Catholic schools are closing their doors all across America, leaving future generations with nowhere to turn for the high-quality academics and values-based education so many families are seeking. The number of students attending Catholic schools in the US fell from about 5.2 million in 1965 to around two million in 2008.
Pioneer Institute believes these schools are worth preserving. For over a decade, we have raised our voice in support of these excellent academic options, and tools such as tax credit scholarships that would enable more families to attend.
Pioneer has held public forums, published research on the benefits of Catholic education, on successful models such as Cristo Rey, and on policy changes that would stop the Massachusetts education department from depriving religious school students of special needs services and school nurses. The Institute has also convened key stakeholders, appeared in local and national press, filed amicus briefs, produced a feature a documentary film, and much more.
This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Cara Candal and Gerard Robinson talk with Dr. Robert Alter, Emeritus Professor of Hebrew and Comparative Literature at the University of California at Berkeley, and author of the landmark three-volume book, The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary. As Jews around the world celebrate Passover this week, Dr. Alter shares why the Hebrew Bible is probably the most influential book in human history, and the larger lessons 21st century teachers and students should draw from its timeless wisdom. They also discuss the text as a record of the Jewish people, and vital historical lessons of persecution, resilience, and survival. Professor Alter describes how the Psalms and the Book of Exodus’ stories of liberation and Moses’ leadership inspired several of the major figures of the Civil Rights Movement. The interview concludes with Dr. Alter reading from his trilogy.
Stories of the Week: In California, K-12 public school enrollment has declined below 6 million for the first time in over two decades, with COVID accounting for only some of the loss. New Brookings research explores whether major federal aid packages directed to schools during COVID, and after the 2008 Great Recession, have been used for the intended purpose.
Guest
Dr. Robert Alter is the Class of 1937 Emeritus Professor of Hebrew and Comparative Literature at the University of California, Berkeley. He started his career as a writer at Commentary Magazine, where he was for many years a contributing editor. Professor Alter has written twenty-eight books, including The Art of Biblical Narrative (1981); The Art of Biblical Poetry (1985); The Five Books of Moses: A Translation with Commentary (2004); The Book of Psalms: A Translation with Commentary (2007); and Ancient Israel: The Former Prophets: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings: A Translation with Commentary (2013). Most recently, he completed the three-volume book, The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary (2018), of which The New York Times wrote, “[Alter’s] achievement is monumental, marked by literary grace and intelligent commentary.” In 2009, he received the Robert Kirsch Award from the Los Angeles Times for lifetime contribution to American letters. He earned his bachelor’s degree in English from Columbia University, and his master’s degree and doctorate from Harvard University in comparative literature, as well as being awarded honorary degrees by Yale University and Hebrew University.
The next episode will air on Weds., April 27th, with Dr. Wilfried Schmid, Dwight Parker Robinson Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at Harvard University, who played a major role in the drafting of the 2000 Massachusetts Mathematics Curriculum Framework, and served on the U.S. National Mathematics Advisory Panel in 2008.
Tweet of the Week
What states require in their educational standards has long-lasting effects on individual attitudes and occupational choices. https://t.co/kSPgWw0E4i
— Education Next (@EducationNext) April 6, 2022
News Links
California public school enrollment drops below 6 million mark
https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2022/04/california-public-school-enrollment/
Has federal crisis spending for K-12 schools served its intended objectives?
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
[00:00:00] GR: Welcome back to another exciting session with Cara and I on the learning curve. For those of you who celebrated the holiday weekend, hope you’ve had a great time with family, with friends or just yourself. We had a chance to do some great things to family, and it was good to be in a faith setting with people that I haven’t had a chance to be with in over a year and a half.
[00:00:44] So it was good on my end. What about you?
[00:00:47] Cara: we had a very nice Easter. We also celebrate Easter. Thank you for asking. It was, lovely. I ate too much candy, so did the dog, by the way, the dog had gotten into Easter [00:01:00] baskets before the children even found them. So. A little bit of anxiety because you know, dogs are not supposed to eat chocolate.
[00:01:07] she’s fine. So no worries there. But yesterday is we talked a little bit about last week was running of the Boston marathon and I had several friends running at no point in time was I inspired to run because we lived right before what they call. Heartbreak hill, which anybody who has probably ever run any marathon has heard of Boston’s heartbreak hill.
[00:01:28] And so you could just see, this is like the point in the marathon, Gerard worried about mile. I think we’re right after mile 20, where you can see people like making like the calculus going on in their brain. Like, am I just gonna stop now and throw in the towel or am I going to persist? So it was quite a display of.
[00:01:47] think a marathon for me watching I’ve run half marathons in my life, but never marathons watching people persist through that kind of pain is just such a display [00:02:00] of mental toughness. You know, it really shows you the human capacity to overcome pain. When you see people about to ascend heartbreak hill at mile 20 of a marathon.
[00:02:11] So yeah, to me, that’s always just, and thankfully. It was a beautiful day for it. Probably a little too hot actually for the runners. It was in the mid fifties. I think for me, that’s too hot.
[00:02:23] GR: Just brutal. Yeah.
[00:02:25] Cara: Well, I like to run in the thirties, but you know, yeah, of
[00:02:28] GR: course, of
[00:02:29] Cara: course , it’s the best kind of running and I bet you people will, will agree with me, listeners, send us an email for your career or get us on Twitter, but anyway, beautiful day.
[00:02:37] and really. Such a wonderful event for not just the city of Boston, but the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, especially those communities that are along the route. it’s a feeling unlike any other.
[00:02:48] GR: And let me give a shout out to UVA. President Jim Ryan who ran his 11th straight Boston marathon.
[00:02:55] And this time he’s doing it for veterans as many of our listeners know he’s the former. Dean of the [00:03:00] Harvard graduate school of education, but he is an avid runner and he is doing it for a good call. So I want to make sure as someone who works UVA, wanna give him a president of the shout-out impressive.
[00:03:10] Cara: Jared, have you ever thought about, have you ever run a marathon or thought about running.
[00:03:14] GR: No. What I do is watch it on TV or when friends of mine decided to do so, I’m like I cheer on I’ll donate money to their calls, but I am not a runner unless chased or chasing someone. Cause I need something. But other than that, no running legs here.
[00:03:31] Cara: Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s something I’ve thought about it. I think I might’ve mentioned last time I ran a half marathon, seven months pregnant. Yeah. Cause that’s a good idea. Especially when, especially, you know what it was, it’s my competitive spirit. My husband was going to do it. And of course at the time when we signed up for the marathon, I don’t even know if I knew I was pregnant yet.
[00:03:52] but once, I discovered that he was going to do it, I was like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I’m going to do this and I’m going to beat you,[00:04:00]
[00:04:01] but I would never do it again. I finished that half marathon and I thought to myself that is an activity I will never engage in again, as long as I live. So. It’s stupid because I hadn’t trained. Anyhow. We’ve got quite a show ahead of us as always. I’m just curious to know what you’re going to be ranting about this.
[00:04:21] GR: So my rant is about my home state, where I grew up California. And this is from Cal matters. Joe Hong is the author and it says California public school enrollment drops below 6 million mark. So for the first time, since the start of this century, California has fewer than 6 million students attending public schools.
[00:04:44] And this isn’t only a drop in public schools, writ large. Charter schools also saw a decline for the first time since 2014. Now when the department of education began to desegregate data, they identify a few points. So for [00:05:00] example, kindergarten enrollment is up, but nowhere near the pre pandemic level this year, now the schools are open kindergarten enrollment was up by more than 7,000 students recovering slightly from the loss last year.
[00:05:14] 60,000 students. Now on the private school side, there are more than 9,000 students. Who’ve enrolled in private school, roughly a 1.7% increase, but that doesn’t explain the major exit is from public schools. So the author makes a couple of good points. We said these, hold on to number one. He reminds us that enrollment in California was on a steady decline for more than a decade, even before the pandemic.
[00:05:42] And what reason did he name? He said mostly due to the lack of affordable housing. And so. People began to move and change. Well, this brings me to the point to the president of the California charter schools association, Myrna casserole. She said [00:06:00] this to the client also illustrates how charter schools are facing the same statewide challenges as our non-public charter school or non-charter friends.
[00:06:09] And she’s called for equitable funding. And so through the article goes down for how many first graders were here. But here’s one thing, even though the numbers for kindergarten went up enrollment numbers for first graders drop 18,000 students this year. And it raises questions because they said, wait a minute, we had a nice enrollment last year.
[00:06:33] So students who qualify for kindergarten, who now qualify for first grade. Thousands of them are not coming back. And when the California department of education was asked for a comment it said it wouldn’t comment on where those students went and some school districts are trying to find an answer.
[00:06:49] So at the state level, the governor said, well, I tell you what in California funding is driven in part by enrollment and attendance. So governor Newsome said, [00:07:00] what he wants to do is to allow districts to use a three year average attendance rate to calculate next year’s funding. The reason for looking at three years, it would bring you pre pandemic pre dropping numbers.
[00:07:13] And it will look at attendance versus enrollment because for holster reasons, as the authors identify, we’ve lost a lot of students and department of ed. Cannot necessarily identify who, what, where, when or why. There are also some privacy reasons to consider. There’s also a state Senator who introduced him to bill eight 30 to help with funding.
[00:07:35] So I will buy that affordable housing is one factor. do I, there is a drop in the number of students in California, but I decided to even do a deeper dive. And so it took a little. Article in the Los Angeles times from December 18th, 2021. And in that article, the author says the California population.
[00:07:57] Yes. Continues the client and [00:08:00] is putting in perspective. well, the drop below 6 million, isn’t just a drop for students. Many of those students are in homes or communities where there’s also a drop. So California itself has a decline. Why? Well, one driven by lower immigration to fewer deaths, well, fewer births and some pandemic deaths.
[00:08:21] And so I said, wow. So yeah, decline in students. Affordable housing. Got it. There’s also a drop in the population, at least according to one author, Lord immigration got, if you were birthed comma, pandemic deaths. And I said, well, that’s going to have an impact on the state as well. Well, what people may not know is that for the first time, in the 171 year history of California, since this data has come out and identify that not only the California.
[00:08:49] Have a drop in population as a result, it actually lost a congressional seat moving from 53 house districts to 52. Now that may not mean much to people outside of [00:09:00] California, but it matters a lot to people in California. Why? Well, one fewer state Merck in the house means one fewer vote in the electoral college, which helps decide who’s going to be president.
[00:09:12] There’s going to be less than 1.5 trillion in federal money distributed to the state each year. So I said, but there’s gotta be something other than that, or in addition to, but most of the answers that I’ve read so far have a lot to do with what’s taking place in. And then I’m sad to read an article by one of my colleagues at the American enterprise Institute Mark Perry, and he’s written for years about why people decide to leave states.
[00:09:42] And what he decided to do is to look at the number of view halls that leave one state and go to another. And so what he’s identified is that between 2010 and 2019, that The top 10, mostly blue states lost 845,000 [00:10:00] citizens. While the top 10, most red states actually gained a million. And so I did a deeper dive.
[00:10:06] I said, well, where are the states? So in 2021, the top 10 inbound states are Florida followed by Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Idaho, Utah, Nevada. And. Some of our listeners, won’t like this California, a, the number one outbound state followed by New York, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Louisiana, Maryland uh, Y and Minnesota, as well as Michigan, your former home state.
[00:10:36] So I put into perspective, California, student enrollment. By 6% is influenced by a lot of factors. Affordable housing is one, immigration is another, so our pandemic deaths as well as birth rates, but let’s also put in mind that people are leaving the state and going to states that have lower taxes and have had a [00:11:00] higher, in fact, a lore, unemployment rate.
[00:11:02] States that are providing tax breaks for businesses. So when I look at the numbers, it’s an education discussion, but it’s a broader discussion about demographics taxes and public policy. I’m
[00:11:16] Cara: very good. Blue states are getting nervous when they hear you say that, especially talking about declining census data and losing representatives.
[00:11:25] And but I think we know it’s true. And we know that a lot of these states where you’ve named where folks are going have been working hard to get folks to there. And we can talk about, I think you’re right. It starts with an education conversation, but it’s different than that because some of those states.
[00:11:38] I also have a lot of work to do on their education systems. But I want to go back Gerard and ask you a question about governor Newsome’s fix here because now granted, we are coming out of a pandemic enrollment seems unstable bloody bloody blah, but sounds like you’ve got some pretty good numbers that this is a pre pandemic problem, right?
[00:11:57] Enrollment’s been going down for a long time for many of the [00:12:00] reasons that you named. So. In your mind is the right answer to say, well, let’s just pack things for awhile and make this. I mean, I, do listen. I do, to some extent, get the argument. wish that we didn’t have to make it because I wish our school districts were more efficient and less lumbering than they are because they are these lumbering bureaucracies that don’t seem to be able to adjust really well when suddenly they don’t have as many kids in the schools they thought they did, but to take an approach that sort of past.
[00:12:28] Funding for kids who weren’t there over a longer period of time. I wonder about the extent to which that really solves the problem, which is school districts need to adjust. They need to be nimble California, unless it’s suddenly housing stock, becomes much more affordable unless a range of other things happen.
[00:12:46] He’s probably not going to recover its population in the near term. And so what does that mean for. Spending money on things like propping up empty facilities. We have this problem here in Boston that money is not necessarily going to kids and going [00:13:00] to their education. So I’m curious as to what you think of that.
[00:13:04] GR: I accept his proposal as a stop gap measure to try to hold harmless schools for one to two years. So for that, I’m fine with the green length. I also know that California’s got billions of dollars and cares money that’s going to the state for some students, in fact who may not be there now. And so I don’t want money to be a reason why the state can’t move forward to try to fix this.
[00:13:30] So in this. Um, A green light on it. You’re a
[00:13:33] Cara: green light on it. Okay. Yeah. think that it’s hard not to be in the short term. My question is, will they change things in the term? You know, we know that yeah. Now these states could be using this opportunity to say, Hey, here’s an idea. Let’s turn towards a model of student centered funding.
[00:13:52] It doesn’t seem to be. The table.
[00:13:56] GR: Yeah, no, that’s actually a good point. No, they, won’t change because [00:14:00] there are no legislative incentives to do so, uh, California funding model is really different than most states because there’s also a community college dynamic as well. So no, they won’t go to a we call it backpack model of the money following the stigma.
[00:14:14] They won’t do that. The question will be two years from now. Are you going to continue to keep attendance and enrollment when you get to year three? And you’re saying attendance and not enrollment are now we have a problem because you have go students and that students were actually there. So I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt for two years, but I don’t expect a major push, but in the article, superintendents were saying we’re having to compete with each other for students and you’re competing.
[00:14:44] Like private schools and like charter schools and like cities you’re competing for talent. So it is a interesting story. But this is a story about California dreaming in reverse,
[00:14:57] Cara: and dear they insert [00:15:00] competition into education. It’s not bad. Well, you know, you mentioned this also, I mean, my ears perk up , like you said, California’s got a bunch of money and a bunch of cares funding.
[00:15:12] And with kids leaving, they should have extra to spend on the kids. Yes. Maybe, I don’t know, my, article, it’s a question is will they spend it on things that will ultimately benefit kids? I’ve got this really interesting piece. It’s from the Brookings Institute blog, the brown center chalkboard by Kenneth shores and Matthew Steinberg.
[00:15:30] And they’re blogging about a research paper they just did. And I just it’s really cool. I mean, I think that, you know, Three really broad questions, which I sort of love. And they’re looking at main question they asked is, has federal crisis spending served its intended objectives. That’s the title of the blog.
[00:15:51] And the big question they’re trying to ask, and then they’ve got three sub-questions here. So they’re looking at American recovery and reinvestment funds. Remember. [00:16:00] Remember that. Yeah, the American recovery and reinvestment act after the great recession. And they’re also looking of course at Esser funds.
[00:16:08] So as a reminder, a R R a funds were about 50 billion and the whole purpose was to give money to the state. So they could simply like get school budgets up to pre-recession levels. And then of course, as our funds, we’re talking $190 billion Gerard. And so they wanted to look. Three things specifically, the first was where the funds allotted sufficient to basically meet the policy goal, which in this case is to offset learning loss where the funds allocated to the districts with most need.
[00:16:40] And were they used in a way that would help districts meet the purported policy goals. So again, to recover learning loss, so on all counts. And this is a really interesting example of us. I mean, why are we were asking this question about a R a now and there were very few studies, there were couple done at the time to see like, [00:17:00] okay, so what difference did it make, if any, and it’s not to say that it didn’t make some difference.
[00:17:04] It did. I certainly have memories of entering schools to do research studies after they had received ARR funds and Nam. There were a lot of nice looking Smartboards hanging in those schools that nobody knew. But, there were some definite good infrastructure changes that happened. And I think, but these authors conclude that if you really look at.
[00:17:23] these questions, were the funds sufficient to offset learning loss where they allocated to districts most in me, by and large, the answer is no. So surprise, surprise, right? Under a R a, it seemed to work a bit in the beginning, but really at the end of the day, they said the funds weren’t enough to get the districts that needed it most back up to pre-recession spending levels.
[00:17:44] Now we know we’ve had lots of people on the show that does tell you spending isn’t everything, budgets, aren’t everything, but. In the context of a budget, taking a sudden and big hit. I remember being on the board of a charter school at this time and us realizing like, wow, halfway through the year, luckily this all states, [00:18:00] all schools were experiencing this and, and state had to help make up for it, but we really taking it.
[00:18:04] It was a big budget impact and he had tough decisions to make them very short notice. And so there really weren’t enough funds under a R a this is fascinating to me under. What the authors conclude is that actually well, first of all, if the policy goal is to offset learning loss, we don’t know the extent of learning loss still.
[00:18:26] We’re still trying to figure it out. And we don’t know the extent of learning loss, where one thing that we do know is that as extra funds were being allocated states, actually weren’t taking as big of a budgetary hit. As we’d predicted they would in the beginning from COVID right. Budgets actually turned out to be pretty.
[00:18:47] Okay. But under if you look at the most dramatic predictions, , around learning loss, you would still come up a little bit short in terms of are the funds allocated enough to actually address learning loss. So let’s [00:19:00] put that in the bucket of, we will see the other really interesting question around.
[00:19:05] We’re the funds getting to where they needed to be. That is the districts that were hurt as tit the districts with the students that were already suffering the greatest, gaps in learning. And in there, the story again is very interesting because under a R R a it wasn’t so much targeted.
[00:19:21] At we’re going to target low income districts because states were already doing that. They sort of handed the money over to states and then states follow their own formulas. And a lot of states were already giving more funding to lower income districts, but under Sr, remember, we distributed those funds using title one model.
[00:19:38] So theoretically the districts who needed the most should have gotten the most and by and large, that did happen. But here’s the thing. Learning loss. We were in this unprecedented. Everybody stays at home and learns online and loses learning pandemic. So what it turns out to be is that if you run the models, it’s the district.
[00:19:55] That receives the least amount of money. Those that were more well lost, they arguably still [00:20:00] suffered the same, for example, like years of learning loss as other kids. So it’s a real question as to whether these funds realized their stated goal, right. Or the government’s stated goal, but here’s the final one.
[00:20:13] And this is. The kicker, the final question was, were the funds actually, were they working to meet their purported goal? And here’s a little quote from the article around what we learned about a R a from several studies at the time. And that was at the end of the day, to understand whether or not these funds were actually impacting learning loss that we needed greater transparency, greater accountability.
[00:20:41] And more data. Now, if you look at what we’re struggling with now, I don’t know if you’ve read some of these district plans on how escrow funds are being sent Gerard, but I have, and nine times out of 10, they tell you absolutely nothing. This is I’m reading this article also on the same day. Us ed has announced that they’re going to be having a [00:21:00] summit profiling, how districts are spending their funds.
[00:21:02] I’m sure some of them are spending them well, but at the end of the day, we really don’t know how those funds are being spent. They had certain parameters, but you could probably drive a truck through most of those parameters. So I think that my prediction Gerard is going to be that 10 years from now. If you and I are still talking about this.
[00:21:21] We are going to find out that the studies conclude we need greater transparency, greater accountability, and better quality data to figure out whether or not this, how much did I say at the beginning? Oh, I’m sorry. $190 billion in SRP. Actually did anything just I’m learning loss. So that’s my story. I highly recommend this study and this blog to our listeners, because it’s an interesting one.
[00:21:49] And I don’t think we should forget that these districts are going to be spending extra funds for at least the next few years, Gerard. And they’ve got a long way to go and doing it the right way.
[00:21:58] GR: So much of what you [00:22:00] said. I’m going to say ditto, ditto, ditto. It’s a shame. And they actually look 10 years in the future and have a conclusion that’s going to be 80% in the ballpark.
[00:22:09] 10% of be totally off or the additional 10% of the worse in terms of the prediction. But you know what, when we look back through different presidents administration is, and we see the different theme-based investment to make work. You’re going to come back to. Yep. He didn’t work well, it didn’t do this, Yeah. I just leave it at that because it’s just, this is not a hard thing to do. You can actually follow the money. When we look at charter school malfeasance, we know every dime. We know every corner that was cut when a school that has a voucher school or a school receiving private school funds. When it’s time to close the newspaper, we’ll run an export.
[00:22:52] Telling you, how much the principal made the car? He or she drove using public funds. The amount of money that was used as kickbacks to vendors. , they’ll [00:23:00] lock the length. And when we come to traditional public schools, where’s the money going? We’re not always sure, but we as taxpayers, let this.
[00:23:09] Cara: We do, we absolutely do.
[00:23:11] And let our districts off the hooks and they educate the majority of our kids. So we should not be doing that Gerard. And also like, can we maybe just start talking about accountability on the front end? I don’t know. That’s what we do when we design policy for the most part at the state level.
[00:23:25] Let’s maybe ask ourselves that question. Hopefully we don’t find ourselves in another pandemic right away. The next time we need to make a huge investment. If there’s another coming recession, let’s remember that 190 billion. And not create regulations that you could drive a truck through.
[00:23:39] GR: So, Ooh, it just reminded me.
[00:23:42] And in terms of accountability, we know that we have a school to prison pipeline. It seems that we’re more interested in holding students accountable while they’re incarcerated and making sure the institution, the department of correction, or the department of juvenile justice to make sure they do all the things right accountable to keep the public’s money.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Great. At where, when they’re in the free world, you don’t seem to have that same level of transparency and oversight. Just my thoughts.
[00:24:06] Cara: It’s a fascinating observation. I think we need to do a whole show about that at some point. All right. But you’re right. We’ve got to bring in our fabulous guests because in just a moment, listeners, we are going to be speaking with Dr.
[00:24:16] Robert Alter and he is the Ameritas professor of Hebrew and comparative literature at the university of California, Berkeley. So we’ll be back in just a minute.[00:25:00]
[00:25:29] Welcome back learning curve listeners. We are here with Dr. Robert Alter. He is the class of 1937 emeritus professor of Hebrew and comparative literature. So university of California, Berkeley, he started his career as a writer at commentary magazine, where he was for many years, a contributing editor.
[00:25:47] Professor Alter has written 28 books, including the art of biblical narrative, the art of biblical poetry, the five books of Moses, a translation with commentary, the book of Psalms, a translation with commentary [00:26:00] ancient Israel, the former. Joshua judges, Samuel and Kings a translation with commentary. And most recently he completed the three volume book, the Hebrew Bible, a translation with commentary of which the New York times wrote alters achievement is monumental marked by literary grace and intelligent commentary.
[00:26:20] In 2009, he received the Robert Kirsch award from the Los Angeles times for lifetime contribution to American. Here in his bachelor’s degree in English, from Columbia university and his master’s degree and doctorate from Harvard university and comparative literature, as well as being awarded honorary degrees by Yale university and Hebrew university, professor Robert alter.
[00:26:41] Welcome to the learning curve.
[00:26:43] Robert Alter: I’m glad to be here.
[00:26:45] Cara: Well, we’re glad to have you. And I’d like to start by asking you about your landmark book that I just mentioned the Hebrew Bible, a translation with commentary. It turns wise praised and it’s perhaps someone say the best translation now available in print.
[00:26:59] Could you [00:27:00] share with our listeners why the Hebrew Bible is probably. Influential book. Some would say that humans have ever produced and talk about, especially for teachers and students in the 21st century. I know it’s probably hard to wrap that into one little nugget, but what would you think they should draw from its knowledge and.
[00:27:18] GR: Well,
[00:27:19] Robert Alter: the obvious explanation, why the Bible has been that influential is that both Tues and Christians conceived it over the ages to be. Divinely inspired. So it was the guidebook to living the good life and blueprint for theology or generated many different theologies on the part of different things.
[00:27:46] But to me, what is interesting is that the Bible, especially I’ll focus on the Hebrew Bible which I think is different in kind in many respects for the new Testament. It [00:28:00] seems to me that the Bible transcends it’s strictly religious theological or doctrinal function. Because it is a very rich, it is in some ways, interestingly, contradictory representation of the.
[00:28:21] People struggling with their deaths in these, with the tangle of family relationships, with politics and what that does to a human being and so on and so forth. So that that’s one reason why not the only reason. So many readers who are not believers have felt that these books speak to them that they tell them something about the human condition that they provide a certain illuminating perspective on their own [00:29:00] lives.
[00:29:00] Cara: I want to pick up on that because You said that even for non-believers, it can provide an illuminating perspective on one’s own life. I mean, especially today, even, I don’t know if this is a product of me getting older, or if it’s quite real, you know, children, my own children, I look at them and I think, wow, they’re living in a time of, feels like heightened conflict.
[00:29:21] Heightened because they’re so close. Yeah. Having this understanding of it because they have such at their fingertips, the ability to, they don’t have to go far to get a Facebook feed or an Instagram notice or whatever it is that how kids get their news today. And so there’s a real need to understand how to resolve conflict, how to be a resilient, human being and survive in the face of these great challenges.
[00:29:47] Can you maybe point to. A specific story or a specific way in which an understanding of the Bible as a record of these things can help anyone confront [00:30:00] conflict or become more resilient in life.
[00:30:02] Robert Alter: Okay. First, all as your question implies, conflict is all over the place. And the Hebrew Bible because last conflict is all over the place in our history in general and all the more so at this particular moment in time.
[00:30:22] So I would Particularly focus on what seems to me, one of the greatest narratives to be produced anywhere in the ancient world. And that’s the story of David now? Okay. You think of the medieval representations of David and Christian iconography. He has a halo around his head and he’s playing a harp.
[00:30:49] And in Jewish tradition, he’s studying the Tom motor, which of course has not been composed when he was alive. But in fact, he’s much [00:31:00] more complicated and interesting and Merck. Then all those pies representation David starts off as a charismatic young man. He’s beautiful. Everybody falls in love with them.
[00:31:16] He gets into the court, but he’s been clandestinely anointed. To become the king after Saul. And that gets into the story in a whole complicated network of political machinations. Seoul eventually becomes fixated on David and a. Paranoid way, dividends, plea, and on and off. And then once David does become.
[00:31:47] King the story of conflict is not over. his forces and up in a civil war with the 10 Northern tribes [00:32:00] and once that’s resolved he has plenty of problems with his. military commander Joe out who seems to be the power behind the throne and in many ways, manipulate David And then his own son, Absalom, rebels against them. And you serve the throne. have a figure in some ways to kind of tragic figure, because the conflict between his screen, your private person, a man who loves his father the king are irreconcilable. And yet there is the kind of. Persistence in greatness and David for all his flaws.
[00:32:43] The worst of which is murdering Uriah after David has had an adulterous relationship with you, arise life, despite all that, there is something. And [00:33:00] during and noble and heartening about him. So although I hesitate to call anything, a lesson from the Bible, you can see how reading that story.
[00:33:13] you get a sense of how are you in. with all his mistakes and all his terrible conflict can persist in history and do something with his life.
[00:33:26] GR: You spent a great deal of time talking about human conflict and that’s definitely something that’s a part of what we read. I want to talk with you about the book of Exodus.
[00:33:36] Now there’s several major leaders of the American civil rights movement. Most notably Dr. King who’s heavily influenced by and drew inspiration from the book of Exodus. Be it as themes deliberation or Moses’s leadership. What did you say to our teachers and students? Really of all faiths and political viewpoints, what can they learn from the Exodus story to better understand human cohesive?
[00:33:59] Robert Alter: [00:34:00] To begin with, there has been your listeners should be aware of a whole movement in Latin America called liberation theology, which is largely based, or at least takes this point of departure from the. Michael, what the intellectual history in
[00:34:24] advanced studies years ago wrote a book called exit this and liberation, which follows this trajectory. So I would say Peculiar about the exit, his story that is this a story of national origin, but most people’s trace their origins to some glorious triumph in the past, like think of a virtual India and the, way the founding of the Roman people.
[00:34:56] Based on or can be traced [00:35:00] back to a knee is fleeing from conquered Troy, but, in acting a grand military triumph in the Italian peninsula, by contrast the Exodus story low, it’s the origins of the people in slavery. Which is almost a shocking idea. but it’s also parroting idea that is a people who has been added to.
[00:35:29] No freedom who is been worked like dogs. And in fact is then doom by a genocidal to create affecting all the Hebrew males coming from the Pharaoh. This people. Manages with the leadership of Moses recourse to extricate itself from the house of bondage and to become a great people. So it’s moving story.
[00:35:59] [00:36:00] And as I said, different from most stories of national.
[00:36:04] GR: Well to take that a story, just another step right now, Jews all over the world is celebrating Passover, which marks the Exodus of the Israelites from slavery to Egypt. Your translation of the Hebrew Bible, as we’ve said earlier, is considered a definitive.
[00:36:20] Could you talk about what educators and young people should know about the biblical narrative around this holiday?
[00:36:27] Robert Alter: I think what they should know is pretty much what I’ve just said, look, the history of the Jews after the Bible is, well, first of all, the history of the Israelites in the Bible A series of defeats.
[00:36:44] It’s little sliver, a country sandwiched in between great empires to the east and the south that the Assyrians conquer the Northern Israelite kingdom and obliterate. [00:37:00] Eventually the Babylonians conquered that Southern kingdom, then it becomes a kind of province of the person empire. So there is defeat after defeat.
[00:37:11] And then in the post-surgical period, of course, as a diaspora people, Jews were repeatedly subject to Persecution for grumpy wide-scale massacres that wasn’t all the two shifts. It was certainly an important part. And yet every year, To sit around table and they celebrate freedom. They celebrate the fact that we have come out of the house of bondage and now we are free people.
[00:37:46] So is kind of inspiring story. And certainly that’s one of the reasons why it has grabbed all kinds of Jews year after year, every April, when Passover comes here.[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] GR: Absolutely. part of any celebration is often sacred songs are sacred poems and your book, the art of biblical poetry, you’ve written about the power of poetry.
[00:38:12] Could you talk about the influence of songs and what we can learn from it regarding the ability of words and language to inspire?
[00:38:20] Robert Alter: Okay. Now it is sometimes said, but I think it’s not persuasive that the Psalms or the origin of lyric poetry the west, but what they are and the way that I think they have spoken to readers, both pious and secular is.
[00:38:43] There is a powerful, poetic expression of anguish and desperation. There are many of the Psalms where speaker in the poem seems on the point of death. And yet at the end is [00:39:00] rescued by. which is again, the agreement’s story with a happy ending. then there are a great variety in the book of Shawn.
[00:39:10] There are exuberant celebrations of the glories of creation and as Close as any biblical poetry comes to nature, poetry, even something like nature, poetry. So all this can speak to a very wide spectrum of readers and you don’t necessarily have to be a believer to be moved by all that.
[00:39:37] GR: Absolutely. Well, speaking of moving people with words, we’d like for you to provide us. A passage of your choosing to read from one of your many books.
[00:39:49] Robert Alter: what I’d like to read is the first chapter’s not very long, it’s 16 verses of the song of songs, which I think. [00:40:00] It’s one of most remarkable collections of love poetry in all of Western literature.
[00:40:08] And one of the things that makes it so beautiful is that there’s a kind of lush sensuality, but a cast in a kind of refined, delicate poetry. And then that combination is very unusual. So I tried it, my translation, which we’ll be hearing in a moment to get something of that to keep the language come pack the way the Hebrew is to use simple.
[00:40:40] Eloquent words and to get some of the rhythm of the Hebrew. So here’s chapter one, the song of saw the first speaker is the woman and that she is answered by the young man. So this is a lot of dialogue. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth[00:41:00] for your loving is. Then Y for fragrance, your oils are goodly.
[00:41:07] Poured oil is your name. And so the young women love you too. Are, may ask you, let us run the. Has brought me to his chamber. Let us be glad and rejoice in you. Let us extol your loving beyond what rightly do they love you? And then the new poem, young woman is speaking. I am dark, but desirable a daughter says Jerusalem, like the tents of kid like Solomon’s curtain do not look on me for being.
[00:41:42] For the sun has glared on me. My mother’s sons were incense with me. They made me the keeper, the vineyards, my own vineyard. I have not kept tell me whom I love. So where are you pass to your flock at noon? Thus, I [00:42:00] go straying after the flop through your companion and he answered. If you do not know, Ferris of women go out in the tracks of the sheep and graze your goats by the shepherds shelters.
[00:42:15] And then he speaks again to my mayor about Pharaoh’s chariots. I like you, my friends, your cheeks are lovely with loop earrings. Your neck would be earrings and gold. We will make for you with silver fillings. And then she speaks while the king was on his couch. My Nard gave off and sent a Sachit of mirror is my lover to me all night between my breasts, a cluster of henna, my lover to me in the venues of.
[00:42:56] , . And then he speaks, this is the end of the chapter. Oh, [00:43:00] you were fair by friend. Oh, you are fair. Your eyes are dumped. And she says, oh, you are fair. My love for you. We’re asleep. Our bed is burdened to our house. Beams are seeded our rafters evergreen.
[00:43:19] Cara: Well, Dr. Robert alter, thank you so much. That was quite beautiful. thank you for spending this time with us today and for your wide and remarkable body of work.
[00:43:29] Robert Alter: . Thank you for hosting me. It was the place.[00:44:00]
[00:44:03] GR: And my tweet of the week comes from education. Next April 17th, 2020 to what states require in their educational standards is long lasting effects on individual attitudes and occupational choices. And the next part says the costs of canceling. Definitely worth the read.
[00:44:24] Cara: Ooh, education next, always with a good headline and love it, Gerard.
[00:44:28] I’m going to go, you know, for a run. Say if I’m going to go look at the empty thought, enjoy, enjoy this beautiful day here, but we will be back again together. Next week, we will be here with professor Wilfred Schmid and he is the Dwight Parker, Robinson emeritus professor of mathematics at Harvard.
[00:44:47] He played a major role in drafting, the 2000 Massachusetts mathematics curriculum frameworks, and has served on the U S national mathematics advisory panel. Maybe he can tell me what happened to my math [00:45:00] education, because it wasn’t pretty anyway until then Gerard have a wonderful week. It’s always lovely to share this time with you.
Recent Episodes:
Hubwonk host Joe Selvaggi talks with Pioneer research associate Andrew Mikula about the need for affordable housing near the mass transit network and the requirements and local design opportunities of the 3A zoning reform law. Read Pioneer Institute’s recent public comment on this topic.
Guest
Andrew Mikula is a Research Associate at Pioneer Institute and candidate for a Master’s in Urban Planning at Harvard University.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk. I’m Joe Selvaggi.
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. Greater Boston has among the highest housing costs in the nation. Driving many low and middle income people to live farther from its thriving job market and its mass transit network. This crisis of affordability is primarily driven by restrictive local zoning laws that discourage new, more dense and less expensive townhouses and condominiums. Massachusetts has attempted to encourage affordable housing in the past with laws like 40B, which offered developers the ability to override local zoning in towns with little or no affordable units. But in the 53 years since 40B’s passage, the law has not had the effect of allowing housing supply to keep pace with housing demand, to further address this issue. A new zoning reform law that took effect in 2021 now requires communities near MBTA stops to each zone for at least 750 multifamily units by right. Designed to overcome the weaknesses of the earlier 40B legislation, the law and the guidelines were crafted in a way that encourages local design while also ensuring the units will be affordable for working families eager to be near the transit network.
Joe Selvaggi:
This zoning act referred to as 3A continues to evolve with lawmakers soliciting input from the 175 affected communities as the best ways to blend the need for more housing, with respect for each town’s design preferences. Is 3A the right law to help address the affordable housing prices in Massachusetts, or will it prove to be insufficient to compel communities to develop viable plans for new homes? My guest today is Pioneer Institute’s research associate and candidate for a master’s degree in public planning at Harvard, Andrew Mikula. Andrew recently wrote a public comment for Pioneer on the 3A compliance guidelines in which he outlined his view on the merits of the law and where the law may need improvement to achieve its goals. When I return, I’ll be joined by Pioneer Institute’s Andrew Mikula. Okay. We’re back. This is Hubwonk, I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m pleased to welcome back to the show fellow Pioneer Institute contributor, and now candidate for a master’s degree in public planning at Harvard, Andrew Mikula. Good to have you on the show, Andrew.
Andrew Mikula:
Joe, always great to be a back on Hubwonk. Thank you.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, I enjoyed reading your public comment on the compliance guidelines for the new 3A zoning reform, maybe a dry topic for our listeners, but I hope we can make it exciting and get into some of the details. As our Hubwonk listeners know, zoning does touch many of the issues we cover on the podcast that includes the high cost of housing the benefit of mass transitfor commuters and the environment and the encouragement of our Massachusetts economy. We all want to have a good place to live that helps everyone. So let’s start off with the the case for zoning reform. Why do we need to have this thing called zoning reform in the state?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah I believe it was urban economist Ed Glaeser, who observed that reforming local land use controls is one of those rare areas in which the libertarian and the progressive agree obviously that doesn’t extend to every individual with those persuasions. But I think that it’s the kind of union of kind of advancing property rights. And also when you restrict the supply of housing, you know, wealthier people tend to bid up the price of existing units that otherwise might have remained more affordable. And so this has huge implications for who can access jobs and amenities in a given area because when you restrict the supply of housing in an area, the people who would have lived in those new units don’t just go away. They’re forced to move elsewhere, further outside of, or away from major job centers.
Andrew Mikula:
And often to communities that have, you know worse schools or higher crime, et cetera, than places with the most stringent zoning laws. So it’s really the intersection of economic opportunity property rights and also the environment because people living further away from job centers means, you know, you have to drive further to get anywhere and also communities where your push to when development isn’t allowed to kind of concentrate within the existing footprint of community. You know, that development tends to be kind of sprawling and away from transit and walkable villages.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, I’m glad you point that out. I’ll entertain my own little rant here. I’m passionate about zoning. And I think I have friends who push back both from my conservative friends on, on the one side and my progressive friends on the other I’ll remind the conservatives on the that are listening that, but we are proud of the fact that this is the land of opportunity. So we should all be working to, to enlarge the, the range of opportunity for our fellow Americans. And for those on the on the progressive side, I see many in the Le living in the leafy suburbs with those nifty on signs that say, you know, in this house, we believe they’re the same people who will have be at the, the zoning meetings and want to restrict what can be built in their community.
Joe Selvaggi:
And they, I think as you mentioned so well they don’t realize the consequence of, of limiting growth or, or building. I means only very, very affluent people can, can live in that community. And if I’ll, I’ll editorialize one little bit more in my view the, the most pernicious effects of poverty or low income is not lack of food or shelter or clothing. It’s rather the, the isolation that’s created in those communities where they have very few links to good education, good employment, or connections to those civic institutions, you know, those little platoons that, that connect us to greatest society that’ll service for the rest of our lives. So zoning reform is important to me from my perspective, because I wanna make sure that lower income Americans aren’t in a sense isolated from the society and the community and the employment world.
Joe Selvaggi:
So, so I’ll set to, you know, lay my cards on the table at the start of our conversation and, and dive in from there. So so let’s follow the, the history of zone owning reform. Back when I was at Kennedy school, we, we studied a lot about this 40 B. This was back in 1969. It was a, an aspiration to encourage communities to build more diverse housing supply. Give us a little history on how what that 40 B entailed and what have been the results of start with the positive effects in the last, I guess, 50 years now.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So chapter 40 B basically mandated that every community in Massachusetts have at least 10% of its housing stock in the states, subsidized housing inventory, or Shi to both increase the stock of affordable housing overall and avoid concentrating it in areas that were deprived of economic opportunity before. And like you said, allowing kind of access to high opportunity areas for, for people of lesser means. And if you don’t comply with chapter 40 B developers can essentially ignore certain aspects of your town zoning laws. And the state can overturn any denial of a project whose residential component has at least 20 to 25% affordable units. So chapter 40 B success has been in creating more 60,000 units of housing that likely otherwise wouldn’t have been built over the last 50 plus years. And many of those, those units are, you know, permanently affordable deed, restricted, et cetera.
Joe Selvaggi:
So that sounds like it, you know, 60,000 sounds like a lot, although it’s 50 years or 55 years, that’s yeah. De of the math, not, not that many. How is its worthy aspirations fallen short have, have all the communities in, in Massachusetts Leafly complied with its directions.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think you’re you’re setting up the answer there quite intentionally. So the reality is more than three quarters of communities in Massachusetts still don’t comply with 40 B. A lot of them have taken the risk over the years, that if they don’t take steps to meet this, the affordable housing goal set by the state, then developers simply wouldn’t propose any projects under chapter 40 B that would allow them to skirt the town zoning laws. And the last decade or so was really a tipping point in a lot of Boston suburbs in that they started seeing these proposals come through because the market was really hot. The, the rents started to adjust toy, including these affordable units and the state was more desperate than ever to make a dent in this housing crisis, but at the same time, this sort of coercive tactic because of non-compliance with 40 B has in a lot of ways, deepened the hostility between real estate developers and, and some suburban communities. So, so I guess that’s the negative aspect of chapter 40 B.
Joe Selvaggi:
So the need has become greater. The resistance has become greater. So an unstoppable force means it’s the immovable object. So here we are back in 2021, then we passed something called section three, a we’ll call it section three, a, which was meant to learn from the, I guess, the shortcomings of 40 B and, and try to take another crack at it and, and sort of provide some kind of compromise between the needs of the community and the needs for more dense development. So let’s let’s start with three a what weaknesses in 48 did it address and how did it address it?
Andrew Mikula:
So big section three, a requires communities with access to the M BTA Boston’s public transit network to allocate at least 50 acres of land near an M BTA station to buy right multifamily housing development of a density of at least 15 acres, excuse me, 15 units per acre. So the law also requires that these new zoning districts accommodate families with children because oftentimes suburban communities only build dense housing that’s made for seniors because, you know, they don’t want to have to pay for kids to go to school. Right. so this section three a is an effort to tie service, provision buses and trains to connect these places to good jobs shops and recreation opportunities to the state’s ambitions to make sure everyone is able to obtain a suitable and affordable home in a tight market.
Joe Selvaggi:
I, I find that interesting. I don’t think that there’s, anything’s such thing in 40 B, but in three a the logic follow me if, if, if this is true or not, let me know. I think the logic is if you have a a tee stop and, and it does differentiate between a, a train light rail or a bus, but let’s just say, if you have access to mass transit therefore you have some public good, that is, you’ve been fortunate enough to have been built in your town for your benefit. And perhaps as, as a payback for such a wonderful resource I don’t know what the right word would be, but I’m gonna use payback. You ought to then become as you have this wonderful benefit in a sense payback by providing access or some set aside land 50 acres on which more dense housing can be built with the logic being, okay. The people who move in there can easily get to their jobs using mass transit fewer cars, it’s greener development. And you know, everybody wins the environment, the community and the people who go live there.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, you know, you’re absolutely right about the, the kind of the pact that the state is, is signing with these communities that if you kind of benefit from having a direct connection via mass transit to greater Boston, all the opportunities set of fors, you know, you need to kind of contribute to overcoming barriers to opportunities that are kind of the housing prices and, and, and lack of availability of appropriate homes for, for families. You know, that’s, that’s what the problem is that that’s kind of solving in a way this, this law is attempting to solve.
Joe Selvaggi:
And let’s be honest, if you have a, a teeth or brain stop in your town your house is more valuable by, by, by virtue of that fact, right? You you know, your commuters paradise, as they often say in the listing how many communities are identified in three a I know there’s 300, so communities in, in Massachusetts, how many are connected by, by mass transit?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So the state definition of MBTA communities they’re 175 almost half of all the municipalities in the state. And the state actually further differentiates these communities based on whether they have access to a subway or light rail station rapid transit, a commuter rail station that often travels further distances or only bus lines or are merely communities that are merely close to a tees stop, that’s located in another community. So there’s some differentiation in, in the bylaw, what the uniting kind of factor is. They either have a bus or a train station that ultimately connects them to Boston, or, you know, they benefit from the presence of a bus or train station in a nearby community.
Joe Selvaggi:
So it could be a train stop in your town or near a train stop in someone else’s town. But they have different categories. We’ll get a little bit into that later on. Of course now we’re talking about natural tension between communities have decided not to build more dense housing you either deliberately or less deliberately and and regional need for housing, which we all agree is, is, is almost at crisis levels here. So 40 B kind of went in this direction and a lot of people in a sense, ignored it. How does three a have a little more bite? How does it sort of square that circle communities don’t want it the region does want it, how do we sort of in a sense, appease or acknowledge and, and assuage the concerns of communities that something someone’s not gonna come in and build something they don’t like?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So section three a is at an attempt, you know, pretty similar to 40 B in a way to make these towns and cities proactively anticipate denser development so that they can determine its location, design details and other specifications on their own terms. 50 acres of dense zoning sound like a lot, but really it’s less than 10% of the land within a half mile radius of a given tee stop. So it’s still providing some flexibility to local governments in the implementation stage, which I’d say is crucial for the political legitimacy of this process. Also, unlike chapter 40 B, it’s not every community in the state that has to comply with this. It’s only communities that directly benefit from the MBT services. But even if you’re, you know, one of those communities I think the, the kind of silver lining is you get a lot of say in exactly what this 50 acres of dense zoning is going to look like in your community.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I don’t wanna generalize, but I just say, I, I think with 40 B the dynamic was for those towns that didn’t have diverse housing stock it allowed a developer to override the local zoning in a sense, build a project and effectively force it on a community. And, and there, we had a pitch battle. Instead, this seems like a very, very different approach, which is you say to each of those 175 communities, you know, you tell us where you want the 50 acres to be, and you tell, and you give us design parameters that integrate well with your community, right? The project be developed and sold the community itself, defines what the project will look like. And, and then, you know, developers can either go after it or not do, is that a meaningful difference? Is, do I have that about right?
Andrew Mikula:
Yes. And I, and I, I think a big piece I haven’t necessarily touched upon so far is, you know, these multifamily zoning districts need to be allow for by right development. So, you know, in mandating by right development, the process gets a lot less discretionary for, you know, approvals at local level. You know, it’s still gonna require bureaucrats to interpret the law, but it should be more transparent about why a project is being approved or denied than it was before. And that both kind of affords a, a level of, of control at the local level in a way that wasn’t there before. Because it’s either, you know, a yes or a no, and there’s, there’s not much in between. And it could help potentially reduce corruption in the real estate development process, which has been in an issue in, in greater Boston for a long time,
Joe Selvaggi:
Explain that dynamic. So, okay. In the old world, the 40 B I wanna build the town doesn’t want this project. I appeal to the state and the state said, no, you gotta let this guy build. But then they drag me through the approval process because they you know, I have to jump through hoops naturally, the big developer who has deep pockets might grease the skids by <affirmative> for lack of a better term bribing those people who are approving the project. How does, I mean, we can see how the, those incentives would exist and we don’t want this to happen. How would three a prevent that kind of dynamic? I know it’s maybe a occur, but how, how do you, how would you prevent bribery in, in this kind of world?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think, you know, by right development makes it less likely that corruption will occur because, you know, you really have to determine in advance what the criteria are for whether development’s allowed in a good even site and, and for a given project. So hypothetically it should all be in the, the codes, whether this is a given project is allowable, as opposed to having a kind of design review board or a review process among public officials that’s up for negotiation. And I think that, you know, our open meeting laws in Massachusetts go a long way towards increasing transparency around this regardless. But I think that there are certainly, or could be opportunities under something like chapter 40 B to kind of compromise the integrity of officials. And in the past, it’s also been controversial when cities and towns kind of require developers to do to perform kind of mitigations for the impacts of their project that aren’t necessarily directly related to the project. You know, I think paving adjacent streets or paying into the, kind of the city’s school fund is one thing. But if you are doing kind of offsite interventions and whatnot as a form of mitigation to the town that gets legally ambiguous,
Joe Selvaggi:
Right. That that’s the town’s shaking down the developer. So it goes both ways, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so, again, I don’t wanna put you find a point on it, but because three a the town, what the parameters of an acceptable building are, it hasn’t been black and white, the meetings are public. So provided the developer sticks to that plan. There should, there’s no really prerogative to, to shoot it down. You know, you, they have to come up with the reason why it violated the rules ahead of time. We set the rules, you follow the rules, the thing gets built. There’s no sort of back and forth no, no changing of the gold post as it were that, that, that seems to make sense. Now we’ve talked about many of the positive attributes of the three a and how it can encourage towns to have some latitude over what gets built, where it gets built you in your paper, in your comments, you did have some criticism of where it falls short. I think it, in particular you point out that there’s 50 acres and 15 units per acre in some towns you, you need some flexibility. You need to be able to say your goal is not square miles or square feet, but rather how many units get built. We, we, we’re not concerned about how big the project is, but how many people live there, same more about your concerns in that regard.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, so, you know, like I mentioned, it’s 15 units per acre is how dense each zone is required to be which is certainly less dense than most of the block sized, four to six story apartment buildings that have been built throughout the Boston region and recent year. And in my public comment, I can compare the density level mandated by three a, to a row of triple Deckers and Wooster with enough space between them, for each one to have a driveway. But to individual towns can certainly go higher than that. But right now higher than that 15, eight units per or acre. But right now they can’t go lower. And this is in my mind, an opportunity to have even more flexibility in the implementation stage. I think, you know, density is a, you know, in some regards a goal in and of itself in that it can require, or it can enable more compact walkable communities, but really it’s more of a byproduct of the proximity of amenities.
Andrew Mikula:
And so section three, a guidelines seem to focus more on the total amount of land area, devoted to multifamily housing around the transit amenities rather than the actual number of units that could be created in that zoning district. So I think it’s a matter of you know, the agency that’s responsible for, for crafting these guidelines, the, the department of housing and community development and massive two sets kind of getting its messaging right on this. And I’m interested in how they respond to my comments on their use of land area as an important compliance indicator, as opposed to what I think should be the ultimate goal increasing housing production and ultimately affordability.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you would advocate, you say, some town might say let’s we’ll, we’ll, we’ll cut it down to 25 acres, but we’ll make it twice as dense that you, you think there should be that kind of flexibility based on the needs of the town
Andrew Mikula:
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I could, I could certainly see a case at the town level for making that sort of arrangement, because if you think about a limited area of 50 acres, you know, why wouldn’t you want, you know, 25 of those acres to be reserved for open space or new civic uses or, or something like that. And I understand that that kind of the, a higher density level of 15 nos per acre might not feel right to every community, but I think at the, the very least it should be allowed in the bylaw. It shouldn’t be as prescriptive as it is from the state’s perspective on the, the total land area devoted to this that increasing housing production is a much more noble goal than having development spread out over a given amount of a life.
Joe Selvaggi:
I did a little, your, your paper sparked my curiosity about how dense my community is. I’m a back Bayer, it’s a 61 units per acre. So, and it’s not such a bad life here. So in, in <laugh> and reading your comments it seems like there’s a, a mandate for, you know, setting aside this land. Is there any specific requirement to actually build there, or is the assumption that, you know, if, if you set it aside, you create the parameters the market will take care of itself. Someone will show up and start building is there any mandate to, to actually build
Andrew Mikula:
Well, yeah, not really. The D H C D has focused on the regulatory aspects of development and rather than the kind of ultimate result. And like I said, I’m, I’m, I think there might be some room for a shift in the messaging down a line on this, but right now, I think the, the crucial thing the D H C D is addressing right now is the need for by right development that occurs with these zoning districts as opposed to making the process as kind of messy and, and discretionary as it has been in recent years when these communities have wrestled with the question of density. And so I think if you allow the, the state to kind of you know, focus on the regulatory aspects upfront then, and there’s enough, flexibility, enough kind of scope to the the zoning changes, then, you know, eventually if these developments are viable financially some of them will get built, maybe not all, but I, I think that part of zoning reform is accepting kind of uncertainty in how exactly this plays out. So,
Joe Selvaggi:
Oh, and that’s a great answer. So we didn’t go into detail, but I’d like to do that. Now, there are subtypes within these communities 175 communities, but I think there’s four subtypes and each has a different deadline for when it needs to be done. And I think in your paper, you mentioned, it’s, it’s sort of upside down the, those communities that are perhaps bigger and will have more of difficulty finding 50 acres or whatever their plan is. They’re first to comply. And those more rural communities have a little more time. You, you mentioned it’s probably the other way around you know, if you don’t have wide open space, you, you, you’ve got a lot of other competing interests. It’s gonna take you more time than it will for the more community, but say more about four different types and, and where those deadlines fall.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think it’s, you know, one of the smaller kind of details in from my my public comments, but I did mention that MBTA communities located on subway and light rail lines, you know, mall than Brookline Quincy, et cetera, have to submit their plans for achieving compliance before more suburban or exurban community commuter rail towns do like Grotton Ashland Middleborough. So to me, this doesn’t make sense because it’s probably gonna be harder to determine where to put these zoning districts in already built up communities. Especially once you consider that a lot of those communities have diverse immigrant groups, significant student populations, et cetera, that might need some sort of special outreach efforts. So there are a lot of other aspects of the guide lines where drawing a distinction among the MBTA communities makes sense, but I don’t think the deadlines for submitting action plans is one of them
Joe Selvaggi:
Now listeners to this are, you know, again, if they’re for against it, I think there’s probably a divided audience. Some are saying is the last thing I want and others are saying, you know, this is a great idea. Is there anything, you know someone who isn’t pleased with the, the idea of three a, could they be immediately out there changing the zoning laws in their town to, in a sense, make it impossible for these zones to be created? Is, is there a sort of a defensive move that, that will thwart the best intentions of this legislation?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, that, that’s an important question. So the D H C D wants to monitor communities so that it can rescind a community’s compliant status if they change their multi-family transit oriented zoning districts. After the fact the problem is that’s a huge administrative burden on the D H C D to keep track of zoning changes in 175 towns and cities. So that’s one of the major enforcement related questions about section three, a that is yet to be answered. And ideally the towns and cities would have to report these zoning changes to the D H C D themselves. But for now it’s unclear exactly how that will be implemented and enforced.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, that brings me to, again, we’re getting close to our, our, the end of our time together. Then we started the show by talking about 40B many, many communities just said, thanks, but no, thanks. Really what power does the state have to enforce 3A, you know, you, you’re, you’re dealing with a zoning requirement, but the community’s just saying, you know, thank you, we’re all set, you know, don’t bother us. What, what enforcement mechanism is there.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I, I touched upon it earlier. But basically there’s a rigorous process for coming into compliance with section three, a that involves submitting action plans and later reporting facts about the zoning districts to the D H C, D, and the big kind of punishment for not doing so, is that the towns that are out of compliance, won’t be able to obtain grants for infrastructure, housing choice, or other local capital projects
Joe Selvaggi:
But do all towns. And I think that you addressed this in paper or a paper you sent to me, I think maybe even in the Brookings paper that you also sent to me you know, only a small percentage of towns get those grants, you know, in general, more affluent communities may not need these, these grants. So there there’s no in the proverbial carrot and stick scenario, there’s no carrot. Is there a stick if, if there is no carrot, if the community doesn’t need the state in any way?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. I think there’s a case to be made that taking away these grant opportunities will not sufficiently deter some communities from simply ignoring section 3A’s requirements. But perhaps a stricter punishment scheme would hurt the political viability of the law overall. So it’s a balancing act. I, I think in the long term, the big stick is that as long as Massachusetts has an affordable housing crisis in know this sort of paradigm of the state playing a bigger role in putting forth sustainable development proposals is not going away. You know, California is even further down this path than we are. And even within Massachusetts, I know there are several communities that you know, learn their lesson on 40 B and want to be more proactive about implementing section three, a and so I think the, the kind of long view of this is the recognition that, you know, it’s now, or never, you can plan for, for change, or, you know, the state can, can kind of pull up the rug out from under take that control away. And you know, maybe the ultimatum hasn’t quite come to pass for, for a lot of these communities yet, but I think that it’s going to, it’s only gonna get stricter going forward. As long as this housing crisis is continues to get worse.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you know, this is where we’ll have to wrap up our show, but to translate thatit’s coming more diverse housing stock is coming to your community. It behooves the town leaders to make a plan that works for that community. Otherwise, something that may not work as well for that community is going to be imposed on them in the future. Inevitably. Is that a fair summation?
Andrew Mikula:
I think so. I think the politics of this have changed rapidly even in the last 10 years. And there’s now a greater kind of recognition that this housing shortage isn’t only affecting, you know, people who are low income. It’s also the middle class. It’s also, you know, working people, teachers and firefighters and mail carriers. Right. So and I think that’s, that started to kind of change the calculus on to what extent this needs to be top priority on Beacon Hill.
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed, we want a healthy community and a home for all the people who work here, not just the very rich and unfortunately the very poor and we want to integrate communities. So we’re bumping up against each other in each of our respective communities. We don’t want to be economically isolated or economically segregated. We want to have more integrated communities. I think that’s music to those of us who love markets ears. These are artificial barriers, not real barriers and we’ll all do better to see some reform here. So let’s take us out here by telling us where can our listeners learn more about your comments and how can they, in a sense bring this knowledge to their next city hall planning meeting and engage with their community leaders.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, the state has a great web page full of information on section three, a it’s called multifamily zoning requirement for MBTA communities. ‘d Also recommend checking out Salim Firth’s great map pointing out which communities are currently in compliance and which aren’t, he’s
Joe Selvaggi:
At the he’s at the me Mercatus Institute, right. Or center Mercatus center,
Andrew Mikula:
Right? Yes. Thank you. Yeah. <laugh> yeah. Oh, you mean our,
Joe Selvaggi:
We don’t all know, we don’t all know where it is. <Laugh>
Andrew Mikula:
On. All right. And, and also encourage you to get in touch with your local town planner, community development department, or town manager, and, and ask about what your community is doing to comply with the new law. And if you wanna read my public comments in folder there@pioneerinstitute.org under our recent research section.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. Well, that’s great. Well, we’ll wrap up this show there. That’s, that’s been a lot, it’s a lot for our listeners to digest, but I think you were clear at least we’ve wet their appetite for this issue. And then they can take it from there in their own local community. So I wanna thank you very much for joining me again on hub, long as, as usual, you’re a fund of information.
Andrew Mikula:
Thank you, Joe. Always a pleasure to be on Hubwonk.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. If you enjoy today, show there’s several ways to support us and Pioneer Institute. It would be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to Hubwonk on your iTunes podcast, catcher, if you’d like to make it easier for others to find Hubwonk, it would be great if you offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share Hubwonk with friends, if you have ideas or comments or suggestions for me on topics for future episodes, you’re welcome to email me at Hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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This week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with Evan Silverio, child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic, President and CEO of Silverio Insurance Agency, and founder of Diverse Real Estate, both in Lawrence, Massachusetts. With the example set by his mother, who founded the agency, Evan has achieved success, despite getting into real estate during a housing bust. Evan has since purchased nearly 100 properties across the commonwealth. He describes the examples set by his immigrant mother and grandfather, and how that shaped not just his approach to business but also giving back to the community that nurtured him, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.
Guest
Evan Silverio is the owner of Silverio Insurance in Lawrence, MA. He began working as a loan officer with Wells Fargo Home Mortgage after college. Four years later and while continuing to work as a loan officer, Evan joined his family’s business as a licensed Property and Casualty insurance agent. In 2009, Evan created Diverse Real Estate LLC: an entity used to buy, repair, sell and rent real estate property. Over the years, Evan managed to more than quadruple the insurance agency’s book of business while at the same time purchasing over 90 properties as a real estate investor. Evan also expanded the agency by adding another location in Haverhill, MA in 2018. In December of 2019 Evan purchased the agency from his parents and took over as President/CEO. In January of 2020, Evan also purchased the reputable Woodcome Insurance Agency, in Leominster, MA. Outside of his career, community service has always been high on Evan’s list of priorities. Dedicating time and donating to non-profits and charitable events has always been common practice by Evan and his family. In 2001, He co-founded The BEYOND Scholarship fund that assisted with financial burdens for students looking to enroll in private high schools. The fund has awarded nearly $50,000 in scholarships. Evan served three years as the Chair of the Lawrence Redevelopment Authority and is currently on the Executive Committee of the Lawrence Partnership. He graduated from Wheaton College in Norton, MA, with a bachelor’s degree in economics.
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Denzil Mohammed:
I’m Denzil Mohammed, welcome to Jobmakers
Denzil Mohammed:
In report from the immigrant learning center, titled adult children of immigrant entrepreneurs. It was found that children of immigrant business owners tended to work careers that helped people social work, healthcare education, rather than entrepreneurship makes sense. They’ve seen how much effort it takes to run a business in a new country while trying to learn the language laws and customs. At the same time. In fact, the report found that the parents often dissuade their children from following the path they chose for Evan Silvio, child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic, president and CEO of Silvio insurance agency and founder of diverse real estate, both in Lawrence, Massachusetts, he bit the bullet. And with the example set by his mother who founded the agency achieved success, eventually getting into real estate during a housing bust, wasn’t easy, but just like the everance his mother embodied Evan stuck with it and has since purchased nearly 100 properties across the Commonwealth. Evan describes the example set by his immigrant mother and grandfather and how that shaped, not just his approach to business, but also his approach to giving back to the community that near kind of like those other children of immigrant entrepreneurs. I mentioned, as you learn in this week’s job makers,
Denzil Mohammed:
Evan Silverio, president CEO, Silverio Insurance Agency, and manager of Diverse Real Estate, welcome to the Jobmakers podcast. How are you?
Evan Silverio:
Thank you. Thank you so much, thank you for having me.
Denzil Mohammed:
So tell us a little bit about your businesses and also perhaps tell us a little bit about the things that matter most to you as a professional and an entrepreneur.
Evan Silverio:
My mother was, you know, extremely intelligent, hardworking, fearless individual. I myself and two older sisters that were born here, you know, it’s interesting. She gave me the name, Evan, because she liked the name, but because she thought it was going to be easier on me in my transition in the United States. Right. But funny enough, a lot of people find it confusing. They call me Kevin. So didn’t go as as planned. My parents were strict. They were also very aspirational coming from another country indirectly, I learned a lot through their own struggles as immigrants long working hours failing out at a lot of business, different business ventures navigating the school systems helping family with immigration paperwork. I remember a story about my sister my older sister going to school. And my mother really had to fight for her, for them to accept her in the school system and not put her in a Spanish speaking class.
Denzil Mohammed:
Like the English language program or something.
Evan Silverio:
Yeah and I remember that being a huge struggle. And eventually, you know, she put up such a fight that they allowed her to participate and my sister did fine and she excelled. So it was interesting. But for us, it was normal, we’re around a lot of immigrants, so it made it even that much more normal.
Denzil Mohammed:
So you spoke a little bit about your mother and I think you alluded to her determination and her perseverance in the situation with your sister at school. Tell us a little bit more about your mother. She is an entrepreneur, a community leader. She even ran from Mayor of Lawrence. That is incredibly cool. And incredibly, as you say, aspirational, tell us more about her.
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, like I mentioned you know, when, when I think about my mother just intelligent, hard work and fearless, but also funny, passionate, you know, bighearted I think, I think she spent most of her life making sure that everyone else was okay. And that’s exactly how she formed her business and why she gave dedicated long hours to the community, her church, her family, right. Her business was basically established because she was helping friends and family fill out paperwork do translations immigration consulting,then after that it leads to taxes and eventually to insurance. And it was more out of her dedication to her community that she also found a way to monetize it and say, okay, well, I need to also run a business. So,there has to be some fees associated with that. Ubut it wasn’t about the money either because most of our time through the community was volunteer work, right. City counselor, or running for mayor and, and saying, you know, we’re gonna do, or her time on the boards,umore volunteer work than anything.
Denzil Mohammed:
I do want to make a point that, you know, she started these successful businesses here. And as you say, it indirectly affected and improved the community. But she would not have been able to start her own business back in the Dominican Republic if she were living there, right?
Evan Silverio:
The opportunity to help other people who really needed someone like her, a voice, a representative of sorts. And I think, you know, she used all of the skills that she, she had and, and, and really shined being here in particular in Lawrence. But I think the type of person my mother was, she would’ve been successful in the Dominican Republic.
Denzil Mohammed:
So let’s turn it over to you now tell us about your real estate business that you started in 2009 while still in your twenties. What has that been like and how do you see this business growing in the future?
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, the real estate business is just essentially myself investing in real estate. So prior to jumping on board to the family business, I was a loan officer for a total of nine years, I think, four years before jumping on board. And then while I was doing insurance, I was also continuing the loan officer career. And the reason being is I just needed the money. Right. when my mother came and asked me to jump into the family business and she couldn’t afford much, right. So I said, okay, let me, you know, come on board. And, and, and I’ll continue doing mortgage as best I can with the same amount of time through the through mortgages and through being a loan consultant I just recognized real estate a little bit.
Evan Silverio:
I could understand it a little bit and I decided, you know, what I think I can throw my hat in the ring and, and try to make some money in real estate. And my first two investments failed. They were terrible failures. And so, yeah, so it was pretty interesting. It was during the real estate boom and bust. And, and I got caught with some real estate in my hand, but for some reason I said to myself, I still still believe, you know, that this is a good time to invest. So while everybody else was kind of back pedaling, I got back on the horse, started investing again. And,it was hard, you know, you have to sacrifice, you have to make sure you do good by a lot of people.
Evan Silverio:
You know, as I mentioned earlier, it was a lot of hard money lending in order to get some investments in but the reason that I that I thought it was interesting, was it, my reasoning kept on changing over time. Initially it was, you know, if I can just get a property to pay for my auto loan, that’d be great. And then it said, well, if I could do that, I can get a property to pay for, you know, wherever I was gonna live. And that would be great. And then it just kept on going and snowballing and you know, and a hundred properties later, you know, you change it and say, well, passive income. It has a retirement plan. There’s booming equity. And now it’s funding certain acquisitions for the insurance agency. So it’s, it’s kind of working out well.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow. I like how that it balances out with the insurance agency too. And as you say, a hundred properties, that is incredible. So you spoke a lot about you and your mother’s community involvement and you know, the model of her business, helping people with immigration forms and taxes and venturing that into a business, monetizing it your involvement today stretches from the Lawrence redevelopment authority to a scholarship fund you started with Grammy-winning producer and Lawrence native DJ Buddha. So tell me what is the guiding principle behind this kind of work that you do?
Evan Silverio:
Honestly, I think it just comes from this responsibility to give back, to contribute, the scholarship fund, as you mentioned with DJ Buddha, he was a Lawrentian such as myself. He went to Central Catholic with me and I think post graduation once we had some money in our pocket we had a clear understanding that the reasons we were allotted certain opportunities was because of the opportunities that we were given to attend, you know a higher education than the high school level. And we wanted to give other people that same opportunity. We think that really was a pivot a game changer for us in our younger years. And and if other people can have that same experience and we can make that same pivot for other people, then, then we were going to put some effort into that.
Evan Silverio:
But I think it really down to the responsibility to contribute and give back where, and when we can. I think now where I have less time on my hands I know that I still have in the back of my head because part of the whole business plan be it with real estate or be it with the insurance, is to make sure that successful enough, that we can continue to, to contribute to those in the private sector, nonprofit or just community, a advocates that that align with our belief system. And hopefully we can contribute because they need capital to do what they do. So if we can be a source for them then, then we’ll be happy to be <affirmative>
Denzil Mohammed:
As you talk about community development. I, I really think deeply of Lawrence, which of course, you know, had all the mills and it had that sort of boon, and then it sort of busted, and it became a place where immigrants moved in because the rents were cheap. I recall your mother saying that it wasn’t until Latinos were elected to the city, a council, that things really began to change for minorities in terms of access to help and growing their businesses and things like that in terms of economic development in Lawrence, where do you see Lawrence headed and what changes would you like to see, or what changes would you like to, to help bring about?
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, Lawrence is definitely evolving. And I think that you’re looking at the tail end of some great things, right. Lawrence 15, 20 years ago is a totally different Lawrence. And I think I think we have a lot of communities asking our local leaders right now. How, how did Lawrence do it? I was just on a call the other day with, I think it was Chicopee asking and picking our brain on, Hey, you know, we, we saw everything that you were able to do, you know, can you give us some, some pointers, right. And, and what’s funny is the pointers really come down to that. You really just have to have enough people invested who want it bad enough to roll up their sleeves, to try to get the work done, right? Whatever changes and the better the plan than, than the better, the more the buy-in.
Evan Silverio:
But if you don’t have the people it’s gonna be a very difficult thing to move. The city in Lawrence, we have that we have private, we have public have nonprofit, all collaborating and working together. This has been the fundamental difference. There is no one person or entity who’s done it all. It’s a combined effort over a long period of time. So I think a lot of people say, oh, wow. Overnight, no, it’s, <laugh>, it’s, you know, 30 years in the making. So it definitely, it takes a village but we need more villagers to take pride and to participate. We can’t afford to wait for someone else to make these changes for us. We need to be the change.
Denzil Mohammed:
And it’s safe to say that immigrants, business owners, workers, community members are part of that change. In Lawrence, I was, I remember talking to Theresa Park on this podcast and she was very proud of the work that she was able to accomplish in Lawrence, which was incidentally, the place where her Korean family moved when they first came to the us. Finally you said your, you know, your grandfather moved from the Dominican Republic to the us and eventually sent for your mother. It wasn’t an easy task for either of them. And, you know, your mom walking around with dictionaries at school, and I have that vivid memory in my head, but she stuck with it. And here you are reflect on those risks that they took and compare it perhaps to the risks that you take as an entrepreneur.
Evan Silverio:
Cause I, I think about, about it off, I think about it off in the risk that they take. And I think a, a lot of what I’ve done has been based on thinking about in retrospect, the sacrifices that were made by all of those that came before me. I think I mentioned that earlier. I think about a lot of the risks that I’ve taken as an investor, you know, the hard money land, the, the, the large risks that I’ve taken. And I, by far cannot compare that to the risks of my grandfather. My mother, my father, who came here you know when I think about it, I think it’s because I still live in my comfort zone and my choices be it co college or career, we all closely <affirmative>, you know relative to where my family is and, and what I thought my options were.
Evan Silverio:
But just having those options, just having options in general, I think a lot of people take for granted, right? You don’t have to be right about your options, but you still have options. Right. but their risk and, and their decisions revolved around something deeper the safety of their families to book people in better positions, that’s not so much themselves, but their, but their daughters, their sons, their, the, and, and the sons and daughters of, of sons and daughters to have more resources you know, they, they, weren’t looking to be millionaires. They, they were just looking for a better life and they risked it all to do so they came to this country with no real money no real connections and no resources. And so they got here and they, they figure it out, right.
Evan Silverio:
There was this, this myth that the country that they were going to had this stuff waiting for them. And this was still a better option than just staying put. Right. and, you know, I, I think nobody goes into something and, and takes risks and says, this is a bad idea, but let me do it anyway, everybody, the whatever risk they’re taking is because there’s some reward and, and, and something. And I think in retrospect I, myself and the reward and hopefully my kids, kids as well of all the sacrifices that they’ve made,
Denzil Mohammed:
I did not mean to exclude dad. We have to mention dad <laugh> as well. Last I’m sure that they’re gonna be young brown boys and girls teenagers, people in their twenties who perhaps consider starting their own business. What advice would you give to young body budding entrepreneurs, or what are some of the lessons that you’ve learned that you think you would like to impart
Evan Silverio:
There? Nothing builds nothing, beats out, keeping your word, you know building trust you know, those things, that’s what everything is based off of. Right. I relationships with bankers, relationship with networking people, all of that is gonna continue building. The more that you can build your trust with them and complete the task that you say you’re gonna complete. If you continue doing that, I think more people will follow you. I think more people will trust you. I think more people will invest in you and you have to be willing to take that risk on yourself and say, you’re good enough. And, and, and you’re trustworthy enough and, and don’t break, don’t break that for anything or anybody not even money. And if you keep at it, you will succeed,
Denzil Mohammed:
Not even money. I love how you phrased that. Evan Silverio, President & CEO of Siverio Insurance Agency in Lawrence, Haverhill and Woburn and sole manager of Diverse real estate, thank you so much for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. This was a lovely and fascinating interview.
Evan Silverio:
Thank you so much, Denzil, for having me and I love the podcast, and I’ll continue to keep listening.
Denzil Mohammed:
Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and the Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not for profit that gives immigrants a voice. I am so happy that you joined us for this week’s powerful story of immigrant entrepreneurship passed down to the next gen. Remember, you can subscribe to Jobmakers on Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. And please leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another Jobmakers.
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In Massachusetts, the Know-Nothing amendments prevent more than 100,000 urban families with children in chronically underperforming school districts from receiving scholarship vouchers that would allow them access to additional educational alternatives. These legal barriers, also known as Blaine amendments, restrict government funding from flowing to religiously affiliated organizations in nearly 40 states and are a violation of the first and fourteenth amendments.
The U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case this year, Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue, that could end these amendments. In 2018, Pioneer produced a 30-minute documentary on the impact of the Blaine amendments on families in Massachusetts, Georgia, and Michigan.
“She’s a good girl. She helps me a lot. She has big, big dreams. I don’t have the money, but she has big dreams. I hope she’s going to get everything, but she works so hard. She works so hard in school.”
“Our family is needing to make some really big sacrifices because we believe this is important, and so, we’re basically going to do whatever it takes… Sometimes we look at each other and go ‘I don’t know if I can do it again another month…’”
“A lot of the families have to sacrifice and work multiple jobs… And just scraping together enough money to just make tuition, just the basics.”
“It is discriminatory, that parents who want to choose an alternative to public school for their children, would not in any way receive any compensation for that, whether it be tax credit, whether it be a voucher…”
In the 1840s, nativist movement leaders formed official political parties and local chapters of the national Native American Party (later the American Party), although they continued to be commonly known as the Know-Nothing Party. Politicians sought to insert provisions into state constitutions against Catholics who refused to renounce the pope. The Know-Nothing movement brought bigotry and hatred to a new level of violence and organization.
The party’s legacy endured in the post-Civil War era, with laws and constitutional amendments it supported, still today severely limiting parents’ educational choices. A federal constitutional amendment was proposed by Speaker of the House James Blaine prohibiting money raised by taxation in any State to be under the control of any religious sect; nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided between religious sects or denominations. These were then named the Blaine Amendments of 1875.
in recent decades, often in response to challenges to school choice programs, the U.S. Supreme Court has demonstrated great interest in examining the issues of educational alternatives and attempts limit parental options. Massachusetts plays a key role in this debate. The Bay State was a key center of the Know-Nothing movement and has the oldest version of Anti-Aid Amendments in the nation, as well as a second such amendment approved in 1917. Two-fifths of Massachusetts residents are Catholic, and its Catholic schools outperform the state’s public schools, which are the best in the nation.
Help families like the Costons in Michigan to end the bigoted Blaine amendments in their state that are blocking tuition scholarships and other types of financial support that would make it possible for families to send their children to high-quality schools that are best suited for their children.
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This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Cara Candal and Gerard Robinson talk with Dr. Robert Alter, Emeritus Professor of Hebrew and Comparative Literature at the University of California at Berkeley, and author of the landmark three-volume book, The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary. As Jews around the world celebrate Passover this week, Dr. Alter shares why the Hebrew Bible is probably the most influential book in human history, and the larger lessons 21st century teachers and students should draw from its timeless wisdom. They also discuss the text as a record of the Jewish people, and vital historical lessons of persecution, resilience, and survival. Professor Alter describes how the Psalms and the Book of Exodus’ stories of liberation and Moses’ leadership inspired several of the major figures of the Civil Rights Movement. The interview concludes with Dr. Alter reading from his trilogy.
Stories of the Week: In California, K-12 public school enrollment has declined below 6 million for the first time in over two decades, with COVID accounting for only some of the loss. New Brookings research explores whether major federal aid packages directed to schools during COVID, and after the 2008 Great Recession, have been used for the intended purpose.
Guest
Dr. Robert Alter is the Class of 1937 Emeritus Professor of Hebrew and Comparative Literature at the University of California, Berkeley. He started his career as a writer at Commentary Magazine, where he was for many years a contributing editor. Professor Alter has written twenty-eight books, including The Art of Biblical Narrative (1981); The Art of Biblical Poetry (1985); The Five Books of Moses: A Translation with Commentary (2004); The Book of Psalms: A Translation with Commentary (2007); and Ancient Israel: The Former Prophets: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings: A Translation with Commentary (2013). Most recently, he completed the three-volume book, The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary (2018), of which The New York Times wrote, “[Alter’s] achievement is monumental, marked by literary grace and intelligent commentary.” In 2009, he received the Robert Kirsch Award from the Los Angeles Times for lifetime contribution to American letters. He earned his bachelor’s degree in English from Columbia University, and his master’s degree and doctorate from Harvard University in comparative literature, as well as being awarded honorary degrees by Yale University and Hebrew University.
The next episode will air on Weds., April 27th, with Dr. Wilfried Schmid, Dwight Parker Robinson Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at Harvard University, who played a major role in the drafting of the 2000 Massachusetts Mathematics Curriculum Framework, and served on the U.S. National Mathematics Advisory Panel in 2008.
Tweet of the Week
What states require in their educational standards has long-lasting effects on individual attitudes and occupational choices. https://t.co/kSPgWw0E4i
— Education Next (@EducationNext) April 6, 2022
News Links
California public school enrollment drops below 6 million mark
https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2022/04/california-public-school-enrollment/
Has federal crisis spending for K-12 schools served its intended objectives?
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
[00:00:00] GR: Welcome back to another exciting session with Cara and I on the learning curve. For those of you who celebrated the holiday weekend, hope you’ve had a great time with family, with friends or just yourself. We had a chance to do some great things to family, and it was good to be in a faith setting with people that I haven’t had a chance to be with in over a year and a half.
[00:00:44] So it was good on my end. What about you?
[00:00:47] Cara: we had a very nice Easter. We also celebrate Easter. Thank you for asking. It was, lovely. I ate too much candy, so did the dog, by the way, the dog had gotten into Easter [00:01:00] baskets before the children even found them. So. A little bit of anxiety because you know, dogs are not supposed to eat chocolate.
[00:01:07] she’s fine. So no worries there. But yesterday is we talked a little bit about last week was running of the Boston marathon and I had several friends running at no point in time was I inspired to run because we lived right before what they call. Heartbreak hill, which anybody who has probably ever run any marathon has heard of Boston’s heartbreak hill.
[00:01:28] And so you could just see, this is like the point in the marathon, Gerard worried about mile. I think we’re right after mile 20, where you can see people like making like the calculus going on in their brain. Like, am I just gonna stop now and throw in the towel or am I going to persist? So it was quite a display of.
[00:01:47] think a marathon for me watching I’ve run half marathons in my life, but never marathons watching people persist through that kind of pain is just such a display [00:02:00] of mental toughness. You know, it really shows you the human capacity to overcome pain. When you see people about to ascend heartbreak hill at mile 20 of a marathon.
[00:02:11] So yeah, to me, that’s always just, and thankfully. It was a beautiful day for it. Probably a little too hot actually for the runners. It was in the mid fifties. I think for me, that’s too hot.
[00:02:23] GR: Just brutal. Yeah.
[00:02:25] Cara: Well, I like to run in the thirties, but you know, yeah, of
[00:02:28] GR: course, of
[00:02:29] Cara: course , it’s the best kind of running and I bet you people will, will agree with me, listeners, send us an email for your career or get us on Twitter, but anyway, beautiful day.
[00:02:37] and really. Such a wonderful event for not just the city of Boston, but the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, especially those communities that are along the route. it’s a feeling unlike any other.
[00:02:48] GR: And let me give a shout out to UVA. President Jim Ryan who ran his 11th straight Boston marathon.
[00:02:55] And this time he’s doing it for veterans as many of our listeners know he’s the former. Dean of the [00:03:00] Harvard graduate school of education, but he is an avid runner and he is doing it for a good call. So I want to make sure as someone who works UVA, wanna give him a president of the shout-out impressive.
[00:03:10] Cara: Jared, have you ever thought about, have you ever run a marathon or thought about running.
[00:03:14] GR: No. What I do is watch it on TV or when friends of mine decided to do so, I’m like I cheer on I’ll donate money to their calls, but I am not a runner unless chased or chasing someone. Cause I need something. But other than that, no running legs here.
[00:03:31] Cara: Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s something I’ve thought about it. I think I might’ve mentioned last time I ran a half marathon, seven months pregnant. Yeah. Cause that’s a good idea. Especially when, especially, you know what it was, it’s my competitive spirit. My husband was going to do it. And of course at the time when we signed up for the marathon, I don’t even know if I knew I was pregnant yet.
[00:03:52] but once, I discovered that he was going to do it, I was like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I’m going to do this and I’m going to beat you,[00:04:00]
[00:04:01] but I would never do it again. I finished that half marathon and I thought to myself that is an activity I will never engage in again, as long as I live. So. It’s stupid because I hadn’t trained. Anyhow. We’ve got quite a show ahead of us as always. I’m just curious to know what you’re going to be ranting about this.
[00:04:21] GR: So my rant is about my home state, where I grew up California. And this is from Cal matters. Joe Hong is the author and it says California public school enrollment drops below 6 million mark. So for the first time, since the start of this century, California has fewer than 6 million students attending public schools.
[00:04:44] And this isn’t only a drop in public schools, writ large. Charter schools also saw a decline for the first time since 2014. Now when the department of education began to desegregate data, they identify a few points. So for [00:05:00] example, kindergarten enrollment is up, but nowhere near the pre pandemic level this year, now the schools are open kindergarten enrollment was up by more than 7,000 students recovering slightly from the loss last year.
[00:05:14] 60,000 students. Now on the private school side, there are more than 9,000 students. Who’ve enrolled in private school, roughly a 1.7% increase, but that doesn’t explain the major exit is from public schools. So the author makes a couple of good points. We said these, hold on to number one. He reminds us that enrollment in California was on a steady decline for more than a decade, even before the pandemic.
[00:05:42] And what reason did he name? He said mostly due to the lack of affordable housing. And so. People began to move and change. Well, this brings me to the point to the president of the California charter schools association, Myrna casserole. She said [00:06:00] this to the client also illustrates how charter schools are facing the same statewide challenges as our non-public charter school or non-charter friends.
[00:06:09] And she’s called for equitable funding. And so through the article goes down for how many first graders were here. But here’s one thing, even though the numbers for kindergarten went up enrollment numbers for first graders drop 18,000 students this year. And it raises questions because they said, wait a minute, we had a nice enrollment last year.
[00:06:33] So students who qualify for kindergarten, who now qualify for first grade. Thousands of them are not coming back. And when the California department of education was asked for a comment it said it wouldn’t comment on where those students went and some school districts are trying to find an answer.
[00:06:49] So at the state level, the governor said, well, I tell you what in California funding is driven in part by enrollment and attendance. So governor Newsome said, [00:07:00] what he wants to do is to allow districts to use a three year average attendance rate to calculate next year’s funding. The reason for looking at three years, it would bring you pre pandemic pre dropping numbers.
[00:07:13] And it will look at attendance versus enrollment because for holster reasons, as the authors identify, we’ve lost a lot of students and department of ed. Cannot necessarily identify who, what, where, when or why. There are also some privacy reasons to consider. There’s also a state Senator who introduced him to bill eight 30 to help with funding.
[00:07:35] So I will buy that affordable housing is one factor. do I, there is a drop in the number of students in California, but I decided to even do a deeper dive. And so it took a little. Article in the Los Angeles times from December 18th, 2021. And in that article, the author says the California population.
[00:07:57] Yes. Continues the client and [00:08:00] is putting in perspective. well, the drop below 6 million, isn’t just a drop for students. Many of those students are in homes or communities where there’s also a drop. So California itself has a decline. Why? Well, one driven by lower immigration to fewer deaths, well, fewer births and some pandemic deaths.
[00:08:21] And so I said, wow. So yeah, decline in students. Affordable housing. Got it. There’s also a drop in the population, at least according to one author, Lord immigration got, if you were birthed comma, pandemic deaths. And I said, well, that’s going to have an impact on the state as well. Well, what people may not know is that for the first time, in the 171 year history of California, since this data has come out and identify that not only the California.
[00:08:49] Have a drop in population as a result, it actually lost a congressional seat moving from 53 house districts to 52. Now that may not mean much to people outside of [00:09:00] California, but it matters a lot to people in California. Why? Well, one fewer state Merck in the house means one fewer vote in the electoral college, which helps decide who’s going to be president.
[00:09:12] There’s going to be less than 1.5 trillion in federal money distributed to the state each year. So I said, but there’s gotta be something other than that, or in addition to, but most of the answers that I’ve read so far have a lot to do with what’s taking place in. And then I’m sad to read an article by one of my colleagues at the American enterprise Institute Mark Perry, and he’s written for years about why people decide to leave states.
[00:09:42] And what he decided to do is to look at the number of view halls that leave one state and go to another. And so what he’s identified is that between 2010 and 2019, that The top 10, mostly blue states lost 845,000 [00:10:00] citizens. While the top 10, most red states actually gained a million. And so I did a deeper dive.
[00:10:06] I said, well, where are the states? So in 2021, the top 10 inbound states are Florida followed by Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Idaho, Utah, Nevada. And. Some of our listeners, won’t like this California, a, the number one outbound state followed by New York, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Louisiana, Maryland uh, Y and Minnesota, as well as Michigan, your former home state.
[00:10:36] So I put into perspective, California, student enrollment. By 6% is influenced by a lot of factors. Affordable housing is one, immigration is another, so our pandemic deaths as well as birth rates, but let’s also put in mind that people are leaving the state and going to states that have lower taxes and have had a [00:11:00] higher, in fact, a lore, unemployment rate.
[00:11:02] States that are providing tax breaks for businesses. So when I look at the numbers, it’s an education discussion, but it’s a broader discussion about demographics taxes and public policy. I’m
[00:11:16] Cara: very good. Blue states are getting nervous when they hear you say that, especially talking about declining census data and losing representatives.
[00:11:25] And but I think we know it’s true. And we know that a lot of these states where you’ve named where folks are going have been working hard to get folks to there. And we can talk about, I think you’re right. It starts with an education conversation, but it’s different than that because some of those states.
[00:11:38] I also have a lot of work to do on their education systems. But I want to go back Gerard and ask you a question about governor Newsome’s fix here because now granted, we are coming out of a pandemic enrollment seems unstable bloody bloody blah, but sounds like you’ve got some pretty good numbers that this is a pre pandemic problem, right?
[00:11:57] Enrollment’s been going down for a long time for many of the [00:12:00] reasons that you named. So. In your mind is the right answer to say, well, let’s just pack things for awhile and make this. I mean, I, do listen. I do, to some extent, get the argument. wish that we didn’t have to make it because I wish our school districts were more efficient and less lumbering than they are because they are these lumbering bureaucracies that don’t seem to be able to adjust really well when suddenly they don’t have as many kids in the schools they thought they did, but to take an approach that sort of past.
[00:12:28] Funding for kids who weren’t there over a longer period of time. I wonder about the extent to which that really solves the problem, which is school districts need to adjust. They need to be nimble California, unless it’s suddenly housing stock, becomes much more affordable unless a range of other things happen.
[00:12:46] He’s probably not going to recover its population in the near term. And so what does that mean for. Spending money on things like propping up empty facilities. We have this problem here in Boston that money is not necessarily going to kids and going [00:13:00] to their education. So I’m curious as to what you think of that.
[00:13:04] GR: I accept his proposal as a stop gap measure to try to hold harmless schools for one to two years. So for that, I’m fine with the green length. I also know that California’s got billions of dollars and cares money that’s going to the state for some students, in fact who may not be there now. And so I don’t want money to be a reason why the state can’t move forward to try to fix this.
[00:13:30] So in this. Um, A green light on it. You’re a
[00:13:33] Cara: green light on it. Okay. Yeah. think that it’s hard not to be in the short term. My question is, will they change things in the term? You know, we know that yeah. Now these states could be using this opportunity to say, Hey, here’s an idea. Let’s turn towards a model of student centered funding.
[00:13:52] It doesn’t seem to be. The table.
[00:13:56] GR: Yeah, no, that’s actually a good point. No, they, won’t change because [00:14:00] there are no legislative incentives to do so, uh, California funding model is really different than most states because there’s also a community college dynamic as well. So no, they won’t go to a we call it backpack model of the money following the stigma.
[00:14:14] They won’t do that. The question will be two years from now. Are you going to continue to keep attendance and enrollment when you get to year three? And you’re saying attendance and not enrollment are now we have a problem because you have go students and that students were actually there. So I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt for two years, but I don’t expect a major push, but in the article, superintendents were saying we’re having to compete with each other for students and you’re competing.
[00:14:44] Like private schools and like charter schools and like cities you’re competing for talent. So it is a interesting story. But this is a story about California dreaming in reverse,
[00:14:57] Cara: and dear they insert [00:15:00] competition into education. It’s not bad. Well, you know, you mentioned this also, I mean, my ears perk up , like you said, California’s got a bunch of money and a bunch of cares funding.
[00:15:12] And with kids leaving, they should have extra to spend on the kids. Yes. Maybe, I don’t know, my, article, it’s a question is will they spend it on things that will ultimately benefit kids? I’ve got this really interesting piece. It’s from the Brookings Institute blog, the brown center chalkboard by Kenneth shores and Matthew Steinberg.
[00:15:30] And they’re blogging about a research paper they just did. And I just it’s really cool. I mean, I think that, you know, Three really broad questions, which I sort of love. And they’re looking at main question they asked is, has federal crisis spending served its intended objectives. That’s the title of the blog.
[00:15:51] And the big question they’re trying to ask, and then they’ve got three sub-questions here. So they’re looking at American recovery and reinvestment funds. Remember. [00:16:00] Remember that. Yeah, the American recovery and reinvestment act after the great recession. And they’re also looking of course at Esser funds.
[00:16:08] So as a reminder, a R R a funds were about 50 billion and the whole purpose was to give money to the state. So they could simply like get school budgets up to pre-recession levels. And then of course, as our funds, we’re talking $190 billion Gerard. And so they wanted to look. Three things specifically, the first was where the funds allotted sufficient to basically meet the policy goal, which in this case is to offset learning loss where the funds allocated to the districts with most need.
[00:16:40] And were they used in a way that would help districts meet the purported policy goals. So again, to recover learning loss, so on all counts. And this is a really interesting example of us. I mean, why are we were asking this question about a R a now and there were very few studies, there were couple done at the time to see like, [00:17:00] okay, so what difference did it make, if any, and it’s not to say that it didn’t make some difference.
[00:17:04] It did. I certainly have memories of entering schools to do research studies after they had received ARR funds and Nam. There were a lot of nice looking Smartboards hanging in those schools that nobody knew. But, there were some definite good infrastructure changes that happened. And I think, but these authors conclude that if you really look at.
[00:17:23] these questions, were the funds sufficient to offset learning loss where they allocated to districts most in me, by and large, the answer is no. So surprise, surprise, right? Under a R a, it seemed to work a bit in the beginning, but really at the end of the day, they said the funds weren’t enough to get the districts that needed it most back up to pre-recession spending levels.
[00:17:44] Now we know we’ve had lots of people on the show that does tell you spending isn’t everything, budgets, aren’t everything, but. In the context of a budget, taking a sudden and big hit. I remember being on the board of a charter school at this time and us realizing like, wow, halfway through the year, luckily this all states, [00:18:00] all schools were experiencing this and, and state had to help make up for it, but we really taking it.
[00:18:04] It was a big budget impact and he had tough decisions to make them very short notice. And so there really weren’t enough funds under a R a this is fascinating to me under. What the authors conclude is that actually well, first of all, if the policy goal is to offset learning loss, we don’t know the extent of learning loss still.
[00:18:26] We’re still trying to figure it out. And we don’t know the extent of learning loss, where one thing that we do know is that as extra funds were being allocated states, actually weren’t taking as big of a budgetary hit. As we’d predicted they would in the beginning from COVID right. Budgets actually turned out to be pretty.
[00:18:47] Okay. But under if you look at the most dramatic predictions, , around learning loss, you would still come up a little bit short in terms of are the funds allocated enough to actually address learning loss. So let’s [00:19:00] put that in the bucket of, we will see the other really interesting question around.
[00:19:05] We’re the funds getting to where they needed to be. That is the districts that were hurt as tit the districts with the students that were already suffering the greatest, gaps in learning. And in there, the story again is very interesting because under a R R a it wasn’t so much targeted.
[00:19:21] At we’re going to target low income districts because states were already doing that. They sort of handed the money over to states and then states follow their own formulas. And a lot of states were already giving more funding to lower income districts, but under Sr, remember, we distributed those funds using title one model.
[00:19:38] So theoretically the districts who needed the most should have gotten the most and by and large, that did happen. But here’s the thing. Learning loss. We were in this unprecedented. Everybody stays at home and learns online and loses learning pandemic. So what it turns out to be is that if you run the models, it’s the district.
[00:19:55] That receives the least amount of money. Those that were more well lost, they arguably still [00:20:00] suffered the same, for example, like years of learning loss as other kids. So it’s a real question as to whether these funds realized their stated goal, right. Or the government’s stated goal, but here’s the final one.
[00:20:13] And this is. The kicker, the final question was, were the funds actually, were they working to meet their purported goal? And here’s a little quote from the article around what we learned about a R a from several studies at the time. And that was at the end of the day, to understand whether or not these funds were actually impacting learning loss that we needed greater transparency, greater accountability.
[00:20:41] And more data. Now, if you look at what we’re struggling with now, I don’t know if you’ve read some of these district plans on how escrow funds are being sent Gerard, but I have, and nine times out of 10, they tell you absolutely nothing. This is I’m reading this article also on the same day. Us ed has announced that they’re going to be having a [00:21:00] summit profiling, how districts are spending their funds.
[00:21:02] I’m sure some of them are spending them well, but at the end of the day, we really don’t know how those funds are being spent. They had certain parameters, but you could probably drive a truck through most of those parameters. So I think that my prediction Gerard is going to be that 10 years from now. If you and I are still talking about this.
[00:21:21] We are going to find out that the studies conclude we need greater transparency, greater accountability, and better quality data to figure out whether or not this, how much did I say at the beginning? Oh, I’m sorry. $190 billion in SRP. Actually did anything just I’m learning loss. So that’s my story. I highly recommend this study and this blog to our listeners, because it’s an interesting one.
[00:21:49] And I don’t think we should forget that these districts are going to be spending extra funds for at least the next few years, Gerard. And they’ve got a long way to go and doing it the right way.
[00:21:58] GR: So much of what you [00:22:00] said. I’m going to say ditto, ditto, ditto. It’s a shame. And they actually look 10 years in the future and have a conclusion that’s going to be 80% in the ballpark.
[00:22:09] 10% of be totally off or the additional 10% of the worse in terms of the prediction. But you know what, when we look back through different presidents administration is, and we see the different theme-based investment to make work. You’re going to come back to. Yep. He didn’t work well, it didn’t do this, Yeah. I just leave it at that because it’s just, this is not a hard thing to do. You can actually follow the money. When we look at charter school malfeasance, we know every dime. We know every corner that was cut when a school that has a voucher school or a school receiving private school funds. When it’s time to close the newspaper, we’ll run an export.
[00:22:52] Telling you, how much the principal made the car? He or she drove using public funds. The amount of money that was used as kickbacks to vendors. , they’ll [00:23:00] lock the length. And when we come to traditional public schools, where’s the money going? We’re not always sure, but we as taxpayers, let this.
[00:23:09] Cara: We do, we absolutely do.
[00:23:11] And let our districts off the hooks and they educate the majority of our kids. So we should not be doing that Gerard. And also like, can we maybe just start talking about accountability on the front end? I don’t know. That’s what we do when we design policy for the most part at the state level.
[00:23:25] Let’s maybe ask ourselves that question. Hopefully we don’t find ourselves in another pandemic right away. The next time we need to make a huge investment. If there’s another coming recession, let’s remember that 190 billion. And not create regulations that you could drive a truck through.
[00:23:39] GR: So, Ooh, it just reminded me.
[00:23:42] And in terms of accountability, we know that we have a school to prison pipeline. It seems that we’re more interested in holding students accountable while they’re incarcerated and making sure the institution, the department of correction, or the department of juvenile justice to make sure they do all the things right accountable to keep the public’s money.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Great. At where, when they’re in the free world, you don’t seem to have that same level of transparency and oversight. Just my thoughts.
[00:24:06] Cara: It’s a fascinating observation. I think we need to do a whole show about that at some point. All right. But you’re right. We’ve got to bring in our fabulous guests because in just a moment, listeners, we are going to be speaking with Dr.
[00:24:16] Robert Alter and he is the Ameritas professor of Hebrew and comparative literature at the university of California, Berkeley. So we’ll be back in just a minute.[00:25:00]
[00:25:29] Welcome back learning curve listeners. We are here with Dr. Robert Alter. He is the class of 1937 emeritus professor of Hebrew and comparative literature. So university of California, Berkeley, he started his career as a writer at commentary magazine, where he was for many years, a contributing editor.
[00:25:47] Professor Alter has written 28 books, including the art of biblical narrative, the art of biblical poetry, the five books of Moses, a translation with commentary, the book of Psalms, a translation with commentary [00:26:00] ancient Israel, the former. Joshua judges, Samuel and Kings a translation with commentary. And most recently he completed the three volume book, the Hebrew Bible, a translation with commentary of which the New York times wrote alters achievement is monumental marked by literary grace and intelligent commentary.
[00:26:20] In 2009, he received the Robert Kirsch award from the Los Angeles times for lifetime contribution to American. Here in his bachelor’s degree in English, from Columbia university and his master’s degree and doctorate from Harvard university and comparative literature, as well as being awarded honorary degrees by Yale university and Hebrew university, professor Robert alter.
[00:26:41] Welcome to the learning curve.
[00:26:43] Robert Alter: I’m glad to be here.
[00:26:45] Cara: Well, we’re glad to have you. And I’d like to start by asking you about your landmark book that I just mentioned the Hebrew Bible, a translation with commentary. It turns wise praised and it’s perhaps someone say the best translation now available in print.
[00:26:59] Could you [00:27:00] share with our listeners why the Hebrew Bible is probably. Influential book. Some would say that humans have ever produced and talk about, especially for teachers and students in the 21st century. I know it’s probably hard to wrap that into one little nugget, but what would you think they should draw from its knowledge and.
[00:27:18] GR: Well,
[00:27:19] Robert Alter: the obvious explanation, why the Bible has been that influential is that both Tues and Christians conceived it over the ages to be. Divinely inspired. So it was the guidebook to living the good life and blueprint for theology or generated many different theologies on the part of different things.
[00:27:46] But to me, what is interesting is that the Bible, especially I’ll focus on the Hebrew Bible which I think is different in kind in many respects for the new Testament. It [00:28:00] seems to me that the Bible transcends it’s strictly religious theological or doctrinal function. Because it is a very rich, it is in some ways, interestingly, contradictory representation of the.
[00:28:21] People struggling with their deaths in these, with the tangle of family relationships, with politics and what that does to a human being and so on and so forth. So that that’s one reason why not the only reason. So many readers who are not believers have felt that these books speak to them that they tell them something about the human condition that they provide a certain illuminating perspective on their own [00:29:00] lives.
[00:29:00] Cara: I want to pick up on that because You said that even for non-believers, it can provide an illuminating perspective on one’s own life. I mean, especially today, even, I don’t know if this is a product of me getting older, or if it’s quite real, you know, children, my own children, I look at them and I think, wow, they’re living in a time of, feels like heightened conflict.
[00:29:21] Heightened because they’re so close. Yeah. Having this understanding of it because they have such at their fingertips, the ability to, they don’t have to go far to get a Facebook feed or an Instagram notice or whatever it is that how kids get their news today. And so there’s a real need to understand how to resolve conflict, how to be a resilient, human being and survive in the face of these great challenges.
[00:29:47] Can you maybe point to. A specific story or a specific way in which an understanding of the Bible as a record of these things can help anyone confront [00:30:00] conflict or become more resilient in life.
[00:30:02] Robert Alter: Okay. First, all as your question implies, conflict is all over the place. And the Hebrew Bible because last conflict is all over the place in our history in general and all the more so at this particular moment in time.
[00:30:22] So I would Particularly focus on what seems to me, one of the greatest narratives to be produced anywhere in the ancient world. And that’s the story of David now? Okay. You think of the medieval representations of David and Christian iconography. He has a halo around his head and he’s playing a harp.
[00:30:49] And in Jewish tradition, he’s studying the Tom motor, which of course has not been composed when he was alive. But in fact, he’s much [00:31:00] more complicated and interesting and Merck. Then all those pies representation David starts off as a charismatic young man. He’s beautiful. Everybody falls in love with them.
[00:31:16] He gets into the court, but he’s been clandestinely anointed. To become the king after Saul. And that gets into the story in a whole complicated network of political machinations. Seoul eventually becomes fixated on David and a. Paranoid way, dividends, plea, and on and off. And then once David does become.
[00:31:47] King the story of conflict is not over. his forces and up in a civil war with the 10 Northern tribes [00:32:00] and once that’s resolved he has plenty of problems with his. military commander Joe out who seems to be the power behind the throne and in many ways, manipulate David And then his own son, Absalom, rebels against them. And you serve the throne. have a figure in some ways to kind of tragic figure, because the conflict between his screen, your private person, a man who loves his father the king are irreconcilable. And yet there is the kind of. Persistence in greatness and David for all his flaws.
[00:32:43] The worst of which is murdering Uriah after David has had an adulterous relationship with you, arise life, despite all that, there is something. And [00:33:00] during and noble and heartening about him. So although I hesitate to call anything, a lesson from the Bible, you can see how reading that story.
[00:33:13] you get a sense of how are you in. with all his mistakes and all his terrible conflict can persist in history and do something with his life.
[00:33:26] GR: You spent a great deal of time talking about human conflict and that’s definitely something that’s a part of what we read. I want to talk with you about the book of Exodus.
[00:33:36] Now there’s several major leaders of the American civil rights movement. Most notably Dr. King who’s heavily influenced by and drew inspiration from the book of Exodus. Be it as themes deliberation or Moses’s leadership. What did you say to our teachers and students? Really of all faiths and political viewpoints, what can they learn from the Exodus story to better understand human cohesive?
[00:33:59] Robert Alter: [00:34:00] To begin with, there has been your listeners should be aware of a whole movement in Latin America called liberation theology, which is largely based, or at least takes this point of departure from the. Michael, what the intellectual history in
[00:34:24] advanced studies years ago wrote a book called exit this and liberation, which follows this trajectory. So I would say Peculiar about the exit, his story that is this a story of national origin, but most people’s trace their origins to some glorious triumph in the past, like think of a virtual India and the, way the founding of the Roman people.
[00:34:56] Based on or can be traced [00:35:00] back to a knee is fleeing from conquered Troy, but, in acting a grand military triumph in the Italian peninsula, by contrast the Exodus story low, it’s the origins of the people in slavery. Which is almost a shocking idea. but it’s also parroting idea that is a people who has been added to.
[00:35:29] No freedom who is been worked like dogs. And in fact is then doom by a genocidal to create affecting all the Hebrew males coming from the Pharaoh. This people. Manages with the leadership of Moses recourse to extricate itself from the house of bondage and to become a great people. So it’s moving story.
[00:35:59] [00:36:00] And as I said, different from most stories of national.
[00:36:04] GR: Well to take that a story, just another step right now, Jews all over the world is celebrating Passover, which marks the Exodus of the Israelites from slavery to Egypt. Your translation of the Hebrew Bible, as we’ve said earlier, is considered a definitive.
[00:36:20] Could you talk about what educators and young people should know about the biblical narrative around this holiday?
[00:36:27] Robert Alter: I think what they should know is pretty much what I’ve just said, look, the history of the Jews after the Bible is, well, first of all, the history of the Israelites in the Bible A series of defeats.
[00:36:44] It’s little sliver, a country sandwiched in between great empires to the east and the south that the Assyrians conquer the Northern Israelite kingdom and obliterate. [00:37:00] Eventually the Babylonians conquered that Southern kingdom, then it becomes a kind of province of the person empire. So there is defeat after defeat.
[00:37:11] And then in the post-surgical period, of course, as a diaspora people, Jews were repeatedly subject to Persecution for grumpy wide-scale massacres that wasn’t all the two shifts. It was certainly an important part. And yet every year, To sit around table and they celebrate freedom. They celebrate the fact that we have come out of the house of bondage and now we are free people.
[00:37:46] So is kind of inspiring story. And certainly that’s one of the reasons why it has grabbed all kinds of Jews year after year, every April, when Passover comes here.[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] GR: Absolutely. part of any celebration is often sacred songs are sacred poems and your book, the art of biblical poetry, you’ve written about the power of poetry.
[00:38:12] Could you talk about the influence of songs and what we can learn from it regarding the ability of words and language to inspire?
[00:38:20] Robert Alter: Okay. Now it is sometimes said, but I think it’s not persuasive that the Psalms or the origin of lyric poetry the west, but what they are and the way that I think they have spoken to readers, both pious and secular is.
[00:38:43] There is a powerful, poetic expression of anguish and desperation. There are many of the Psalms where speaker in the poem seems on the point of death. And yet at the end is [00:39:00] rescued by. which is again, the agreement’s story with a happy ending. then there are a great variety in the book of Shawn.
[00:39:10] There are exuberant celebrations of the glories of creation and as Close as any biblical poetry comes to nature, poetry, even something like nature, poetry. So all this can speak to a very wide spectrum of readers and you don’t necessarily have to be a believer to be moved by all that.
[00:39:37] GR: Absolutely. Well, speaking of moving people with words, we’d like for you to provide us. A passage of your choosing to read from one of your many books.
[00:39:49] Robert Alter: what I’d like to read is the first chapter’s not very long, it’s 16 verses of the song of songs, which I think. [00:40:00] It’s one of most remarkable collections of love poetry in all of Western literature.
[00:40:08] And one of the things that makes it so beautiful is that there’s a kind of lush sensuality, but a cast in a kind of refined, delicate poetry. And then that combination is very unusual. So I tried it, my translation, which we’ll be hearing in a moment to get something of that to keep the language come pack the way the Hebrew is to use simple.
[00:40:40] Eloquent words and to get some of the rhythm of the Hebrew. So here’s chapter one, the song of saw the first speaker is the woman and that she is answered by the young man. So this is a lot of dialogue. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth[00:41:00] for your loving is. Then Y for fragrance, your oils are goodly.
[00:41:07] Poured oil is your name. And so the young women love you too. Are, may ask you, let us run the. Has brought me to his chamber. Let us be glad and rejoice in you. Let us extol your loving beyond what rightly do they love you? And then the new poem, young woman is speaking. I am dark, but desirable a daughter says Jerusalem, like the tents of kid like Solomon’s curtain do not look on me for being.
[00:41:42] For the sun has glared on me. My mother’s sons were incense with me. They made me the keeper, the vineyards, my own vineyard. I have not kept tell me whom I love. So where are you pass to your flock at noon? Thus, I [00:42:00] go straying after the flop through your companion and he answered. If you do not know, Ferris of women go out in the tracks of the sheep and graze your goats by the shepherds shelters.
[00:42:15] And then he speaks again to my mayor about Pharaoh’s chariots. I like you, my friends, your cheeks are lovely with loop earrings. Your neck would be earrings and gold. We will make for you with silver fillings. And then she speaks while the king was on his couch. My Nard gave off and sent a Sachit of mirror is my lover to me all night between my breasts, a cluster of henna, my lover to me in the venues of.
[00:42:56] , . And then he speaks, this is the end of the chapter. Oh, [00:43:00] you were fair by friend. Oh, you are fair. Your eyes are dumped. And she says, oh, you are fair. My love for you. We’re asleep. Our bed is burdened to our house. Beams are seeded our rafters evergreen.
[00:43:19] Cara: Well, Dr. Robert alter, thank you so much. That was quite beautiful. thank you for spending this time with us today and for your wide and remarkable body of work.
[00:43:29] Robert Alter: . Thank you for hosting me. It was the place.[00:44:00]
[00:44:03] GR: And my tweet of the week comes from education. Next April 17th, 2020 to what states require in their educational standards is long lasting effects on individual attitudes and occupational choices. And the next part says the costs of canceling. Definitely worth the read.
[00:44:24] Cara: Ooh, education next, always with a good headline and love it, Gerard.
[00:44:28] I’m going to go, you know, for a run. Say if I’m going to go look at the empty thought, enjoy, enjoy this beautiful day here, but we will be back again together. Next week, we will be here with professor Wilfred Schmid and he is the Dwight Parker, Robinson emeritus professor of mathematics at Harvard.
[00:44:47] He played a major role in drafting, the 2000 Massachusetts mathematics curriculum frameworks, and has served on the U S national mathematics advisory panel. Maybe he can tell me what happened to my math [00:45:00] education, because it wasn’t pretty anyway until then Gerard have a wonderful week. It’s always lovely to share this time with you.
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Hubwonk host Joe Selvaggi talks with Pioneer research associate Andrew Mikula about the need for affordable housing near the mass transit network and the requirements and local design opportunities of the 3A zoning reform law. Read Pioneer Institute’s recent public comment on this topic.
Guest
Andrew Mikula is a Research Associate at Pioneer Institute and candidate for a Master’s in Urban Planning at Harvard University.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk. I’m Joe Selvaggi.
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. Greater Boston has among the highest housing costs in the nation. Driving many low and middle income people to live farther from its thriving job market and its mass transit network. This crisis of affordability is primarily driven by restrictive local zoning laws that discourage new, more dense and less expensive townhouses and condominiums. Massachusetts has attempted to encourage affordable housing in the past with laws like 40B, which offered developers the ability to override local zoning in towns with little or no affordable units. But in the 53 years since 40B’s passage, the law has not had the effect of allowing housing supply to keep pace with housing demand, to further address this issue. A new zoning reform law that took effect in 2021 now requires communities near MBTA stops to each zone for at least 750 multifamily units by right. Designed to overcome the weaknesses of the earlier 40B legislation, the law and the guidelines were crafted in a way that encourages local design while also ensuring the units will be affordable for working families eager to be near the transit network.
Joe Selvaggi:
This zoning act referred to as 3A continues to evolve with lawmakers soliciting input from the 175 affected communities as the best ways to blend the need for more housing, with respect for each town’s design preferences. Is 3A the right law to help address the affordable housing prices in Massachusetts, or will it prove to be insufficient to compel communities to develop viable plans for new homes? My guest today is Pioneer Institute’s research associate and candidate for a master’s degree in public planning at Harvard, Andrew Mikula. Andrew recently wrote a public comment for Pioneer on the 3A compliance guidelines in which he outlined his view on the merits of the law and where the law may need improvement to achieve its goals. When I return, I’ll be joined by Pioneer Institute’s Andrew Mikula. Okay. We’re back. This is Hubwonk, I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m pleased to welcome back to the show fellow Pioneer Institute contributor, and now candidate for a master’s degree in public planning at Harvard, Andrew Mikula. Good to have you on the show, Andrew.
Andrew Mikula:
Joe, always great to be a back on Hubwonk. Thank you.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, I enjoyed reading your public comment on the compliance guidelines for the new 3A zoning reform, maybe a dry topic for our listeners, but I hope we can make it exciting and get into some of the details. As our Hubwonk listeners know, zoning does touch many of the issues we cover on the podcast that includes the high cost of housing the benefit of mass transitfor commuters and the environment and the encouragement of our Massachusetts economy. We all want to have a good place to live that helps everyone. So let’s start off with the the case for zoning reform. Why do we need to have this thing called zoning reform in the state?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah I believe it was urban economist Ed Glaeser, who observed that reforming local land use controls is one of those rare areas in which the libertarian and the progressive agree obviously that doesn’t extend to every individual with those persuasions. But I think that it’s the kind of union of kind of advancing property rights. And also when you restrict the supply of housing, you know, wealthier people tend to bid up the price of existing units that otherwise might have remained more affordable. And so this has huge implications for who can access jobs and amenities in a given area because when you restrict the supply of housing in an area, the people who would have lived in those new units don’t just go away. They’re forced to move elsewhere, further outside of, or away from major job centers.
Andrew Mikula:
And often to communities that have, you know worse schools or higher crime, et cetera, than places with the most stringent zoning laws. So it’s really the intersection of economic opportunity property rights and also the environment because people living further away from job centers means, you know, you have to drive further to get anywhere and also communities where your push to when development isn’t allowed to kind of concentrate within the existing footprint of community. You know, that development tends to be kind of sprawling and away from transit and walkable villages.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, I’m glad you point that out. I’ll entertain my own little rant here. I’m passionate about zoning. And I think I have friends who push back both from my conservative friends on, on the one side and my progressive friends on the other I’ll remind the conservatives on the that are listening that, but we are proud of the fact that this is the land of opportunity. So we should all be working to, to enlarge the, the range of opportunity for our fellow Americans. And for those on the on the progressive side, I see many in the Le living in the leafy suburbs with those nifty on signs that say, you know, in this house, we believe they’re the same people who will have be at the, the zoning meetings and want to restrict what can be built in their community.
Joe Selvaggi:
And they, I think as you mentioned so well they don’t realize the consequence of, of limiting growth or, or building. I means only very, very affluent people can, can live in that community. And if I’ll, I’ll editorialize one little bit more in my view the, the most pernicious effects of poverty or low income is not lack of food or shelter or clothing. It’s rather the, the isolation that’s created in those communities where they have very few links to good education, good employment, or connections to those civic institutions, you know, those little platoons that, that connect us to greatest society that’ll service for the rest of our lives. So zoning reform is important to me from my perspective, because I wanna make sure that lower income Americans aren’t in a sense isolated from the society and the community and the employment world.
Joe Selvaggi:
So, so I’ll set to, you know, lay my cards on the table at the start of our conversation and, and dive in from there. So so let’s follow the, the history of zone owning reform. Back when I was at Kennedy school, we, we studied a lot about this 40 B. This was back in 1969. It was a, an aspiration to encourage communities to build more diverse housing supply. Give us a little history on how what that 40 B entailed and what have been the results of start with the positive effects in the last, I guess, 50 years now.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So chapter 40 B basically mandated that every community in Massachusetts have at least 10% of its housing stock in the states, subsidized housing inventory, or Shi to both increase the stock of affordable housing overall and avoid concentrating it in areas that were deprived of economic opportunity before. And like you said, allowing kind of access to high opportunity areas for, for people of lesser means. And if you don’t comply with chapter 40 B developers can essentially ignore certain aspects of your town zoning laws. And the state can overturn any denial of a project whose residential component has at least 20 to 25% affordable units. So chapter 40 B success has been in creating more 60,000 units of housing that likely otherwise wouldn’t have been built over the last 50 plus years. And many of those, those units are, you know, permanently affordable deed, restricted, et cetera.
Joe Selvaggi:
So that sounds like it, you know, 60,000 sounds like a lot, although it’s 50 years or 55 years, that’s yeah. De of the math, not, not that many. How is its worthy aspirations fallen short have, have all the communities in, in Massachusetts Leafly complied with its directions.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think you’re you’re setting up the answer there quite intentionally. So the reality is more than three quarters of communities in Massachusetts still don’t comply with 40 B. A lot of them have taken the risk over the years, that if they don’t take steps to meet this, the affordable housing goal set by the state, then developers simply wouldn’t propose any projects under chapter 40 B that would allow them to skirt the town zoning laws. And the last decade or so was really a tipping point in a lot of Boston suburbs in that they started seeing these proposals come through because the market was really hot. The, the rents started to adjust toy, including these affordable units and the state was more desperate than ever to make a dent in this housing crisis, but at the same time, this sort of coercive tactic because of non-compliance with 40 B has in a lot of ways, deepened the hostility between real estate developers and, and some suburban communities. So, so I guess that’s the negative aspect of chapter 40 B.
Joe Selvaggi:
So the need has become greater. The resistance has become greater. So an unstoppable force means it’s the immovable object. So here we are back in 2021, then we passed something called section three, a we’ll call it section three, a, which was meant to learn from the, I guess, the shortcomings of 40 B and, and try to take another crack at it and, and sort of provide some kind of compromise between the needs of the community and the needs for more dense development. So let’s let’s start with three a what weaknesses in 48 did it address and how did it address it?
Andrew Mikula:
So big section three, a requires communities with access to the M BTA Boston’s public transit network to allocate at least 50 acres of land near an M BTA station to buy right multifamily housing development of a density of at least 15 acres, excuse me, 15 units per acre. So the law also requires that these new zoning districts accommodate families with children because oftentimes suburban communities only build dense housing that’s made for seniors because, you know, they don’t want to have to pay for kids to go to school. Right. so this section three a is an effort to tie service, provision buses and trains to connect these places to good jobs shops and recreation opportunities to the state’s ambitions to make sure everyone is able to obtain a suitable and affordable home in a tight market.
Joe Selvaggi:
I, I find that interesting. I don’t think that there’s, anything’s such thing in 40 B, but in three a the logic follow me if, if, if this is true or not, let me know. I think the logic is if you have a a tee stop and, and it does differentiate between a, a train light rail or a bus, but let’s just say, if you have access to mass transit therefore you have some public good, that is, you’ve been fortunate enough to have been built in your town for your benefit. And perhaps as, as a payback for such a wonderful resource I don’t know what the right word would be, but I’m gonna use payback. You ought to then become as you have this wonderful benefit in a sense payback by providing access or some set aside land 50 acres on which more dense housing can be built with the logic being, okay. The people who move in there can easily get to their jobs using mass transit fewer cars, it’s greener development. And you know, everybody wins the environment, the community and the people who go live there.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, you know, you’re absolutely right about the, the kind of the pact that the state is, is signing with these communities that if you kind of benefit from having a direct connection via mass transit to greater Boston, all the opportunities set of fors, you know, you need to kind of contribute to overcoming barriers to opportunities that are kind of the housing prices and, and, and lack of availability of appropriate homes for, for families. You know, that’s, that’s what the problem is that that’s kind of solving in a way this, this law is attempting to solve.
Joe Selvaggi:
And let’s be honest, if you have a, a teeth or brain stop in your town your house is more valuable by, by, by virtue of that fact, right? You you know, your commuters paradise, as they often say in the listing how many communities are identified in three a I know there’s 300, so communities in, in Massachusetts, how many are connected by, by mass transit?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So the state definition of MBTA communities they’re 175 almost half of all the municipalities in the state. And the state actually further differentiates these communities based on whether they have access to a subway or light rail station rapid transit, a commuter rail station that often travels further distances or only bus lines or are merely communities that are merely close to a tees stop, that’s located in another community. So there’s some differentiation in, in the bylaw, what the uniting kind of factor is. They either have a bus or a train station that ultimately connects them to Boston, or, you know, they benefit from the presence of a bus or train station in a nearby community.
Joe Selvaggi:
So it could be a train stop in your town or near a train stop in someone else’s town. But they have different categories. We’ll get a little bit into that later on. Of course now we’re talking about natural tension between communities have decided not to build more dense housing you either deliberately or less deliberately and and regional need for housing, which we all agree is, is, is almost at crisis levels here. So 40 B kind of went in this direction and a lot of people in a sense, ignored it. How does three a have a little more bite? How does it sort of square that circle communities don’t want it the region does want it, how do we sort of in a sense, appease or acknowledge and, and assuage the concerns of communities that something someone’s not gonna come in and build something they don’t like?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So section three a is at an attempt, you know, pretty similar to 40 B in a way to make these towns and cities proactively anticipate denser development so that they can determine its location, design details and other specifications on their own terms. 50 acres of dense zoning sound like a lot, but really it’s less than 10% of the land within a half mile radius of a given tee stop. So it’s still providing some flexibility to local governments in the implementation stage, which I’d say is crucial for the political legitimacy of this process. Also, unlike chapter 40 B, it’s not every community in the state that has to comply with this. It’s only communities that directly benefit from the MBT services. But even if you’re, you know, one of those communities I think the, the kind of silver lining is you get a lot of say in exactly what this 50 acres of dense zoning is going to look like in your community.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I don’t wanna generalize, but I just say, I, I think with 40 B the dynamic was for those towns that didn’t have diverse housing stock it allowed a developer to override the local zoning in a sense, build a project and effectively force it on a community. And, and there, we had a pitch battle. Instead, this seems like a very, very different approach, which is you say to each of those 175 communities, you know, you tell us where you want the 50 acres to be, and you tell, and you give us design parameters that integrate well with your community, right? The project be developed and sold the community itself, defines what the project will look like. And, and then, you know, developers can either go after it or not do, is that a meaningful difference? Is, do I have that about right?
Andrew Mikula:
Yes. And I, and I, I think a big piece I haven’t necessarily touched upon so far is, you know, these multifamily zoning districts need to be allow for by right development. So, you know, in mandating by right development, the process gets a lot less discretionary for, you know, approvals at local level. You know, it’s still gonna require bureaucrats to interpret the law, but it should be more transparent about why a project is being approved or denied than it was before. And that both kind of affords a, a level of, of control at the local level in a way that wasn’t there before. Because it’s either, you know, a yes or a no, and there’s, there’s not much in between. And it could help potentially reduce corruption in the real estate development process, which has been in an issue in, in greater Boston for a long time,
Joe Selvaggi:
Explain that dynamic. So, okay. In the old world, the 40 B I wanna build the town doesn’t want this project. I appeal to the state and the state said, no, you gotta let this guy build. But then they drag me through the approval process because they you know, I have to jump through hoops naturally, the big developer who has deep pockets might grease the skids by <affirmative> for lack of a better term bribing those people who are approving the project. How does, I mean, we can see how the, those incentives would exist and we don’t want this to happen. How would three a prevent that kind of dynamic? I know it’s maybe a occur, but how, how do you, how would you prevent bribery in, in this kind of world?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think, you know, by right development makes it less likely that corruption will occur because, you know, you really have to determine in advance what the criteria are for whether development’s allowed in a good even site and, and for a given project. So hypothetically it should all be in the, the codes, whether this is a given project is allowable, as opposed to having a kind of design review board or a review process among public officials that’s up for negotiation. And I think that, you know, our open meeting laws in Massachusetts go a long way towards increasing transparency around this regardless. But I think that there are certainly, or could be opportunities under something like chapter 40 B to kind of compromise the integrity of officials. And in the past, it’s also been controversial when cities and towns kind of require developers to do to perform kind of mitigations for the impacts of their project that aren’t necessarily directly related to the project. You know, I think paving adjacent streets or paying into the, kind of the city’s school fund is one thing. But if you are doing kind of offsite interventions and whatnot as a form of mitigation to the town that gets legally ambiguous,
Joe Selvaggi:
Right. That that’s the town’s shaking down the developer. So it goes both ways, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so, again, I don’t wanna put you find a point on it, but because three a the town, what the parameters of an acceptable building are, it hasn’t been black and white, the meetings are public. So provided the developer sticks to that plan. There should, there’s no really prerogative to, to shoot it down. You know, you, they have to come up with the reason why it violated the rules ahead of time. We set the rules, you follow the rules, the thing gets built. There’s no sort of back and forth no, no changing of the gold post as it were that, that, that seems to make sense. Now we’ve talked about many of the positive attributes of the three a and how it can encourage towns to have some latitude over what gets built, where it gets built you in your paper, in your comments, you did have some criticism of where it falls short. I think it, in particular you point out that there’s 50 acres and 15 units per acre in some towns you, you need some flexibility. You need to be able to say your goal is not square miles or square feet, but rather how many units get built. We, we, we’re not concerned about how big the project is, but how many people live there, same more about your concerns in that regard.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, so, you know, like I mentioned, it’s 15 units per acre is how dense each zone is required to be which is certainly less dense than most of the block sized, four to six story apartment buildings that have been built throughout the Boston region and recent year. And in my public comment, I can compare the density level mandated by three a, to a row of triple Deckers and Wooster with enough space between them, for each one to have a driveway. But to individual towns can certainly go higher than that. But right now higher than that 15, eight units per or acre. But right now they can’t go lower. And this is in my mind, an opportunity to have even more flexibility in the implementation stage. I think, you know, density is a, you know, in some regards a goal in and of itself in that it can require, or it can enable more compact walkable communities, but really it’s more of a byproduct of the proximity of amenities.
Andrew Mikula:
And so section three, a guidelines seem to focus more on the total amount of land area, devoted to multifamily housing around the transit amenities rather than the actual number of units that could be created in that zoning district. So I think it’s a matter of you know, the agency that’s responsible for, for crafting these guidelines, the, the department of housing and community development and massive two sets kind of getting its messaging right on this. And I’m interested in how they respond to my comments on their use of land area as an important compliance indicator, as opposed to what I think should be the ultimate goal increasing housing production and ultimately affordability.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you would advocate, you say, some town might say let’s we’ll, we’ll, we’ll cut it down to 25 acres, but we’ll make it twice as dense that you, you think there should be that kind of flexibility based on the needs of the town
Andrew Mikula:
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I could, I could certainly see a case at the town level for making that sort of arrangement, because if you think about a limited area of 50 acres, you know, why wouldn’t you want, you know, 25 of those acres to be reserved for open space or new civic uses or, or something like that. And I understand that that kind of the, a higher density level of 15 nos per acre might not feel right to every community, but I think at the, the very least it should be allowed in the bylaw. It shouldn’t be as prescriptive as it is from the state’s perspective on the, the total land area devoted to this that increasing housing production is a much more noble goal than having development spread out over a given amount of a life.
Joe Selvaggi:
I did a little, your, your paper sparked my curiosity about how dense my community is. I’m a back Bayer, it’s a 61 units per acre. So, and it’s not such a bad life here. So in, in <laugh> and reading your comments it seems like there’s a, a mandate for, you know, setting aside this land. Is there any specific requirement to actually build there, or is the assumption that, you know, if, if you set it aside, you create the parameters the market will take care of itself. Someone will show up and start building is there any mandate to, to actually build
Andrew Mikula:
Well, yeah, not really. The D H C D has focused on the regulatory aspects of development and rather than the kind of ultimate result. And like I said, I’m, I’m, I think there might be some room for a shift in the messaging down a line on this, but right now, I think the, the crucial thing the D H C D is addressing right now is the need for by right development that occurs with these zoning districts as opposed to making the process as kind of messy and, and discretionary as it has been in recent years when these communities have wrestled with the question of density. And so I think if you allow the, the state to kind of you know, focus on the regulatory aspects upfront then, and there’s enough, flexibility, enough kind of scope to the the zoning changes, then, you know, eventually if these developments are viable financially some of them will get built, maybe not all, but I, I think that part of zoning reform is accepting kind of uncertainty in how exactly this plays out. So,
Joe Selvaggi:
Oh, and that’s a great answer. So we didn’t go into detail, but I’d like to do that. Now, there are subtypes within these communities 175 communities, but I think there’s four subtypes and each has a different deadline for when it needs to be done. And I think in your paper, you mentioned, it’s, it’s sort of upside down the, those communities that are perhaps bigger and will have more of difficulty finding 50 acres or whatever their plan is. They’re first to comply. And those more rural communities have a little more time. You, you mentioned it’s probably the other way around you know, if you don’t have wide open space, you, you, you’ve got a lot of other competing interests. It’s gonna take you more time than it will for the more community, but say more about four different types and, and where those deadlines fall.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think it’s, you know, one of the smaller kind of details in from my my public comments, but I did mention that MBTA communities located on subway and light rail lines, you know, mall than Brookline Quincy, et cetera, have to submit their plans for achieving compliance before more suburban or exurban community commuter rail towns do like Grotton Ashland Middleborough. So to me, this doesn’t make sense because it’s probably gonna be harder to determine where to put these zoning districts in already built up communities. Especially once you consider that a lot of those communities have diverse immigrant groups, significant student populations, et cetera, that might need some sort of special outreach efforts. So there are a lot of other aspects of the guide lines where drawing a distinction among the MBTA communities makes sense, but I don’t think the deadlines for submitting action plans is one of them
Joe Selvaggi:
Now listeners to this are, you know, again, if they’re for against it, I think there’s probably a divided audience. Some are saying is the last thing I want and others are saying, you know, this is a great idea. Is there anything, you know someone who isn’t pleased with the, the idea of three a, could they be immediately out there changing the zoning laws in their town to, in a sense, make it impossible for these zones to be created? Is, is there a sort of a defensive move that, that will thwart the best intentions of this legislation?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, that, that’s an important question. So the D H C D wants to monitor communities so that it can rescind a community’s compliant status if they change their multi-family transit oriented zoning districts. After the fact the problem is that’s a huge administrative burden on the D H C D to keep track of zoning changes in 175 towns and cities. So that’s one of the major enforcement related questions about section three, a that is yet to be answered. And ideally the towns and cities would have to report these zoning changes to the D H C D themselves. But for now it’s unclear exactly how that will be implemented and enforced.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, that brings me to, again, we’re getting close to our, our, the end of our time together. Then we started the show by talking about 40B many, many communities just said, thanks, but no, thanks. Really what power does the state have to enforce 3A, you know, you, you’re, you’re dealing with a zoning requirement, but the community’s just saying, you know, thank you, we’re all set, you know, don’t bother us. What, what enforcement mechanism is there.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I, I touched upon it earlier. But basically there’s a rigorous process for coming into compliance with section three, a that involves submitting action plans and later reporting facts about the zoning districts to the D H C, D, and the big kind of punishment for not doing so, is that the towns that are out of compliance, won’t be able to obtain grants for infrastructure, housing choice, or other local capital projects
Joe Selvaggi:
But do all towns. And I think that you addressed this in paper or a paper you sent to me, I think maybe even in the Brookings paper that you also sent to me you know, only a small percentage of towns get those grants, you know, in general, more affluent communities may not need these, these grants. So there there’s no in the proverbial carrot and stick scenario, there’s no carrot. Is there a stick if, if there is no carrot, if the community doesn’t need the state in any way?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. I think there’s a case to be made that taking away these grant opportunities will not sufficiently deter some communities from simply ignoring section 3A’s requirements. But perhaps a stricter punishment scheme would hurt the political viability of the law overall. So it’s a balancing act. I, I think in the long term, the big stick is that as long as Massachusetts has an affordable housing crisis in know this sort of paradigm of the state playing a bigger role in putting forth sustainable development proposals is not going away. You know, California is even further down this path than we are. And even within Massachusetts, I know there are several communities that you know, learn their lesson on 40 B and want to be more proactive about implementing section three, a and so I think the, the kind of long view of this is the recognition that, you know, it’s now, or never, you can plan for, for change, or, you know, the state can, can kind of pull up the rug out from under take that control away. And you know, maybe the ultimatum hasn’t quite come to pass for, for a lot of these communities yet, but I think that it’s going to, it’s only gonna get stricter going forward. As long as this housing crisis is continues to get worse.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you know, this is where we’ll have to wrap up our show, but to translate thatit’s coming more diverse housing stock is coming to your community. It behooves the town leaders to make a plan that works for that community. Otherwise, something that may not work as well for that community is going to be imposed on them in the future. Inevitably. Is that a fair summation?
Andrew Mikula:
I think so. I think the politics of this have changed rapidly even in the last 10 years. And there’s now a greater kind of recognition that this housing shortage isn’t only affecting, you know, people who are low income. It’s also the middle class. It’s also, you know, working people, teachers and firefighters and mail carriers. Right. So and I think that’s, that started to kind of change the calculus on to what extent this needs to be top priority on Beacon Hill.
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed, we want a healthy community and a home for all the people who work here, not just the very rich and unfortunately the very poor and we want to integrate communities. So we’re bumping up against each other in each of our respective communities. We don’t want to be economically isolated or economically segregated. We want to have more integrated communities. I think that’s music to those of us who love markets ears. These are artificial barriers, not real barriers and we’ll all do better to see some reform here. So let’s take us out here by telling us where can our listeners learn more about your comments and how can they, in a sense bring this knowledge to their next city hall planning meeting and engage with their community leaders.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, the state has a great web page full of information on section three, a it’s called multifamily zoning requirement for MBTA communities. ‘d Also recommend checking out Salim Firth’s great map pointing out which communities are currently in compliance and which aren’t, he’s
Joe Selvaggi:
At the he’s at the me Mercatus Institute, right. Or center Mercatus center,
Andrew Mikula:
Right? Yes. Thank you. Yeah. <laugh> yeah. Oh, you mean our,
Joe Selvaggi:
We don’t all know, we don’t all know where it is. <Laugh>
Andrew Mikula:
On. All right. And, and also encourage you to get in touch with your local town planner, community development department, or town manager, and, and ask about what your community is doing to comply with the new law. And if you wanna read my public comments in folder there@pioneerinstitute.org under our recent research section.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. Well, that’s great. Well, we’ll wrap up this show there. That’s, that’s been a lot, it’s a lot for our listeners to digest, but I think you were clear at least we’ve wet their appetite for this issue. And then they can take it from there in their own local community. So I wanna thank you very much for joining me again on hub, long as, as usual, you’re a fund of information.
Andrew Mikula:
Thank you, Joe. Always a pleasure to be on Hubwonk.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. If you enjoy today, show there’s several ways to support us and Pioneer Institute. It would be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to Hubwonk on your iTunes podcast, catcher, if you’d like to make it easier for others to find Hubwonk, it would be great if you offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share Hubwonk with friends, if you have ideas or comments or suggestions for me on topics for future episodes, you’re welcome to email me at Hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
Recent Episodes
This week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with Evan Silverio, child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic, President and CEO of Silverio Insurance Agency, and founder of Diverse Real Estate, both in Lawrence, Massachusetts. With the example set by his mother, who founded the agency, Evan has achieved success, despite getting into real estate during a housing bust. Evan has since purchased nearly 100 properties across the commonwealth. He describes the examples set by his immigrant mother and grandfather, and how that shaped not just his approach to business but also giving back to the community that nurtured him, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.
Guest
Evan Silverio is the owner of Silverio Insurance in Lawrence, MA. He began working as a loan officer with Wells Fargo Home Mortgage after college. Four years later and while continuing to work as a loan officer, Evan joined his family’s business as a licensed Property and Casualty insurance agent. In 2009, Evan created Diverse Real Estate LLC: an entity used to buy, repair, sell and rent real estate property. Over the years, Evan managed to more than quadruple the insurance agency’s book of business while at the same time purchasing over 90 properties as a real estate investor. Evan also expanded the agency by adding another location in Haverhill, MA in 2018. In December of 2019 Evan purchased the agency from his parents and took over as President/CEO. In January of 2020, Evan also purchased the reputable Woodcome Insurance Agency, in Leominster, MA. Outside of his career, community service has always been high on Evan’s list of priorities. Dedicating time and donating to non-profits and charitable events has always been common practice by Evan and his family. In 2001, He co-founded The BEYOND Scholarship fund that assisted with financial burdens for students looking to enroll in private high schools. The fund has awarded nearly $50,000 in scholarships. Evan served three years as the Chair of the Lawrence Redevelopment Authority and is currently on the Executive Committee of the Lawrence Partnership. He graduated from Wheaton College in Norton, MA, with a bachelor’s degree in economics.
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Denzil Mohammed:
I’m Denzil Mohammed, welcome to Jobmakers
Denzil Mohammed:
In report from the immigrant learning center, titled adult children of immigrant entrepreneurs. It was found that children of immigrant business owners tended to work careers that helped people social work, healthcare education, rather than entrepreneurship makes sense. They’ve seen how much effort it takes to run a business in a new country while trying to learn the language laws and customs. At the same time. In fact, the report found that the parents often dissuade their children from following the path they chose for Evan Silvio, child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic, president and CEO of Silvio insurance agency and founder of diverse real estate, both in Lawrence, Massachusetts, he bit the bullet. And with the example set by his mother who founded the agency achieved success, eventually getting into real estate during a housing bust, wasn’t easy, but just like the everance his mother embodied Evan stuck with it and has since purchased nearly 100 properties across the Commonwealth. Evan describes the example set by his immigrant mother and grandfather and how that shaped, not just his approach to business, but also his approach to giving back to the community that near kind of like those other children of immigrant entrepreneurs. I mentioned, as you learn in this week’s job makers,
Denzil Mohammed:
Evan Silverio, president CEO, Silverio Insurance Agency, and manager of Diverse Real Estate, welcome to the Jobmakers podcast. How are you?
Evan Silverio:
Thank you. Thank you so much, thank you for having me.
Denzil Mohammed:
So tell us a little bit about your businesses and also perhaps tell us a little bit about the things that matter most to you as a professional and an entrepreneur.
Evan Silverio:
My mother was, you know, extremely intelligent, hardworking, fearless individual. I myself and two older sisters that were born here, you know, it’s interesting. She gave me the name, Evan, because she liked the name, but because she thought it was going to be easier on me in my transition in the United States. Right. But funny enough, a lot of people find it confusing. They call me Kevin. So didn’t go as as planned. My parents were strict. They were also very aspirational coming from another country indirectly, I learned a lot through their own struggles as immigrants long working hours failing out at a lot of business, different business ventures navigating the school systems helping family with immigration paperwork. I remember a story about my sister my older sister going to school. And my mother really had to fight for her, for them to accept her in the school system and not put her in a Spanish speaking class.
Denzil Mohammed:
Like the English language program or something.
Evan Silverio:
Yeah and I remember that being a huge struggle. And eventually, you know, she put up such a fight that they allowed her to participate and my sister did fine and she excelled. So it was interesting. But for us, it was normal, we’re around a lot of immigrants, so it made it even that much more normal.
Denzil Mohammed:
So you spoke a little bit about your mother and I think you alluded to her determination and her perseverance in the situation with your sister at school. Tell us a little bit more about your mother. She is an entrepreneur, a community leader. She even ran from Mayor of Lawrence. That is incredibly cool. And incredibly, as you say, aspirational, tell us more about her.
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, like I mentioned you know, when, when I think about my mother just intelligent, hard work and fearless, but also funny, passionate, you know, bighearted I think, I think she spent most of her life making sure that everyone else was okay. And that’s exactly how she formed her business and why she gave dedicated long hours to the community, her church, her family, right. Her business was basically established because she was helping friends and family fill out paperwork do translations immigration consulting,then after that it leads to taxes and eventually to insurance. And it was more out of her dedication to her community that she also found a way to monetize it and say, okay, well, I need to also run a business. So,there has to be some fees associated with that. Ubut it wasn’t about the money either because most of our time through the community was volunteer work, right. City counselor, or running for mayor and, and saying, you know, we’re gonna do, or her time on the boards,umore volunteer work than anything.
Denzil Mohammed:
I do want to make a point that, you know, she started these successful businesses here. And as you say, it indirectly affected and improved the community. But she would not have been able to start her own business back in the Dominican Republic if she were living there, right?
Evan Silverio:
The opportunity to help other people who really needed someone like her, a voice, a representative of sorts. And I think, you know, she used all of the skills that she, she had and, and, and really shined being here in particular in Lawrence. But I think the type of person my mother was, she would’ve been successful in the Dominican Republic.
Denzil Mohammed:
So let’s turn it over to you now tell us about your real estate business that you started in 2009 while still in your twenties. What has that been like and how do you see this business growing in the future?
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, the real estate business is just essentially myself investing in real estate. So prior to jumping on board to the family business, I was a loan officer for a total of nine years, I think, four years before jumping on board. And then while I was doing insurance, I was also continuing the loan officer career. And the reason being is I just needed the money. Right. when my mother came and asked me to jump into the family business and she couldn’t afford much, right. So I said, okay, let me, you know, come on board. And, and, and I’ll continue doing mortgage as best I can with the same amount of time through the through mortgages and through being a loan consultant I just recognized real estate a little bit.
Evan Silverio:
I could understand it a little bit and I decided, you know, what I think I can throw my hat in the ring and, and try to make some money in real estate. And my first two investments failed. They were terrible failures. And so, yeah, so it was pretty interesting. It was during the real estate boom and bust. And, and I got caught with some real estate in my hand, but for some reason I said to myself, I still still believe, you know, that this is a good time to invest. So while everybody else was kind of back pedaling, I got back on the horse, started investing again. And,it was hard, you know, you have to sacrifice, you have to make sure you do good by a lot of people.
Evan Silverio:
You know, as I mentioned earlier, it was a lot of hard money lending in order to get some investments in but the reason that I that I thought it was interesting, was it, my reasoning kept on changing over time. Initially it was, you know, if I can just get a property to pay for my auto loan, that’d be great. And then it said, well, if I could do that, I can get a property to pay for, you know, wherever I was gonna live. And that would be great. And then it just kept on going and snowballing and you know, and a hundred properties later, you know, you change it and say, well, passive income. It has a retirement plan. There’s booming equity. And now it’s funding certain acquisitions for the insurance agency. So it’s, it’s kind of working out well.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow. I like how that it balances out with the insurance agency too. And as you say, a hundred properties, that is incredible. So you spoke a lot about you and your mother’s community involvement and you know, the model of her business, helping people with immigration forms and taxes and venturing that into a business, monetizing it your involvement today stretches from the Lawrence redevelopment authority to a scholarship fund you started with Grammy-winning producer and Lawrence native DJ Buddha. So tell me what is the guiding principle behind this kind of work that you do?
Evan Silverio:
Honestly, I think it just comes from this responsibility to give back, to contribute, the scholarship fund, as you mentioned with DJ Buddha, he was a Lawrentian such as myself. He went to Central Catholic with me and I think post graduation once we had some money in our pocket we had a clear understanding that the reasons we were allotted certain opportunities was because of the opportunities that we were given to attend, you know a higher education than the high school level. And we wanted to give other people that same opportunity. We think that really was a pivot a game changer for us in our younger years. And and if other people can have that same experience and we can make that same pivot for other people, then, then we were going to put some effort into that.
Evan Silverio:
But I think it really down to the responsibility to contribute and give back where, and when we can. I think now where I have less time on my hands I know that I still have in the back of my head because part of the whole business plan be it with real estate or be it with the insurance, is to make sure that successful enough, that we can continue to, to contribute to those in the private sector, nonprofit or just community, a advocates that that align with our belief system. And hopefully we can contribute because they need capital to do what they do. So if we can be a source for them then, then we’ll be happy to be <affirmative>
Denzil Mohammed:
As you talk about community development. I, I really think deeply of Lawrence, which of course, you know, had all the mills and it had that sort of boon, and then it sort of busted, and it became a place where immigrants moved in because the rents were cheap. I recall your mother saying that it wasn’t until Latinos were elected to the city, a council, that things really began to change for minorities in terms of access to help and growing their businesses and things like that in terms of economic development in Lawrence, where do you see Lawrence headed and what changes would you like to see, or what changes would you like to, to help bring about?
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, Lawrence is definitely evolving. And I think that you’re looking at the tail end of some great things, right. Lawrence 15, 20 years ago is a totally different Lawrence. And I think I think we have a lot of communities asking our local leaders right now. How, how did Lawrence do it? I was just on a call the other day with, I think it was Chicopee asking and picking our brain on, Hey, you know, we, we saw everything that you were able to do, you know, can you give us some, some pointers, right. And, and what’s funny is the pointers really come down to that. You really just have to have enough people invested who want it bad enough to roll up their sleeves, to try to get the work done, right? Whatever changes and the better the plan than, than the better, the more the buy-in.
Evan Silverio:
But if you don’t have the people it’s gonna be a very difficult thing to move. The city in Lawrence, we have that we have private, we have public have nonprofit, all collaborating and working together. This has been the fundamental difference. There is no one person or entity who’s done it all. It’s a combined effort over a long period of time. So I think a lot of people say, oh, wow. Overnight, no, it’s, <laugh>, it’s, you know, 30 years in the making. So it definitely, it takes a village but we need more villagers to take pride and to participate. We can’t afford to wait for someone else to make these changes for us. We need to be the change.
Denzil Mohammed:
And it’s safe to say that immigrants, business owners, workers, community members are part of that change. In Lawrence, I was, I remember talking to Theresa Park on this podcast and she was very proud of the work that she was able to accomplish in Lawrence, which was incidentally, the place where her Korean family moved when they first came to the us. Finally you said your, you know, your grandfather moved from the Dominican Republic to the us and eventually sent for your mother. It wasn’t an easy task for either of them. And, you know, your mom walking around with dictionaries at school, and I have that vivid memory in my head, but she stuck with it. And here you are reflect on those risks that they took and compare it perhaps to the risks that you take as an entrepreneur.
Evan Silverio:
Cause I, I think about, about it off, I think about it off in the risk that they take. And I think a, a lot of what I’ve done has been based on thinking about in retrospect, the sacrifices that were made by all of those that came before me. I think I mentioned that earlier. I think about a lot of the risks that I’ve taken as an investor, you know, the hard money land, the, the, the large risks that I’ve taken. And I, by far cannot compare that to the risks of my grandfather. My mother, my father, who came here you know when I think about it, I think it’s because I still live in my comfort zone and my choices be it co college or career, we all closely <affirmative>, you know relative to where my family is and, and what I thought my options were.
Evan Silverio:
But just having those options, just having options in general, I think a lot of people take for granted, right? You don’t have to be right about your options, but you still have options. Right. but their risk and, and their decisions revolved around something deeper the safety of their families to book people in better positions, that’s not so much themselves, but their, but their daughters, their sons, their, the, and, and the sons and daughters of, of sons and daughters to have more resources you know, they, they, weren’t looking to be millionaires. They, they were just looking for a better life and they risked it all to do so they came to this country with no real money no real connections and no resources. And so they got here and they, they figure it out, right.
Evan Silverio:
There was this, this myth that the country that they were going to had this stuff waiting for them. And this was still a better option than just staying put. Right. and, you know, I, I think nobody goes into something and, and takes risks and says, this is a bad idea, but let me do it anyway, everybody, the whatever risk they’re taking is because there’s some reward and, and, and something. And I think in retrospect I, myself and the reward and hopefully my kids, kids as well of all the sacrifices that they’ve made,
Denzil Mohammed:
I did not mean to exclude dad. We have to mention dad <laugh> as well. Last I’m sure that they’re gonna be young brown boys and girls teenagers, people in their twenties who perhaps consider starting their own business. What advice would you give to young body budding entrepreneurs, or what are some of the lessons that you’ve learned that you think you would like to impart
Evan Silverio:
There? Nothing builds nothing, beats out, keeping your word, you know building trust you know, those things, that’s what everything is based off of. Right. I relationships with bankers, relationship with networking people, all of that is gonna continue building. The more that you can build your trust with them and complete the task that you say you’re gonna complete. If you continue doing that, I think more people will follow you. I think more people will trust you. I think more people will invest in you and you have to be willing to take that risk on yourself and say, you’re good enough. And, and, and you’re trustworthy enough and, and don’t break, don’t break that for anything or anybody not even money. And if you keep at it, you will succeed,
Denzil Mohammed:
Not even money. I love how you phrased that. Evan Silverio, President & CEO of Siverio Insurance Agency in Lawrence, Haverhill and Woburn and sole manager of Diverse real estate, thank you so much for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. This was a lovely and fascinating interview.
Evan Silverio:
Thank you so much, Denzil, for having me and I love the podcast, and I’ll continue to keep listening.
Denzil Mohammed:
Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and the Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not for profit that gives immigrants a voice. I am so happy that you joined us for this week’s powerful story of immigrant entrepreneurship passed down to the next gen. Remember, you can subscribe to Jobmakers on Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. And please leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another Jobmakers.
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UC-Berkeley Prof. Robert Alter on the Hebrew Bible’s Wide Literary Influence
/in Featured, Podcast /by Editorial StaffThis week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Cara Candal and Gerard Robinson talk with Dr. Robert Alter, Emeritus Professor of Hebrew and Comparative Literature at the University of California at Berkeley, and author of the landmark three-volume book, The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary. As Jews around the world celebrate Passover this week, Dr. Alter shares why the Hebrew Bible is probably the most influential book in human history, and the larger lessons 21st century teachers and students should draw from its timeless wisdom. They also discuss the text as a record of the Jewish people, and vital historical lessons of persecution, resilience, and survival. Professor Alter describes how the Psalms and the Book of Exodus’ stories of liberation and Moses’ leadership inspired several of the major figures of the Civil Rights Movement. The interview concludes with Dr. Alter reading from his trilogy.
Stories of the Week: In California, K-12 public school enrollment has declined below 6 million for the first time in over two decades, with COVID accounting for only some of the loss. New Brookings research explores whether major federal aid packages directed to schools during COVID, and after the 2008 Great Recession, have been used for the intended purpose.
Guest
The next episode will air on Weds., April 27th, with Dr. Wilfried Schmid, Dwight Parker Robinson Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at Harvard University, who played a major role in the drafting of the 2000 Massachusetts Mathematics Curriculum Framework, and served on the U.S. National Mathematics Advisory Panel in 2008.
Tweet of the Week
News Links
California public school enrollment drops below 6 million mark
https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2022/04/california-public-school-enrollment/
Has federal crisis spending for K-12 schools served its intended objectives?
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2022/04/12/has-federal-crisis-spending-for-k-12-schools-served-its-intended-objectives/
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
[00:00:00] GR: Welcome back to another exciting session with Cara and I on the learning curve. For those of you who celebrated the holiday weekend, hope you’ve had a great time with family, with friends or just yourself. We had a chance to do some great things to family, and it was good to be in a faith setting with people that I haven’t had a chance to be with in over a year and a half.
[00:00:44] So it was good on my end. What about you?
[00:00:47] Cara: we had a very nice Easter. We also celebrate Easter. Thank you for asking. It was, lovely. I ate too much candy, so did the dog, by the way, the dog had gotten into Easter [00:01:00] baskets before the children even found them. So. A little bit of anxiety because you know, dogs are not supposed to eat chocolate.
[00:01:07] she’s fine. So no worries there. But yesterday is we talked a little bit about last week was running of the Boston marathon and I had several friends running at no point in time was I inspired to run because we lived right before what they call. Heartbreak hill, which anybody who has probably ever run any marathon has heard of Boston’s heartbreak hill.
[00:01:28] And so you could just see, this is like the point in the marathon, Gerard worried about mile. I think we’re right after mile 20, where you can see people like making like the calculus going on in their brain. Like, am I just gonna stop now and throw in the towel or am I going to persist? So it was quite a display of.
[00:01:47] think a marathon for me watching I’ve run half marathons in my life, but never marathons watching people persist through that kind of pain is just such a display [00:02:00] of mental toughness. You know, it really shows you the human capacity to overcome pain. When you see people about to ascend heartbreak hill at mile 20 of a marathon.
[00:02:11] So yeah, to me, that’s always just, and thankfully. It was a beautiful day for it. Probably a little too hot actually for the runners. It was in the mid fifties. I think for me, that’s too hot.
[00:02:23] GR: Just brutal. Yeah.
[00:02:25] Cara: Well, I like to run in the thirties, but you know, yeah, of
[00:02:28] GR: course, of
[00:02:29] Cara: course , it’s the best kind of running and I bet you people will, will agree with me, listeners, send us an email for your career or get us on Twitter, but anyway, beautiful day.
[00:02:37] and really. Such a wonderful event for not just the city of Boston, but the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, especially those communities that are along the route. it’s a feeling unlike any other.
[00:02:48] GR: And let me give a shout out to UVA. President Jim Ryan who ran his 11th straight Boston marathon.
[00:02:55] And this time he’s doing it for veterans as many of our listeners know he’s the former. Dean of the [00:03:00] Harvard graduate school of education, but he is an avid runner and he is doing it for a good call. So I want to make sure as someone who works UVA, wanna give him a president of the shout-out impressive.
[00:03:10] Cara: Jared, have you ever thought about, have you ever run a marathon or thought about running.
[00:03:14] GR: No. What I do is watch it on TV or when friends of mine decided to do so, I’m like I cheer on I’ll donate money to their calls, but I am not a runner unless chased or chasing someone. Cause I need something. But other than that, no running legs here.
[00:03:31] Cara: Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s something I’ve thought about it. I think I might’ve mentioned last time I ran a half marathon, seven months pregnant. Yeah. Cause that’s a good idea. Especially when, especially, you know what it was, it’s my competitive spirit. My husband was going to do it. And of course at the time when we signed up for the marathon, I don’t even know if I knew I was pregnant yet.
[00:03:52] but once, I discovered that he was going to do it, I was like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I’m going to do this and I’m going to beat you,[00:04:00]
[00:04:01] but I would never do it again. I finished that half marathon and I thought to myself that is an activity I will never engage in again, as long as I live. So. It’s stupid because I hadn’t trained. Anyhow. We’ve got quite a show ahead of us as always. I’m just curious to know what you’re going to be ranting about this.
[00:04:21] GR: So my rant is about my home state, where I grew up California. And this is from Cal matters. Joe Hong is the author and it says California public school enrollment drops below 6 million mark. So for the first time, since the start of this century, California has fewer than 6 million students attending public schools.
[00:04:44] And this isn’t only a drop in public schools, writ large. Charter schools also saw a decline for the first time since 2014. Now when the department of education began to desegregate data, they identify a few points. So for [00:05:00] example, kindergarten enrollment is up, but nowhere near the pre pandemic level this year, now the schools are open kindergarten enrollment was up by more than 7,000 students recovering slightly from the loss last year.
[00:05:14] 60,000 students. Now on the private school side, there are more than 9,000 students. Who’ve enrolled in private school, roughly a 1.7% increase, but that doesn’t explain the major exit is from public schools. So the author makes a couple of good points. We said these, hold on to number one. He reminds us that enrollment in California was on a steady decline for more than a decade, even before the pandemic.
[00:05:42] And what reason did he name? He said mostly due to the lack of affordable housing. And so. People began to move and change. Well, this brings me to the point to the president of the California charter schools association, Myrna casserole. She said [00:06:00] this to the client also illustrates how charter schools are facing the same statewide challenges as our non-public charter school or non-charter friends.
[00:06:09] And she’s called for equitable funding. And so through the article goes down for how many first graders were here. But here’s one thing, even though the numbers for kindergarten went up enrollment numbers for first graders drop 18,000 students this year. And it raises questions because they said, wait a minute, we had a nice enrollment last year.
[00:06:33] So students who qualify for kindergarten, who now qualify for first grade. Thousands of them are not coming back. And when the California department of education was asked for a comment it said it wouldn’t comment on where those students went and some school districts are trying to find an answer.
[00:06:49] So at the state level, the governor said, well, I tell you what in California funding is driven in part by enrollment and attendance. So governor Newsome said, [00:07:00] what he wants to do is to allow districts to use a three year average attendance rate to calculate next year’s funding. The reason for looking at three years, it would bring you pre pandemic pre dropping numbers.
[00:07:13] And it will look at attendance versus enrollment because for holster reasons, as the authors identify, we’ve lost a lot of students and department of ed. Cannot necessarily identify who, what, where, when or why. There are also some privacy reasons to consider. There’s also a state Senator who introduced him to bill eight 30 to help with funding.
[00:07:35] So I will buy that affordable housing is one factor. do I, there is a drop in the number of students in California, but I decided to even do a deeper dive. And so it took a little. Article in the Los Angeles times from December 18th, 2021. And in that article, the author says the California population.
[00:07:57] Yes. Continues the client and [00:08:00] is putting in perspective. well, the drop below 6 million, isn’t just a drop for students. Many of those students are in homes or communities where there’s also a drop. So California itself has a decline. Why? Well, one driven by lower immigration to fewer deaths, well, fewer births and some pandemic deaths.
[00:08:21] And so I said, wow. So yeah, decline in students. Affordable housing. Got it. There’s also a drop in the population, at least according to one author, Lord immigration got, if you were birthed comma, pandemic deaths. And I said, well, that’s going to have an impact on the state as well. Well, what people may not know is that for the first time, in the 171 year history of California, since this data has come out and identify that not only the California.
[00:08:49] Have a drop in population as a result, it actually lost a congressional seat moving from 53 house districts to 52. Now that may not mean much to people outside of [00:09:00] California, but it matters a lot to people in California. Why? Well, one fewer state Merck in the house means one fewer vote in the electoral college, which helps decide who’s going to be president.
[00:09:12] There’s going to be less than 1.5 trillion in federal money distributed to the state each year. So I said, but there’s gotta be something other than that, or in addition to, but most of the answers that I’ve read so far have a lot to do with what’s taking place in. And then I’m sad to read an article by one of my colleagues at the American enterprise Institute Mark Perry, and he’s written for years about why people decide to leave states.
[00:09:42] And what he decided to do is to look at the number of view halls that leave one state and go to another. And so what he’s identified is that between 2010 and 2019, that The top 10, mostly blue states lost 845,000 [00:10:00] citizens. While the top 10, most red states actually gained a million. And so I did a deeper dive.
[00:10:06] I said, well, where are the states? So in 2021, the top 10 inbound states are Florida followed by Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Idaho, Utah, Nevada. And. Some of our listeners, won’t like this California, a, the number one outbound state followed by New York, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Louisiana, Maryland uh, Y and Minnesota, as well as Michigan, your former home state.
[00:10:36] So I put into perspective, California, student enrollment. By 6% is influenced by a lot of factors. Affordable housing is one, immigration is another, so our pandemic deaths as well as birth rates, but let’s also put in mind that people are leaving the state and going to states that have lower taxes and have had a [00:11:00] higher, in fact, a lore, unemployment rate.
[00:11:02] States that are providing tax breaks for businesses. So when I look at the numbers, it’s an education discussion, but it’s a broader discussion about demographics taxes and public policy. I’m
[00:11:16] Cara: very good. Blue states are getting nervous when they hear you say that, especially talking about declining census data and losing representatives.
[00:11:25] And but I think we know it’s true. And we know that a lot of these states where you’ve named where folks are going have been working hard to get folks to there. And we can talk about, I think you’re right. It starts with an education conversation, but it’s different than that because some of those states.
[00:11:38] I also have a lot of work to do on their education systems. But I want to go back Gerard and ask you a question about governor Newsome’s fix here because now granted, we are coming out of a pandemic enrollment seems unstable bloody bloody blah, but sounds like you’ve got some pretty good numbers that this is a pre pandemic problem, right?
[00:11:57] Enrollment’s been going down for a long time for many of the [00:12:00] reasons that you named. So. In your mind is the right answer to say, well, let’s just pack things for awhile and make this. I mean, I, do listen. I do, to some extent, get the argument. wish that we didn’t have to make it because I wish our school districts were more efficient and less lumbering than they are because they are these lumbering bureaucracies that don’t seem to be able to adjust really well when suddenly they don’t have as many kids in the schools they thought they did, but to take an approach that sort of past.
[00:12:28] Funding for kids who weren’t there over a longer period of time. I wonder about the extent to which that really solves the problem, which is school districts need to adjust. They need to be nimble California, unless it’s suddenly housing stock, becomes much more affordable unless a range of other things happen.
[00:12:46] He’s probably not going to recover its population in the near term. And so what does that mean for. Spending money on things like propping up empty facilities. We have this problem here in Boston that money is not necessarily going to kids and going [00:13:00] to their education. So I’m curious as to what you think of that.
[00:13:04] GR: I accept his proposal as a stop gap measure to try to hold harmless schools for one to two years. So for that, I’m fine with the green length. I also know that California’s got billions of dollars and cares money that’s going to the state for some students, in fact who may not be there now. And so I don’t want money to be a reason why the state can’t move forward to try to fix this.
[00:13:30] So in this. Um, A green light on it. You’re a
[00:13:33] Cara: green light on it. Okay. Yeah. think that it’s hard not to be in the short term. My question is, will they change things in the term? You know, we know that yeah. Now these states could be using this opportunity to say, Hey, here’s an idea. Let’s turn towards a model of student centered funding.
[00:13:52] It doesn’t seem to be. The table.
[00:13:56] GR: Yeah, no, that’s actually a good point. No, they, won’t change because [00:14:00] there are no legislative incentives to do so, uh, California funding model is really different than most states because there’s also a community college dynamic as well. So no, they won’t go to a we call it backpack model of the money following the stigma.
[00:14:14] They won’t do that. The question will be two years from now. Are you going to continue to keep attendance and enrollment when you get to year three? And you’re saying attendance and not enrollment are now we have a problem because you have go students and that students were actually there. So I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt for two years, but I don’t expect a major push, but in the article, superintendents were saying we’re having to compete with each other for students and you’re competing.
[00:14:44] Like private schools and like charter schools and like cities you’re competing for talent. So it is a interesting story. But this is a story about California dreaming in reverse,
[00:14:57] Cara: and dear they insert [00:15:00] competition into education. It’s not bad. Well, you know, you mentioned this also, I mean, my ears perk up , like you said, California’s got a bunch of money and a bunch of cares funding.
[00:15:12] And with kids leaving, they should have extra to spend on the kids. Yes. Maybe, I don’t know, my, article, it’s a question is will they spend it on things that will ultimately benefit kids? I’ve got this really interesting piece. It’s from the Brookings Institute blog, the brown center chalkboard by Kenneth shores and Matthew Steinberg.
[00:15:30] And they’re blogging about a research paper they just did. And I just it’s really cool. I mean, I think that, you know, Three really broad questions, which I sort of love. And they’re looking at main question they asked is, has federal crisis spending served its intended objectives. That’s the title of the blog.
[00:15:51] And the big question they’re trying to ask, and then they’ve got three sub-questions here. So they’re looking at American recovery and reinvestment funds. Remember. [00:16:00] Remember that. Yeah, the American recovery and reinvestment act after the great recession. And they’re also looking of course at Esser funds.
[00:16:08] So as a reminder, a R R a funds were about 50 billion and the whole purpose was to give money to the state. So they could simply like get school budgets up to pre-recession levels. And then of course, as our funds, we’re talking $190 billion Gerard. And so they wanted to look. Three things specifically, the first was where the funds allotted sufficient to basically meet the policy goal, which in this case is to offset learning loss where the funds allocated to the districts with most need.
[00:16:40] And were they used in a way that would help districts meet the purported policy goals. So again, to recover learning loss, so on all counts. And this is a really interesting example of us. I mean, why are we were asking this question about a R a now and there were very few studies, there were couple done at the time to see like, [00:17:00] okay, so what difference did it make, if any, and it’s not to say that it didn’t make some difference.
[00:17:04] It did. I certainly have memories of entering schools to do research studies after they had received ARR funds and Nam. There were a lot of nice looking Smartboards hanging in those schools that nobody knew. But, there were some definite good infrastructure changes that happened. And I think, but these authors conclude that if you really look at.
[00:17:23] these questions, were the funds sufficient to offset learning loss where they allocated to districts most in me, by and large, the answer is no. So surprise, surprise, right? Under a R a, it seemed to work a bit in the beginning, but really at the end of the day, they said the funds weren’t enough to get the districts that needed it most back up to pre-recession spending levels.
[00:17:44] Now we know we’ve had lots of people on the show that does tell you spending isn’t everything, budgets, aren’t everything, but. In the context of a budget, taking a sudden and big hit. I remember being on the board of a charter school at this time and us realizing like, wow, halfway through the year, luckily this all states, [00:18:00] all schools were experiencing this and, and state had to help make up for it, but we really taking it.
[00:18:04] It was a big budget impact and he had tough decisions to make them very short notice. And so there really weren’t enough funds under a R a this is fascinating to me under. What the authors conclude is that actually well, first of all, if the policy goal is to offset learning loss, we don’t know the extent of learning loss still.
[00:18:26] We’re still trying to figure it out. And we don’t know the extent of learning loss, where one thing that we do know is that as extra funds were being allocated states, actually weren’t taking as big of a budgetary hit. As we’d predicted they would in the beginning from COVID right. Budgets actually turned out to be pretty.
[00:18:47] Okay. But under if you look at the most dramatic predictions, , around learning loss, you would still come up a little bit short in terms of are the funds allocated enough to actually address learning loss. So let’s [00:19:00] put that in the bucket of, we will see the other really interesting question around.
[00:19:05] We’re the funds getting to where they needed to be. That is the districts that were hurt as tit the districts with the students that were already suffering the greatest, gaps in learning. And in there, the story again is very interesting because under a R R a it wasn’t so much targeted.
[00:19:21] At we’re going to target low income districts because states were already doing that. They sort of handed the money over to states and then states follow their own formulas. And a lot of states were already giving more funding to lower income districts, but under Sr, remember, we distributed those funds using title one model.
[00:19:38] So theoretically the districts who needed the most should have gotten the most and by and large, that did happen. But here’s the thing. Learning loss. We were in this unprecedented. Everybody stays at home and learns online and loses learning pandemic. So what it turns out to be is that if you run the models, it’s the district.
[00:19:55] That receives the least amount of money. Those that were more well lost, they arguably still [00:20:00] suffered the same, for example, like years of learning loss as other kids. So it’s a real question as to whether these funds realized their stated goal, right. Or the government’s stated goal, but here’s the final one.
[00:20:13] And this is. The kicker, the final question was, were the funds actually, were they working to meet their purported goal? And here’s a little quote from the article around what we learned about a R a from several studies at the time. And that was at the end of the day, to understand whether or not these funds were actually impacting learning loss that we needed greater transparency, greater accountability.
[00:20:41] And more data. Now, if you look at what we’re struggling with now, I don’t know if you’ve read some of these district plans on how escrow funds are being sent Gerard, but I have, and nine times out of 10, they tell you absolutely nothing. This is I’m reading this article also on the same day. Us ed has announced that they’re going to be having a [00:21:00] summit profiling, how districts are spending their funds.
[00:21:02] I’m sure some of them are spending them well, but at the end of the day, we really don’t know how those funds are being spent. They had certain parameters, but you could probably drive a truck through most of those parameters. So I think that my prediction Gerard is going to be that 10 years from now. If you and I are still talking about this.
[00:21:21] We are going to find out that the studies conclude we need greater transparency, greater accountability, and better quality data to figure out whether or not this, how much did I say at the beginning? Oh, I’m sorry. $190 billion in SRP. Actually did anything just I’m learning loss. So that’s my story. I highly recommend this study and this blog to our listeners, because it’s an interesting one.
[00:21:49] And I don’t think we should forget that these districts are going to be spending extra funds for at least the next few years, Gerard. And they’ve got a long way to go and doing it the right way.
[00:21:58] GR: So much of what you [00:22:00] said. I’m going to say ditto, ditto, ditto. It’s a shame. And they actually look 10 years in the future and have a conclusion that’s going to be 80% in the ballpark.
[00:22:09] 10% of be totally off or the additional 10% of the worse in terms of the prediction. But you know what, when we look back through different presidents administration is, and we see the different theme-based investment to make work. You’re going to come back to. Yep. He didn’t work well, it didn’t do this, Yeah. I just leave it at that because it’s just, this is not a hard thing to do. You can actually follow the money. When we look at charter school malfeasance, we know every dime. We know every corner that was cut when a school that has a voucher school or a school receiving private school funds. When it’s time to close the newspaper, we’ll run an export.
[00:22:52] Telling you, how much the principal made the car? He or she drove using public funds. The amount of money that was used as kickbacks to vendors. , they’ll [00:23:00] lock the length. And when we come to traditional public schools, where’s the money going? We’re not always sure, but we as taxpayers, let this.
[00:23:09] Cara: We do, we absolutely do.
[00:23:11] And let our districts off the hooks and they educate the majority of our kids. So we should not be doing that Gerard. And also like, can we maybe just start talking about accountability on the front end? I don’t know. That’s what we do when we design policy for the most part at the state level.
[00:23:25] Let’s maybe ask ourselves that question. Hopefully we don’t find ourselves in another pandemic right away. The next time we need to make a huge investment. If there’s another coming recession, let’s remember that 190 billion. And not create regulations that you could drive a truck through.
[00:23:39] GR: So, Ooh, it just reminded me.
[00:23:42] And in terms of accountability, we know that we have a school to prison pipeline. It seems that we’re more interested in holding students accountable while they’re incarcerated and making sure the institution, the department of correction, or the department of juvenile justice to make sure they do all the things right accountable to keep the public’s money.
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Great. At where, when they’re in the free world, you don’t seem to have that same level of transparency and oversight. Just my thoughts.
[00:24:06] Cara: It’s a fascinating observation. I think we need to do a whole show about that at some point. All right. But you’re right. We’ve got to bring in our fabulous guests because in just a moment, listeners, we are going to be speaking with Dr.
[00:24:16] Robert Alter and he is the Ameritas professor of Hebrew and comparative literature at the university of California, Berkeley. So we’ll be back in just a minute.[00:25:00]
[00:25:29] Welcome back learning curve listeners. We are here with Dr. Robert Alter. He is the class of 1937 emeritus professor of Hebrew and comparative literature. So university of California, Berkeley, he started his career as a writer at commentary magazine, where he was for many years, a contributing editor.
[00:25:47] Professor Alter has written 28 books, including the art of biblical narrative, the art of biblical poetry, the five books of Moses, a translation with commentary, the book of Psalms, a translation with commentary [00:26:00] ancient Israel, the former. Joshua judges, Samuel and Kings a translation with commentary. And most recently he completed the three volume book, the Hebrew Bible, a translation with commentary of which the New York times wrote alters achievement is monumental marked by literary grace and intelligent commentary.
[00:26:20] In 2009, he received the Robert Kirsch award from the Los Angeles times for lifetime contribution to American. Here in his bachelor’s degree in English, from Columbia university and his master’s degree and doctorate from Harvard university and comparative literature, as well as being awarded honorary degrees by Yale university and Hebrew university, professor Robert alter.
[00:26:41] Welcome to the learning curve.
[00:26:43] Robert Alter: I’m glad to be here.
[00:26:45] Cara: Well, we’re glad to have you. And I’d like to start by asking you about your landmark book that I just mentioned the Hebrew Bible, a translation with commentary. It turns wise praised and it’s perhaps someone say the best translation now available in print.
[00:26:59] Could you [00:27:00] share with our listeners why the Hebrew Bible is probably. Influential book. Some would say that humans have ever produced and talk about, especially for teachers and students in the 21st century. I know it’s probably hard to wrap that into one little nugget, but what would you think they should draw from its knowledge and.
[00:27:18] GR: Well,
[00:27:19] Robert Alter: the obvious explanation, why the Bible has been that influential is that both Tues and Christians conceived it over the ages to be. Divinely inspired. So it was the guidebook to living the good life and blueprint for theology or generated many different theologies on the part of different things.
[00:27:46] But to me, what is interesting is that the Bible, especially I’ll focus on the Hebrew Bible which I think is different in kind in many respects for the new Testament. It [00:28:00] seems to me that the Bible transcends it’s strictly religious theological or doctrinal function. Because it is a very rich, it is in some ways, interestingly, contradictory representation of the.
[00:28:21] People struggling with their deaths in these, with the tangle of family relationships, with politics and what that does to a human being and so on and so forth. So that that’s one reason why not the only reason. So many readers who are not believers have felt that these books speak to them that they tell them something about the human condition that they provide a certain illuminating perspective on their own [00:29:00] lives.
[00:29:00] Cara: I want to pick up on that because You said that even for non-believers, it can provide an illuminating perspective on one’s own life. I mean, especially today, even, I don’t know if this is a product of me getting older, or if it’s quite real, you know, children, my own children, I look at them and I think, wow, they’re living in a time of, feels like heightened conflict.
[00:29:21] Heightened because they’re so close. Yeah. Having this understanding of it because they have such at their fingertips, the ability to, they don’t have to go far to get a Facebook feed or an Instagram notice or whatever it is that how kids get their news today. And so there’s a real need to understand how to resolve conflict, how to be a resilient, human being and survive in the face of these great challenges.
[00:29:47] Can you maybe point to. A specific story or a specific way in which an understanding of the Bible as a record of these things can help anyone confront [00:30:00] conflict or become more resilient in life.
[00:30:02] Robert Alter: Okay. First, all as your question implies, conflict is all over the place. And the Hebrew Bible because last conflict is all over the place in our history in general and all the more so at this particular moment in time.
[00:30:22] So I would Particularly focus on what seems to me, one of the greatest narratives to be produced anywhere in the ancient world. And that’s the story of David now? Okay. You think of the medieval representations of David and Christian iconography. He has a halo around his head and he’s playing a harp.
[00:30:49] And in Jewish tradition, he’s studying the Tom motor, which of course has not been composed when he was alive. But in fact, he’s much [00:31:00] more complicated and interesting and Merck. Then all those pies representation David starts off as a charismatic young man. He’s beautiful. Everybody falls in love with them.
[00:31:16] He gets into the court, but he’s been clandestinely anointed. To become the king after Saul. And that gets into the story in a whole complicated network of political machinations. Seoul eventually becomes fixated on David and a. Paranoid way, dividends, plea, and on and off. And then once David does become.
[00:31:47] King the story of conflict is not over. his forces and up in a civil war with the 10 Northern tribes [00:32:00] and once that’s resolved he has plenty of problems with his. military commander Joe out who seems to be the power behind the throne and in many ways, manipulate David And then his own son, Absalom, rebels against them. And you serve the throne. have a figure in some ways to kind of tragic figure, because the conflict between his screen, your private person, a man who loves his father the king are irreconcilable. And yet there is the kind of. Persistence in greatness and David for all his flaws.
[00:32:43] The worst of which is murdering Uriah after David has had an adulterous relationship with you, arise life, despite all that, there is something. And [00:33:00] during and noble and heartening about him. So although I hesitate to call anything, a lesson from the Bible, you can see how reading that story.
[00:33:13] you get a sense of how are you in. with all his mistakes and all his terrible conflict can persist in history and do something with his life.
[00:33:26] GR: You spent a great deal of time talking about human conflict and that’s definitely something that’s a part of what we read. I want to talk with you about the book of Exodus.
[00:33:36] Now there’s several major leaders of the American civil rights movement. Most notably Dr. King who’s heavily influenced by and drew inspiration from the book of Exodus. Be it as themes deliberation or Moses’s leadership. What did you say to our teachers and students? Really of all faiths and political viewpoints, what can they learn from the Exodus story to better understand human cohesive?
[00:33:59] Robert Alter: [00:34:00] To begin with, there has been your listeners should be aware of a whole movement in Latin America called liberation theology, which is largely based, or at least takes this point of departure from the. Michael, what the intellectual history in
[00:34:24] advanced studies years ago wrote a book called exit this and liberation, which follows this trajectory. So I would say Peculiar about the exit, his story that is this a story of national origin, but most people’s trace their origins to some glorious triumph in the past, like think of a virtual India and the, way the founding of the Roman people.
[00:34:56] Based on or can be traced [00:35:00] back to a knee is fleeing from conquered Troy, but, in acting a grand military triumph in the Italian peninsula, by contrast the Exodus story low, it’s the origins of the people in slavery. Which is almost a shocking idea. but it’s also parroting idea that is a people who has been added to.
[00:35:29] No freedom who is been worked like dogs. And in fact is then doom by a genocidal to create affecting all the Hebrew males coming from the Pharaoh. This people. Manages with the leadership of Moses recourse to extricate itself from the house of bondage and to become a great people. So it’s moving story.
[00:35:59] [00:36:00] And as I said, different from most stories of national.
[00:36:04] GR: Well to take that a story, just another step right now, Jews all over the world is celebrating Passover, which marks the Exodus of the Israelites from slavery to Egypt. Your translation of the Hebrew Bible, as we’ve said earlier, is considered a definitive.
[00:36:20] Could you talk about what educators and young people should know about the biblical narrative around this holiday?
[00:36:27] Robert Alter: I think what they should know is pretty much what I’ve just said, look, the history of the Jews after the Bible is, well, first of all, the history of the Israelites in the Bible A series of defeats.
[00:36:44] It’s little sliver, a country sandwiched in between great empires to the east and the south that the Assyrians conquer the Northern Israelite kingdom and obliterate. [00:37:00] Eventually the Babylonians conquered that Southern kingdom, then it becomes a kind of province of the person empire. So there is defeat after defeat.
[00:37:11] And then in the post-surgical period, of course, as a diaspora people, Jews were repeatedly subject to Persecution for grumpy wide-scale massacres that wasn’t all the two shifts. It was certainly an important part. And yet every year, To sit around table and they celebrate freedom. They celebrate the fact that we have come out of the house of bondage and now we are free people.
[00:37:46] So is kind of inspiring story. And certainly that’s one of the reasons why it has grabbed all kinds of Jews year after year, every April, when Passover comes here.[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] GR: Absolutely. part of any celebration is often sacred songs are sacred poems and your book, the art of biblical poetry, you’ve written about the power of poetry.
[00:38:12] Could you talk about the influence of songs and what we can learn from it regarding the ability of words and language to inspire?
[00:38:20] Robert Alter: Okay. Now it is sometimes said, but I think it’s not persuasive that the Psalms or the origin of lyric poetry the west, but what they are and the way that I think they have spoken to readers, both pious and secular is.
[00:38:43] There is a powerful, poetic expression of anguish and desperation. There are many of the Psalms where speaker in the poem seems on the point of death. And yet at the end is [00:39:00] rescued by. which is again, the agreement’s story with a happy ending. then there are a great variety in the book of Shawn.
[00:39:10] There are exuberant celebrations of the glories of creation and as Close as any biblical poetry comes to nature, poetry, even something like nature, poetry. So all this can speak to a very wide spectrum of readers and you don’t necessarily have to be a believer to be moved by all that.
[00:39:37] GR: Absolutely. Well, speaking of moving people with words, we’d like for you to provide us. A passage of your choosing to read from one of your many books.
[00:39:49] Robert Alter: what I’d like to read is the first chapter’s not very long, it’s 16 verses of the song of songs, which I think. [00:40:00] It’s one of most remarkable collections of love poetry in all of Western literature.
[00:40:08] And one of the things that makes it so beautiful is that there’s a kind of lush sensuality, but a cast in a kind of refined, delicate poetry. And then that combination is very unusual. So I tried it, my translation, which we’ll be hearing in a moment to get something of that to keep the language come pack the way the Hebrew is to use simple.
[00:40:40] Eloquent words and to get some of the rhythm of the Hebrew. So here’s chapter one, the song of saw the first speaker is the woman and that she is answered by the young man. So this is a lot of dialogue. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth[00:41:00] for your loving is. Then Y for fragrance, your oils are goodly.
[00:41:07] Poured oil is your name. And so the young women love you too. Are, may ask you, let us run the. Has brought me to his chamber. Let us be glad and rejoice in you. Let us extol your loving beyond what rightly do they love you? And then the new poem, young woman is speaking. I am dark, but desirable a daughter says Jerusalem, like the tents of kid like Solomon’s curtain do not look on me for being.
[00:41:42] For the sun has glared on me. My mother’s sons were incense with me. They made me the keeper, the vineyards, my own vineyard. I have not kept tell me whom I love. So where are you pass to your flock at noon? Thus, I [00:42:00] go straying after the flop through your companion and he answered. If you do not know, Ferris of women go out in the tracks of the sheep and graze your goats by the shepherds shelters.
[00:42:15] And then he speaks again to my mayor about Pharaoh’s chariots. I like you, my friends, your cheeks are lovely with loop earrings. Your neck would be earrings and gold. We will make for you with silver fillings. And then she speaks while the king was on his couch. My Nard gave off and sent a Sachit of mirror is my lover to me all night between my breasts, a cluster of henna, my lover to me in the venues of.
[00:42:56] , . And then he speaks, this is the end of the chapter. Oh, [00:43:00] you were fair by friend. Oh, you are fair. Your eyes are dumped. And she says, oh, you are fair. My love for you. We’re asleep. Our bed is burdened to our house. Beams are seeded our rafters evergreen.
[00:43:19] Cara: Well, Dr. Robert alter, thank you so much. That was quite beautiful. thank you for spending this time with us today and for your wide and remarkable body of work.
[00:43:29] Robert Alter: . Thank you for hosting me. It was the place.[00:44:00]
[00:44:03] GR: And my tweet of the week comes from education. Next April 17th, 2020 to what states require in their educational standards is long lasting effects on individual attitudes and occupational choices. And the next part says the costs of canceling. Definitely worth the read.
[00:44:24] Cara: Ooh, education next, always with a good headline and love it, Gerard.
[00:44:28] I’m going to go, you know, for a run. Say if I’m going to go look at the empty thought, enjoy, enjoy this beautiful day here, but we will be back again together. Next week, we will be here with professor Wilfred Schmid and he is the Dwight Parker, Robinson emeritus professor of mathematics at Harvard.
[00:44:47] He played a major role in drafting, the 2000 Massachusetts mathematics curriculum frameworks, and has served on the U S national mathematics advisory panel. Maybe he can tell me what happened to my math [00:45:00] education, because it wasn’t pretty anyway until then Gerard have a wonderful week. It’s always lovely to share this time with you.
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Zoning Reform Revisited: Local Control Determines How, Not If, Housing Gets Built
/in Economic Opportunity, Featured, Housing, Podcast Hubwonk /by Editorial StaffHubwonk host Joe Selvaggi talks with Pioneer research associate Andrew Mikula about the need for affordable housing near the mass transit network and the requirements and local design opportunities of the 3A zoning reform law. Read Pioneer Institute’s recent public comment on this topic.
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Joe Selvaggi:
This is Hubwonk. I’m Joe Selvaggi.
Joe Selvaggi:
Welcome to Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. Greater Boston has among the highest housing costs in the nation. Driving many low and middle income people to live farther from its thriving job market and its mass transit network. This crisis of affordability is primarily driven by restrictive local zoning laws that discourage new, more dense and less expensive townhouses and condominiums. Massachusetts has attempted to encourage affordable housing in the past with laws like 40B, which offered developers the ability to override local zoning in towns with little or no affordable units. But in the 53 years since 40B’s passage, the law has not had the effect of allowing housing supply to keep pace with housing demand, to further address this issue. A new zoning reform law that took effect in 2021 now requires communities near MBTA stops to each zone for at least 750 multifamily units by right. Designed to overcome the weaknesses of the earlier 40B legislation, the law and the guidelines were crafted in a way that encourages local design while also ensuring the units will be affordable for working families eager to be near the transit network.
Joe Selvaggi:
This zoning act referred to as 3A continues to evolve with lawmakers soliciting input from the 175 affected communities as the best ways to blend the need for more housing, with respect for each town’s design preferences. Is 3A the right law to help address the affordable housing prices in Massachusetts, or will it prove to be insufficient to compel communities to develop viable plans for new homes? My guest today is Pioneer Institute’s research associate and candidate for a master’s degree in public planning at Harvard, Andrew Mikula. Andrew recently wrote a public comment for Pioneer on the 3A compliance guidelines in which he outlined his view on the merits of the law and where the law may need improvement to achieve its goals. When I return, I’ll be joined by Pioneer Institute’s Andrew Mikula. Okay. We’re back. This is Hubwonk, I’m Joe Selvaggi, and I’m pleased to welcome back to the show fellow Pioneer Institute contributor, and now candidate for a master’s degree in public planning at Harvard, Andrew Mikula. Good to have you on the show, Andrew.
Andrew Mikula:
Joe, always great to be a back on Hubwonk. Thank you.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, I enjoyed reading your public comment on the compliance guidelines for the new 3A zoning reform, maybe a dry topic for our listeners, but I hope we can make it exciting and get into some of the details. As our Hubwonk listeners know, zoning does touch many of the issues we cover on the podcast that includes the high cost of housing the benefit of mass transitfor commuters and the environment and the encouragement of our Massachusetts economy. We all want to have a good place to live that helps everyone. So let’s start off with the the case for zoning reform. Why do we need to have this thing called zoning reform in the state?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah I believe it was urban economist Ed Glaeser, who observed that reforming local land use controls is one of those rare areas in which the libertarian and the progressive agree obviously that doesn’t extend to every individual with those persuasions. But I think that it’s the kind of union of kind of advancing property rights. And also when you restrict the supply of housing, you know, wealthier people tend to bid up the price of existing units that otherwise might have remained more affordable. And so this has huge implications for who can access jobs and amenities in a given area because when you restrict the supply of housing in an area, the people who would have lived in those new units don’t just go away. They’re forced to move elsewhere, further outside of, or away from major job centers.
Andrew Mikula:
And often to communities that have, you know worse schools or higher crime, et cetera, than places with the most stringent zoning laws. So it’s really the intersection of economic opportunity property rights and also the environment because people living further away from job centers means, you know, you have to drive further to get anywhere and also communities where your push to when development isn’t allowed to kind of concentrate within the existing footprint of community. You know, that development tends to be kind of sprawling and away from transit and walkable villages.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, I’m glad you point that out. I’ll entertain my own little rant here. I’m passionate about zoning. And I think I have friends who push back both from my conservative friends on, on the one side and my progressive friends on the other I’ll remind the conservatives on the that are listening that, but we are proud of the fact that this is the land of opportunity. So we should all be working to, to enlarge the, the range of opportunity for our fellow Americans. And for those on the on the progressive side, I see many in the Le living in the leafy suburbs with those nifty on signs that say, you know, in this house, we believe they’re the same people who will have be at the, the zoning meetings and want to restrict what can be built in their community.
Joe Selvaggi:
And they, I think as you mentioned so well they don’t realize the consequence of, of limiting growth or, or building. I means only very, very affluent people can, can live in that community. And if I’ll, I’ll editorialize one little bit more in my view the, the most pernicious effects of poverty or low income is not lack of food or shelter or clothing. It’s rather the, the isolation that’s created in those communities where they have very few links to good education, good employment, or connections to those civic institutions, you know, those little platoons that, that connect us to greatest society that’ll service for the rest of our lives. So zoning reform is important to me from my perspective, because I wanna make sure that lower income Americans aren’t in a sense isolated from the society and the community and the employment world.
Joe Selvaggi:
So, so I’ll set to, you know, lay my cards on the table at the start of our conversation and, and dive in from there. So so let’s follow the, the history of zone owning reform. Back when I was at Kennedy school, we, we studied a lot about this 40 B. This was back in 1969. It was a, an aspiration to encourage communities to build more diverse housing supply. Give us a little history on how what that 40 B entailed and what have been the results of start with the positive effects in the last, I guess, 50 years now.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So chapter 40 B basically mandated that every community in Massachusetts have at least 10% of its housing stock in the states, subsidized housing inventory, or Shi to both increase the stock of affordable housing overall and avoid concentrating it in areas that were deprived of economic opportunity before. And like you said, allowing kind of access to high opportunity areas for, for people of lesser means. And if you don’t comply with chapter 40 B developers can essentially ignore certain aspects of your town zoning laws. And the state can overturn any denial of a project whose residential component has at least 20 to 25% affordable units. So chapter 40 B success has been in creating more 60,000 units of housing that likely otherwise wouldn’t have been built over the last 50 plus years. And many of those, those units are, you know, permanently affordable deed, restricted, et cetera.
Joe Selvaggi:
So that sounds like it, you know, 60,000 sounds like a lot, although it’s 50 years or 55 years, that’s yeah. De of the math, not, not that many. How is its worthy aspirations fallen short have, have all the communities in, in Massachusetts Leafly complied with its directions.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think you’re you’re setting up the answer there quite intentionally. So the reality is more than three quarters of communities in Massachusetts still don’t comply with 40 B. A lot of them have taken the risk over the years, that if they don’t take steps to meet this, the affordable housing goal set by the state, then developers simply wouldn’t propose any projects under chapter 40 B that would allow them to skirt the town zoning laws. And the last decade or so was really a tipping point in a lot of Boston suburbs in that they started seeing these proposals come through because the market was really hot. The, the rents started to adjust toy, including these affordable units and the state was more desperate than ever to make a dent in this housing crisis, but at the same time, this sort of coercive tactic because of non-compliance with 40 B has in a lot of ways, deepened the hostility between real estate developers and, and some suburban communities. So, so I guess that’s the negative aspect of chapter 40 B.
Joe Selvaggi:
So the need has become greater. The resistance has become greater. So an unstoppable force means it’s the immovable object. So here we are back in 2021, then we passed something called section three, a we’ll call it section three, a, which was meant to learn from the, I guess, the shortcomings of 40 B and, and try to take another crack at it and, and sort of provide some kind of compromise between the needs of the community and the needs for more dense development. So let’s let’s start with three a what weaknesses in 48 did it address and how did it address it?
Andrew Mikula:
So big section three, a requires communities with access to the M BTA Boston’s public transit network to allocate at least 50 acres of land near an M BTA station to buy right multifamily housing development of a density of at least 15 acres, excuse me, 15 units per acre. So the law also requires that these new zoning districts accommodate families with children because oftentimes suburban communities only build dense housing that’s made for seniors because, you know, they don’t want to have to pay for kids to go to school. Right. so this section three a is an effort to tie service, provision buses and trains to connect these places to good jobs shops and recreation opportunities to the state’s ambitions to make sure everyone is able to obtain a suitable and affordable home in a tight market.
Joe Selvaggi:
I, I find that interesting. I don’t think that there’s, anything’s such thing in 40 B, but in three a the logic follow me if, if, if this is true or not, let me know. I think the logic is if you have a a tee stop and, and it does differentiate between a, a train light rail or a bus, but let’s just say, if you have access to mass transit therefore you have some public good, that is, you’ve been fortunate enough to have been built in your town for your benefit. And perhaps as, as a payback for such a wonderful resource I don’t know what the right word would be, but I’m gonna use payback. You ought to then become as you have this wonderful benefit in a sense payback by providing access or some set aside land 50 acres on which more dense housing can be built with the logic being, okay. The people who move in there can easily get to their jobs using mass transit fewer cars, it’s greener development. And you know, everybody wins the environment, the community and the people who go live there.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, you know, you’re absolutely right about the, the kind of the pact that the state is, is signing with these communities that if you kind of benefit from having a direct connection via mass transit to greater Boston, all the opportunities set of fors, you know, you need to kind of contribute to overcoming barriers to opportunities that are kind of the housing prices and, and, and lack of availability of appropriate homes for, for families. You know, that’s, that’s what the problem is that that’s kind of solving in a way this, this law is attempting to solve.
Joe Selvaggi:
And let’s be honest, if you have a, a teeth or brain stop in your town your house is more valuable by, by, by virtue of that fact, right? You you know, your commuters paradise, as they often say in the listing how many communities are identified in three a I know there’s 300, so communities in, in Massachusetts, how many are connected by, by mass transit?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So the state definition of MBTA communities they’re 175 almost half of all the municipalities in the state. And the state actually further differentiates these communities based on whether they have access to a subway or light rail station rapid transit, a commuter rail station that often travels further distances or only bus lines or are merely communities that are merely close to a tees stop, that’s located in another community. So there’s some differentiation in, in the bylaw, what the uniting kind of factor is. They either have a bus or a train station that ultimately connects them to Boston, or, you know, they benefit from the presence of a bus or train station in a nearby community.
Joe Selvaggi:
So it could be a train stop in your town or near a train stop in someone else’s town. But they have different categories. We’ll get a little bit into that later on. Of course now we’re talking about natural tension between communities have decided not to build more dense housing you either deliberately or less deliberately and and regional need for housing, which we all agree is, is, is almost at crisis levels here. So 40 B kind of went in this direction and a lot of people in a sense, ignored it. How does three a have a little more bite? How does it sort of square that circle communities don’t want it the region does want it, how do we sort of in a sense, appease or acknowledge and, and assuage the concerns of communities that something someone’s not gonna come in and build something they don’t like?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. So section three a is at an attempt, you know, pretty similar to 40 B in a way to make these towns and cities proactively anticipate denser development so that they can determine its location, design details and other specifications on their own terms. 50 acres of dense zoning sound like a lot, but really it’s less than 10% of the land within a half mile radius of a given tee stop. So it’s still providing some flexibility to local governments in the implementation stage, which I’d say is crucial for the political legitimacy of this process. Also, unlike chapter 40 B, it’s not every community in the state that has to comply with this. It’s only communities that directly benefit from the MBT services. But even if you’re, you know, one of those communities I think the, the kind of silver lining is you get a lot of say in exactly what this 50 acres of dense zoning is going to look like in your community.
Joe Selvaggi:
So I don’t wanna generalize, but I just say, I, I think with 40 B the dynamic was for those towns that didn’t have diverse housing stock it allowed a developer to override the local zoning in a sense, build a project and effectively force it on a community. And, and there, we had a pitch battle. Instead, this seems like a very, very different approach, which is you say to each of those 175 communities, you know, you tell us where you want the 50 acres to be, and you tell, and you give us design parameters that integrate well with your community, right? The project be developed and sold the community itself, defines what the project will look like. And, and then, you know, developers can either go after it or not do, is that a meaningful difference? Is, do I have that about right?
Andrew Mikula:
Yes. And I, and I, I think a big piece I haven’t necessarily touched upon so far is, you know, these multifamily zoning districts need to be allow for by right development. So, you know, in mandating by right development, the process gets a lot less discretionary for, you know, approvals at local level. You know, it’s still gonna require bureaucrats to interpret the law, but it should be more transparent about why a project is being approved or denied than it was before. And that both kind of affords a, a level of, of control at the local level in a way that wasn’t there before. Because it’s either, you know, a yes or a no, and there’s, there’s not much in between. And it could help potentially reduce corruption in the real estate development process, which has been in an issue in, in greater Boston for a long time,
Joe Selvaggi:
Explain that dynamic. So, okay. In the old world, the 40 B I wanna build the town doesn’t want this project. I appeal to the state and the state said, no, you gotta let this guy build. But then they drag me through the approval process because they you know, I have to jump through hoops naturally, the big developer who has deep pockets might grease the skids by <affirmative> for lack of a better term bribing those people who are approving the project. How does, I mean, we can see how the, those incentives would exist and we don’t want this to happen. How would three a prevent that kind of dynamic? I know it’s maybe a occur, but how, how do you, how would you prevent bribery in, in this kind of world?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I think, you know, by right development makes it less likely that corruption will occur because, you know, you really have to determine in advance what the criteria are for whether development’s allowed in a good even site and, and for a given project. So hypothetically it should all be in the, the codes, whether this is a given project is allowable, as opposed to having a kind of design review board or a review process among public officials that’s up for negotiation. And I think that, you know, our open meeting laws in Massachusetts go a long way towards increasing transparency around this regardless. But I think that there are certainly, or could be opportunities under something like chapter 40 B to kind of compromise the integrity of officials. And in the past, it’s also been controversial when cities and towns kind of require developers to do to perform kind of mitigations for the impacts of their project that aren’t necessarily directly related to the project. You know, I think paving adjacent streets or paying into the, kind of the city’s school fund is one thing. But if you are doing kind of offsite interventions and whatnot as a form of mitigation to the town that gets legally ambiguous,
Joe Selvaggi:
Right. That that’s the town’s shaking down the developer. So it goes both ways, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so, again, I don’t wanna put you find a point on it, but because three a the town, what the parameters of an acceptable building are, it hasn’t been black and white, the meetings are public. So provided the developer sticks to that plan. There should, there’s no really prerogative to, to shoot it down. You know, you, they have to come up with the reason why it violated the rules ahead of time. We set the rules, you follow the rules, the thing gets built. There’s no sort of back and forth no, no changing of the gold post as it were that, that, that seems to make sense. Now we’ve talked about many of the positive attributes of the three a and how it can encourage towns to have some latitude over what gets built, where it gets built you in your paper, in your comments, you did have some criticism of where it falls short. I think it, in particular you point out that there’s 50 acres and 15 units per acre in some towns you, you need some flexibility. You need to be able to say your goal is not square miles or square feet, but rather how many units get built. We, we, we’re not concerned about how big the project is, but how many people live there, same more about your concerns in that regard.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, so, you know, like I mentioned, it’s 15 units per acre is how dense each zone is required to be which is certainly less dense than most of the block sized, four to six story apartment buildings that have been built throughout the Boston region and recent year. And in my public comment, I can compare the density level mandated by three a, to a row of triple Deckers and Wooster with enough space between them, for each one to have a driveway. But to individual towns can certainly go higher than that. But right now higher than that 15, eight units per or acre. But right now they can’t go lower. And this is in my mind, an opportunity to have even more flexibility in the implementation stage. I think, you know, density is a, you know, in some regards a goal in and of itself in that it can require, or it can enable more compact walkable communities, but really it’s more of a byproduct of the proximity of amenities.
Andrew Mikula:
And so section three, a guidelines seem to focus more on the total amount of land area, devoted to multifamily housing around the transit amenities rather than the actual number of units that could be created in that zoning district. So I think it’s a matter of you know, the agency that’s responsible for, for crafting these guidelines, the, the department of housing and community development and massive two sets kind of getting its messaging right on this. And I’m interested in how they respond to my comments on their use of land area as an important compliance indicator, as opposed to what I think should be the ultimate goal increasing housing production and ultimately affordability.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you would advocate, you say, some town might say let’s we’ll, we’ll, we’ll cut it down to 25 acres, but we’ll make it twice as dense that you, you think there should be that kind of flexibility based on the needs of the town
Andrew Mikula:
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I could, I could certainly see a case at the town level for making that sort of arrangement, because if you think about a limited area of 50 acres, you know, why wouldn’t you want, you know, 25 of those acres to be reserved for open space or new civic uses or, or something like that. And I understand that that kind of the, a higher density level of 15 nos per acre might not feel right to every community, but I think at the, the very least it should be allowed in the bylaw. It shouldn’t be as prescriptive as it is from the state’s perspective on the, the total land area devoted to this that increasing housing production is a much more noble goal than having development spread out over a given amount of a life.
Joe Selvaggi:
I did a little, your, your paper sparked my curiosity about how dense my community is. I’m a back Bayer, it’s a 61 units per acre. So, and it’s not such a bad life here. So in, in <laugh> and reading your comments it seems like there’s a, a mandate for, you know, setting aside this land. Is there any specific requirement to actually build there, or is the assumption that, you know, if, if you set it aside, you create the parameters the market will take care of itself. Someone will show up and start building is there any mandate to, to actually build
Andrew Mikula:
Well, yeah, not really. The D H C D has focused on the regulatory aspects of development and rather than the kind of ultimate result. And like I said, I’m, I’m, I think there might be some room for a shift in the messaging down a line on this, but right now, I think the, the crucial thing the D H C D is addressing right now is the need for by right development that occurs with these zoning districts as opposed to making the process as kind of messy and, and discretionary as it has been in recent years when these communities have wrestled with the question of density. And so I think if you allow the, the state to kind of you know, focus on the regulatory aspects upfront then, and there’s enough, flexibility, enough kind of scope to the the zoning changes, then, you know, eventually if these developments are viable financially some of them will get built, maybe not all, but I, I think that part of zoning reform is accepting kind of uncertainty in how exactly this plays out. So,
Joe Selvaggi:
Oh, and that’s a great answer. So we didn’t go into detail, but I’d like to do that. Now, there are subtypes within these communities 175 communities, but I think there’s four subtypes and each has a different deadline for when it needs to be done. And I think in your paper, you mentioned, it’s, it’s sort of upside down the, those communities that are perhaps bigger and will have more of difficulty finding 50 acres or whatever their plan is. They’re first to comply. And those more rural communities have a little more time. You, you mentioned it’s probably the other way around you know, if you don’t have wide open space, you, you, you’ve got a lot of other competing interests. It’s gonna take you more time than it will for the more community, but say more about four different types and, and where those deadlines fall.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. At the end of the day, I think it’s, you know, one of the smaller kind of details in from my my public comments, but I did mention that MBTA communities located on subway and light rail lines, you know, mall than Brookline Quincy, et cetera, have to submit their plans for achieving compliance before more suburban or exurban community commuter rail towns do like Grotton Ashland Middleborough. So to me, this doesn’t make sense because it’s probably gonna be harder to determine where to put these zoning districts in already built up communities. Especially once you consider that a lot of those communities have diverse immigrant groups, significant student populations, et cetera, that might need some sort of special outreach efforts. So there are a lot of other aspects of the guide lines where drawing a distinction among the MBTA communities makes sense, but I don’t think the deadlines for submitting action plans is one of them
Joe Selvaggi:
Now listeners to this are, you know, again, if they’re for against it, I think there’s probably a divided audience. Some are saying is the last thing I want and others are saying, you know, this is a great idea. Is there anything, you know someone who isn’t pleased with the, the idea of three a, could they be immediately out there changing the zoning laws in their town to, in a sense, make it impossible for these zones to be created? Is, is there a sort of a defensive move that, that will thwart the best intentions of this legislation?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, that, that’s an important question. So the D H C D wants to monitor communities so that it can rescind a community’s compliant status if they change their multi-family transit oriented zoning districts. After the fact the problem is that’s a huge administrative burden on the D H C D to keep track of zoning changes in 175 towns and cities. So that’s one of the major enforcement related questions about section three, a that is yet to be answered. And ideally the towns and cities would have to report these zoning changes to the D H C D themselves. But for now it’s unclear exactly how that will be implemented and enforced.
Joe Selvaggi:
Well, that brings me to, again, we’re getting close to our, our, the end of our time together. Then we started the show by talking about 40B many, many communities just said, thanks, but no, thanks. Really what power does the state have to enforce 3A, you know, you, you’re, you’re dealing with a zoning requirement, but the community’s just saying, you know, thank you, we’re all set, you know, don’t bother us. What, what enforcement mechanism is there.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, I, I touched upon it earlier. But basically there’s a rigorous process for coming into compliance with section three, a that involves submitting action plans and later reporting facts about the zoning districts to the D H C, D, and the big kind of punishment for not doing so, is that the towns that are out of compliance, won’t be able to obtain grants for infrastructure, housing choice, or other local capital projects
Joe Selvaggi:
But do all towns. And I think that you addressed this in paper or a paper you sent to me, I think maybe even in the Brookings paper that you also sent to me you know, only a small percentage of towns get those grants, you know, in general, more affluent communities may not need these, these grants. So there there’s no in the proverbial carrot and stick scenario, there’s no carrot. Is there a stick if, if there is no carrot, if the community doesn’t need the state in any way?
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah. I think there’s a case to be made that taking away these grant opportunities will not sufficiently deter some communities from simply ignoring section 3A’s requirements. But perhaps a stricter punishment scheme would hurt the political viability of the law overall. So it’s a balancing act. I, I think in the long term, the big stick is that as long as Massachusetts has an affordable housing crisis in know this sort of paradigm of the state playing a bigger role in putting forth sustainable development proposals is not going away. You know, California is even further down this path than we are. And even within Massachusetts, I know there are several communities that you know, learn their lesson on 40 B and want to be more proactive about implementing section three, a and so I think the, the kind of long view of this is the recognition that, you know, it’s now, or never, you can plan for, for change, or, you know, the state can, can kind of pull up the rug out from under take that control away. And you know, maybe the ultimatum hasn’t quite come to pass for, for a lot of these communities yet, but I think that it’s going to, it’s only gonna get stricter going forward. As long as this housing crisis is continues to get worse.
Joe Selvaggi:
So you know, this is where we’ll have to wrap up our show, but to translate thatit’s coming more diverse housing stock is coming to your community. It behooves the town leaders to make a plan that works for that community. Otherwise, something that may not work as well for that community is going to be imposed on them in the future. Inevitably. Is that a fair summation?
Andrew Mikula:
I think so. I think the politics of this have changed rapidly even in the last 10 years. And there’s now a greater kind of recognition that this housing shortage isn’t only affecting, you know, people who are low income. It’s also the middle class. It’s also, you know, working people, teachers and firefighters and mail carriers. Right. So and I think that’s, that started to kind of change the calculus on to what extent this needs to be top priority on Beacon Hill.
Joe Selvaggi:
Indeed, we want a healthy community and a home for all the people who work here, not just the very rich and unfortunately the very poor and we want to integrate communities. So we’re bumping up against each other in each of our respective communities. We don’t want to be economically isolated or economically segregated. We want to have more integrated communities. I think that’s music to those of us who love markets ears. These are artificial barriers, not real barriers and we’ll all do better to see some reform here. So let’s take us out here by telling us where can our listeners learn more about your comments and how can they, in a sense bring this knowledge to their next city hall planning meeting and engage with their community leaders.
Andrew Mikula:
Yeah, the state has a great web page full of information on section three, a it’s called multifamily zoning requirement for MBTA communities. ‘d Also recommend checking out Salim Firth’s great map pointing out which communities are currently in compliance and which aren’t, he’s
Joe Selvaggi:
At the he’s at the me Mercatus Institute, right. Or center Mercatus center,
Andrew Mikula:
Right? Yes. Thank you. Yeah. <laugh> yeah. Oh, you mean our,
Joe Selvaggi:
We don’t all know, we don’t all know where it is. <Laugh>
Andrew Mikula:
On. All right. And, and also encourage you to get in touch with your local town planner, community development department, or town manager, and, and ask about what your community is doing to comply with the new law. And if you wanna read my public comments in folder there@pioneerinstitute.org under our recent research section.
Joe Selvaggi:
Wonderful. Well, that’s great. Well, we’ll wrap up this show there. That’s, that’s been a lot, it’s a lot for our listeners to digest, but I think you were clear at least we’ve wet their appetite for this issue. And then they can take it from there in their own local community. So I wanna thank you very much for joining me again on hub, long as, as usual, you’re a fund of information.
Andrew Mikula:
Thank you, Joe. Always a pleasure to be on Hubwonk.
Joe Selvaggi:
This has been another episode of Hubwonk, a podcast of Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston. If you enjoy today, show there’s several ways to support us and Pioneer Institute. It would be easier for you and better for us. If you subscribe to Hubwonk on your iTunes podcast, catcher, if you’d like to make it easier for others to find Hubwonk, it would be great if you offer a five star rating or a favorable review, we’re always grateful. If you want to share Hubwonk with friends, if you have ideas or comments or suggestions for me on topics for future episodes, you’re welcome to email me at Hubwonk@pioneerinstitute.org. Please join me next week for a new episode of Hubwonk.
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Evan Silverio Builds Upon Immigrant Mother’s Business Success
/in Economic Opportunity, Featured, JobMakers /by Editorial StaffThis week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with Evan Silverio, child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic, President and CEO of Silverio Insurance Agency, and founder of Diverse Real Estate, both in Lawrence, Massachusetts. With the example set by his mother, who founded the agency, Evan has achieved success, despite getting into real estate during a housing bust. Evan has since purchased nearly 100 properties across the commonwealth. He describes the examples set by his immigrant mother and grandfather, and how that shaped not just his approach to business but also giving back to the community that nurtured him, as you’ll learn in this week’s JobMakers.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Denzil Mohammed:
I’m Denzil Mohammed, welcome to Jobmakers
Denzil Mohammed:
In report from the immigrant learning center, titled adult children of immigrant entrepreneurs. It was found that children of immigrant business owners tended to work careers that helped people social work, healthcare education, rather than entrepreneurship makes sense. They’ve seen how much effort it takes to run a business in a new country while trying to learn the language laws and customs. At the same time. In fact, the report found that the parents often dissuade their children from following the path they chose for Evan Silvio, child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic, president and CEO of Silvio insurance agency and founder of diverse real estate, both in Lawrence, Massachusetts, he bit the bullet. And with the example set by his mother who founded the agency achieved success, eventually getting into real estate during a housing bust, wasn’t easy, but just like the everance his mother embodied Evan stuck with it and has since purchased nearly 100 properties across the Commonwealth. Evan describes the example set by his immigrant mother and grandfather and how that shaped, not just his approach to business, but also his approach to giving back to the community that near kind of like those other children of immigrant entrepreneurs. I mentioned, as you learn in this week’s job makers,
Denzil Mohammed:
Evan Silverio, president CEO, Silverio Insurance Agency, and manager of Diverse Real Estate, welcome to the Jobmakers podcast. How are you?
Evan Silverio:
Thank you. Thank you so much, thank you for having me.
Denzil Mohammed:
So tell us a little bit about your businesses and also perhaps tell us a little bit about the things that matter most to you as a professional and an entrepreneur.
Evan Silverio:
My mother was, you know, extremely intelligent, hardworking, fearless individual. I myself and two older sisters that were born here, you know, it’s interesting. She gave me the name, Evan, because she liked the name, but because she thought it was going to be easier on me in my transition in the United States. Right. But funny enough, a lot of people find it confusing. They call me Kevin. So didn’t go as as planned. My parents were strict. They were also very aspirational coming from another country indirectly, I learned a lot through their own struggles as immigrants long working hours failing out at a lot of business, different business ventures navigating the school systems helping family with immigration paperwork. I remember a story about my sister my older sister going to school. And my mother really had to fight for her, for them to accept her in the school system and not put her in a Spanish speaking class.
Denzil Mohammed:
Like the English language program or something.
Evan Silverio:
Yeah and I remember that being a huge struggle. And eventually, you know, she put up such a fight that they allowed her to participate and my sister did fine and she excelled. So it was interesting. But for us, it was normal, we’re around a lot of immigrants, so it made it even that much more normal.
Denzil Mohammed:
So you spoke a little bit about your mother and I think you alluded to her determination and her perseverance in the situation with your sister at school. Tell us a little bit more about your mother. She is an entrepreneur, a community leader. She even ran from Mayor of Lawrence. That is incredibly cool. And incredibly, as you say, aspirational, tell us more about her.
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, like I mentioned you know, when, when I think about my mother just intelligent, hard work and fearless, but also funny, passionate, you know, bighearted I think, I think she spent most of her life making sure that everyone else was okay. And that’s exactly how she formed her business and why she gave dedicated long hours to the community, her church, her family, right. Her business was basically established because she was helping friends and family fill out paperwork do translations immigration consulting,then after that it leads to taxes and eventually to insurance. And it was more out of her dedication to her community that she also found a way to monetize it and say, okay, well, I need to also run a business. So,there has to be some fees associated with that. Ubut it wasn’t about the money either because most of our time through the community was volunteer work, right. City counselor, or running for mayor and, and saying, you know, we’re gonna do, or her time on the boards,umore volunteer work than anything.
Denzil Mohammed:
I do want to make a point that, you know, she started these successful businesses here. And as you say, it indirectly affected and improved the community. But she would not have been able to start her own business back in the Dominican Republic if she were living there, right?
Evan Silverio:
The opportunity to help other people who really needed someone like her, a voice, a representative of sorts. And I think, you know, she used all of the skills that she, she had and, and, and really shined being here in particular in Lawrence. But I think the type of person my mother was, she would’ve been successful in the Dominican Republic.
Denzil Mohammed:
So let’s turn it over to you now tell us about your real estate business that you started in 2009 while still in your twenties. What has that been like and how do you see this business growing in the future?
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, the real estate business is just essentially myself investing in real estate. So prior to jumping on board to the family business, I was a loan officer for a total of nine years, I think, four years before jumping on board. And then while I was doing insurance, I was also continuing the loan officer career. And the reason being is I just needed the money. Right. when my mother came and asked me to jump into the family business and she couldn’t afford much, right. So I said, okay, let me, you know, come on board. And, and, and I’ll continue doing mortgage as best I can with the same amount of time through the through mortgages and through being a loan consultant I just recognized real estate a little bit.
Evan Silverio:
I could understand it a little bit and I decided, you know, what I think I can throw my hat in the ring and, and try to make some money in real estate. And my first two investments failed. They were terrible failures. And so, yeah, so it was pretty interesting. It was during the real estate boom and bust. And, and I got caught with some real estate in my hand, but for some reason I said to myself, I still still believe, you know, that this is a good time to invest. So while everybody else was kind of back pedaling, I got back on the horse, started investing again. And,it was hard, you know, you have to sacrifice, you have to make sure you do good by a lot of people.
Evan Silverio:
You know, as I mentioned earlier, it was a lot of hard money lending in order to get some investments in but the reason that I that I thought it was interesting, was it, my reasoning kept on changing over time. Initially it was, you know, if I can just get a property to pay for my auto loan, that’d be great. And then it said, well, if I could do that, I can get a property to pay for, you know, wherever I was gonna live. And that would be great. And then it just kept on going and snowballing and you know, and a hundred properties later, you know, you change it and say, well, passive income. It has a retirement plan. There’s booming equity. And now it’s funding certain acquisitions for the insurance agency. So it’s, it’s kind of working out well.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow. I like how that it balances out with the insurance agency too. And as you say, a hundred properties, that is incredible. So you spoke a lot about you and your mother’s community involvement and you know, the model of her business, helping people with immigration forms and taxes and venturing that into a business, monetizing it your involvement today stretches from the Lawrence redevelopment authority to a scholarship fund you started with Grammy-winning producer and Lawrence native DJ Buddha. So tell me what is the guiding principle behind this kind of work that you do?
Evan Silverio:
Honestly, I think it just comes from this responsibility to give back, to contribute, the scholarship fund, as you mentioned with DJ Buddha, he was a Lawrentian such as myself. He went to Central Catholic with me and I think post graduation once we had some money in our pocket we had a clear understanding that the reasons we were allotted certain opportunities was because of the opportunities that we were given to attend, you know a higher education than the high school level. And we wanted to give other people that same opportunity. We think that really was a pivot a game changer for us in our younger years. And and if other people can have that same experience and we can make that same pivot for other people, then, then we were going to put some effort into that.
Evan Silverio:
But I think it really down to the responsibility to contribute and give back where, and when we can. I think now where I have less time on my hands I know that I still have in the back of my head because part of the whole business plan be it with real estate or be it with the insurance, is to make sure that successful enough, that we can continue to, to contribute to those in the private sector, nonprofit or just community, a advocates that that align with our belief system. And hopefully we can contribute because they need capital to do what they do. So if we can be a source for them then, then we’ll be happy to be <affirmative>
Denzil Mohammed:
As you talk about community development. I, I really think deeply of Lawrence, which of course, you know, had all the mills and it had that sort of boon, and then it sort of busted, and it became a place where immigrants moved in because the rents were cheap. I recall your mother saying that it wasn’t until Latinos were elected to the city, a council, that things really began to change for minorities in terms of access to help and growing their businesses and things like that in terms of economic development in Lawrence, where do you see Lawrence headed and what changes would you like to see, or what changes would you like to, to help bring about?
Evan Silverio:
Yeah, Lawrence is definitely evolving. And I think that you’re looking at the tail end of some great things, right. Lawrence 15, 20 years ago is a totally different Lawrence. And I think I think we have a lot of communities asking our local leaders right now. How, how did Lawrence do it? I was just on a call the other day with, I think it was Chicopee asking and picking our brain on, Hey, you know, we, we saw everything that you were able to do, you know, can you give us some, some pointers, right. And, and what’s funny is the pointers really come down to that. You really just have to have enough people invested who want it bad enough to roll up their sleeves, to try to get the work done, right? Whatever changes and the better the plan than, than the better, the more the buy-in.
Evan Silverio:
But if you don’t have the people it’s gonna be a very difficult thing to move. The city in Lawrence, we have that we have private, we have public have nonprofit, all collaborating and working together. This has been the fundamental difference. There is no one person or entity who’s done it all. It’s a combined effort over a long period of time. So I think a lot of people say, oh, wow. Overnight, no, it’s, <laugh>, it’s, you know, 30 years in the making. So it definitely, it takes a village but we need more villagers to take pride and to participate. We can’t afford to wait for someone else to make these changes for us. We need to be the change.
Denzil Mohammed:
And it’s safe to say that immigrants, business owners, workers, community members are part of that change. In Lawrence, I was, I remember talking to Theresa Park on this podcast and she was very proud of the work that she was able to accomplish in Lawrence, which was incidentally, the place where her Korean family moved when they first came to the us. Finally you said your, you know, your grandfather moved from the Dominican Republic to the us and eventually sent for your mother. It wasn’t an easy task for either of them. And, you know, your mom walking around with dictionaries at school, and I have that vivid memory in my head, but she stuck with it. And here you are reflect on those risks that they took and compare it perhaps to the risks that you take as an entrepreneur.
Evan Silverio:
Cause I, I think about, about it off, I think about it off in the risk that they take. And I think a, a lot of what I’ve done has been based on thinking about in retrospect, the sacrifices that were made by all of those that came before me. I think I mentioned that earlier. I think about a lot of the risks that I’ve taken as an investor, you know, the hard money land, the, the, the large risks that I’ve taken. And I, by far cannot compare that to the risks of my grandfather. My mother, my father, who came here you know when I think about it, I think it’s because I still live in my comfort zone and my choices be it co college or career, we all closely <affirmative>, you know relative to where my family is and, and what I thought my options were.
Evan Silverio:
But just having those options, just having options in general, I think a lot of people take for granted, right? You don’t have to be right about your options, but you still have options. Right. but their risk and, and their decisions revolved around something deeper the safety of their families to book people in better positions, that’s not so much themselves, but their, but their daughters, their sons, their, the, and, and the sons and daughters of, of sons and daughters to have more resources you know, they, they, weren’t looking to be millionaires. They, they were just looking for a better life and they risked it all to do so they came to this country with no real money no real connections and no resources. And so they got here and they, they figure it out, right.
Evan Silverio:
There was this, this myth that the country that they were going to had this stuff waiting for them. And this was still a better option than just staying put. Right. and, you know, I, I think nobody goes into something and, and takes risks and says, this is a bad idea, but let me do it anyway, everybody, the whatever risk they’re taking is because there’s some reward and, and, and something. And I think in retrospect I, myself and the reward and hopefully my kids, kids as well of all the sacrifices that they’ve made,
Denzil Mohammed:
I did not mean to exclude dad. We have to mention dad <laugh> as well. Last I’m sure that they’re gonna be young brown boys and girls teenagers, people in their twenties who perhaps consider starting their own business. What advice would you give to young body budding entrepreneurs, or what are some of the lessons that you’ve learned that you think you would like to impart
Evan Silverio:
There? Nothing builds nothing, beats out, keeping your word, you know building trust you know, those things, that’s what everything is based off of. Right. I relationships with bankers, relationship with networking people, all of that is gonna continue building. The more that you can build your trust with them and complete the task that you say you’re gonna complete. If you continue doing that, I think more people will follow you. I think more people will trust you. I think more people will invest in you and you have to be willing to take that risk on yourself and say, you’re good enough. And, and, and you’re trustworthy enough and, and don’t break, don’t break that for anything or anybody not even money. And if you keep at it, you will succeed,
Denzil Mohammed:
Not even money. I love how you phrased that. Evan Silverio, President & CEO of Siverio Insurance Agency in Lawrence, Haverhill and Woburn and sole manager of Diverse real estate, thank you so much for joining us on the JobMakers podcast. This was a lovely and fascinating interview.
Evan Silverio:
Thank you so much, Denzil, for having me and I love the podcast, and I’ll continue to keep listening.
Denzil Mohammed:
Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston and the Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not for profit that gives immigrants a voice. I am so happy that you joined us for this week’s powerful story of immigrant entrepreneurship passed down to the next gen. Remember, you can subscribe to Jobmakers on Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. And please leave us a review. I’m Denzil Mohammed. See you next Thursday at noon for another Jobmakers.
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