected leader. I figured that when I, yeah, but, you speak on our behalf and, we’ll be there with you.
[00:25:13] We’ll stay as shoulder to shoulder with you, Virginia, but we need you to be the person it speaks. I had to learn how to do it. I had to learn how to open my mouth and tell people how I felt. And then as we began to talk to people and talk to local elected officials, most of the time, just us or we talk to educators.
[00:25:36] didn’t want to deal with us. So we talked to talk to people in the community and said, oh, y’all do this for a while. And then you’ll back off. Who cares? What happened to these kids? after we stopped that happened, it became clear that we had. And, uh, we had soldiers, and I used to tell the parents all the time, don’t get confused.
[00:25:57] We are soldiers and the more [00:26:00] we talked and the more we visited with people, and the more often that people dismissed them, the stronger we got the tougher. And by the time I started talking to members of Congress, we would talk, we thought we knew something and we would add to it. we knew a little bit and we keep adding people to it.
[00:26:21] And at one point we were out in the community and parents, primarily low income black and Hispanic parents would say, here comes the educational.
[00:26:36] I thought that’s great because their recognizing me as somebody that they could work with. You know, I mean, too many people go into poor communities are safe. We want to help them. And then they never come back or they want too much from them. I just wanted to stand shoulder to shoulder with them and help their children.
[00:26:56] And so we built army. We did it. [00:27:00] DOR how’s that house barbershop, that barbershop, that community center back community solar, we built an army. So
[00:27:09] Derrell: you have one more for me, and then I’m going to let Gerard chime in. And I know he’s going to say he likes you as much as I do, but he’ll be lying. Cause he can’t.
[00:27:23] you’ve received national attention for being among the prime movers with the DC voucher program. Would you discuss the steps that took to mobilize DC parents working with policy makers, politicians that successfully getting congressional support? I know it’s a little bit of what you just talked about, but can you like dig in a tiny bit more for the
[00:27:43] Virginia: list?
[00:27:44] I will draw, one of the things about it is once we have started, and once we built this group of people, we didn’t know where to go with us. And so at that point we found out that there were national groups, they assi, it towards Freeman foundation or [00:28:00] others who were looking for parents, they could stay in.
[00:28:06] They had wonderful ideas and wonderful hopes and dreams. They were, , talking about policy and all this stuff, but what they didn’t have was the pair people that will be in the beneficiaries of anything they were trying to, that would be the beneficiaries. And so I believe in coalitions, I really do don’t know where it came from, but I do, I believe that you got to align yourself with people that believe as you.
[00:28:32] And so we did, we talked to, supporters all over the country, actually, DC is the fishbowl. So once a group of parents were engaged and involved in getting the word out that this was something they wanted, it was not difficult to , talk to people. so we talked to all of those groups and then.
[00:28:55] Uh, member the card was, which is kind of a funny story. I have, we’ve got decided with [00:29:00] members of Congress. We got a call from a member of Congress. Jeff, like actually, and he called and said, I’m thinking about poses scholarship program for DC. And I said, okay. And he said, I heard that you have a group of parents that understand what this is all about now.
[00:29:19] And yeah, he said, you think you can breathe five or six? Our teen parents to stand behind me while I made this announcement about this program. And I said, absolutely hung the phone up and was not sure how we were going to do this. getting people up on Capitol hill. Most of them that never been there before at nine o’clock in the morning, but we put a call out to the parents.
[00:29:43] We had been working on. and then prayed. And in that morning, the next morning at nine o’clock, there were a hundred parents there and I think it was right at that moment that members of Congress who had some interest in providing a [00:30:00] scholarship program or a voucher program for DC took a seriously, you know, when a hundred parents.
[00:30:07] So. And nine o’clock in the morning to say we want something different for our children. We want something better for our children and this man. Who we didn’t know, said that he could do this. And at that point, other members of Congress contacted us, but we provided the hill. we put on our little DC parents for school choice t-shirts and we went to them.
[00:30:30] It wasn’t a house, we made ourselves clean but I think it was such a collaborative effort. and that made a big difference for us when you are trying to make a difference in the world to change something or you’re on a quest or whatever. When you notice that there are people that believe in you, that support you, really helps move it along.
[00:30:53] Hey,
[00:30:54] GR: Virginia. Good to hear your voice.
[00:30:55] Virginia: I heard you
[00:30:58] GR: doing well happy new year, [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Virginia: happy new year today. So Virginia,
[00:31:03] GR: let’s talk about the days you just mentioned these days. There’s a lack of bipartisan consensus on K-12 education policy while DC seems as divided ever. Could you talk about your experience with DC politicians and what school choice advocates need to do today to build on the work?
[00:31:25] Virginia: we’ve known each other a lot of time, but been through a lot together. And I know we’re talking about, one of the first years that we were really fighting hard and really, really involved. I had the opportunity to put together a dinner with support from wonderful people and members of Congress, to bring it was 500 parents to a historically black church in DC.
[00:31:49] to talk about school choice, to talk about, what they needed, what they wanted. And I think that was one of the biggest starts to get in peoples to [00:32:00] begin to believe in us. And, there was several members of Congress, this boat, there was several heads of school choice organizations.
[00:32:07] There were lots of supporters, but the beauty, there was 500 parents and kids. and it was amazing. And so I think those kind of things, when people begin to think, you care about them enough to bring them together and to talk to them, with respect and to hear what they have to say, you can build mountains.
[00:32:31] GR: Absolutely. You can deal with mountains. Here’s a up question. You’ve written two books. Talk to us about the process and why you decided.
[00:32:39] Virginia: first book, voices choices, the second chances. I wrote, because I wanted to leave the information for other parents on how we did it. I mean, the fact of the matter is we built an army and we’re going, but we had to sit down and think about how did we get.
[00:32:57] Yeah, we had a lot of wonderful people [00:33:00] supporting us, but we realized at that time there were lots and lots of parents around the countries that this seemed to be, it seemed too much. and so they, weren’t going to be willing to step out there and do that. So I wrote the first book, which I love and, it’s kind of a, step-by-step how you get.
[00:33:23] And it’s got antidote on things that we did parents around the country had told me they have so much fun reading that as they’re building their earnings. so that was really a great book, but I wanted the world to know how strong the parents were and how hard they fought. And in that was a way , of getting that out, because I think it’s important for parents to be encouraged, but they also need to know how to do this. with. Just came out in 2019 actually [00:34:00] after the movie came out, I wrote as a. pardon to the movie, you know, movies are beautiful and I love this. I’m very proud of this Virginia.
[00:34:10] And so are the parents that I’ve worked with through the years, it tells a great story of a parent activist and, being courageous, all parents and which I love. but every time I went out with the movie to speak, somebody would say, tell us more of what happened.
[00:34:30] You know, tell us a little bit more. Can you name names? And of course I would say no, but we decided in the process of making a movie. Yeah. Then we should , write a book about it. And, another question that people always ask me is how did you get into this? And, and what gives you your inspiration?
[00:34:50] And, my family gives me my inspiration. My great grandfather was. Who bought his family out of slavery into freedom and, , [00:35:00] oh one first bakery owned by a black man in little rock, Arkansas. Hi. You know, I started with this incredible family As many of us have, and we’ve been lucky enough to be able to trace our ancestry, so I wanted to write something and I knew I was getting older and I didn’t know how much longer I was going to be out there fighting for anything.
[00:35:24] And I wanted to leave something to parents and kids and Mackie. And my nieces and nephews, that told not only a history of family whose whole purpose in life was to serve communities. My great-grandfather started church in little rock, the still exist to this day. I wanted to write that part, which is the legacy part.
[00:35:52] but I also wanted to tell a little bit more about the fight, and even though accident name everybody’s that supported us, I [00:36:00] was able to name a few people that supported us And this is a great picture of us. Gerard went to the department of education in the book. I wanted people to see that, I mean, we were soldiers, where are we not?
[00:36:16] And, you and me and Howard and Kevin, I was the only girl. And, , it’s been an amazing journey. So I wrote the second book to, recognize. And to thank all of those people who have been by my side for 20 years. And you’re
[00:36:33] GR: telling them this story during black history month and talked about your grandfather being the slave African school has been so important to us, from the beginning.
[00:36:45] So thank you for telling that here’s the last question. There is a Virginia and a Virgil in Charlottesville, Virginia and lake Charles, Louisiana, and Los Angeles in Minneapolis. Every community has a Virginia and a [00:37:00] Virgil. What do you say to them as they think about taking on this challenge for their children, knowing what you know today,
[00:37:08] Virginia: I’m so glad you said that.
[00:37:09] Cause I say it all the time. I was not. The only one doing this. So he asked me during that time, there were thousands that were around the country that were doing it, that were leading efforts to get people to speak up on behalf of their children and the fight for the children. And as similarly, nowadays, when I’m out and about, and I’m talking to parents and you know, it’s been amazing because during the pandemic people have called me and written me and found me on Facebook or somehow contacted.
[00:37:40] And what I say to them is be strong, stand strong, use your voice to stand up for your children. And I have been so delighted to see so many of them that are doing it virtually, and now many getting out. And so I say all tolerate parents, believe that you can do this [00:38:00] believe, then stand strong, use your voice to speak up.
[00:38:03] You have every week. To speak out on behalf of your children and the men and women that are out there doing that. Parents, aunts, uncles, grandmas, supporters, those are the people that I say, you know, believe my motto has always been hope, love, and dignity. Always. I always said that. And that’s what I say to people.
[00:38:24] Now, hold your head up. Don’t let anybody turn you around. That’s key. And just to say, Don’t let anybody turn you around. I learned that I couldn’t do what I set my heart to do, and nobody could have told me 20 years ago that we would even be having this conversation. And there’s so many incredible things that , happened on my life journey.
[00:38:49] I would say on you. And I’ll probably be raising my three kids with DC and they’d be okay. They’d be grown now. I was privileged to fight onset all the soldiers that have, fought for children [00:39:00] over the years and continue to fight. That’s what I tell them. You know, it’s funny because I never thought of myself this way, but I become that all grandma or auntie, you know, people call and say, can you give me some advice?
[00:39:16] Can you, , , Uplift our group. Can you say something that sparks some energy and I relished that role. I love it. I mean, I, hope that I will continue for as long as I’m able to be that, to this, parents and kids, you know, because I will never stop as long as I’m able to. So like taking on the new role as somebody who.
[00:39:41] GR: We’ll share from your book, a passage to share with us the kind of wisdom you’re talking about before we
[00:39:47] Virginia: head out, I am okay. I had to reread the book and I cried all morning, but this is one thing I want to share. , this from school choice, a [00:40:00] legacy to tape format on chill. I would have done anything to give them opportunities in life, the same opportunities my parents and ancestors has struggled to give up family.
[00:40:16] When I saw invested, I fought against it just like momma and daddy had done decades before. When I saw doors closed to me or to others because of our race or income. I joined with other parents to open those doors and encouraged children to run through them and seize opportunity. And that is from school legacy.
[00:40:46] GR: Well, you’ve had a lot of moms and dads crying at night for excitement, because what you’ve done is to help open up the doors of opportunity in so many cities, in addition to DC. but there are also people who are going to read your books and watch miss [00:41:00] Virginia, and also cry because they said, well, She showed us the way, if she can do it, then we can do it.
[00:41:06] So on behalf of everyone here at, the learning curve and all the people who’ve benefited from your wisdom and your sacrifices, and we have to admit the sacrifices because there’s things you sacrifice personally, professionally and financially that we’ll never know about to get us here. So we want to thank you for your work and know you always have friends here at the learning curve.
[00:41:27] Virginia: Oh, thank you all so much for having me. This has been a pleasure, again, to my favorite people on the planet and, call me anytime, but it has been my privilege to go on this journey.
[00:41:39] GR: Thanks. Take care.
[00:41:41] GR: [00:42:00] Well, we’re now going to go to our Tweet of the week and it looks like we’re staying on the east coast. So this is from Philadelphia schools of February six. It says that the ground. Who are in CTE and S career technical education. We are offering the opportunity for you to earn an industry [00:43:00] recognized certification that may not have been obtained due to COVID-19 closures, read more below.
[00:43:06] And of course, they go into the story for students in Philadelphia. We’ve talked about your system, a number of times on the show. Cara and I have identified some of the great things that Philadelphia was doing. Also some of the challenges they are giving you an opportunity to focus on CTE, again, career technical education for thousands of students.
[00:43:25] This can be an opportunity into middle-class opportunities, and it also will give you an opportunity to make money and to do some things right after high school. So glad to see Philadelphia doing that in a hope families in the city, join that. Next week’s guest is Mark Bauerlein, from Emory University.
[00:43:43] He has got a very interesting title, somewhat say provocative, the title, The Dumbest Generation. I’ll leave it at that. Well, Derrell as usual. It’s always good to, break bread with you, , in different ways. And so glad you’re involved with the work with 50 CAN. Let us know what we can do here on the learning curve to support you, support the organization and to support the families that you consider to be important.
[00:44:07] Derrell: Always, sir, as always thank you for having me.
[00:44:10] GR: All right. Take care.
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Transit Innovation Explored: A Bus As Fast As A Train?
/in Blog: MBTA, Blog: Transportation, Economic Opportunity, Featured, News: Transportation, Podcast Hubwonk /by Editorial StaffHubwonk host Joe Selvaggi talks with transportation expert Ian Ollis about the findings of his new research paper, “Bus Rapid Transit: Costs and Benefits of a Transit Alternative,” which examines the benefits of building Bus Rapid Transit to serve communities looking for faster transit alternatives to a car.
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Please excuse typos.
Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk I’m Joe Selvaggi.
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. As Boston and other cities emerge from the COVID 19 epidemic. Traffic congestion has returned as well. Studies made before the pandemic observe that highway congestion cost Boston commuters and additional 164 hours in their car each year, prompting many to seek faster alternatives. The MBTA offers rapid transit rail service into Boston, but the reach of its network is limited and new train lines are extremely expensive to build the MBT bus network reaches more communities, but as seen as a less attractive slower option owing to their cumbersome boarding process and traveling in the same congestion as cars, fortunately, a new form of transit is appearing on the horizon bus, rapid transit, or BRT. BRT is a concept that enables a bus to operate similar to a train building lanes and stations into the current built environment that reduce traffic and signal delays, and streamline boarding.
Joe Selvaggi:
This new conception of a bus could revolutionize Boston’s transit capabilities by bringing rapid transit to currently unserved communities and delivering an attractive alternative to cars at a cost that is far below building new train or light rail services. My guest today is Ian OIS, director of transportation planning at the Fredericksburg area, metropolitan planning organization, an author of the recently released pioneer Institute research paper, entitled bus, rapid transit costs and benefit of a transit alternative. Mr. Ollie’s research looks at the challenges of Boston’s master system and suggest that B RT can offer commuters a new cost effective addition to our transportation landscape. This paper offers insight on ways to build local stakeholder support for BRT, and then use that success to expand service more widely. When I return, I’ll be joined by transportation researcher, Ian O Okay. We’re back. This is hub won. I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m now joined by Ian Ollis, Director for Transportation Planning in the Fredericksburg Area Metropolitan Planning organization, and author of the recently released Pioneer Institute research paper, entitled “Bus Rapid Transit: Costs and Benefit of a Transit Alternative.” Welcome to Hubwonk, Ian.
Ian Ollis:
Thank you for having me I look forward to chatting with you.
Joe Selvaggi:
All right, before we get started, I’m sure at least one or two of our listeners will hear a little bit of an accent and wonder where you started life. You’re not a Bostonian. So give us a little bit of background on you.
Ian Ollis:
Sure. I was born and raised in South Africa, so actually I’m a fourth generation African and came to Boston in mid 2018 to go back to college. So I went back to educate myself a second time. I went to MIT and completed another degree there in transportation planning and then worked in Boston for Pioneer Institute for a while, and also for Transit Matters in Boston. So I spent some time working in Boston and I’ve recently taken up a position in Virginia doing transportation planning again.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. Like so many of us you came to Boston for school. So you say you’re now in Fredericksburg applying your knowledge that you learned at MIT what was it that you studied specifically at MIT, urban planning, but was there a specific focus on transportation?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, transportation planning. The degree is technically a masters in city and regional planning. But my course focus and my thesis were all on transportation planning. Looking specifically at things like mode shift, how do you convince people to take a different form of transportation than they used to? Why should they take a different form of transportation? What are the results of either option, if everybody buys a car, what does that look like on the roads? If everybody takes transit, what does that look like? So the shifts between different modes was what I looked at in my thesis and, and just transportation planning generally. So how do we plan for future roads? How do we plan future train lines? How do we plan a bus system? And what are the things that go into deciding which of those are the best options for a particular locality? So all that was part of my study.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. So you’re well suited for writing this paper. I think there’s a reason it reads so well. And so let’s start with that. Let’s talk about the bus rapid transit. But as a bit of background your analysis is done on the backdrop of the congestion in Boston. You cite some data at the start or the top of the paper talking about how bad Boston traffic was before the pandemic. You mentioned that it was the worst in America and among the top 10 worst in the world. So say more about that.
Ian Ollis:
Absolutely. So and several other organizations, Texas A and M university published these annual statistics on congestion in the United States and also around the world and Boston and the greater Metro area have frequently scored in the top 10 of worst places in the United States. And occasionally one of the worst places in the world for congestion, and they measure congestion by the delays on your trip. And also the amount of extra time that you spend in traffic and Boston frequently, or the greater Metro area, Boston frequently scores very badly on all of those metrics. The one year it was the worst in the United States, some years it’s the third worst or, or the fourth worst, but typically it’s always in the top five for that particular reason. And so it, it’s a major problem that you have to deal with in the Boston Metro area is, is how do you deal with this growing congestion?
Ian Ollis:
Because the population grows success, breed, success, breeds, congestion, right? So if your city is successful at attracting lots of new folks, you are gonna have increased congestion and you’re gonna have to find ways to deal with it. So this particular paper then says B R T bus, rapid transit is one of the possible solutions to congestion remembering that the it’s always a package. You, you, you need to do it multiple things simultaneously. And this paper proposes that bus rapid transit is one of the solutions that could really assist in taking care of that long term congestion problem that Boston has been having for decades.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yeah. I wanna put a finer point on that one. One statistic that was mentioned is because of the average Boston commuter spends an extra 164 hours getting to work that they would not where there no congestion, if we absolutely bake, if we bake that into a 40 hour week, that’s a month of work in traffic. So that’s a sobering reality. So I, I wanted to offer that as the backdrop for our conversation, because if we could, we would all like to spend a little less time in traffic. Now we’re gonna go deep into what public transit is all about. Again, you’re an expert in this field. Let’s define our terms because as you say bus rapid transit is one of many forms of rapid transit define for our listeners. Some of the other alternative, if I’m gonna get to work using mass transit, what are my alternatives?
Ian Ollis:
So you could use a subway train typically most metropolitan cities have a subway system in the larger cities. And that is a set of trains that run in tunnels underground in the Boston Metro area. You’ve got thet, the MBTA subway trains, the bread line, the green line, the orange line, the blue line, the, the green line effectively is, is in some cities, a different alternative because on the, when it’s above ground, it is a light rail system or a tram. And people use those, those terms interchangeably. So you could use a light rail or tra system. You could use subway tunnels with subway trains as you have in Boston or New York. You could have a regular bus. So the, the typical yellow MBTA, regular buses of are in on the road and often in regular traffic. And that we can have a discussion about that because those buses, if you don’t have special bus lanes or other facilities, the bus is gonna take just as long as the car will, and it doesn’t help because the bus also has to stop every, so to pick up and drop off folks. So it’s gonna take a long time a regular bus if you’ve got congestion and there’s no accommodations for that bus specifically, the bus is gonna be stuck behind you or in front of you in the traffic in a normal sense.
Joe Selvaggi:
Sure, sure. Okay. So you’ve, you’ve laid out the the framework you’ve got, I guess heavy rail, which is the commuter rail, the purple line. Then you’ve got subways which are, as you mentioned, all the different colored lines. And when the, the green line comes outta the ground, it becomes light rail. Again, it moves along with cars besides them, but, and interacts, I guess, with a congestion, but it has its own sort of space. And then last of all is, is the bus that you mention the yellow bus. And unfortunately it’s thrown in the same congestion that our cars are. So in its current form it, it suffers from some of the challenges that you would if you were to take your car. So there I think is a good place to jump off. So you, you mentioned bus rapid transit as something different from a bus. So you’ve got the yellow bus, you’ve got bus, rapid transit share with our listeners. What, how does a bus rapid transit system differ from a regular bus system?
Ian Ollis:
So there are four or five big differences around the world that they use to make something, a bus, rapid transit system. The first thing is that they have rapid boarding. So the idea is to try and make the floor of the bus, the same high as the floor of the bus stop. They call them bus stations so that you can push your wheelchair or your stroller straight into the bus without any stairs. You can walk straight into the bus without any stairs. And the floor is level that is added to, by, with a second piece of technology, which is off the bus fair collection. So the driver does not get involved with collecting your money fiddling with coins and change or a slot in the front of the bus, where you put your, your money in. The fare is collected off of the bus it’s did in the bus station or the bus stop itself so that you don’t have money having to change hands on the bus, because that takes time.
Ian Ollis:
So you, you imagine the queue of people climbing up the stairs into a bus, standing at the front, tapping their T card, or fiddling with coins and notes to try and pay the none of that happens on a full completed BRT system. You collect the money somewhere else. So that speeds up the process of boarding new people onto the bus and getting them off the bus. The big change is of course, that you try with a BRT system, a bus rapid transit system to have a dedicated bus lane preferably for the whole route. But in many cases, when you have to put a bus rapid transit system on an existing roadway with existing limitations, you have to alternate that with some dedicated bus lanes and some where the bus has to unfortunately still operate in the regular traffic.
Ian Ollis:
So it depends on how much land you’ve got available. If you have land available, it’s preferable to have the whole route, a completely dedicated bus lane. And, and, and these kinds of features together, the trip quick, you get on and off the bus, much quicker than a regular bus. You pay the fair somewhere else. You get on a level floor, the bus operates in a dedicated lane. And then in, in some cases they also have signal preference for the bus. So you arrive at the intersection, the bus is allowed to go few before the cars. So the bus lane, the light goes, the bus moves forward a few seconds later, the light goes again, and the cars move forward. So the bus can get in front of the queue in a sense. And all of that together means that the bus is quicker than your car, because it’s not stuck in traffic it’s in its own lane.
Ian Ollis:
The only thing in that lane is the bus in front of it. So the buses tend to move quicker like a train does because it eliminates the traffic. It eliminates the slow boarding and, and getting off the bus and, and as a much faster system. So that’s typically what a BRT is when you have to retrofit a city with BRT, you sometimes have to pick, and is those elements that you can afford, and that can actually be accommodated in the right of way of the roadway where you’re trying to put it in. So you can’t always have everything. And so they talk about a five star gold B R T, or a four star or three star, depending on which of those particular measures you can implement on a particular roadway.
Joe Selvaggi:
So this sounds again, you use the closest analogy there sounds like the green line in Brookline with tires instead of wheels. But even there, we haven’t chosen to make level boarding or stream the fair collection process. So it would seem to me that we should walk before we can run. Is there any planet, a way to help the the green line become, let’s say more rapid than it is now.
Ian Ollis:
So the pioneer Institute hasn’t put out a paper to, to deal with that particular thing, as far as I’m. But the MBTA has been looking at ways to speed up the green line. And so they’ve, they’ve looked at a couple of things to, to consolidate two stations into one to two green line stops into one, and they’re looking at the fair election system to try and eliminate having cash on, on the, on the train. But there have been local pressure groups that have been trying to convince the tea to still allow for the cash on, on the buses and, and train. So it, it’s a bit of a push and pull between the local community and certain groups, certain disabled people’s groups, and so on with the M B T a as to how much of that to do and how much not to do, but it’s a trade off.
Ian Ollis:
I mean, the public, essentially who, who express their views have a trade off, do we want to substantially faster without some of these measures like cash on the bus and train, or do you want halfway where you, you have some of the measures, but you don’t want all of them and, and are the public happy to, to have two stops or stations consolidated on the green line or not? If, if you have those, you’re gonna get quick FA the trip’s gonna be faster. You’re gonna get to work or to school or to the shops quicker, but if you still want all of the stops it takes longer to get there. And so all of these things are a, are a negotiation, I guess, with the commuter, the consumer and, and the operator.
Joe Selvaggi:
So it sounds like an ambitious as you say, there’s a lot of choices, a lot of trade offs step, step back a bit and say, okay, look, buses, that’s not a new technology. What you describe seems fairly intuitive and not highly technical as far as a solution goes. Is, is this concept of bus rapid transit used anywhere in the world historically let’s start with sort of outside the us, and then perhaps we can talk about if there’s examples within the us.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So in south America Mexico in Africa, the, the country I come from in South Africa has in, in I think it’s six now of the larger metropolitan areas, a bus rapid transit system Bogota in, in Columbia is the, is the, is the big case where, where they’ve implemented the full thing large amounts of people are moved on a bus, rapid trance system every day. Mexico city has been putting in some lines it’s, it’s used in Europe in some locations. So it it’s used on, on basically every continent. As I said, some people go for the full five star system with all of the bells and whistles. Other people choose the parts of it that they can accommodate. The typical situ situation in the us is that people do implement it, but they typically don’t go for all, all of the metrics they implement the portions that they can implement quickly.
Ian Ollis:
And don’t always take all of the bells and whistles. The, the, the ultimate B R T would have the buses run on dedicated lanes in the middle of the roadway. And there would be a bus station, a completely enclosed bus station in the middle of the roadway in the mid. And you would cross the road on a pedestrian crosswalk and a signalize one. And then the bus station or bus stop would be in the middle of the road. And that makes the buses even faster, the metrics of where you place the bus station have an effect on the speed as well. So I mean, that, that turns the bus into a train effectively because you have everything happening on a dedicated set of lanes in the middle of the road without any obstructions. And it, the bus becomes virtually a train.
Joe Selvaggi:
So when we talk about becoming virtually a train setting aside you know, how we, whether we have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 star version of it, have you compared the costs of let’s say from brand new building a, B R T versus building a, something like a green line equivalent, a, a light rail, is, is there any comparison if I want to you know, use this option a versus B?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So there are comparisons that we’ve done and that others have done between all the modes. So if you have a, a full heavy rail subway train, the B RT bus would be up to 70 times cheap to build and operate because it’s you don’t have to dig tunnels and put trains in tunnels. That’s a really expensive option. So the BT is up to 77, 0 times cheaper than, than having a train in a tunnel light rail is kind of the halfway station. Some of the costs are, are as my having a train. So when you look at the cost of laying the track for the purple line, the commuter rail system versus laying the track for a green line system, the cost of the track is, is fairly similar. The cost of the land. It depends on where the land is, how much it’s gonna cost you.
Ian Ollis:
If, if you, if you have to, to buy land the, the B T system is several times less expensive. If you have enough roadway space, because then you don’t typically have to buy much land and you don’t have to put rails down. You just have a Todd, a, a, an asphalt road surface and you just have a dedicated lane. So it’s just in, in the case of B R T, it depends how much land you have. If you don’t have enough space between on the right of way, you may have to purchase land, or you may have to take a sliver of land from, from disused land, either side of the roadway or something like that. But there’s less infrastructure cost. It’s, it’s quite a, a bit cheaper than putting down rails track to, to run a system.
Joe Selvaggi:
So your, your paper talks about several experiments we’ve had with B R T couple trials here in Massachusetts, I believe the paper talks about Arlington Everett, and then what outta town, Cambridge I’ve run past, or, or seen these big red strips on the, on the ground for the dedicated bus lanes. And it’s not intuitively obvious why that, you know, taking up a lane of traffic for a bus and leaving fewer for cars necessarily helps everyone. Let’s first let’s talk about how you chose or how those cities were chosen. Was it that the, the mayors of those cities wanted you know, something for their constituents, or was this sort of a top down academic exercise?
Ian Ollis:
So those particular local communities, and for example, the mayor of Everett wanted to, to have these pilot studies and the bar foundation offered some funding grants to set up a trial. And so these three particular communities took advantage of that funding were awarded the funding and set it up MBTA as a trial run to see how it would work and effectively it, they were really successful. The big question always is do you have to take a lane away from traffic or have you got space to add a lane to, to provide a lane for the bus and when you take a lane away or when you take all the parking away, it often upsets people. And so there have been examples in, in Boston, in the past where a particular plan was unveiled to put a B T system and the public reacted unhappily protests happened.
Ian Ollis:
And, and the thing was halted. The advantage these trials is that you can do it for a period and experiment and see what the results are. And the public seems to react a little less severely to, to that particular environment. They were very successful trial periods and the male Everett, I believe is super excited about rolling this out even, and having even further route to connect because Everett is a little isolated from the public transportation system. It doesn’t have a stop on the Ts subway lines, the orange line doesn’t have a stop close to areas in that, in that community. And people want to go to work at Kendall square, or they wanna go to work in down to, and how do they get there when the public transportation options are quite limited? So it’s a typical community where this sort of infrastructure would be very useful.
Ian Ollis:
And one of the things our paper calls for is an involvement with a local community. When you want to set up a, B R T system involve the local community, don’t implement it and wait for the ARTC cry, involve the community to, in a participation process where they can come to a meeting and hear all about the proposal and discuss the options and understand what’s involved and give their comments and give their feedback so that by the time you implement it, folks know what to expect and what not to expect. And it’s very good to do these trials, these test cases. And then if people like them, you can say, well, everybody seems to really like this, let’s do some more roots. It, it gets public buy-in and the paper calls for that saying, we really want people to be consulted and have buy-in, but we do think this is a good option to be implemented because it’s so much less expensive than the other options, and it has great environmental benefits.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you, you, you do categorically said these these trials will or success. I’m hoping, or I’m guessing that the success is measured by how much more quickly a, a a commuter can get to work than without it. Did you measure how much benefit a B RT was to let’s just use Everett as an example?
Ian Ollis:
So obviously we didn’t, as the pioneer Institute representatives go out and, and, and measure clock the bus and check how fast it was working, but certainly there was engagement by the MBTA with the local community. And they measured the speed at which the buses were able to get to the destinations. And, and really the buses were faster than regular buses and provided a much more efficient way for people to get to work. Lots of people use the buses. Another way you can measure efficiency is how many people actually choose to get onto the bus rather than take their car or take an Uber. And clearly people were using these buses. The buses were well subscribed. Many people rode the bus, so lots of people chose to use it. And so that’s a sign of success. And the time of travel was measured by the MBTA in terms of how long it took the bus to get to the destination. And, and that was seen as a success because it was a lot quicker than having a regular bus, but without the huge expense of having a subway tunnel that you have to dig,
Joe Selvaggi:
I enjoyed the part of your paper when you talked about not necessarily the benefits that were realized in Everett or Cambridge Watertown, but rather you talked about B R T in Cleveland, Ohio. I thought this was very interesting in that a lot happened in that can community. It was both to the revitalization of the businesses along that line, but also had a positive influence on even home prices and sort of the success of the city. Can you talk about that, those findings in the paper, and in a sense, how would you weave that into your case? If you were into a community like Everett to say, look this doesn’t just get you to Boston faster. It makes Everett a better place. Can, can you relate those stories?
Ian Ollis:
Absolutely. So this particular case you refer to in Cleveland, I mean, the, the results showed that the housing prices along the route went up, not down people of often worry about whether certain traffic is going to contribute to, to dropping their housing prices. We know already from research elsewhere that building a new modern train system pushes housing prices up, but people are not always sure with a bus, whether you achieve the same results. And in that particular case, the housing prices alongside the new BT system went up and that’s very good. It also provides congestion relief to that particular community which did help it got a lot of people to work faster. And so it’s a, it’s a prime example of where it really does work well. If you get the community buy-in, and that’s the key thing is you, you, you don’t wanna be implementing something that a local community is dead against because it won’t have those, those results, but that particular case was super successful.
Joe Selvaggi:
So, so if we have, you know, we, and we’ve talked about a lot about the success you know, the relative cost, the, the, the, this speedy commute and the revitalization of the community. So I’m going into a new community. You, you actually cite some failures of proposals of B R T. I think it was back in 2009 during the Patrick administration where they had wanted to build a, B R T on blue hill Ave. And there was a lot of pushback. Was that based on, let’s say ignorance about the benefits or the fact that it was implemented too quickly, that there wasn’t buy-in is, is this a you know, is this a case study in what not to do?
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, I think we said in the paper that, you know, it, we, we, and, and the community involved realized afterwards that administration, the MBTA realized afterwards that the public wanna kick the tires on a new idea. They wanna discuss it. They wanna think about it. They wanna look at at how it works. And I think that particular one was implemented in too much of a rush. The, the community wasn’t consulted, they didn’t know what to expect. They just heard that this thing was gonna be done in their community without the details being understood. And so, really one of the thing, two, two things happen businesses often complain because they have this perception that if you put this BT system down, it’s gonna reduce their customer base, because you might have to remove a parking bays outside of their store. And so businesses often push back local communities often push back.
Ian Ollis:
If they think you’re gonna take a lane of traffic out of the road, or a, a lane available for their cars, and now their traffic’s gonna get worse. And so often people hear about the details without having a full understanding and an appreciation of what has happened elsewhere when these things have been implemented and rightfully they they’re upset. And, and so we are calling for that consultation to be done in Cleveland. You saw that businesses did actually do better after the implementation of the bus rapid transit system. They didn’t do worse. The same thing by the way, also happens with a, a bus lane. If you put in, sorry, a, a bike lane, if you put in a bike lanes in front of stores, the number of people who go and shop in those stores actually goes up, not down. So, so putting bicycle bicycle lanes actually helps businesses in the area, but people don’t always know these facts beforehand.
Ian Ollis:
And so it was very important when implementing these kinds of things to get buy-in from the local community, explain the project, allow people to ask questions and debate the issue. And you find then you get better responses from the public and from local businesses who feel that they’ve been consulted and that they understand more of what’s involved, and they understand particularly the results of what happened elsewhere, where a system like this was the proof is in the pudding. So once you’ve done it somewhere, you can say, Hey, look, this is what we did. It worked.
Joe Selvaggi:
That sounds good. So in a sense, get, buy in let people ruminate on the concept and then implement it gradually. And then gradually it’s embraced. I I’ve, I’ve tried, I just so far in our conversation, steer our conversation clear of the pandemic and COVID, we’ve done pretty well so far but we’re pretending that this hasn’t happened. And of course it has that affected the commutes, the work behavior of nearly everyone in our in our greater Boston community. You, you, you, in your paper, a graph showing the dramatic fall off immediately after I guess March, 2020 and then a return to all modes of transportation, cars are almost back where they were, we’re almost as congested as we were before the pandemic, which is remarkable. But of all the modes of transportation, the buses fell the least and return most quickly. What does that say about those people who use buses and I guess essentially will be likely to use the bus RA rapid transit as well.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah, so the, across the country, not just in Boston the buses have seen the fastest return to normalcy. If you like the ridership has gone back to what it was pre COVID a lot quicker with buses than it has with trains. For example, commuter trains have remained still below the ridership levels they had before. COVID. so it, it, it also ties in with the the concept or the, the, the number of people who are essential workers, essential service workers. These folks don’t have lots of other options typically, and so they need to get to work and to get to work and wherever else they need to go, they typically don’t always have a car or two cars, family that are available to use, to, to get to work or to get to school. And typically use buses more frequently than say more middle class folks who have other options.
Ian Ollis:
So typically the service industry has a lot of folks who use buses and they have to get to work. And so their bus ridership has bounced back to relative normal normality far quicker than the trains. People who use commuter trains often are folks who have a car, have access to an automobile, and who are able to find another way to get there. And so those riders bounce back quite a bit slower than you would find with a bus with a BT bus. It’s kind of a mix. I think you would find essential service workers will, will use a B T system. But because it’s seen as faster and more reliable and more successful than a regular bus stuck in traffic, you find that other folks also tend to use it. So you see some other folks who are not essential service workers, who also jump on the B T bus because it’s modern and it’s faster will get you to your destination quicker than a regular bus, which is stuck behind all the cars.
Joe Selvaggi:
Yes, I wouldn’t have thought of it that way, but I was going to make the point that you compare the, sort of the relative percentage of, of workers in service industries, that’s healthcare and, and retail and all these kind of things that is much higher percentage in places like Everett than it is saying Cambridge, where people perhaps are, or more in technology or, or academics. But what you’re saying is B R T actually seeks to, or offers an alternative to those people who do have choices those being cars, or, you know, even telecommuting, they, they can take this if it’s reliable and get them there faster. I also wanna point out in one piece in your paper that B R beyond being a, you know, faster, that the variance in, in the commuter commuting times goes down substantially. And I think that’s important as someone, I, I, you know, I, I love trains and, and buses. If I know my average commute is a half hour, but sometimes it’s an hour I wind up not using it because I’m not prepared to go to work and I’m not prepared to get to work a half hour early for all the other days. So I, I think highlight the, the reduction variance of commuting times offered by B RT.
Ian Ollis:
Yeah. So B, B R T is much more reliable and also quicker. And these two things go together because you’ve got a dedicated lane, you don’t have to wait for the traffic. So the B RT is, is particularly when it has a dedicated lane, we’ll go straight down that lane. And there isn’t even another bus immediately in front of it, cuz the bus that went 15, 20 minutes before the current one has already gone because it doesn’t have traffic in front of it. So these buses move rapidly down in these lanes and the two lanes of cars next door will be slowed down because of traffic because of congestion and they can’t move as quickly as the buses do. So typically that means also that they’re more reliable if there’s an traffic jam or an accident in the one car hits into another car in the lane, unless it spills over into the B R T lane.
Ian Ollis:
Typically the BT bus carries on moving fast and everybody else has gotta wait for this automobile accident to be cleared and all that kind of thing. So it tend be more reliable. And if you have a modern fleet of buses, then it’s even more reliable because they won’t break down or, or, or that type of thing. So the reliability is much higher and the speed is much higher than a regular bus. And so that, for that reason it appeals to people who have a choice who can choose to take their car or an Uber or a Lyft or their bicycle, or stay at home and telework. This provides a choice that is more satisfying to people who, for whom time is important.
Joe Selvaggi:
He, that I think we all fall in that category. So if, if we’ve done a successful job of talking about the benefits of, of bus, rapid transit, our listeners like to learn, but they also like to do, and they if they’ve been persuaded by your argument and the arguments in your paper what can they do? If they’re in a community that perhaps is underserved by rapid transit and certainly buses may not be, not be very rapid at all. What can they do to encourage the adoption of, of B R T in their community? And where can they go to, you know, learn more about just the, the whole concept in general?
Ian Ollis:
So obviously our paper you can read, there’s also much material online that people can read to just find out more about how BRT operates. There’s a BT center for excellence on the internet that you can look to the pioneer paper, but also you can go lobby your local city council, your local councilmen, or woman to investigate putting a new BT system in your community, obviously in, in the greater Boston area, the MBTA runs the system. So your city council or counties the board of supervisors would need to interact with the MBTA in order to create the new B R T system in your neighborhood. And the MBTA is involved in a number of, of, of these pilot projects and are also looking to develop more roots in the future. The silver line is portions of the silver line are a typical B RT system where you don’t have the buses of the silver line stuck in traffic that as a, B R T there are other portions of the silver line where they do get stuck in traffic. And that’s not really what we are aiming for. But that silver line, the portions that have a dedicated lane, those are examples of what can be done with the BT. It’s quite quick. If you take the silver line from south station to the airport, it’s, it’s many portions of that are on a dedicated lane, and it’s quite quick. You can see how fast it can move when you don’t have cars in front of you
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. And I think we’ll, we’ll leave the show with that. But again, I want to make the case that it matters, not just for people who ride the bus, but the people who are in traffic, every person who’s on that rapid bus, rapid transit is someone who’s not in his car in front of you on the highway. So this is an issue for all of us to embrace and encourage. So thank you very much for being on Hubwonk today, Ian.
Ian Ollis:
Sure. I’ve enjoyed it. It’s been fun and something that I think we’re all really interested in hearing more about because it’s a new thing, really, for many of us in the United States.
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed. Thank you very much.
Ian Ollis:
Thank you.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute. If you enjoyed today’s episode, there are several ways to support hub long and pioneer Institute. It would be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to hub long on your iTunes podcast, catcher, if you wanna make it easier for others to find Hubwonk, it would be great. If you offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share Hubwonk with friends, if you have ideas for me or comments or suggestions about future episode topics, you’re welcome to email me at hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
[00:00:00] Gerard Robinson [GR]: Hello listeners. Welcome back to another wonderful week of The Learning Curve. As you know, we bring on wonderful guests every week to have conversations about education K-12 and higher ed, as well as conversations about literature, philosophy, the classics, politics, and other good subjects. You’re going to be joyous this week.
[00:00:59] [00:01:00] Why? Because Cara’s gone and who do we refer to? The real Derrell Bradford.
[00:01:09] GR: We want her to hear this because when I’m often replaced in the show, Derrell will come in and do a better job than I can, and they’ll bust on me. So this gives me opportunity to get back at Cara. But the Can Man! Good to have you.
[00:01:21] Derrell: Yeah, that was classic. It is delightful to be here. How are you doing?
[00:01:26] GR: well, man, now the weather’s better today in Charlottesville than it was for the past couple of weeks. So what is it like in your part of the woods?
[00:01:34] Derrell: I mean, it was. frosty up here to, to save, to say the least, but we got to we’re cresting a little bit.
[00:01:39] So some of the trees that feel as schizophrenia, we’ll see how it plays itself up.
[00:01:45] GR: Well, someone like you who’s grown up in the Northeast say is frosty though. That means something I still, although I’ve lived on the east coast and particularly in the south for the last couple of decades, I’m still a California boy at heart.
[00:01:57] And so when I see, automatically think that it’s [00:02:00] warm. I walk outside and the Hawk welcomes me and says, no, it is cold. Can you
[00:02:05] Derrell: believe you went with the throwback? I haven’t heard the cold called the Hawk in like a minute.
[00:02:10] GR: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You know, this is also black history month. And so the ability to be able to bring back things to space and time is what we often do.
[00:02:23] We’ll look, man. So glad to have you join me today to cohost. What’s your story?
[00:02:28] Derrell: mine was in the New York times. cause, uh, you know, I pay my taxes in New Jersey. Somebody pick on the region, titled New Jersey governor to end at school, a mask mandate and move to air quotes, normalcy. and, it’s about, the state’s governor, Phil Murphy, setting a timetable, ostensibly to lift his mass mandate, first week in March.
[00:02:51] So almost two years after. The pandemic started and just like, a couple of things, like one has been really [00:03:00] frustrating to me. It seems like New Jersey is a local control state with almost 600 school districts. So for the governor to lift his mask, man, Actually means it’s meaningless. It just means now there are 600 mandates, right.
[00:03:16] Of varying varieties that change based on what school district you’re in. I’m not taking a side, like for, or against a mandate. I’m taking a side for clarity and not acting like you’re doing something that would be a significant change. to K-12 education and the state given, you know, the last two years when what you’re really doing is punting it to the locals and letting them sort of fold under the weight of it.
[00:03:41] so that’s the first thing, the second thing, which is maybe hardening is, I think the last time, we talked Gerard, you know, it was right after the gubernatorial races in, , New Jersey and in Virginia. And there were lots of theories about, why. you had your outcome down there [00:04:00] and Y Murphy almost lost to a Republican challenger here in a state with a million more Democrats and Republicans, and that Bybee took with 60% of the vote and what Virginia and New Jersey have in common is that they are in the top 10, basically for having the schools closed the longest, , during the pandemic.
[00:04:19] And so maybe. Democrats has started to get the message on this. Like maybe they’re like, yeah, we, can’t keep overriding our authority and making normalcy something that we experienced, but it’s like significantly difficult for regular folks to get on board with. and if we keep doing that, there might be an electoral price, don’t know.
[00:04:39] hope that might be part of what the thinking.
[00:04:42] GR: New Jersey is a really fascinating state because most people. Aren’t aware of how many school systems you actually have. I mean, it’s a lot and it’s a heavy look control, state St here in Virginia, I used to, live in Jersey city and for a couple of years, I work with students in a [00:05:00] weekend program for students at high schools in Newark and Jersey city.
[00:05:04] And when I think about the politics that people often look through, women to try to figure out what to do, I think you’re right. This could be Look at, well, maybe we should think about it. one thing that comes to me, when any governor makes a decision like this, a have you had a conversation or your team with, the local health department experts?
[00:05:24] And the reason I say that is because prior to pandemic, COVID-19 a schools closing. Most people could probably name. His or her superintendent. He has a, her school board member. If you said who’s the health director or commissioner for your city county or township, most people would have no idea. Well, if you were to ask that question today, more people could answer that question now than they could even two years ago, because healthcare commissioners and experts in their teams, really have.
[00:05:56] On the ground work. We see that personally, here in Charlottesville, [00:06:00] lower Morrow county with our people. So that’s number one, number two, even if you’re looking at this through the lens of electoral politics, what does this say about the teachers and about the principals and the superintendents where they consult it, they may be mixed pro or con you know, we’ll figure that out over time, but you’ve got to make sure the frontline people who are delivering education to our students, I’ve got a voice in this and then third.
[00:06:23] What a families have to think. So I’m going to follow this , with much interest in, for those of you who did not read derails article after the election. Now you can tell you the publication, definitely one of the top 10 articles that I read about a post election analysis and what role the pandemic, but also what role families and politics, race played in it.
[00:06:44] So thank you so much for sharing the story and also thank you for your good work. So my story is a little further north than you. It’s about a Boston, and we know that the pioneer Institute, is, , the host for our show. The Boston superintendent, Brenda [00:07:00] Cassellius, has actually announced that she’s going to step down at the end of the academic year from being the superintendent of the school system.
[00:07:08] She joined in 2019 previous life. She was commissioner in Minnesota, doing her tenure there. She had a lot on her plate. COVID-19 is one thing. Number two was trying to close the achievement gap in the city. And then the third was the big push dealing with funding and making sure schools have what they need.
[00:07:27] Naturally. When you hear that a superintendent in Boston, is leading. Everyone’s going to ask why? Well, one of the things that she said upfront when she was, surrounded, , or accompanied with the Boston mayor, Bayer, Wu, and the Boston school committee chair, Jerry Robinson, she said, quote, nothing is pushing me out of the door.
[00:07:46] I’m still here for five months. I’ll still be here for five months and rolling up my sleeves. Getting this work done each and every day. So I’ve always said that one of the toughest jobs in education is being a superintendent [00:08:00] because you catch all the arrows and all the darts, but yet when praise is needed to go around equitably, uh, superintendents often don’t get it.
[00:08:09] I had a chance to work for Arlene Ackerman when she was superintendent of schools in DC and had a chance to see some of that firsthand. With superintendents I’ve worked with in a couple of states. So first and foremost, let me just say thank you for your commitment to the work as a superintendent, but there are some underlying questions that the article didn’t go into and maybe could, we know for a fact that there’s a conversation right now, taking place at the state level over whether or not Boston should go into.
[00:08:38] And as we know that Boston going back to the night early 1990s was one of the early school systems to be a part of the mayor or takeover model. the mayor decided through legislation, , had the opportunity to appoint members to the school board while it was so significant to a place like Boston is that Boston actually had elected school board members going back to [00:09:00] 1822.
[00:09:00] And so to make that shift was very , monumental. But Boston was a part of the conversation in New York city, where they had a marrow takeover. You also had Detroit and other cities. So is the receivership a hint that if we take it over, we’re likely going to appoint a new trustee Harbor master commissioner.
[00:09:20] They’ll come up with the appropriate term. So that could be one factor. Number two, Boston voters have decided to return. The city back to a locally elected a school board system. That could be a factor as well. When you’re an appointed, , city, superintendent, and you report directly to one person like the mayor, there’s a mayor and the school committee.
[00:09:43] There’s a lot of cache that comes along with an appointment process. When it reverts back to electoral politics, you have board members either elected by ward or elected at large or combination. It changes dynamic of accountability. Third, when you [00:10:00] have the possibility of a receivership, it also raises the question of, or what does that mean for accountability?
[00:10:05] What will it mean for funding? Will it mean now that I have, , a school board? Yes. Possibly still a mayor. Yes. But now I have a third rail and that’s the state. And there are a number of dynamics that go along with. local relations, you know, derail you’re in New Jersey, New Jersey was one of the early leaders and school takeovers going back to Jersey city in 1989.
[00:10:26] Then you had Newark even before then. you had, challenges and Trenton. So, , this is going to be both a challenge for Boston, because you now have to. And we basically have to find a new superintendent. I think the Boston superintendency is one of the most coveted positions in the country. it’s a school system in a city and in a state that’s considered one of the smartest in the country based upon the number of people, 25 and older who have a bachelor’s degree.
[00:10:52] And yet you have. Untold gaps by class by race, zip code. So for someone who’s a [00:11:00] reformer, this is an opportunity given the fact that they hire someone who was a former state chief, here’s an opportunity either for a sitting state chief or a former state chief to take her or his name. About state to local government and bring it to Massachusetts, including people who are already in the state who were former state chiefs of secretaries.
[00:11:20] But third, this is also an opportunity for all parties, local state, and the philanthropic community. To say that if we want to reimagine what Boston public schools can look like post pandemic with a whole lot of money from cares, what could we do? So I want to wish her. but also one to watch this with great interest in.
[00:11:41] can I
[00:11:41] Derrell: jump on that real quick? Absolutely. So a couple quick things, I absolutely agree with 0.3, that this is, that. I just reject the entire discussion about return to normalcy, especially in any quasi large or very large urban school district, given the amount of money that is in play from [00:12:00] cares other COVID release packages.
[00:12:02] and knowing that without a pandemic. In this nation, only 20% of black fourth graders are reading at or above proficient on the Nate. Right. So absolutely think this is the moment to, fledge the school system of the future. And I hope whoever the next person is there. thinks that too, just one other it’s one and a half interesting things up.
[00:12:23] So like you said, you get a Jersey city Patterson Camden at one point. new work obviously. And, we’re all, you know, all places would stay takeover. but to varying degrees of, efficacy, but really like I can remember when bill de Blasio took over in New York after what many would.
[00:12:40] describe as a stellar tenure and partnership, , between Joel Klein and Mike Bloomberg. And I went up , , to Albany and some state Senator who I could tell disliked everything about me, wanted to know why I was there because everybody knew that the mayor, bill de Blasio was not a friend charters or anything [00:13:00] worthwhile.
[00:13:01] and I had to paraphrase Winston Churchill. I was like, you know, mayor all control is the worst form of governance, except for all the other ones. I do think that one of the things that people need to continue to, analyze is that like, mayoral control is as good or as bad as the mayor.
[00:13:20] Right. so that sort of like an M and a and important thing, but regardless of who’s in control, Families need leverage. I think even in charter world, you’re seeing sort of like some people that are luminaries of the past two decades go on and do other things. Right. And they leave huge vacuums in institutions that we knew and understood, and that families felt pretty familiar with.
[00:13:44] And now they don’t know. And so it’s like, what optionality Do we give them if there’s a smooth transition in Boston, like more. if it turns into a political feeding Fest, which suppose is also possible, I hope there’s some options on the table for families so they can do what’s right.[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] GR: And so glad to hear you talk about families because you and I have been involved in this work, you know, over two decades at different levels. And we really know that families really could care less about the political fighting. They could care less who’s on the right and the left, give their children opportunities to make decisions for themselves about what.
[00:14:21] Left right. And the middle and the pandemic expose what we’ve seen for years. Just not only issues of poverty, but true beliefs in some adopts worldview that these kids just can’t. And so this is really the opportunity for Boston and really be light on the shining hill. And since you mentioned, Churchill are mentioned another philosopher.
[00:14:45] Mike Tyson once says everyone has a plan until you get hit in the mouth and COVID hit all of us in the mouth. And we thought we had a plan. Well, for the first time in decades, Won’t be the reason we can’t move with some very [00:15:00] interesting ideas. It’s really going to be political will imagination and the ability to have the courage, to think unconventionally, hopefully close to that in Boston and to REL next, we’re going to have an opportunity to speak to our guests of the week, Virginia Walden Ford.
[00:15:18] the one who we learn more about, in a movie. Miss Virginia. We know her well, but I look forward to the rest of our listeners. Get to know her even better. We’ll be back.[00:16:00]
[00:16:43] .
[00:16:43]
[00:16:43] Derrell: , So I’m delighted , to introduce Virginia Walden Ford. I’m going to read her bio, but I should probably just call her, like mother of modern school choice advocacy, because I know that she’s been like a mom to me and I consider.
[00:16:59] her one of the people I’ve always looked up to and learned from. So it’s a personal and professional privilege to have you on today, Virginia, it’s all true. So, Virginia is one of America’s leading advocates for parent empowerment.
[00:17:18] She’s a student, a mother and advocate, and a grandmother. She spent her lifetime fighting to create new educational opportunities for children and families. I native of Little Rock, Arkansas and the daughter of two public school educators, Virginia, and her twin , sister Harrietta were among the first 130 students to de-segregate Little Rock’s high school in the mid 1960s. Then as a single mother, Virginia helped mobilize thousands of parents and supported school choice, which culminated in congressional passage of the DC opportunity scholarship program in 2004 and its reauthorization in 2009 in 2008, the Alliance for School Choice honored her with the John [00:18:00] T.
[00:18:00] Walton champions for choice, award, and recognition of her achievements. She is the author of the books, voices choices, and second chances. And school choice, a legacy to keep, Virginia’s work inspired. The 2019, it pops up this film, miss Virginia, which is now available to view on over 1000 platforms, including apple TV, Amazon prime, video, and Netflix.
[00:18:26] And it is a very good movie. again, Virginia, I am delighted to have a chance
[00:18:31] GR: to talk
[00:18:31] Virginia: to you today. Thank you, Derrell. I am delighted to be here. You and Gerard of course are two of my favorite people in the world. So this was easy,
[00:18:41] Derrell: yeah. And that was like, don’t let that get out. So you’ve lived, I mean, uh, I’m understating it, you’ve lived a remarkable and heroic life. but , advocates, families, politicians, whatever, all, agree on this. from growing up in little rock Arkansas and desegregating the high schools there [00:19:00] deleting school choice efforts in Washington, DC and inspiring people across the country.
[00:19:04] would you share with our listeners what it was like to be in little rock in the mid 1960s? And the last one she carried for with you and your school choice advocates.
[00:19:14] Virginia: I had, the Little Rock Nine desegregated central in 1957, but between that time and when I went in the school, black kids went back to black schools and the schools did not continue a strong desegregation process.
[00:19:30] So in, when I got ready to go in high school in the sixties, we were told that we were going to be the group. We were going to take the big group of kids. And I didn’t want to go. I know I don’t want to go. I want to go to the blouse black high school follow my oldest sister, but my dad said to me, I was 14, you said you have a responsibility to go to central, to do well, to take [00:20:00] advantage of everything that school has to offer you.
[00:20:03] And you know why little girl he said, because you have two younger siblings and how are they going to look at you? If you don’t have the courage to do this. And even at 14, that just stayed with me. It stays with me today. And, even though it was tough and, , there were only about 300 black kids at a school that had over 2000 students and sometime we went visible and sometimes we had to really struggle to get our voices heard.
[00:20:36] I’d always remember. I had two little sisters at home and, I had to do well. So, , it’s that the tone, if you will, of my entire life, my parents were teachers. My father was the first black sister superintendent, a little rock school district for personnel. My mother was one of four teachers that integrated white schools here in little rock.
[00:20:59] [00:21:00] So I had these wonderful role models. I’ve just looked up to and it made us strong. They always told us that I laughed should be one of service that no matter what we do in our lives always serve your community. And that’s what we did, but it was rough. I mean, we’d go to school. It was clear. People didn’t want us there.
[00:21:21] Sometimes teachers wouldn’t call on us. , the black students would meet at the end of the day to walk home together. So we wouldn’t get booked. it was hard. It was hard. But when we graduated from central, we graduated with such incredible pride. we got through it, we did it, and it really helped us in our choices to go to college.
[00:21:46] And, this group went to college and many of us, I wasn’t first celebration, but many of my classmates were first generation college bound So it was, tough, but [00:22:00]
[00:22:01] Derrell: obviously as a student, like you just talked about, a mom, a grandmother, you have been a champion for greater educational opportunity.
[00:22:09] Can you talk specifically about being a mother and advocating for your own children in DC and the barriers she faced there as you were trying to lead and sort of like organize parents in favor of school choice in the
[00:22:23] Virginia: district, I can’t, I have three children Michael Myesha, William.
[00:22:29] My two older kids were really academically, well, every parent says this, but academically gifted and they were easy as long as I was, they knew I was by their side. Then they did their homework and they worked hard as they, made their way, they found role models. They found, we found programs that would benefit them, but it was still hard, but it was, it could be done, by the time my youngest child, women to middle [00:23:00] school, I started seeing changes in the traditional public school system and how they were receiving kids and how kids were doing.
[00:23:08] I lived in a community that was tough. It was pretty tough. a lot of drug problems, a lot of crime, you know, and additionally, there were just numbers and numbers of single mothers that were trying to make it. And even though we try to help each other, it was hard. but I knew as I watched my youngest child hit the streets and I watched the drug dealers.
[00:23:33] For him and buy him things. I knew that something needed to be done. Didn’t know what to do, didn’t know how to do it, but I did know that I wasn’t going to allow my 13, 14 year old child to be pulled into the streets that the district and become just another. Oh, boy, that was a statistic he’s in jail, dead or string out or whatever.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] And, it’s really interesting because I was the behind the scenes mother drought, and I know people obviously they’re right, but I was, was not a speaker. I was not that person. That was the president of the, anything. I would take the cupcakes up there out. Have little parties for the kids, but I wasn’t, aggressive.
[00:24:22] I was a bit of an introvert, but all that said, when I looked at my youngest child and I saw him not able to survive in what the society was, offering him at the time. I had to learn how to use my voice. It was terrifying for me to stand in front of people. at that point we started going to PTA means education, any kind of education meeting.
[00:24:49] We started the Tinder and I had to say something because we were all sitting there watching our two. And that’s kind of how I got into it, talking to [00:25:00] other parents in the neighborhood. We leave that we had to fight for our kids. And don’t know, somehow I got elected leader. I figured that when I, yeah, but, you speak on our behalf and, we’ll be there with you.
[00:25:13] We’ll stay as shoulder to shoulder with you, Virginia, but we need you to be the person it speaks. I had to learn how to do it. I had to learn how to open my mouth and tell people how I felt. And then as we began to talk to people and talk to local elected officials, most of the time, just us or we talk to educators.
[00:25:36] didn’t want to deal with us. So we talked to talk to people in the community and said, oh, y’all do this for a while. And then you’ll back off. Who cares? What happened to these kids? after we stopped that happened, it became clear that we had. And, uh, we had soldiers, and I used to tell the parents all the time, don’t get confused.
[00:25:57] We are soldiers and the more [00:26:00] we talked and the more we visited with people, and the more often that people dismissed them, the stronger we got the tougher. And by the time I started talking to members of Congress, we would talk, we thought we knew something and we would add to it. we knew a little bit and we keep adding people to it.
[00:26:21] And at one point we were out in the community and parents, primarily low income black and Hispanic parents would say, here comes the educational.
[00:26:36] I thought that’s great because their recognizing me as somebody that they could work with. You know, I mean, too many people go into poor communities are safe. We want to help them. And then they never come back or they want too much from them. I just wanted to stand shoulder to shoulder with them and help their children.
[00:26:56] And so we built army. We did it. [00:27:00] DOR how’s that house barbershop, that barbershop, that community center back community solar, we built an army. So
[00:27:09] Derrell: you have one more for me, and then I’m going to let Gerard chime in. And I know he’s going to say he likes you as much as I do, but he’ll be lying. Cause he can’t.
[00:27:23] you’ve received national attention for being among the prime movers with the DC voucher program. Would you discuss the steps that took to mobilize DC parents working with policy makers, politicians that successfully getting congressional support? I know it’s a little bit of what you just talked about, but can you like dig in a tiny bit more for the
[00:27:43] Virginia: list?
[00:27:44] I will draw, one of the things about it is once we have started, and once we built this group of people, we didn’t know where to go with us. And so at that point we found out that there were national groups, they assi, it towards Freeman foundation or [00:28:00] others who were looking for parents, they could stay in.
[00:28:06] They had wonderful ideas and wonderful hopes and dreams. They were, , talking about policy and all this stuff, but what they didn’t have was the pair people that will be in the beneficiaries of anything they were trying to, that would be the beneficiaries. And so I believe in coalitions, I really do don’t know where it came from, but I do, I believe that you got to align yourself with people that believe as you.
[00:28:32] And so we did, we talked to, supporters all over the country, actually, DC is the fishbowl. So once a group of parents were engaged and involved in getting the word out that this was something they wanted, it was not difficult to , talk to people. so we talked to all of those groups and then.
[00:28:55] Uh, member the card was, which is kind of a funny story. I have, we’ve got decided with [00:29:00] members of Congress. We got a call from a member of Congress. Jeff, like actually, and he called and said, I’m thinking about poses scholarship program for DC. And I said, okay. And he said, I heard that you have a group of parents that understand what this is all about now.
[00:29:19] And yeah, he said, you think you can breathe five or six? Our teen parents to stand behind me while I made this announcement about this program. And I said, absolutely hung the phone up and was not sure how we were going to do this. getting people up on Capitol hill. Most of them that never been there before at nine o’clock in the morning, but we put a call out to the parents.
[00:29:43] We had been working on. and then prayed. And in that morning, the next morning at nine o’clock, there were a hundred parents there and I think it was right at that moment that members of Congress who had some interest in providing a [00:30:00] scholarship program or a voucher program for DC took a seriously, you know, when a hundred parents.
[00:30:07] So. And nine o’clock in the morning to say we want something different for our children. We want something better for our children and this man. Who we didn’t know, said that he could do this. And at that point, other members of Congress contacted us, but we provided the hill. we put on our little DC parents for school choice t-shirts and we went to them.
[00:30:30] It wasn’t a house, we made ourselves clean but I think it was such a collaborative effort. and that made a big difference for us when you are trying to make a difference in the world to change something or you’re on a quest or whatever. When you notice that there are people that believe in you, that support you, really helps move it along.
[00:30:53] Hey,
[00:30:54] GR: Virginia. Good to hear your voice.
[00:30:55] Virginia: I heard you
[00:30:58] GR: doing well happy new year, [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Virginia: happy new year today. So Virginia,
[00:31:03] GR: let’s talk about the days you just mentioned these days. There’s a lack of bipartisan consensus on K-12 education policy while DC seems as divided ever. Could you talk about your experience with DC politicians and what school choice advocates need to do today to build on the work?
[00:31:25] Virginia: we’ve known each other a lot of time, but been through a lot together. And I know we’re talking about, one of the first years that we were really fighting hard and really, really involved. I had the opportunity to put together a dinner with support from wonderful people and members of Congress, to bring it was 500 parents to a historically black church in DC.
[00:31:49] to talk about school choice, to talk about, what they needed, what they wanted. And I think that was one of the biggest starts to get in peoples to [00:32:00] begin to believe in us. And, there was several members of Congress, this boat, there was several heads of school choice organizations.
[00:32:07] There were lots of supporters, but the beauty, there was 500 parents and kids. and it was amazing. And so I think those kind of things, when people begin to think, you care about them enough to bring them together and to talk to them, with respect and to hear what they have to say, you can build mountains.
[00:32:31] GR: Absolutely. You can deal with mountains. Here’s a up question. You’ve written two books. Talk to us about the process and why you decided.
[00:32:39] Virginia: first book, voices choices, the second chances. I wrote, because I wanted to leave the information for other parents on how we did it. I mean, the fact of the matter is we built an army and we’re going, but we had to sit down and think about how did we get.
[00:32:57] Yeah, we had a lot of wonderful people [00:33:00] supporting us, but we realized at that time there were lots and lots of parents around the countries that this seemed to be, it seemed too much. and so they, weren’t going to be willing to step out there and do that. So I wrote the first book, which I love and, it’s kind of a, step-by-step how you get.
[00:33:23] And it’s got antidote on things that we did parents around the country had told me they have so much fun reading that as they’re building their earnings. so that was really a great book, but I wanted the world to know how strong the parents were and how hard they fought. And in that was a way , of getting that out, because I think it’s important for parents to be encouraged, but they also need to know how to do this. with. Just came out in 2019 actually [00:34:00] after the movie came out, I wrote as a. pardon to the movie, you know, movies are beautiful and I love this. I’m very proud of this Virginia.
[00:34:10] And so are the parents that I’ve worked with through the years, it tells a great story of a parent activist and, being courageous, all parents and which I love. but every time I went out with the movie to speak, somebody would say, tell us more of what happened.
[00:34:30] You know, tell us a little bit more. Can you name names? And of course I would say no, but we decided in the process of making a movie. Yeah. Then we should , write a book about it. And, another question that people always ask me is how did you get into this? And, and what gives you your inspiration?
[00:34:50] And, my family gives me my inspiration. My great grandfather was. Who bought his family out of slavery into freedom and, , [00:35:00] oh one first bakery owned by a black man in little rock, Arkansas. Hi. You know, I started with this incredible family As many of us have, and we’ve been lucky enough to be able to trace our ancestry, so I wanted to write something and I knew I was getting older and I didn’t know how much longer I was going to be out there fighting for anything.
[00:35:24] And I wanted to leave something to parents and kids and Mackie. And my nieces and nephews, that told not only a history of family whose whole purpose in life was to serve communities. My great-grandfather started church in little rock, the still exist to this day. I wanted to write that part, which is the legacy part.
[00:35:52] but I also wanted to tell a little bit more about the fight, and even though accident name everybody’s that supported us, I [00:36:00] was able to name a few people that supported us And this is a great picture of us. Gerard went to the department of education in the book. I wanted people to see that, I mean, we were soldiers, where are we not?
[00:36:16] And, you and me and Howard and Kevin, I was the only girl. And, , it’s been an amazing journey. So I wrote the second book to, recognize. And to thank all of those people who have been by my side for 20 years. And you’re
[00:36:33] GR: telling them this story during black history month and talked about your grandfather being the slave African school has been so important to us, from the beginning.
[00:36:45] So thank you for telling that here’s the last question. There is a Virginia and a Virgil in Charlottesville, Virginia and lake Charles, Louisiana, and Los Angeles in Minneapolis. Every community has a Virginia and a [00:37:00] Virgil. What do you say to them as they think about taking on this challenge for their children, knowing what you know today,
[00:37:08] Virginia: I’m so glad you said that.
[00:37:09] Cause I say it all the time. I was not. The only one doing this. So he asked me during that time, there were thousands that were around the country that were doing it, that were leading efforts to get people to speak up on behalf of their children and the fight for the children. And as similarly, nowadays, when I’m out and about, and I’m talking to parents and you know, it’s been amazing because during the pandemic people have called me and written me and found me on Facebook or somehow contacted.
[00:37:40] And what I say to them is be strong, stand strong, use your voice to stand up for your children. And I have been so delighted to see so many of them that are doing it virtually, and now many getting out. And so I say all tolerate parents, believe that you can do this [00:38:00] believe, then stand strong, use your voice to speak up.
[00:38:03] You have every week. To speak out on behalf of your children and the men and women that are out there doing that. Parents, aunts, uncles, grandmas, supporters, those are the people that I say, you know, believe my motto has always been hope, love, and dignity. Always. I always said that. And that’s what I say to people.
[00:38:24] Now, hold your head up. Don’t let anybody turn you around. That’s key. And just to say, Don’t let anybody turn you around. I learned that I couldn’t do what I set my heart to do, and nobody could have told me 20 years ago that we would even be having this conversation. And there’s so many incredible things that , happened on my life journey.
[00:38:49] I would say on you. And I’ll probably be raising my three kids with DC and they’d be okay. They’d be grown now. I was privileged to fight onset all the soldiers that have, fought for children [00:39:00] over the years and continue to fight. That’s what I tell them. You know, it’s funny because I never thought of myself this way, but I become that all grandma or auntie, you know, people call and say, can you give me some advice?
[00:39:16] Can you, , , Uplift our group. Can you say something that sparks some energy and I relished that role. I love it. I mean, I, hope that I will continue for as long as I’m able to be that, to this, parents and kids, you know, because I will never stop as long as I’m able to. So like taking on the new role as somebody who.
[00:39:41] GR: We’ll share from your book, a passage to share with us the kind of wisdom you’re talking about before we
[00:39:47] Virginia: head out, I am okay. I had to reread the book and I cried all morning, but this is one thing I want to share. , this from school choice, a [00:40:00] legacy to tape format on chill. I would have done anything to give them opportunities in life, the same opportunities my parents and ancestors has struggled to give up family.
[00:40:16] When I saw invested, I fought against it just like momma and daddy had done decades before. When I saw doors closed to me or to others because of our race or income. I joined with other parents to open those doors and encouraged children to run through them and seize opportunity. And that is from school legacy.
[00:40:46] GR: Well, you’ve had a lot of moms and dads crying at night for excitement, because what you’ve done is to help open up the doors of opportunity in so many cities, in addition to DC. but there are also people who are going to read your books and watch miss [00:41:00] Virginia, and also cry because they said, well, She showed us the way, if she can do it, then we can do it.
[00:41:06] So on behalf of everyone here at, the learning curve and all the people who’ve benefited from your wisdom and your sacrifices, and we have to admit the sacrifices because there’s things you sacrifice personally, professionally and financially that we’ll never know about to get us here. So we want to thank you for your work and know you always have friends here at the learning curve.
[00:41:27] Virginia: Oh, thank you all so much for having me. This has been a pleasure, again, to my favorite people on the planet and, call me anytime, but it has been my privilege to go on this journey.
[00:41:39] GR: Thanks. Take care.
[00:41:41] GR: [00:42:00] Well, we’re now going to go to our Tweet of the week and it looks like we’re staying on the east coast. So this is from Philadelphia schools of February six. It says that the ground. Who are in CTE and S career technical education. We are offering the opportunity for you to earn an industry [00:43:00] recognized certification that may not have been obtained due to COVID-19 closures, read more below.
[00:43:06] And of course, they go into the story for students in Philadelphia. We’ve talked about your system, a number of times on the show. Cara and I have identified some of the great things that Philadelphia was doing. Also some of the challenges they are giving you an opportunity to focus on CTE, again, career technical education for thousands of students.
[00:43:25] This can be an opportunity into middle-class opportunities, and it also will give you an opportunity to make money and to do some things right after high school. So glad to see Philadelphia doing that in a hope families in the city, join that. Next week’s guest is Mark Bauerlein, from Emory University.
[00:43:43] He has got a very interesting title, somewhat say provocative, the title, The Dumbest Generation. I’ll leave it at that. Well, Derrell as usual. It’s always good to, break bread with you, , in different ways. And so glad you’re involved with the work with 50 CAN. Let us know what we can do here on the learning curve to support you, support the organization and to support the families that you consider to be important.
[00:44:07] Derrell: Always, sir, as always thank you for having me.
[00:44:10] GR: All right. Take care.
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