Catholic schools are closing their doors all across America, leaving future generations with nowhere to turn for the high-quality academics and values-based education so many families are seeking. The number of students attending Catholic schools in the US fell from about 5.2 million in 1965 to around two million in 2008.
Pioneer Institute believes these schools are worth preserving. For over a decade, we have raised our voice in support of these excellent academic options, and tools such as tax credit scholarships that would enable more families to attend.
Pioneer has held public forums, published research on the benefits of Catholic education, on successful models such as Cristo Rey, and on policy changes that would stop the Massachusetts education department from depriving religious school students of special needs services and school nurses. The Institute has also convened key stakeholders, appeared in local and national press, filed amicus briefs, produced a feature a documentary film, and much more.
“Barely half of students (53 percent) graduate from BPS high schools, excluding the exam schools,” Pioneer Institute Executive Director Jim Stergios underscores at the start of this Open Letter to Boston Mayor Michelle Wu.
That’s just one in a long litany of troubles within the Boston Public Schools, much of which is due to chaotic management and at times even willful misleading of the public.
In this letter, Pioneer recommends fresh thinking, and, specifically, a highly focused and time-limited intervention, in partnership with the state department of education.
Related Content:
This week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with Jackie Krick, immigrant from Colombia and founder, president and CEO of ECU Communications in Manassas, Virginia. They discuss the entrepreneurial spirit of the newest Americans – immigrants – and why they are twice as likely to start a business and create jobs. For Jackie, it took a few tries, but she learned the system, used available resources, and today, she runs a successful digital communications and cross-cultural services agency focused largely on federal contracts. She started an award-winning nonprofit called Impacto Youth to give underserved teens access to education and skills training. And she cofounded Centerfuse, a coworking space for microentrepreneurs to discover, learn, train and be mentored by successful business owners like her, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.
Guest:
A native of Colombia, South America, Jackie Krick is a marketing and advertising professional and an entrepreneur advocate of women-owned businesses, and youth leadership. As President and Founder of ECU Communications (ECU), a full-service digital marketing communications agency in Manassas, VA, she brings a three-decade career in providing award-winning marketing, advertising, strategic planning services to a diverse base of notable federal, state & local government, nonprofit and private sector clients. Jackie’s work in the field of marketing began before she founded ECU Communications in 2004. Earlier, in the role of Vice President of Marketing for a government contractor, she led the company to significant multimillion dollar advertising contracts. In addition, she previously held other marketing-related positions in support of information technology services for hardware, software and networking solutions as Director of Marketing, and Channel Marketing Manager. Jackie is also a partner of CenterFuse, a cowork space downtown Historic Manassas that supports growth and development of entrepreneurs, solopreneurs and emerging ventures that need a fully equipped space to do business, attend workshops, network and grow. Jackie focuses her special attention in support of underserved charitable interests, both in Northern Virginia and nationally. Her desire to continually give back to the community, led her to establish IMPACTO Youth, a 501c3 organization, in 2013, with the mission to “shape, advance and improve the lives of economically and socially disadvantaged youth through education.”
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Denzil Mohammed:
I’m Denzil Mohammed and welcome to Jobmakers.
Denzil Mohammed:
Arguably entrepreneurship is what sets the United States apart from the rest of the world it’s made by and for entrepreneurs. And it is uniquely suited to capitalize on the entrepreneurial spirit of its newest Americans immigrants. That’s a big part of the reason why immigrants are twice as likely to start a business and create jobs for Jackie Krick immigrant, from Colombia and founder, president and CEO of ECU communications in Manassas, Virginia. It took a few tries, but she learned the system and used the resources available to her available to all Americans. Today. She runs a successful digital communications and cross-cultural services agency focused ly on federal contracts. However, Jackie takes that love of entrepreneurship further. She started an award-winning nonprofit called impact to youth to give underserved teens access to education and skills training, and she co-founded CenterFuse a co-working space for micro entrepreneurs to discover, learn, train, and be mentored by successful business winners like Jackie, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers,
Denzil Mohammed:
Jackie Krick, founder, president and CEO of ECU communications in Manasas Virginia. Welcome to the Jobmakers podcast. How are you?
Jackie Krick:
Thank you, Denzil. I’m doing great. Happy to be here.
Denzil Mohammed:
So tell us a little bit about your business and why it’s special.
Jackie Krick:
ECU communications is a leading woman known small business. We’re a full agency specializing in digital communications in cross and cross cultural services. We were founded 18 years ago. We celebrated our 18th anniversary in, at the end of April. So we’re very, very proud of the accomplishments that we’ve done today ECU communications services clients across the us, and we provide a multitude of digital communication services, including branding media website development, app development, all types of communications, very proud to be part of the organization,
Denzil Mohammed:
Even coming up with taglines and slogans for businesses. I know. And you’ve, you have a range of very different, very diverse clients, right from the government to the private sector to nonprofits. Is that correct?
Jackie Krick:
That is correct. Our primary market is the federal government. That’s when ECU was founded, we started with servicing the federal government. We became eight, a certified in the, in the SME small business administration. It’s a certification for nine years and we successfully graduated from that in 2015. So we’ve serviced the federal government for all these years. And along the way, we’ve expanded our services to nonprofit organizations, stayed in local organizations and also the private sector, which is a growing area of interest right now,
Denzil Mohammed:
Really. But did you always want or expect to be a business owner?
Jackie Krick:
That’s
Denzil Mohammed:
Was that in the cards?
Jackie Krick:
Interesting question. I, I, I think I grew into that.
Jackie Krick:
Hmm. So I started working you know, my first jobs were just you know, normal jobs and but I was, I always felt that I wasn’t really happy in the role that I was. I always felt that I could do things a little bit better in my way, obviously a little bit faster. And I felt myself pulling out of the, the everyday kind of activities to, to want to be more in command of the things that I wanted done. So I, I think over the years I did fall into that role to say that I woke up one day and I wanted to be a business owner, maybe not so much, but I’m very happy with the decision that I made.
Denzil Mohammed:
I think you should be very happy with your decision. It’s been such a success. So a lot of Americans don’t know what it’s like growing up in other countries, particularly south American countries, developing countries. And you yourself have a really diverse background stressing from France to Chile, to Bolivia take us back to let’s say your grandfather and bring it up to today, up with you in Manassas.
Jackie Krick:
So my grandmother, my grandfather was French. He was, his family was a hundred percent French. They migrated to Columbia and that’s where he was born. He and 13 other brothers and sisters, when the oldest kids became eligible for the military, they went back to France. And so my grandfather was one of that first batch of kids that were born, went to the military in France. And when he was done, he decided to go back to Columbia to see the country where he was born. And of course he met, my grandmother fell in love and married, and they had five children. One of ’em was my, my mother moving forward. My mom was an adult. She fell in love with a Jillian man.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
He, he had traveled to Colombia and fell in love, got married. <Affirmative> my oldest brother was born in Chile. I’m sorry. My oldest brother was born in Colombia. And then she went to live in Chile for a few years where my two other brothers were born and then they went back to Colombia where I was born. So I’m the youngest, the only girl and well, I’m the baby. Of course, baby. Not a spoil one though.
Denzil Mohammed:
And then your stepfather came on the scene and he was American.
Jackie Krick:
Correct? my stepfather, my mom met my stepfather when I was nine years old. They got married. He was in Columbia doing a mission with the department of state and was there for a few years. At age 15, he was transferred when I was at 15. We got news that he was getting transferred to Bolivia. So we all moved my mom and my brothers and I, and my stepfather moved to Bolivia for six years. And that’s where we basically lived. I loved Bolivia, wonderful place, beautiful people. The indigenous people were amazing, the food, everything else. I hold Bolivia very dear in my heart.
Denzil Mohammed:
And so you moved at 15 and then you moved again when you were 21, when your stepfathers transferred back to the us, right?
Jackie Krick:
Yes.
Denzil Mohammed:
And what was that experience like moving to the United States of America?
Jackie Krick:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
So through those years we had visited the United States and we knew what it was like and, and spoke English. But I can tell you that nothing can prepare, would prepare me to come and live here. It was very different when you are visiting one location is one thing when you’re living and working and, you know doing your daily activities is completely, completely different. So it took, it took getting used to it. It took, even though I spoke English, it took getting your ear accustomed to everybody speaking English to you all the time. The way of life was completely different. So it, it really, it was a hard thing for me. I, I remember going to sleep and really crying myself to sleep sometimes, really just because I, I was in a very different environment. I was living with my brother and his wife away from home for the first time and moving into a world of, you know, working and just being an adult,
Denzil Mohammed:
Navigating the system.
Jackie Krick:
Yeah. Very, very different. So it took me a little while, but eventually I, you know, I, I surpassed that and here I am. So
Denzil Mohammed:
We, we talked about your business a little bit earlier, and we’re gonna talk about a little bit more that you started in 2004 ECU communications, but you sort of started your own business at way back in 1990. Didn’t you, you went off on your own doing graphic design, right? Yes. What was, what was that like, tell us why you ended up having to close it. And what lessons did you think you learned from that experience?
Jackie Krick:
I started it because I, again, I wanted to do something on my own. I really felt empowered to try something new that I could drive on my own and make something out of it. The reason I closed it quite honestly, I went through a divorce and it became really hard because I’ll, I’ll tell you in a minute what lessons I learned, but it became really hard for me to be the one going out, looking for work and then coming back and doing the work. So I was an organization of one person, which very difficult to do. You, you cannot be all to everything and do every other work. So it was very difficult. I eventually decided to just fold the business and, and get myself employed again. It was very hard decision. I can tell you that I, I didn’t wanna do it, but I had some of the lessons that I learned definitely is that you need to, if you want to grow your business, you cannot do it alone.
Jackie Krick:
You need to find the people that can help you, the great talent that can help you. You have to have that collaboration and you have to have the, the right the right tools and depending how big you wanna be. Right. obviously I learned a tremendous amount of lessons during that time, because the second time around when I started ECU, I knew it in my mind that I wanted to do something completely different and that I could not be the lead. I could not be the graphic designer. I could not be the writer. And also the business development. When you start a business, you do wear a lot of hats, but you cannot do that constantly because that will never get you to the next level.
Denzil Mohammed:
And you’re also the janitor and you’re also the technician and you’re also the driver. Let’s not forget those things.
Jackie Krick:
That’s right. <Laugh>
Denzil Mohammed:
Your current business, which you started in 2004 is now flourishing. Take us through the different steps and stages of how you grew that business.
Jackie Krick:
Well, one of the things that I learned when I went back and got myself employed again, right. It was working with a, in the it sector, but always doing marketing and advertising and they were doing government contracting. So I learned how to work in that environment. I learned a lot about contracts in managing contracts, although I was not doing that, but I learned a lot about that. And so that gave me the ability to say, you know, here’s an opportunity. The government does a lot of business with a variety of sizes of business. Like you have the small businesses, the, the large businesses, the eight, eight businesses. And so I saw an opportunity there to really get started as a, as a small business first and then apply for the eight a certification, which it’s a, it’s a certification for specific folks.
Jackie Krick:
So, you know, being a Hispanic woman, I definitely was want to be able to get that certification because of who I was. And I knew that with the broad range of competitors, that there are out there having the access to a smaller pool of opportunities would definitely help my business grow up. So I went after that application. And then after that, I started going after the government contracts, it took me a while. It, it really did. You really need to know and have access to a lot of different tools. So if I had to do it all over again, I probably change it up a little bit, but you know, those are the things that you learned along the way, right? And, and now I love to help others and tell others, you know, how they can do it too, because it’s not it, it it’s, you have to try certain things before you can really get that, that the right path. I would’ve waited a little bit longer before getting my Aday certification. I would’ve waited until I had a, a larger base of business. If you know, the Aday certification is only nine years. Once you get it, you get into it nine years, go by and you’re out. So,
Denzil Mohammed:
And just for, for listeners who may not be familiar with it, could you just describe it a little bit?
Jackie Krick:
So the a a is a small business administration program to help underserved people from countries like Hispanics, African Americans, Asians, they can apply to become ADA certified. And what happens is that the government agencies, they set aside a portion of their purchasing contracts of their contracts. They set ’em aside as a, a, a, that means that the, the pool of competitors can only be a, a so that you have a, a bigger opportunity to have access to those contracts.
Denzil Mohammed:
So you found the opportunities and you went after them. That’s, that’s what a business owner does. And, but you spoke a little bit about creating opportunities for others and sort of letting other people, other, probably BU budding business owners know the kind of knowledge and background that you now have. First off, I wanna bring up impact to youth. This is where you want to create opportunities for young people to learn and develop their skills. And, you know, they come from vulnerable communities. And you, you said once I heard you say that this was your real passion. Can you describe this a little bit for me and why you decided to do this?
Jackie Krick:
Yes. So I think that everybody has such great potential to do something with themselves, but it really all depends on the path that they get on. And the reason why impact a youth was founded was to give so many kids, young, young adults, young kids opportunities to dream. My mother used to always say, you know, when you dream high, you need to dream higher because chances are, you’re going to get to a certain point, maybe not as high as you’re dreaming. So I wanna give kids the opportunity to dream as high as they can, and be able to get more than what they think that they can get, you know,
Denzil Mohammed:
More than what they were born into, I guess.
Jackie Krick:
That’s right. That’s right. So the other thing that I believe is that when you give those opportunities to young people, you’re teaching them something, found with a, a great foundation. You’re teaching them that, you know, they’re able to go and do things on their own that they’re capable of being self providers. And that’s really what I, what I want to teach them to go out, be self providers help yourselves learn and accomplish a lot of great things, because that’s the greatest feeling when you, when you go and get it yourself, rather than, you know, be there waiting for something, somebody to give it to you.
Denzil Mohammed:
Does any particular young person come to mind when you think of the program?
Jackie Krick:
We’ve done impact to youth academy, where we brought in kids from the high schools around here and mentor them through soft skills and career planning and things like that. And some kids came back to me and said, you know, everything we learned there we’ve, we’ve, we’ve applied. And so some kids were starting their, their careers as entrepreneurs and learning new things. It it’s really, it touches me a lot. It really does. The one thing that I did learn is that we need to start younger, not just high school kids, because when you’re in high school, you’re already, it’s kind of too late. So we are learning that we need to start more in the middle, middle school to really touch the kids and really get them interested in into thinking about it could be a career. It could be an entrepreneur. It, doesn’t not, everybody’s made to be a, a business owner and not everybody’s made to have a four year degree. You know, there’s other things that kids can do as long as they’re willing to learn something. That to me is the basic thing.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
I get very passionate about that.
Denzil Mohammed:
I can, I can tell but what was the main driving force for you to do this?
Jackie Krick:
Yeah, I wanna give back to the community. I, I, I wanted to share some of the success that I’ve had with the community. I, I wanted to give something to the young kids to help ’em
Denzil Mohammed:
And you’re also helping budding entrepreneurs, because I know that you have a, a relationship with the city of Manassas, and there’s a co-working space that I guess, incubates budding entrepreneurs who may wanna start their business. Can you describe that for me?
Jackie Krick:
So about five years ago, we engaged. I’m a, I’m a, a co-founder one founder, one of four, and we engaged in a private partner, private public partnership with the city of Manassas to open up a coworking space here in the city. And the idea is to help entrepreneurs micro, tiny little companies come and have a place where they can discover new potentials for opportunities to grow for training. We have the SD B C here. I think they come to the office maybe two times a week, and they meet with businesses that either are starting their businesses, or they already are, have been founded, but they need more guidance and more mentorship. So we do that through, through the SD B C and then it’s very economical. It’s only like 10, $10 in a day that they can come here and they can have access to all their resources. You know, a table networking, they can print materials, they can also meet other like-minded individuals that where they can, you know, engage and, and have new business opportunities. And that actually has happened a lot here. So very interested and very engaging. I love everything about growth and entrepreneurship and being able to connect with others. That’s what cent fused us.
Denzil Mohammed:
It’s almost like you’ve come full circle since you first moved to the us and would cry yourself to sleep. And now you’re actually actively giving back to other people, other young people probably from immigrant families as well, vulnerable families, too. Which is really, really very cool, which brings it to my last question, which is the United States has allowed you to thrive and be successful. Maybe it took a couple tries, but you got there. And you, I’m sure you’re still dreaming higher and higher. How do you feel about the United States as a place that allowed you to succeed as a woman, as an entrepreneur, as someone who has dreams,
Jackie Krick:
I love this country. Hmm. I love it. I, I really think that it’s all inside of you and I, I really, I am a force inside of me that really wanted to push forward just who I am. And I am so glad and thankful and appreciative of the United States in, in the ways that yes, we have a long way to go in so many things. Right. But I had the opportunity to do it. And that, I mean, opening a new business here is as easy as going and getting a license for your business.
Jackie Krick:
Mm. Obviously that’s not something I would recommend because you need to know a little bit more than just that. But what I’m saying is there are so many things that facilitate you doing something. And if you put yourself into it every single day and you dedicate and you believe what you’re gonna do, and you have a computer or you have, you know, get and go talk to people, it is so much easier to do business here in Columbia, maybe other countries too, when you reach a certain age, you pretty old and there’s no more work. There’s no more opportunities in the United States. You have limitless opportunities where you can work and you can start your business, even when you’re a senior citizen. It’s amazing. I love it.
Denzil Mohammed:
It’s almost as though it’s built to foster entrepreneurship, right.
Jackie Krick:
Pretty much, pretty much. Yeah.
Denzil Mohammed:
And capitalize on the entrepreneurial talents and desires of immigrants. Like you, Jackie Krick, founder, president, and CEO of ECU communications in Manassas Virginia immigrant from Colombia and business owner. Thank you so much for joining us on Jobmakers,
Jackie Krick:
Denzil, thank you so much. It’s great speaking with you.
Denzil Mohammed:
Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a non-profit in Boston and the Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s inspiring story of immigrant entrepreneurship. Remember, you can subscribe to Jobmakers of apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please leave us at a rating and a review I’m Denzil Mohammed, see you next Thursday at noon.
Recent Episodes:
This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Cara Candal and Gerard Robinson talk with Cass Sunstein, the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard Law School, and the author of The New York Times best-selling book, The World According to Star Wars. He shares what drew him to this topic, and why, after 45 years, these movies have become a $70 billion multimedia franchise and continue to have such wide intergenerational appeal. They review some of the classic myths and legends that influenced George Lucas, the brilliant creator of the films. Prof. Sunstein explains some of the larger civic educational lessons found in the space epic, including the war between the democratic Republic and the autocratic Empire, in which the Jedi Knights rebel against imperial tyranny. They also discuss the story of Anakin Skywalker, and his turn to the Dark Side; and the supernatural “Force,” that imbues a series classified as science fiction with a transcendent quality.
Stories of the Week: In England, university and student groups are opposing government plans to set minimum eligibility requirements for student loans. In New York City, Mayor Eric Adams is seeking an extension of mayoral control of the school district, which for the past 20 years has meant important oversight authority over the schools chancellor and most of the governing panel.
Guest:
Cass Sunstein is the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard, where he is founder and director of the Program on Behavioral Economics and Public Policy. He is the most cited law professor in the United States and likely internationally. He has served as Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs and as a member of the President’s Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies. He is the winner of the 2018 Holberg Prize. His many books include the bestseller Nudge: Improving Decisions about Health, Wealth, and Happiness (with Richard H. Thaler), Simpler: The Future of Government, #Republic: Divided Democracy in the Age of Social Media, and The New York Times bestseller, The World According to Star Wars. He is a frequent adviser to governments all over the world.
The next episode will air on Weds., May 18th, with Nicholas Lemann, Joseph Pulitzer II and Edith Pulitzer Moore Professor of Journalism; Dean Emeritus; Director, Columbia World Projects at Columbia University; and author of the books The Promised Land: The Great Black Migration and How It Changed America and The Big Test – The Origin, Design, and Purpose of the SAT.
Tweet of the Week:
Educators and children’s health experts alike argue students need more support to prevent the overuse of technology from leading to unhealthy behaviors in the classroom. https://t.co/YM5Cg49Fxy
— Education Week (@educationweek) May 9, 2022
News Links:
Universities oppose plan for student cap and loans in England
Mayor Adams headed to Albany to push for mayoral control
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
[00:00:00] Cara: Well, hello everybody. And welcome to another week of The Learning Curve. This is Cara Candal coming to you from Boston, Massachusetts home of Pioneer Institute, which produces this amazing podcast, this venue for which I get to spend, an hour each week with my friend, Gerard Robinson, GR how are you doing?
[00:00:40] Gerard: I’m doing well. And I still have not watched Star Wars.
[00:00:43] Cara: Uh, huh? Uh huh. Well maybe today’s guests will be able to take you to task on that. Somebody will watch Star Wars and we will talk about it on the show and you’ll think what have I been missing all of these years? What have I been missing out on this point in my life?
[00:00:59] I’ll be [00:01:00] waiting for that. Gerard. I have a question for you. I want to know Gerard, do you consider yourself to be a good standardized test?
[00:01:09] GR: No. Ooh, do tell I still to this date have one of the lowest scores in the history of the sat. Even when I took other standardized tests, I did not do well.
[00:01:22] I’m not a great standardized test taker. I’ve noted that for years so. I’m a new.
[00:01:27] Cara: Get you are a very successful person in life, right? I think you are, I think you’re wildly successful. I’m
[00:01:33] GR: asking Kimberly. Well, it depends upon the day. Kimberly will say yes or no, but. overcame this just so we
[00:01:40] Cara: all know that Kimberly’s always right.
[00:01:42] But the thing is that I too, I was a terrible standardized test taker, like infamously. I was always the kid who like missed one of the rows of bubbles and was always one answer on. And then didn’t realize it until the end of the test and then we’ll panic, but I’m asking you this because my darling twelve-year-old [00:02:00] daughter is right now taking the ERB tests, , given by her private school, the educational record bureau tests.
[00:02:05] And, um, and she just pulled the mom and she came home pretty upset. Telling me that she miss bubbled something. I’m thinking, first of all, why are these not online, but also, trying to give her hope that this, in fact, at this point in her life is really not as important as it might seem to her.
[00:02:23] I do want her to get the skill though. Test taking is a skill. It takes practice. It takes time. And to the extent that it will continue to dictate some of our lives. And I think you and I both think that testing has its place and we all got to do it. I’m just gathering proof from people who I think are really smart and accomplished to tell her that it’s not going to be the great determinant.
[00:02:42] Exactly.
[00:02:44] Cara: Exactly. All right, Gerard, I’ve got a story this week out of jolly old England, which I know you do quite a great British accent. Me, not so much. but this one piqued my interest because it is about. University students. And it’s about a [00:03:00] new proposal from the government to limit certain types of students.
[00:03:05] Very specifically those who don’t score well on the, GSEC, I believe they’re called, this is the sort of secondary school exam that is administrative it’s like a high school exit examination. Hmm. The government is saying that for students who don’t score well on, on this exam, many of those students often end up getting into institutions of higher learning, where they’re getting sort of what we might call low value credentials.
[00:03:32] And those same students are the. Borrowing from the government to put themselves through programs, maybe in college, maybe, a skilled trade where they’re earning degrees or earning certificates or earning credentials that might not actually earn them a lot of money in the long run.
[00:03:49] So government’s answer is to cap the students, to cap the number of students who can actually. Get into these programs and take out loans to things there. [00:04:00] This is really interesting for a number of reasons. Number one. The national student’s union and the universities are pushing back hard against this saying it’s only going to deepen inequities in access and access to higher education in that the people who would be most effected most impacted by this law are already those who can’t afford the cost of higher education.
[00:04:22] That’s number one, but number two, they’re saying that. It’s not just about this inherent disadvantage they’re creating, but that folks should be able to go on and sort of choose the pathway that they want. Now, Jared, I just came today from, a webinar on teacher apprenticeships, a program that we’ve talked about that’s happening in Tennessee and another places.
[00:04:42] And it got me thinking about the really good work that’s going on in the areas of college and career pathways. And it seems to me that. Both parties are in England here, probably. Right. Like government’s probably right to be worried that people are taking on debt, taking out loans, and then using that money to go [00:05:00] on, to receive credentials that might not be high value and might not bring them any return on investment.
[00:05:06] And then they’re saddled with debt. But at the same time, should we really be saying to people like, no, you have low test scores. Like me maybe, therefore, , find another path. You, we’re not going to facilitate you looking at higher education. Now that’s a pretty black and white way of putting it.
[00:05:25] But it seems to me that the more interesting conversation here is really around how countries or in our case states figure out what credentials. Our high value. And I have to say, I have some friends, at Excel and ed and lots of other places who are doing great work on this, how you figure out what credentials are high value and how you align those high value credentials with the needs of the labor market, so that people can actually go out and get jobs.
[00:05:49] And then you help people understand. Here are the credentials that are actually going to help you earn this kind of money. Here are the credentials that are going to help you meet this goal in your life. And those might [00:06:00] not even be terminal. But micro-credentials or others. So, I really liked this article Gerard, because I think it points to a problem that we’re certainly grappling with here in the U S and in some states, but we’re going to be grappling with increasingly.
[00:06:15] And it also just was very interesting to me that this proposal to cap the number of students who could take on debt or apply to receive some of these credentials, seems like just a very bureaucrat. Answer to a problem where we could get really creative help people instead of systems. So that’s my story the week.
[00:06:35] I’m sure you have some thoughts about that. My friend, what do you think?
[00:06:38] GR: A few things come to mind? Matthew Chingos. , we had him on our show. , he, was coauthor of a book called game of loans. He’s also written a number of paper on loans. so we’re looking at what I believe now. 1.6 trillion. sitting on the books in terms of loan debt, , that’s more loan debt combined than credit cards and [00:07:00] auto loans.
[00:07:01] When you look at the number of low-income first-generation college students who enroll in non-credit bearing courses cold for remediation. So you go to a state school or a private school and you spend 1, 2, 3 semesters pain photo. And finding yourself possibly leaving and year that year, but semester three or four.
[00:07:26] And guess what, like you said, you now have loans, you got to pay the loans back, you left without a credential, a license or a degree. one way to address this is to tell students to seriously consider community college or junior college. The name will change depending upon what state you’re in. I was not a great standardized test taker, as I acknowledged that.
[00:07:48] I spent three years at the community college. I took the requisite courses I needed including a year and a half of remediation given how horrible I was in high school and then later [00:08:00] matriculated to where I am today. So I think that’s one thing we have to do in our reform space. We are so. focused on to, and through college, which I support, but we often think too college means four year only that it can include a career.
[00:08:20] Or a technical college for a particular trade. I think that’s something we should look at. Yes, there’ll be the loan dynamic, but you will come out of school faster. number two, we are telling too many students to go directly to college. When in fact they can finish high school, take 1, 2, 3 years off, get a job, save money, get practical experience.
[00:08:41] And guess what? Maybe your employer will decide to send you to college. Even if it’s part-time or pay for you to go online. Lastly, the English idea of putting a cap on how many students can take out loans, I think is interesting, our free market system [00:09:00] and choice and competition models of the U S may make that difficult.
[00:09:03] But I think that’s something worth looking at. So. I just think we’ve got to have a gut check with our children and with our colleges and just admit the fact we’re sending too many students to college for you prepare, we are lying to taxpayers. We’re lying to high school students who walk away with the high school diploma that we said was college and career ready.
[00:09:25] And then I’ll bet it’s not. we’ve overlooked. And unfortunately downplay the importance of community , colleges, and trade schools. Because even when I was in school, but definitely my mom and dad were in school that was cold for that, for those people. And you can put whoever you want into those people, but those people who have tried.
[00:09:44] Wait until your air conditioning goes out in the summer. Wait until your refrigerator breaks down, wait till your car deed servicing. These are well-paid jobs. They require a head and heart. So
[00:09:55] Cass: I
[00:09:55] Cara: have to say Gerard, we had a huge pipe that just burst in our newly finished [00:10:00] basement. And I’m with you.
[00:10:02] there was a moment yesterday when I got the price where I was thinking, boy, I shouldn’t have been a policy walk, but there you go.
[00:10:11] GR: Oh, and in fact, one thing I will end with, there are organizations that are working in partnerships with schools to identify exactly what. Workforce wants a one example, at least in Virginia, is it Virginia business, higher education console?
[00:10:25] It’s a collaboration of university presidents, Virginia chamber of commerce employers and others. And they’ve worked with their colleges to say, this is what we’re looking for is support internships. So I know in Virginia that’s one organization that people in their state should look for. And if it doesn’t exist, create one.
[00:10:43] All right. Well, my story is of course also education related, but a little different. So we’re going to talk about the big apple New York city. It not only is the largest city in terms of population in the United States. It has the largest school population in [00:11:00] the country. Over 1 million students are enrolled in New York public schools and they have a new mayor.
[00:11:07] The new mayor. Pretty clear, Eric Adams, that is someone who benefited from public schools in New York city, but who had to be bused to another part of town to get a better education? He’s pretty clear. I like charter schools. He’s pretty
[00:11:21] Cass: clear that he likes public choice.
[00:11:23] GR: He’s pretty clear that education matters.
[00:11:25] Well, we talk about New York and one of the things we often don’t know about, or if we do, we don’t talk about is that New York city is under a mayoral control model. And when we talk about state takeovers, in fact, we’ve spoke, I guess the last two or three shows about Boston and the wonderful, paper you put together on.
[00:11:44] Receivership is a model as you know, where the state will come in and take control over different aspects of the school. When you look at 1989 and fast forward to today, the 60 plus takeovers that have taken place in the country have primarily [00:12:00] been state-driven takeover. Whether it’s in New Jersey, which Jersey city or Newark, but a smaller model is the mayoral control model.
[00:12:10] New York’s one of them. So in 2002, the legislature said, we’re going to put together a group. We’re going to get this passed. And guess what? You’re going to have the opportunity to do three things prior to mayoral control, New York was governed by get this 32 bulls. And they said we’re going to get rid of the boards.
[00:12:30] 32 boards. Yes. Is it, Hey, we’ll get rid of the 32 boards. We’re going to put together. What is in place now? A 15 member education policy. nine are appointed by the mayor, each borough president, he or she gets to appoint one member and then the, , local cops will get subpoint another. So that’s how you get your 15 members and through all of this plus with the mayor, you also choose a chancellor.
[00:12:55] So that’s, it’s been in place since 2002, but this June, [00:13:00] the 10 o’clock lock is going to run out for mural control. So, but let’s fit. Just got to do something. New York governor says, Hey, she wants to extend it. , , mayor Eric Adams said, guess what? Not only do I want to extend it, but I also want to go to Albany to lobby for it.
[00:13:15] , it’s been mixed in terms of the impact that mural control has had over your achievement. Have there been achievement gains? 2002. Absolutely. Have there been questions about equity that continue to grow? Absolutely. The charter schools in the city. That’s where you have a ton of growth, a ton of achievement who are working with low income, poor students, many of them, black and brown.
[00:13:36] So there are still some mixed feelings about the important, but here to takeaways. I think our listeners at least consider number one. You have mural control prior to that you had 32 school boards running the city. You go back to the late 1960s, early 1970s, you had the community control movement in New York city.
[00:13:55] Big, very controversial, way of trying to basically [00:14:00] families, going up against teacher unions, mostly the AMT. And at that time saying we want more control of our school. More control of our curriculum. Arts are the things we’ve heard here. There were planes that the push was moving toward black power.
[00:14:13] There were claims that it was being antisemitic and everything. Metal, but Diane Ravitch wrote a book on the New York school city wars, which even goes back further. So for the listeners, just something to ponder is New York city as a system, simply ungovernable, no matter what model you have, if student achievement and equity are the two criteria you use to determine success and failure.
[00:14:39] And number two, are we saying that locally elected. School board members simply can’t govern. And therefore we have to move away from one principle of American democracy, which is elections or elected board or these elected body, and simply allow the appointed model to work because we saw something [00:15:00] similar in Chicago.
[00:15:01] We saw something. So we’ll learn in Washington DC. So just two questions to ponder. What are your thoughts?
[00:15:07] Cara: I think it’s really fascinating. And I think one of the things, I mean, I can remember if you would’ve asked me 15 years ago. I think I would’ve said of course mayoral control is the way to go and that’s what needs to happen.
[00:15:19] And, you know, sweet, we’ve seen so many examples of school boards asleep at the wheel for lack of a better way of putting it. But in the same token, both Merrill control and elected school boards. Even if the mayor, is appointed to be the person who is running the schools by the state legislature, suffer from the same, you’re constantly changing over.
[00:15:41] So, new elections mean new policies, mean somebody trying to make their mark mean will the new person coming in, carry out the old policies that might have a chance to work. If we sustain them over the longterm states suffer. Two at a state level, you know, when you don’t have long-term stable [00:16:00] state leadership, but it’s a really, really interesting question, Gerard, and it’s a troubling one, I mean, 32 school boards, something, something can’t be right about that.
[00:16:09] there’s a lot of competing interests, but I also think, it’s interesting to think about this notion of if the mayor is the person who’s overseeing the schools and we get this critique, then that the community has no say in what’s going on in the community has no power. I often wonder how much power we really.
[00:16:30] I think we have when we’re vesting our trust in a local school board, especially when it comes to chronically underperforming systems. And I think that’s really the key here. Like in some places, school boards work really well. And we don’t need to think about these other things, but it’s in places where you have a chronically underperforming system.
[00:16:52] Quite frankly, I don’t know if either thing is the answer and. That’s just a longer show altogether. So I [00:17:00] don’t, I don’t know my friend, but it’s a, really fascinating issue and something that, know we’re thinking about a lot here in Boston. Hence I wrote the paper that you referenced on receivership because we’ve been under mural control for quite some time.
[00:17:13] and at the end of the day, I’m not sure that the current mayor is going to do a darn thing about the, dismal state of BPS, for example, and that’s happening all over the county. All right, Gerard will coming up after this. We have got, a guest that I think is going to tell you a lot about why exactly you should be watching star wars, or I might be sorely mistaken.
[00:17:37] We’re going to be bringing on in just a moment. Professor Cass Sunstein. He is the Robert Wamsley university professor at Harvard law school and the author of the New York times bestselling book, the world, according to star wars. Get excited.
[00:17:52] We’ll be back in just a minute.[00:18:00] [00:19:00]
[00:19:05] Cara: Learning curve listeners, please help us welcome professor Cass Sunstein. He is the Robert Walmsley university professor at Harvard, where he is founder and director of the program on behavior economics and public health. He is the most cited law professor in the United States and likely internationally.
[00:19:22] He has served as administrator of the white house office of information and regulatory affairs. And as a member of the president’s review group on intelligence and communication technologies, he is the winner of the 2018 Hulbert prize. His many books include the best seller nudge, improving decisions about health, wealth, and happiness book.
[00:19:41] Simpler the future of government, hashtag Republic divided democracy in the age of social media. Oh my goodness. And of course the New York times bestseller Gerard Robinson’s favorite the world, according to star wars, a frequent advisor to governments all over the world. Professor [00:20:00] Cass, Sunstein. Welcome to the learning.
[00:20:02] Cass: Thank you so much for having
[00:20:03] Cara: me. We’re really happy to have you. So quite a bio there and you are here locally at Harvard. We’re happy to have you. I, myself am recording from Massachusetts. your bio says it all. You are an internationally recognized legal scholar and have been advisor to presidents and other heads of states.
[00:20:22] we want to know about this recent bestseller, the world, according to star wars. Could you tell us about it and talk about why is it, I guess it has been 45 years. Wow. And I remembered them all because I was alive for all of those years. talk about how, why after 45 years these movies, why are. Still watching star wars after all this time.
[00:20:43] but your organisms, , we should say,
[00:20:44] Cass: well, that was actually the question that inspired me to do the book. What is it about star wars that resonates and has kept people interested in sometimes obsessed for all this time? I think there are a couple of things. One [00:21:00] is about freedom of choice. And so the great George Lucas’ trilogy, the original one was focused on the fact that.
[00:21:08] All of us, whether we are Skywalkers or not, encounter times when we can do something. good or not, or kind of grave or not. And that connects with everybody. there’s also a theme about redemption that, even if we did something wrong, maybe really wrong, maybe a little bit wrong, we can do something, right.
[00:21:32] We might be able to make the wrong. Well, we might be able to do something that in our own life history makes us feel that some sort of balance was corrected a balance in the force. If the worst person in the galaxy that is antiquing by Walker at our theater, give or take an emperor. And in his closing moment, turn to good and repudiate his life’s horribleness and save [00:22:00] his son.
[00:22:00] Well, then the rest of us can maybe do something, not quite like that, but something positive. Also there’s a theme in the movie about parents and kids, whether you’re the kid or the parent, the parent will lay down his or her life for you in all probability. Even if the parent isn’t perfect and the kid will kind of do the same and that connects maybe with some of our group that’s, feelings and that’s kind of good.
[00:22:30] Also the movies are really fun and some of their giddiness is contagious. Even if the visitation really, forgive me. Mr. Lupus, occasionally.
[00:22:44] Cara: do have a favorite. What’s your favorite?
[00:22:49] Cass: The empire strikes back is the best.
[00:22:53] Cara: Oh, of course. It’s the best. I couldn’t agree more.
[00:22:56] Cass: That’s the best of the now 6,000 movies.
[00:22:59] [00:23:00] That’s probably the best movie ever made. It’s incredible. It’s ranked in the Shakespeare, maybe about Shakespeare. Okay. I’m exaggerating the empire. I think it’s really, really good. Well,
[00:23:10] Cara: unfortunately I think a lot of Americans might actually recognize lines from the empire strikes back, but not Shakespeare.
[00:23:16] So we will, take what we can get. I could ask you more questions such as who is your favorite character, but I think that we should probably, we should probably move on. So you talked about , the cultural reasons, the human reasons, maybe why we identify. Star wars, but can you talk a little bit about, I mean, this movie was really going to be a flop , people didn’t believe in 1977, that this was going to have, nobody could have predicted it would be the pop culture phenomenon that it continues to be.
[00:23:47] in 2020, the estimated value of the franchise was $70 billion. What is it about the cinematic force that is star wars? What is it about, I mean, if you compare. Viewing, for [00:24:00] example, the empire strikes back today, versus when we were children, it’s obviously a different cinematic experience. what was it at the beginning that grabbed us, even when we didn’t have the technology to make space look believable and what continues to grab us as the franchise grows.
[00:24:17] Cass: Okay. So it’s a fantastic question. So, in terms of the shocking success of star wars, let’s try. Three hypotheses about amazingness, and forgive me for venturing hypotheses, but let’s, go for that. Number one, is it fit with the times that in a time of turmoil and upheaval to have something so joyful , and was that was gonna work?
[00:24:44] that’s the one, the number two, is it. , really lucky and theme three was then it’s cinematically and otherwise, so incredible destined for success. okay. On the first fitting with the times, you get [00:25:00] to your question about the experience of star wars. Really soon, say box on that house, that that hypothesis could be ventured for anything that’s exceeded.
[00:25:11] Taylor swift Harry Potter, prob Joe Biden, everything there’s nothing. And, maybe, but, good luck proving it. in terms of amazingness, I think the movie, the original, what is now called the news. Wasn’t it. And so that’s definitely part of the picture, so to speak. And I remember I saw it in real time and just it’s visually, even now I think less so than at the time.
[00:25:41] so spectacular, nothing people had ever seen before. So in the first scenes you see ships and they look real. Knows what looking real would even be like the human eye thinks that looks real and the motion of the ship, the big shift going over the old ship just seems. [00:26:00] So people never seen anything like that before.
[00:26:03] And even the letters as the plot is, started. Uh, people hadn’t really seen that in this spectacular setting before. And so it was kind of the best imaginable overload that you could see. And then the characters were even early, really iconic. There’s Luke Skywalker, the kind of kid. at least boys, maybe girls also identify all like unaffected as kind of normal life.
[00:26:31] And then you’re called by something greater than you could imagine when you succeed. And princess Leia, who is the bravest and smartest of the wall. Feminist icon who never loses her wets. And, it’s the only one that really knows completely what she’s doing. And then there’s the near be well, non solo who, boys kind of aspired to be.
[00:26:53] Cause he was the coolest. And then there’s the best father you could imagine. It also turns out to be magical. [00:27:00] So the cinematic amazingness plus. Iconic figures who are based on, in some sense in Chris’s amazing unconscious, narratives that go back to the Bible and the Homer and the, he connected all of them with some of that.
[00:27:16] the law hypothesis, which is the most deflating I think has true. Not that it diminishes the amazingness of the visual and the amazingness of the characters and the largeness of the plots, or the fact that the themes about redemption and freedom of choice and the struggle between good and evil.
[00:27:38] These are, humanity’s biggest themes are in a package that you’re eating popcorn. In the midst of, and did that? that’s simple, but it did get the benefit of lock. That is, it got a lot of early popularity. It got some great, very public, , reviews. and, to say that it’s amazing, this was [00:28:00] enough to make it a comic.
[00:28:01] there are no that needed to act hit, some streets in a way. That kind of corresponds to what happened with Beatles. What happened with Taylor swift for app and Elvis Presley were happening to great. And all of the ones I just mentioned are fantastic. and choose your pickup, make it, make a pick about who’s the most fantastic, but there are plenty of fantastic things that you’ve never heard of because they didn’t get the benefit.
[00:28:25] And the book tries to tell the tale of the kind of serendipity that turns star wars from not merely an amazing achievement, but a , , culturally central financial.
[00:28:37] Cara: Yeah, never thought I would hear Taylor swift discussed in the same sentences with star wars, but I get it. , and I appreciate it.
[00:28:43] And I have to say, thinking about those scrolling words. , at the beginning I took my eight year old son that summer to see empire strikes back and a drive-thru movie. And he was mesmerized. He thought it, you know, it didn’t look. Nearly as technologically impressive to him as it did to me when I [00:29:00] was, seeing that movie as a kid, but Boyle boy, he thought that was pretty neat.
[00:29:04] And how many Halloweens did I dress up as princess Leia? I can’t even count. in your book, you talk about the gray. The Campbell, he’s author of the 1949 books, the hero with a thousand faces and he called George Lucas. Obviously the man behind star wars. He said that he was Campbell said that Lucas was his greatest student.
[00:29:26] Campbell tells us so much about myths and legends and adventures. What is it about star wars and the lessons about the hero’s journey? that Campbell talks about. can you help us understand that? Yeah.
[00:29:41] Cass: Link, this was greatly influenced by Joseph Campbell. So if you take, the hero in meth or religion or Marvel comics or DC comics, it often has exactly the same central narrative ingredients.
[00:29:57] So it might be in. [00:30:00] a simple version of what Campbell elaborates in detail, there’s someone, who is, having a normal life and is young, who is called to, action or ordeal. Achievement by someone who is a parental figure and that person is large and important. And the person initially says, no, I’m not going to do that.
[00:30:27] And haven’t we all at one point, let’s say between the age of 10 and 20. , maybe between the age of 10 and 70 said, no, I’m going to do that. so it really resonates. But then at some points there’s some loss or some event, which makes the person to the hero say, okay, I’m with you. I’m going to try.
[00:30:48] And then the person faces a terrible ordeal and is tested, might in the process, lose the elder sponsor. Let’s call it like Obi wan Kenobi or Mike in the process. Be [00:31:00] injured or hurt in some way, but faces tragedy and difficulty and maybe fails. Then the person in the midst of the ordeal and the trial, overcoming.
[00:31:12] And succeeds. And I’m thinking now kind of, of Jessica Jones, there was a great TV series about Jessica Jones, which is really tracking, , the hero of a thousand faces. And then, uh, becomes transfigured in some sense and enlarge and either returns home or returns to some, role, which partakes of home in some way, some piece of the place where hero resides is home.
[00:31:40] And these various steps are traced, in the air of a thousand faces by Joseph Campbell in great detail. And. the Star Wars films really track that. In fact, what makes it amazing is that they’re tracked both for Anaconda and for loop in their different ways. And the[00:32:00] underrated prequels, I say with, fear, uncertainty.
[00:32:04] I’m going to go for it. The underrated prequels have the hero’s journey for Anakin and. No, they’re not perfect. Movies in charge are banks, maybe not the best, but it really is the hero’s journey. And I can, ends up by the end of the second trilogy tracking something like what Joseph Campbell had in mind.
[00:32:24] GR: So I’d like to shift us into a conversation about civics. So when the war between the democratic ideas of the galactic Republic, and then you have the autocratic dictatorship of the galactic empire. It frames a larger political narrative about star wars. In your book, you discuss Jedi Knights as Jeffersonian style guardians of the Republic, defenders of an ordered Liberty and rebels against Imperial tyranny.
[00:32:51] Could you explain how all of that falls into a larger, civic educational lesson that we today could learn from
[00:32:58] Cass: completely? [00:33:00] So take at the human level. As opposed to the political level, star wars to be about freedom of choice under conditions of uncertainty. And that’s, it’s theme for Luke and for Annika and for Leah and for obiwan.
[00:33:18] , and basically everybody. That we have freedom and difficult to see the future is, as Yoda says. so there Lucas plays brilliantly with the theme of destiny and, , pre-ordained stuff, but in the end, the movies reject that and it’s all about, you got to choose. And Lucas’s incredibly articulate and moving about this as are some of his collaborators where each of us, like today, we have a choice to make about whether to be kind or not whether to be, disrespectful or not, whether to be.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] The hero a little bit in the eyes of at least someone or at least a frat and that’s everywhere. So that’s the micro level to your point at the political level. Lucas does exactly the same thing and the beating heart of democracy as he sees it is of freedom of choice. And self-government, by those who are.
[00:34:21] populating a nation or a galaxy or a planet that it can be us and our choice where we go, or we can basically, be cowed or recede and let, freedom die, to thunderous applause as the underrated prequels describe. And Lucas had very much in mind, especially in the prequels, but it’s also there.
[00:34:45] And the original trilogy, the rise of authoritarianism and he had a sense of its seductive appeal. both it’s in some ways erotic appeal. That’s one of the creepy, really good [00:35:00] features of the first six movies and also it’s, appeal to the human spirit. Some of which says, , you figure.
[00:35:09] Freedom is, it’s tough to bear. And also I’m kind of mad and I want you to punish maybe people who are my fellow citizens, but certainly to keep me safe. that play between the individual level freedom and the political level freedom is what makes , these movies, which seem really fun. also.
[00:35:31] GR: George Lucas has called star wars. The tragedy of Darth Vader. Would you talk about the rise, fall or redemption of Skywalker from gifted slave and Jedi Knight to a character whose fear pain and anger turned him into a dehumanized mechanism of evil before finally being saved by his son.
[00:35:52] Cass: Yeah, that’s fantastic.
[00:35:53] Thank you. So the fact that Lucas called it the tragedy of Darth Vader, I think that’s [00:36:00] very, actually very moving. And if you saw the original movie, that is, new hope who would have thought. But that’s what the whole thing would be about. So Darth Vader is mannequin Skywalker with a little boy. who’s taken care of by his beloved mother.
[00:36:18] he suffers, excruciating loss that is of his mother at the hands of evil. Thinks he’s going to suffer or it’s not for the loss of his beloved and it’s fear of loss as you say, that turns him and the emperor. I think in a way, the personification of something that hits all of us, in life at some point, which is a lack of control.
[00:36:44] And vulnerability to the loss of what mysterious to us and how do you respond to that? And you can respond to that by, , making common cause with others who are mortal and at risk and [00:37:00] accepting your own vulnerability. Or you can put on some kind of armor and try to. destroy others who are maybe, threatening people you care about, or just in the way.
[00:37:13] And so when Antigone Skywalker becomes Darth Vader, at the moment of choice, it’s the fear of loss that, pushes him and the emperor plays on that pushes him to evil. And any of us who’s felt rage or maybe has, actually. At some point almost hitched or actually hit someone or imagined it, maybe that’s starts the Darth Vader at us.
[00:37:39] So the idea that, that is in each of us as is good, is, not false and how we react to our deepest vulnerability is what makes for. the generality let’s call out of the tragedy of Darth Vader and what I may be loved most of all [00:38:00] about the star wars movies, the original six is that, the third of the prequels, the last scene.
[00:38:07] Play exactly the same as the third of the original trilogy, where in the third of the prequels and akin, isn’t exactly the same situation that we had previously seen Luke with the same person, the emperor. And in both cases, they are, as you say, struggling with the prospect of the loss of what they care about most , their own vulnerability and the vulnerability they care about.
[00:38:32] And. And a can chooses to go to the emperor and Luke chooses not to, partly because he trusts and loves his father and it can didn’t have that.
[00:38:44] GR: So this is the only person on this call who hasn’t seen star wars, even I’ve heard the term, the force, and we know it as a supernatural energy bonding to the galaxy, but it also.
[00:38:57] both good and evil characters, [00:39:00] it So an aspect of it that looks at spiritual strengths and extra ordinary deeds. Could you talk to us about the varied mythical, and philosophical origins of the forest and how star wars was able to bring that together? in a science fiction movie, that’s often better known for technology spaceships and
[00:39:18] Cass: Yeah, thanks for that. So, I’ll tell you a story. So the one person I was terrified of, reading my book was George Lucas. I knew him a tiny, tiny bed and never talked to him about the book and the writing. And after I wrote it, I saw him at a huge party. And he came up to me and I was hoping that behind me was Harrison Ford or someone that his movies, but sure enough, he was coming up to me and he said, he read my book and he actually liked it.
[00:39:53] And I got to spend a lot of time with him and he gave me a book. In which he signed it. May the force be [00:40:00] with you. And I can’t tell you how much I love that because George Lucas has no errors. There’s nothing fake about him. I’m sure he’s signed 10,000 books. May the force be with you? And he didn’t say, you know, Cass, I liked your book.
[00:40:15] You did a good job. He said, may the force we went here. I thought there was a beauty in the robustness of that, but also for the. 10,000 times he signed it. He meant it every time. I’m confident. , , the force, has deliberate mystery in it. As you say, it’s the opposite of technology. It’s old rather than new and it’s as the mythology of star wars described.
[00:40:40] It’s a force that connects all of us, and whatever your religious convictions may be. We can see that as in some sense, true. If you meet a stranger, there’s something that’s passing between you and that person. , what it is. No, one’s in one sentence it’s [00:41:00] wildly mysterious. And another sense it’s kind of very Monday night.
[00:41:04] they to understand the brain can explain it in either case it’s really cool. And that, that force, when you meet a stranger or someone, who’s a friend and there’s interaction that is warm and mutually supportive, and that is binding. but also if you meet a stranger or maybe a friend, there’s something in there, that’s a little edgy and maybe scared and that’s there.
[00:41:32] So, you can take it as a myth, but you can also take it as a play on what human life is actually like.
[00:41:40] Cara: Well, professor Cass, Sunstein, thank you so much for joining us today. it’s been a real pleasure, , thinking about star wars , and learning about exactly why, our society loves this franchise so much.
[00:41:52] And think that tomorrow, We’re going to get them to watch. we’re going to work on it. Thanks for your time today. And please take good
[00:41:58] Cass: care of, thank you [00:42:00] so much. It was a great pleasure for me and to you may the force, as they say with you, I was
[00:42:06] hoping you
[00:42:07] Cara: would say that may the force be with you too?
[00:42:09] Professor
[00:42:10] take care.[00:43:00] [00:44:00]
[00:44:29] Cara: As always, we’re going to end with our tweet of the week, this one from education week and the headline is students are behaving badly in class. Excessive screen time may be to blame. So after reading the article linked to this tweet, which points to consequences of certain types of screen time, I think it’s important to point out such as, , teachers reporting that students who have excessive screen time, especially those who are doing things like being on social media or doing non-educational [00:45:00] things on their tablets, computers, other than.
[00:45:03] I was showing an increased, inability to manage stress. obviously, anybody who ever takes their iPhone to bed knows that screen time can interfere with your sleep. , and in that students just generally, have a hard time paying attention. In fact, the article says that the research suggests that some students might be misidentified as having, for example, attention deficit disorder.
[00:45:24] When really, if they’d would just cut back on some of their screen time, especially unproductive screen time, it would be a benefit. Yeah. Sounded to find out that your average American eight to 12 year old is watching, I think between five and eight hours a day on their screens. And that does not include what they’re doing at school on screens, which really blew my mind.
[00:45:43] two things it made me simultaneously think. Thank goodness. I don’t think my kids are in their screens that often, but also maybe my kids should just not be on their. Outside of educational materials at all, except for the occasional Celtics game, which I feel like I cannot deprive [00:46:00] my children of so Gerard, we’re going to be back together again next week.
[00:46:06] And please listeners, don’t forget to join us next week. We are going to be talking to professor Nicholas Lemann, former Dean of Columbia university, school of journalism as always. It’ll be a great one Gerard until then. We’ll be waiting to hear if you watch star. And you have a good
[00:46:22] GR: one. May the force be with
[00:46:24] Cara: you always, may the force be with you?
[00:46:26] My friend.[00:47:00] [00:48:00]
Recent Episodes:
In Massachusetts, the Know-Nothing amendments prevent more than 100,000 urban families with children in chronically underperforming school districts from receiving scholarship vouchers that would allow them access to additional educational alternatives. These legal barriers, also known as Blaine amendments, restrict government funding from flowing to religiously affiliated organizations in nearly 40 states and are a violation of the first and fourteenth amendments.
The U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case this year, Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue, that could end these amendments. In 2018, Pioneer produced a 30-minute documentary on the impact of the Blaine amendments on families in Massachusetts, Georgia, and Michigan.
“She’s a good girl. She helps me a lot. She has big, big dreams. I don’t have the money, but she has big dreams. I hope she’s going to get everything, but she works so hard. She works so hard in school.”
“Our family is needing to make some really big sacrifices because we believe this is important, and so, we’re basically going to do whatever it takes… Sometimes we look at each other and go ‘I don’t know if I can do it again another month…’”
“A lot of the families have to sacrifice and work multiple jobs… And just scraping together enough money to just make tuition, just the basics.”
“It is discriminatory, that parents who want to choose an alternative to public school for their children, would not in any way receive any compensation for that, whether it be tax credit, whether it be a voucher…”
In the 1840s, nativist movement leaders formed official political parties and local chapters of the national Native American Party (later the American Party), although they continued to be commonly known as the Know-Nothing Party. Politicians sought to insert provisions into state constitutions against Catholics who refused to renounce the pope. The Know-Nothing movement brought bigotry and hatred to a new level of violence and organization.
The party’s legacy endured in the post-Civil War era, with laws and constitutional amendments it supported, still today severely limiting parents’ educational choices. A federal constitutional amendment was proposed by Speaker of the House James Blaine prohibiting money raised by taxation in any State to be under the control of any religious sect; nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided between religious sects or denominations. These were then named the Blaine Amendments of 1875.
in recent decades, often in response to challenges to school choice programs, the U.S. Supreme Court has demonstrated great interest in examining the issues of educational alternatives and attempts limit parental options. Massachusetts plays a key role in this debate. The Bay State was a key center of the Know-Nothing movement and has the oldest version of Anti-Aid Amendments in the nation, as well as a second such amendment approved in 1917. Two-fifths of Massachusetts residents are Catholic, and its Catholic schools outperform the state’s public schools, which are the best in the nation.
Help families like the Costons in Michigan to end the bigoted Blaine amendments in their state that are blocking tuition scholarships and other types of financial support that would make it possible for families to send their children to high-quality schools that are best suited for their children.
[ytp_video source=”uN8dMHYzofA”]
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“Barely half of students (53 percent) graduate from BPS high schools, excluding the exam schools,” Pioneer Institute Executive Director Jim Stergios underscores at the start of this Open Letter to Boston Mayor Michelle Wu.
That’s just one in a long litany of troubles within the Boston Public Schools, much of which is due to chaotic management and at times even willful misleading of the public.
In this letter, Pioneer recommends fresh thinking, and, specifically, a highly focused and time-limited intervention, in partnership with the state department of education.
Related Content:
This week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with Jackie Krick, immigrant from Colombia and founder, president and CEO of ECU Communications in Manassas, Virginia. They discuss the entrepreneurial spirit of the newest Americans – immigrants – and why they are twice as likely to start a business and create jobs. For Jackie, it took a few tries, but she learned the system, used available resources, and today, she runs a successful digital communications and cross-cultural services agency focused largely on federal contracts. She started an award-winning nonprofit called Impacto Youth to give underserved teens access to education and skills training. And she cofounded Centerfuse, a coworking space for microentrepreneurs to discover, learn, train and be mentored by successful business owners like her, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.
Guest:
A native of Colombia, South America, Jackie Krick is a marketing and advertising professional and an entrepreneur advocate of women-owned businesses, and youth leadership. As President and Founder of ECU Communications (ECU), a full-service digital marketing communications agency in Manassas, VA, she brings a three-decade career in providing award-winning marketing, advertising, strategic planning services to a diverse base of notable federal, state & local government, nonprofit and private sector clients. Jackie’s work in the field of marketing began before she founded ECU Communications in 2004. Earlier, in the role of Vice President of Marketing for a government contractor, she led the company to significant multimillion dollar advertising contracts. In addition, she previously held other marketing-related positions in support of information technology services for hardware, software and networking solutions as Director of Marketing, and Channel Marketing Manager. Jackie is also a partner of CenterFuse, a cowork space downtown Historic Manassas that supports growth and development of entrepreneurs, solopreneurs and emerging ventures that need a fully equipped space to do business, attend workshops, network and grow. Jackie focuses her special attention in support of underserved charitable interests, both in Northern Virginia and nationally. Her desire to continually give back to the community, led her to establish IMPACTO Youth, a 501c3 organization, in 2013, with the mission to “shape, advance and improve the lives of economically and socially disadvantaged youth through education.”
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Denzil Mohammed:
I’m Denzil Mohammed and welcome to Jobmakers.
Denzil Mohammed:
Arguably entrepreneurship is what sets the United States apart from the rest of the world it’s made by and for entrepreneurs. And it is uniquely suited to capitalize on the entrepreneurial spirit of its newest Americans immigrants. That’s a big part of the reason why immigrants are twice as likely to start a business and create jobs for Jackie Krick immigrant, from Colombia and founder, president and CEO of ECU communications in Manassas, Virginia. It took a few tries, but she learned the system and used the resources available to her available to all Americans. Today. She runs a successful digital communications and cross-cultural services agency focused ly on federal contracts. However, Jackie takes that love of entrepreneurship further. She started an award-winning nonprofit called impact to youth to give underserved teens access to education and skills training, and she co-founded CenterFuse a co-working space for micro entrepreneurs to discover, learn, train, and be mentored by successful business winners like Jackie, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers,
Denzil Mohammed:
Jackie Krick, founder, president and CEO of ECU communications in Manasas Virginia. Welcome to the Jobmakers podcast. How are you?
Jackie Krick:
Thank you, Denzil. I’m doing great. Happy to be here.
Denzil Mohammed:
So tell us a little bit about your business and why it’s special.
Jackie Krick:
ECU communications is a leading woman known small business. We’re a full agency specializing in digital communications in cross and cross cultural services. We were founded 18 years ago. We celebrated our 18th anniversary in, at the end of April. So we’re very, very proud of the accomplishments that we’ve done today ECU communications services clients across the us, and we provide a multitude of digital communication services, including branding media website development, app development, all types of communications, very proud to be part of the organization,
Denzil Mohammed:
Even coming up with taglines and slogans for businesses. I know. And you’ve, you have a range of very different, very diverse clients, right from the government to the private sector to nonprofits. Is that correct?
Jackie Krick:
That is correct. Our primary market is the federal government. That’s when ECU was founded, we started with servicing the federal government. We became eight, a certified in the, in the SME small business administration. It’s a certification for nine years and we successfully graduated from that in 2015. So we’ve serviced the federal government for all these years. And along the way, we’ve expanded our services to nonprofit organizations, stayed in local organizations and also the private sector, which is a growing area of interest right now,
Denzil Mohammed:
Really. But did you always want or expect to be a business owner?
Jackie Krick:
That’s
Denzil Mohammed:
Was that in the cards?
Jackie Krick:
Interesting question. I, I, I think I grew into that.
Jackie Krick:
Hmm. So I started working you know, my first jobs were just you know, normal jobs and but I was, I always felt that I wasn’t really happy in the role that I was. I always felt that I could do things a little bit better in my way, obviously a little bit faster. And I felt myself pulling out of the, the everyday kind of activities to, to want to be more in command of the things that I wanted done. So I, I think over the years I did fall into that role to say that I woke up one day and I wanted to be a business owner, maybe not so much, but I’m very happy with the decision that I made.
Denzil Mohammed:
I think you should be very happy with your decision. It’s been such a success. So a lot of Americans don’t know what it’s like growing up in other countries, particularly south American countries, developing countries. And you yourself have a really diverse background stressing from France to Chile, to Bolivia take us back to let’s say your grandfather and bring it up to today, up with you in Manassas.
Jackie Krick:
So my grandmother, my grandfather was French. He was, his family was a hundred percent French. They migrated to Columbia and that’s where he was born. He and 13 other brothers and sisters, when the oldest kids became eligible for the military, they went back to France. And so my grandfather was one of that first batch of kids that were born, went to the military in France. And when he was done, he decided to go back to Columbia to see the country where he was born. And of course he met, my grandmother fell in love and married, and they had five children. One of ’em was my, my mother moving forward. My mom was an adult. She fell in love with a Jillian man.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
He, he had traveled to Colombia and fell in love, got married. <Affirmative> my oldest brother was born in Chile. I’m sorry. My oldest brother was born in Colombia. And then she went to live in Chile for a few years where my two other brothers were born and then they went back to Colombia where I was born. So I’m the youngest, the only girl and well, I’m the baby. Of course, baby. Not a spoil one though.
Denzil Mohammed:
And then your stepfather came on the scene and he was American.
Jackie Krick:
Correct? my stepfather, my mom met my stepfather when I was nine years old. They got married. He was in Columbia doing a mission with the department of state and was there for a few years. At age 15, he was transferred when I was at 15. We got news that he was getting transferred to Bolivia. So we all moved my mom and my brothers and I, and my stepfather moved to Bolivia for six years. And that’s where we basically lived. I loved Bolivia, wonderful place, beautiful people. The indigenous people were amazing, the food, everything else. I hold Bolivia very dear in my heart.
Denzil Mohammed:
And so you moved at 15 and then you moved again when you were 21, when your stepfathers transferred back to the us, right?
Jackie Krick:
Yes.
Denzil Mohammed:
And what was that experience like moving to the United States of America?
Jackie Krick:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
So through those years we had visited the United States and we knew what it was like and, and spoke English. But I can tell you that nothing can prepare, would prepare me to come and live here. It was very different when you are visiting one location is one thing when you’re living and working and, you know doing your daily activities is completely, completely different. So it took, it took getting used to it. It took, even though I spoke English, it took getting your ear accustomed to everybody speaking English to you all the time. The way of life was completely different. So it, it really, it was a hard thing for me. I, I remember going to sleep and really crying myself to sleep sometimes, really just because I, I was in a very different environment. I was living with my brother and his wife away from home for the first time and moving into a world of, you know, working and just being an adult,
Denzil Mohammed:
Navigating the system.
Jackie Krick:
Yeah. Very, very different. So it took me a little while, but eventually I, you know, I, I surpassed that and here I am. So
Denzil Mohammed:
We, we talked about your business a little bit earlier, and we’re gonna talk about a little bit more that you started in 2004 ECU communications, but you sort of started your own business at way back in 1990. Didn’t you, you went off on your own doing graphic design, right? Yes. What was, what was that like, tell us why you ended up having to close it. And what lessons did you think you learned from that experience?
Jackie Krick:
I started it because I, again, I wanted to do something on my own. I really felt empowered to try something new that I could drive on my own and make something out of it. The reason I closed it quite honestly, I went through a divorce and it became really hard because I’ll, I’ll tell you in a minute what lessons I learned, but it became really hard for me to be the one going out, looking for work and then coming back and doing the work. So I was an organization of one person, which very difficult to do. You, you cannot be all to everything and do every other work. So it was very difficult. I eventually decided to just fold the business and, and get myself employed again. It was very hard decision. I can tell you that I, I didn’t wanna do it, but I had some of the lessons that I learned definitely is that you need to, if you want to grow your business, you cannot do it alone.
Jackie Krick:
You need to find the people that can help you, the great talent that can help you. You have to have that collaboration and you have to have the, the right the right tools and depending how big you wanna be. Right. obviously I learned a tremendous amount of lessons during that time, because the second time around when I started ECU, I knew it in my mind that I wanted to do something completely different and that I could not be the lead. I could not be the graphic designer. I could not be the writer. And also the business development. When you start a business, you do wear a lot of hats, but you cannot do that constantly because that will never get you to the next level.
Denzil Mohammed:
And you’re also the janitor and you’re also the technician and you’re also the driver. Let’s not forget those things.
Jackie Krick:
That’s right. <Laugh>
Denzil Mohammed:
Your current business, which you started in 2004 is now flourishing. Take us through the different steps and stages of how you grew that business.
Jackie Krick:
Well, one of the things that I learned when I went back and got myself employed again, right. It was working with a, in the it sector, but always doing marketing and advertising and they were doing government contracting. So I learned how to work in that environment. I learned a lot about contracts in managing contracts, although I was not doing that, but I learned a lot about that. And so that gave me the ability to say, you know, here’s an opportunity. The government does a lot of business with a variety of sizes of business. Like you have the small businesses, the, the large businesses, the eight, eight businesses. And so I saw an opportunity there to really get started as a, as a small business first and then apply for the eight a certification, which it’s a, it’s a certification for specific folks.
Jackie Krick:
So, you know, being a Hispanic woman, I definitely was want to be able to get that certification because of who I was. And I knew that with the broad range of competitors, that there are out there having the access to a smaller pool of opportunities would definitely help my business grow up. So I went after that application. And then after that, I started going after the government contracts, it took me a while. It, it really did. You really need to know and have access to a lot of different tools. So if I had to do it all over again, I probably change it up a little bit, but you know, those are the things that you learned along the way, right? And, and now I love to help others and tell others, you know, how they can do it too, because it’s not it, it it’s, you have to try certain things before you can really get that, that the right path. I would’ve waited a little bit longer before getting my Aday certification. I would’ve waited until I had a, a larger base of business. If you know, the Aday certification is only nine years. Once you get it, you get into it nine years, go by and you’re out. So,
Denzil Mohammed:
And just for, for listeners who may not be familiar with it, could you just describe it a little bit?
Jackie Krick:
So the a a is a small business administration program to help underserved people from countries like Hispanics, African Americans, Asians, they can apply to become ADA certified. And what happens is that the government agencies, they set aside a portion of their purchasing contracts of their contracts. They set ’em aside as a, a, a, that means that the, the pool of competitors can only be a, a so that you have a, a bigger opportunity to have access to those contracts.
Denzil Mohammed:
So you found the opportunities and you went after them. That’s, that’s what a business owner does. And, but you spoke a little bit about creating opportunities for others and sort of letting other people, other, probably BU budding business owners know the kind of knowledge and background that you now have. First off, I wanna bring up impact to youth. This is where you want to create opportunities for young people to learn and develop their skills. And, you know, they come from vulnerable communities. And you, you said once I heard you say that this was your real passion. Can you describe this a little bit for me and why you decided to do this?
Jackie Krick:
Yes. So I think that everybody has such great potential to do something with themselves, but it really all depends on the path that they get on. And the reason why impact a youth was founded was to give so many kids, young, young adults, young kids opportunities to dream. My mother used to always say, you know, when you dream high, you need to dream higher because chances are, you’re going to get to a certain point, maybe not as high as you’re dreaming. So I wanna give kids the opportunity to dream as high as they can, and be able to get more than what they think that they can get, you know,
Denzil Mohammed:
More than what they were born into, I guess.
Jackie Krick:
That’s right. That’s right. So the other thing that I believe is that when you give those opportunities to young people, you’re teaching them something, found with a, a great foundation. You’re teaching them that, you know, they’re able to go and do things on their own that they’re capable of being self providers. And that’s really what I, what I want to teach them to go out, be self providers help yourselves learn and accomplish a lot of great things, because that’s the greatest feeling when you, when you go and get it yourself, rather than, you know, be there waiting for something, somebody to give it to you.
Denzil Mohammed:
Does any particular young person come to mind when you think of the program?
Jackie Krick:
We’ve done impact to youth academy, where we brought in kids from the high schools around here and mentor them through soft skills and career planning and things like that. And some kids came back to me and said, you know, everything we learned there we’ve, we’ve, we’ve applied. And so some kids were starting their, their careers as entrepreneurs and learning new things. It it’s really, it touches me a lot. It really does. The one thing that I did learn is that we need to start younger, not just high school kids, because when you’re in high school, you’re already, it’s kind of too late. So we are learning that we need to start more in the middle, middle school to really touch the kids and really get them interested in into thinking about it could be a career. It could be an entrepreneur. It, doesn’t not, everybody’s made to be a, a business owner and not everybody’s made to have a four year degree. You know, there’s other things that kids can do as long as they’re willing to learn something. That to me is the basic thing.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
I get very passionate about that.
Denzil Mohammed:
I can, I can tell but what was the main driving force for you to do this?
Jackie Krick:
Yeah, I wanna give back to the community. I, I, I wanted to share some of the success that I’ve had with the community. I, I wanted to give something to the young kids to help ’em
Denzil Mohammed:
And you’re also helping budding entrepreneurs, because I know that you have a, a relationship with the city of Manassas, and there’s a co-working space that I guess, incubates budding entrepreneurs who may wanna start their business. Can you describe that for me?
Jackie Krick:
So about five years ago, we engaged. I’m a, I’m a, a co-founder one founder, one of four, and we engaged in a private partner, private public partnership with the city of Manassas to open up a coworking space here in the city. And the idea is to help entrepreneurs micro, tiny little companies come and have a place where they can discover new potentials for opportunities to grow for training. We have the SD B C here. I think they come to the office maybe two times a week, and they meet with businesses that either are starting their businesses, or they already are, have been founded, but they need more guidance and more mentorship. So we do that through, through the SD B C and then it’s very economical. It’s only like 10, $10 in a day that they can come here and they can have access to all their resources. You know, a table networking, they can print materials, they can also meet other like-minded individuals that where they can, you know, engage and, and have new business opportunities. And that actually has happened a lot here. So very interested and very engaging. I love everything about growth and entrepreneurship and being able to connect with others. That’s what cent fused us.
Denzil Mohammed:
It’s almost like you’ve come full circle since you first moved to the us and would cry yourself to sleep. And now you’re actually actively giving back to other people, other young people probably from immigrant families as well, vulnerable families, too. Which is really, really very cool, which brings it to my last question, which is the United States has allowed you to thrive and be successful. Maybe it took a couple tries, but you got there. And you, I’m sure you’re still dreaming higher and higher. How do you feel about the United States as a place that allowed you to succeed as a woman, as an entrepreneur, as someone who has dreams,
Jackie Krick:
I love this country. Hmm. I love it. I, I really think that it’s all inside of you and I, I really, I am a force inside of me that really wanted to push forward just who I am. And I am so glad and thankful and appreciative of the United States in, in the ways that yes, we have a long way to go in so many things. Right. But I had the opportunity to do it. And that, I mean, opening a new business here is as easy as going and getting a license for your business.
Jackie Krick:
Mm. Obviously that’s not something I would recommend because you need to know a little bit more than just that. But what I’m saying is there are so many things that facilitate you doing something. And if you put yourself into it every single day and you dedicate and you believe what you’re gonna do, and you have a computer or you have, you know, get and go talk to people, it is so much easier to do business here in Columbia, maybe other countries too, when you reach a certain age, you pretty old and there’s no more work. There’s no more opportunities in the United States. You have limitless opportunities where you can work and you can start your business, even when you’re a senior citizen. It’s amazing. I love it.
Denzil Mohammed:
It’s almost as though it’s built to foster entrepreneurship, right.
Jackie Krick:
Pretty much, pretty much. Yeah.
Denzil Mohammed:
And capitalize on the entrepreneurial talents and desires of immigrants. Like you, Jackie Krick, founder, president, and CEO of ECU communications in Manassas Virginia immigrant from Colombia and business owner. Thank you so much for joining us on Jobmakers,
Jackie Krick:
Denzil, thank you so much. It’s great speaking with you.
Denzil Mohammed:
Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a non-profit in Boston and the Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s inspiring story of immigrant entrepreneurship. Remember, you can subscribe to Jobmakers of apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please leave us at a rating and a review I’m Denzil Mohammed, see you next Thursday at noon.
Recent Episodes:
This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Cara Candal and Gerard Robinson talk with Cass Sunstein, the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard Law School, and the author of The New York Times best-selling book, The World According to Star Wars. He shares what drew him to this topic, and why, after 45 years, these movies have become a $70 billion multimedia franchise and continue to have such wide intergenerational appeal. They review some of the classic myths and legends that influenced George Lucas, the brilliant creator of the films. Prof. Sunstein explains some of the larger civic educational lessons found in the space epic, including the war between the democratic Republic and the autocratic Empire, in which the Jedi Knights rebel against imperial tyranny. They also discuss the story of Anakin Skywalker, and his turn to the Dark Side; and the supernatural “Force,” that imbues a series classified as science fiction with a transcendent quality.
Stories of the Week: In England, university and student groups are opposing government plans to set minimum eligibility requirements for student loans. In New York City, Mayor Eric Adams is seeking an extension of mayoral control of the school district, which for the past 20 years has meant important oversight authority over the schools chancellor and most of the governing panel.
Guest:
Cass Sunstein is the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard, where he is founder and director of the Program on Behavioral Economics and Public Policy. He is the most cited law professor in the United States and likely internationally. He has served as Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs and as a member of the President’s Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies. He is the winner of the 2018 Holberg Prize. His many books include the bestseller Nudge: Improving Decisions about Health, Wealth, and Happiness (with Richard H. Thaler), Simpler: The Future of Government, #Republic: Divided Democracy in the Age of Social Media, and The New York Times bestseller, The World According to Star Wars. He is a frequent adviser to governments all over the world.
The next episode will air on Weds., May 18th, with Nicholas Lemann, Joseph Pulitzer II and Edith Pulitzer Moore Professor of Journalism; Dean Emeritus; Director, Columbia World Projects at Columbia University; and author of the books The Promised Land: The Great Black Migration and How It Changed America and The Big Test – The Origin, Design, and Purpose of the SAT.
Tweet of the Week:
Educators and children’s health experts alike argue students need more support to prevent the overuse of technology from leading to unhealthy behaviors in the classroom. https://t.co/YM5Cg49Fxy
— Education Week (@educationweek) May 9, 2022
News Links:
Universities oppose plan for student cap and loans in England
Mayor Adams headed to Albany to push for mayoral control
Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
[00:00:00] Cara: Well, hello everybody. And welcome to another week of The Learning Curve. This is Cara Candal coming to you from Boston, Massachusetts home of Pioneer Institute, which produces this amazing podcast, this venue for which I get to spend, an hour each week with my friend, Gerard Robinson, GR how are you doing?
[00:00:40] Gerard: I’m doing well. And I still have not watched Star Wars.
[00:00:43] Cara: Uh, huh? Uh huh. Well maybe today’s guests will be able to take you to task on that. Somebody will watch Star Wars and we will talk about it on the show and you’ll think what have I been missing all of these years? What have I been missing out on this point in my life?
[00:00:59] I’ll be [00:01:00] waiting for that. Gerard. I have a question for you. I want to know Gerard, do you consider yourself to be a good standardized test?
[00:01:09] GR: No. Ooh, do tell I still to this date have one of the lowest scores in the history of the sat. Even when I took other standardized tests, I did not do well.
[00:01:22] I’m not a great standardized test taker. I’ve noted that for years so. I’m a new.
[00:01:27] Cara: Get you are a very successful person in life, right? I think you are, I think you’re wildly successful. I’m
[00:01:33] GR: asking Kimberly. Well, it depends upon the day. Kimberly will say yes or no, but. overcame this just so we
[00:01:40] Cara: all know that Kimberly’s always right.
[00:01:42] But the thing is that I too, I was a terrible standardized test taker, like infamously. I was always the kid who like missed one of the rows of bubbles and was always one answer on. And then didn’t realize it until the end of the test and then we’ll panic, but I’m asking you this because my darling twelve-year-old [00:02:00] daughter is right now taking the ERB tests, , given by her private school, the educational record bureau tests.
[00:02:05] And, um, and she just pulled the mom and she came home pretty upset. Telling me that she miss bubbled something. I’m thinking, first of all, why are these not online, but also, trying to give her hope that this, in fact, at this point in her life is really not as important as it might seem to her.
[00:02:23] I do want her to get the skill though. Test taking is a skill. It takes practice. It takes time. And to the extent that it will continue to dictate some of our lives. And I think you and I both think that testing has its place and we all got to do it. I’m just gathering proof from people who I think are really smart and accomplished to tell her that it’s not going to be the great determinant.
[00:02:42] Exactly.
[00:02:44] Cara: Exactly. All right, Gerard, I’ve got a story this week out of jolly old England, which I know you do quite a great British accent. Me, not so much. but this one piqued my interest because it is about. University students. And it’s about a [00:03:00] new proposal from the government to limit certain types of students.
[00:03:05] Very specifically those who don’t score well on the, GSEC, I believe they’re called, this is the sort of secondary school exam that is administrative it’s like a high school exit examination. Hmm. The government is saying that for students who don’t score well on, on this exam, many of those students often end up getting into institutions of higher learning, where they’re getting sort of what we might call low value credentials.
[00:03:32] And those same students are the. Borrowing from the government to put themselves through programs, maybe in college, maybe, a skilled trade where they’re earning degrees or earning certificates or earning credentials that might not actually earn them a lot of money in the long run.
[00:03:49] So government’s answer is to cap the students, to cap the number of students who can actually. Get into these programs and take out loans to things there. [00:04:00] This is really interesting for a number of reasons. Number one. The national student’s union and the universities are pushing back hard against this saying it’s only going to deepen inequities in access and access to higher education in that the people who would be most effected most impacted by this law are already those who can’t afford the cost of higher education.
[00:04:22] That’s number one, but number two, they’re saying that. It’s not just about this inherent disadvantage they’re creating, but that folks should be able to go on and sort of choose the pathway that they want. Now, Jared, I just came today from, a webinar on teacher apprenticeships, a program that we’ve talked about that’s happening in Tennessee and another places.
[00:04:42] And it got me thinking about the really good work that’s going on in the areas of college and career pathways. And it seems to me that. Both parties are in England here, probably. Right. Like government’s probably right to be worried that people are taking on debt, taking out loans, and then using that money to go [00:05:00] on, to receive credentials that might not be high value and might not bring them any return on investment.
[00:05:06] And then they’re saddled with debt. But at the same time, should we really be saying to people like, no, you have low test scores. Like me maybe, therefore, , find another path. You, we’re not going to facilitate you looking at higher education. Now that’s a pretty black and white way of putting it.
[00:05:25] But it seems to me that the more interesting conversation here is really around how countries or in our case states figure out what credentials. Our high value. And I have to say, I have some friends, at Excel and ed and lots of other places who are doing great work on this, how you figure out what credentials are high value and how you align those high value credentials with the needs of the labor market, so that people can actually go out and get jobs.
[00:05:49] And then you help people understand. Here are the credentials that are actually going to help you earn this kind of money. Here are the credentials that are going to help you meet this goal in your life. And those might [00:06:00] not even be terminal. But micro-credentials or others. So, I really liked this article Gerard, because I think it points to a problem that we’re certainly grappling with here in the U S and in some states, but we’re going to be grappling with increasingly.
[00:06:15] And it also just was very interesting to me that this proposal to cap the number of students who could take on debt or apply to receive some of these credentials, seems like just a very bureaucrat. Answer to a problem where we could get really creative help people instead of systems. So that’s my story the week.
[00:06:35] I’m sure you have some thoughts about that. My friend, what do you think?
[00:06:38] GR: A few things come to mind? Matthew Chingos. , we had him on our show. , he, was coauthor of a book called game of loans. He’s also written a number of paper on loans. so we’re looking at what I believe now. 1.6 trillion. sitting on the books in terms of loan debt, , that’s more loan debt combined than credit cards and [00:07:00] auto loans.
[00:07:01] When you look at the number of low-income first-generation college students who enroll in non-credit bearing courses cold for remediation. So you go to a state school or a private school and you spend 1, 2, 3 semesters pain photo. And finding yourself possibly leaving and year that year, but semester three or four.
[00:07:26] And guess what, like you said, you now have loans, you got to pay the loans back, you left without a credential, a license or a degree. one way to address this is to tell students to seriously consider community college or junior college. The name will change depending upon what state you’re in. I was not a great standardized test taker, as I acknowledged that.
[00:07:48] I spent three years at the community college. I took the requisite courses I needed including a year and a half of remediation given how horrible I was in high school and then later [00:08:00] matriculated to where I am today. So I think that’s one thing we have to do in our reform space. We are so. focused on to, and through college, which I support, but we often think too college means four year only that it can include a career.
[00:08:20] Or a technical college for a particular trade. I think that’s something we should look at. Yes, there’ll be the loan dynamic, but you will come out of school faster. number two, we are telling too many students to go directly to college. When in fact they can finish high school, take 1, 2, 3 years off, get a job, save money, get practical experience.
[00:08:41] And guess what? Maybe your employer will decide to send you to college. Even if it’s part-time or pay for you to go online. Lastly, the English idea of putting a cap on how many students can take out loans, I think is interesting, our free market system [00:09:00] and choice and competition models of the U S may make that difficult.
[00:09:03] But I think that’s something worth looking at. So. I just think we’ve got to have a gut check with our children and with our colleges and just admit the fact we’re sending too many students to college for you prepare, we are lying to taxpayers. We’re lying to high school students who walk away with the high school diploma that we said was college and career ready.
[00:09:25] And then I’ll bet it’s not. we’ve overlooked. And unfortunately downplay the importance of community , colleges, and trade schools. Because even when I was in school, but definitely my mom and dad were in school that was cold for that, for those people. And you can put whoever you want into those people, but those people who have tried.
[00:09:44] Wait until your air conditioning goes out in the summer. Wait until your refrigerator breaks down, wait till your car deed servicing. These are well-paid jobs. They require a head and heart. So
[00:09:55] Cass: I
[00:09:55] Cara: have to say Gerard, we had a huge pipe that just burst in our newly finished [00:10:00] basement. And I’m with you.
[00:10:02] there was a moment yesterday when I got the price where I was thinking, boy, I shouldn’t have been a policy walk, but there you go.
[00:10:11] GR: Oh, and in fact, one thing I will end with, there are organizations that are working in partnerships with schools to identify exactly what. Workforce wants a one example, at least in Virginia, is it Virginia business, higher education console?
[00:10:25] It’s a collaboration of university presidents, Virginia chamber of commerce employers and others. And they’ve worked with their colleges to say, this is what we’re looking for is support internships. So I know in Virginia that’s one organization that people in their state should look for. And if it doesn’t exist, create one.
[00:10:43] All right. Well, my story is of course also education related, but a little different. So we’re going to talk about the big apple New York city. It not only is the largest city in terms of population in the United States. It has the largest school population in [00:11:00] the country. Over 1 million students are enrolled in New York public schools and they have a new mayor.
[00:11:07] The new mayor. Pretty clear, Eric Adams, that is someone who benefited from public schools in New York city, but who had to be bused to another part of town to get a better education? He’s pretty clear. I like charter schools. He’s pretty
[00:11:21] Cass: clear that he likes public choice.
[00:11:23] GR: He’s pretty clear that education matters.
[00:11:25] Well, we talk about New York and one of the things we often don’t know about, or if we do, we don’t talk about is that New York city is under a mayoral control model. And when we talk about state takeovers, in fact, we’ve spoke, I guess the last two or three shows about Boston and the wonderful, paper you put together on.
[00:11:44] Receivership is a model as you know, where the state will come in and take control over different aspects of the school. When you look at 1989 and fast forward to today, the 60 plus takeovers that have taken place in the country have primarily [00:12:00] been state-driven takeover. Whether it’s in New Jersey, which Jersey city or Newark, but a smaller model is the mayoral control model.
[00:12:10] New York’s one of them. So in 2002, the legislature said, we’re going to put together a group. We’re going to get this passed. And guess what? You’re going to have the opportunity to do three things prior to mayoral control, New York was governed by get this 32 bulls. And they said we’re going to get rid of the boards.
[00:12:30] 32 boards. Yes. Is it, Hey, we’ll get rid of the 32 boards. We’re going to put together. What is in place now? A 15 member education policy. nine are appointed by the mayor, each borough president, he or she gets to appoint one member and then the, , local cops will get subpoint another. So that’s how you get your 15 members and through all of this plus with the mayor, you also choose a chancellor.
[00:12:55] So that’s, it’s been in place since 2002, but this June, [00:13:00] the 10 o’clock lock is going to run out for mural control. So, but let’s fit. Just got to do something. New York governor says, Hey, she wants to extend it. , , mayor Eric Adams said, guess what? Not only do I want to extend it, but I also want to go to Albany to lobby for it.
[00:13:15] , it’s been mixed in terms of the impact that mural control has had over your achievement. Have there been achievement gains? 2002. Absolutely. Have there been questions about equity that continue to grow? Absolutely. The charter schools in the city. That’s where you have a ton of growth, a ton of achievement who are working with low income, poor students, many of them, black and brown.
[00:13:36] So there are still some mixed feelings about the important, but here to takeaways. I think our listeners at least consider number one. You have mural control prior to that you had 32 school boards running the city. You go back to the late 1960s, early 1970s, you had the community control movement in New York city.
[00:13:55] Big, very controversial, way of trying to basically [00:14:00] families, going up against teacher unions, mostly the AMT. And at that time saying we want more control of our school. More control of our curriculum. Arts are the things we’ve heard here. There were planes that the push was moving toward black power.
[00:14:13] There were claims that it was being antisemitic and everything. Metal, but Diane Ravitch wrote a book on the New York school city wars, which even goes back further. So for the listeners, just something to ponder is New York city as a system, simply ungovernable, no matter what model you have, if student achievement and equity are the two criteria you use to determine success and failure.
[00:14:39] And number two, are we saying that locally elected. School board members simply can’t govern. And therefore we have to move away from one principle of American democracy, which is elections or elected board or these elected body, and simply allow the appointed model to work because we saw something [00:15:00] similar in Chicago.
[00:15:01] We saw something. So we’ll learn in Washington DC. So just two questions to ponder. What are your thoughts?
[00:15:07] Cara: I think it’s really fascinating. And I think one of the things, I mean, I can remember if you would’ve asked me 15 years ago. I think I would’ve said of course mayoral control is the way to go and that’s what needs to happen.
[00:15:19] And, you know, sweet, we’ve seen so many examples of school boards asleep at the wheel for lack of a better way of putting it. But in the same token, both Merrill control and elected school boards. Even if the mayor, is appointed to be the person who is running the schools by the state legislature, suffer from the same, you’re constantly changing over.
[00:15:41] So, new elections mean new policies, mean somebody trying to make their mark mean will the new person coming in, carry out the old policies that might have a chance to work. If we sustain them over the longterm states suffer. Two at a state level, you know, when you don’t have long-term stable [00:16:00] state leadership, but it’s a really, really interesting question, Gerard, and it’s a troubling one, I mean, 32 school boards, something, something can’t be right about that.
[00:16:09] there’s a lot of competing interests, but I also think, it’s interesting to think about this notion of if the mayor is the person who’s overseeing the schools and we get this critique, then that the community has no say in what’s going on in the community has no power. I often wonder how much power we really.
[00:16:30] I think we have when we’re vesting our trust in a local school board, especially when it comes to chronically underperforming systems. And I think that’s really the key here. Like in some places, school boards work really well. And we don’t need to think about these other things, but it’s in places where you have a chronically underperforming system.
[00:16:52] Quite frankly, I don’t know if either thing is the answer and. That’s just a longer show altogether. So I [00:17:00] don’t, I don’t know my friend, but it’s a, really fascinating issue and something that, know we’re thinking about a lot here in Boston. Hence I wrote the paper that you referenced on receivership because we’ve been under mural control for quite some time.
[00:17:13] and at the end of the day, I’m not sure that the current mayor is going to do a darn thing about the, dismal state of BPS, for example, and that’s happening all over the county. All right, Gerard will coming up after this. We have got, a guest that I think is going to tell you a lot about why exactly you should be watching star wars, or I might be sorely mistaken.
[00:17:37] We’re going to be bringing on in just a moment. Professor Cass Sunstein. He is the Robert Wamsley university professor at Harvard law school and the author of the New York times bestselling book, the world, according to star wars. Get excited.
[00:17:52] We’ll be back in just a minute.[00:18:00] [00:19:00]
[00:19:05] Cara: Learning curve listeners, please help us welcome professor Cass Sunstein. He is the Robert Walmsley university professor at Harvard, where he is founder and director of the program on behavior economics and public health. He is the most cited law professor in the United States and likely internationally.
[00:19:22] He has served as administrator of the white house office of information and regulatory affairs. And as a member of the president’s review group on intelligence and communication technologies, he is the winner of the 2018 Hulbert prize. His many books include the best seller nudge, improving decisions about health, wealth, and happiness book.
[00:19:41] Simpler the future of government, hashtag Republic divided democracy in the age of social media. Oh my goodness. And of course the New York times bestseller Gerard Robinson’s favorite the world, according to star wars, a frequent advisor to governments all over the world. Professor [00:20:00] Cass, Sunstein. Welcome to the learning.
[00:20:02] Cass: Thank you so much for having
[00:20:03] Cara: me. We’re really happy to have you. So quite a bio there and you are here locally at Harvard. We’re happy to have you. I, myself am recording from Massachusetts. your bio says it all. You are an internationally recognized legal scholar and have been advisor to presidents and other heads of states.
[00:20:22] we want to know about this recent bestseller, the world, according to star wars. Could you tell us about it and talk about why is it, I guess it has been 45 years. Wow. And I remembered them all because I was alive for all of those years. talk about how, why after 45 years these movies, why are. Still watching star wars after all this time.
[00:20:43] but your organisms, , we should say,
[00:20:44] Cass: well, that was actually the question that inspired me to do the book. What is it about star wars that resonates and has kept people interested in sometimes obsessed for all this time? I think there are a couple of things. One [00:21:00] is about freedom of choice. And so the great George Lucas’ trilogy, the original one was focused on the fact that.
[00:21:08] All of us, whether we are Skywalkers or not, encounter times when we can do something. good or not, or kind of grave or not. And that connects with everybody. there’s also a theme about redemption that, even if we did something wrong, maybe really wrong, maybe a little bit wrong, we can do something, right.
[00:21:32] We might be able to make the wrong. Well, we might be able to do something that in our own life history makes us feel that some sort of balance was corrected a balance in the force. If the worst person in the galaxy that is antiquing by Walker at our theater, give or take an emperor. And in his closing moment, turn to good and repudiate his life’s horribleness and save [00:22:00] his son.
[00:22:00] Well, then the rest of us can maybe do something, not quite like that, but something positive. Also there’s a theme in the movie about parents and kids, whether you’re the kid or the parent, the parent will lay down his or her life for you in all probability. Even if the parent isn’t perfect and the kid will kind of do the same and that connects maybe with some of our group that’s, feelings and that’s kind of good.
[00:22:30] Also the movies are really fun and some of their giddiness is contagious. Even if the visitation really, forgive me. Mr. Lupus, occasionally.
[00:22:44] Cara: do have a favorite. What’s your favorite?
[00:22:49] Cass: The empire strikes back is the best.
[00:22:53] Cara: Oh, of course. It’s the best. I couldn’t agree more.
[00:22:56] Cass: That’s the best of the now 6,000 movies.
[00:22:59] [00:23:00] That’s probably the best movie ever made. It’s incredible. It’s ranked in the Shakespeare, maybe about Shakespeare. Okay. I’m exaggerating the empire. I think it’s really, really good. Well,
[00:23:10] Cara: unfortunately I think a lot of Americans might actually recognize lines from the empire strikes back, but not Shakespeare.
[00:23:16] So we will, take what we can get. I could ask you more questions such as who is your favorite character, but I think that we should probably, we should probably move on. So you talked about , the cultural reasons, the human reasons, maybe why we identify. Star wars, but can you talk a little bit about, I mean, this movie was really going to be a flop , people didn’t believe in 1977, that this was going to have, nobody could have predicted it would be the pop culture phenomenon that it continues to be.
[00:23:47] in 2020, the estimated value of the franchise was $70 billion. What is it about the cinematic force that is star wars? What is it about, I mean, if you compare. Viewing, for [00:24:00] example, the empire strikes back today, versus when we were children, it’s obviously a different cinematic experience. what was it at the beginning that grabbed us, even when we didn’t have the technology to make space look believable and what continues to grab us as the franchise grows.
[00:24:17] Cass: Okay. So it’s a fantastic question. So, in terms of the shocking success of star wars, let’s try. Three hypotheses about amazingness, and forgive me for venturing hypotheses, but let’s, go for that. Number one, is it fit with the times that in a time of turmoil and upheaval to have something so joyful , and was that was gonna work?
[00:24:44] that’s the one, the number two, is it. , really lucky and theme three was then it’s cinematically and otherwise, so incredible destined for success. okay. On the first fitting with the times, you get [00:25:00] to your question about the experience of star wars. Really soon, say box on that house, that that hypothesis could be ventured for anything that’s exceeded.
[00:25:11] Taylor swift Harry Potter, prob Joe Biden, everything there’s nothing. And, maybe, but, good luck proving it. in terms of amazingness, I think the movie, the original, what is now called the news. Wasn’t it. And so that’s definitely part of the picture, so to speak. And I remember I saw it in real time and just it’s visually, even now I think less so than at the time.
[00:25:41] so spectacular, nothing people had ever seen before. So in the first scenes you see ships and they look real. Knows what looking real would even be like the human eye thinks that looks real and the motion of the ship, the big shift going over the old ship just seems. [00:26:00] So people never seen anything like that before.
[00:26:03] And even the letters as the plot is, started. Uh, people hadn’t really seen that in this spectacular setting before. And so it was kind of the best imaginable overload that you could see. And then the characters were even early, really iconic. There’s Luke Skywalker, the kind of kid. at least boys, maybe girls also identify all like unaffected as kind of normal life.
[00:26:31] And then you’re called by something greater than you could imagine when you succeed. And princess Leia, who is the bravest and smartest of the wall. Feminist icon who never loses her wets. And, it’s the only one that really knows completely what she’s doing. And then there’s the near be well, non solo who, boys kind of aspired to be.
[00:26:53] Cause he was the coolest. And then there’s the best father you could imagine. It also turns out to be magical. [00:27:00] So the cinematic amazingness plus. Iconic figures who are based on, in some sense in Chris’s amazing unconscious, narratives that go back to the Bible and the Homer and the, he connected all of them with some of that.
[00:27:16] the law hypothesis, which is the most deflating I think has true. Not that it diminishes the amazingness of the visual and the amazingness of the characters and the largeness of the plots, or the fact that the themes about redemption and freedom of choice and the struggle between good and evil.
[00:27:38] These are, humanity’s biggest themes are in a package that you’re eating popcorn. In the midst of, and did that? that’s simple, but it did get the benefit of lock. That is, it got a lot of early popularity. It got some great, very public, , reviews. and, to say that it’s amazing, this was [00:28:00] enough to make it a comic.
[00:28:01] there are no that needed to act hit, some streets in a way. That kind of corresponds to what happened with Beatles. What happened with Taylor swift for app and Elvis Presley were happening to great. And all of the ones I just mentioned are fantastic. and choose your pickup, make it, make a pick about who’s the most fantastic, but there are plenty of fantastic things that you’ve never heard of because they didn’t get the benefit.
[00:28:25] And the book tries to tell the tale of the kind of serendipity that turns star wars from not merely an amazing achievement, but a , , culturally central financial.
[00:28:37] Cara: Yeah, never thought I would hear Taylor swift discussed in the same sentences with star wars, but I get it. , and I appreciate it.
[00:28:43] And I have to say, thinking about those scrolling words. , at the beginning I took my eight year old son that summer to see empire strikes back and a drive-thru movie. And he was mesmerized. He thought it, you know, it didn’t look. Nearly as technologically impressive to him as it did to me when I [00:29:00] was, seeing that movie as a kid, but Boyle boy, he thought that was pretty neat.
[00:29:04] And how many Halloweens did I dress up as princess Leia? I can’t even count. in your book, you talk about the gray. The Campbell, he’s author of the 1949 books, the hero with a thousand faces and he called George Lucas. Obviously the man behind star wars. He said that he was Campbell said that Lucas was his greatest student.
[00:29:26] Campbell tells us so much about myths and legends and adventures. What is it about star wars and the lessons about the hero’s journey? that Campbell talks about. can you help us understand that? Yeah.
[00:29:41] Cass: Link, this was greatly influenced by Joseph Campbell. So if you take, the hero in meth or religion or Marvel comics or DC comics, it often has exactly the same central narrative ingredients.
[00:29:57] So it might be in. [00:30:00] a simple version of what Campbell elaborates in detail, there’s someone, who is, having a normal life and is young, who is called to, action or ordeal. Achievement by someone who is a parental figure and that person is large and important. And the person initially says, no, I’m not going to do that.
[00:30:27] And haven’t we all at one point, let’s say between the age of 10 and 20. , maybe between the age of 10 and 70 said, no, I’m going to do that. so it really resonates. But then at some points there’s some loss or some event, which makes the person to the hero say, okay, I’m with you. I’m going to try.
[00:30:48] And then the person faces a terrible ordeal and is tested, might in the process, lose the elder sponsor. Let’s call it like Obi wan Kenobi or Mike in the process. Be [00:31:00] injured or hurt in some way, but faces tragedy and difficulty and maybe fails. Then the person in the midst of the ordeal and the trial, overcoming.
[00:31:12] And succeeds. And I’m thinking now kind of, of Jessica Jones, there was a great TV series about Jessica Jones, which is really tracking, , the hero of a thousand faces. And then, uh, becomes transfigured in some sense and enlarge and either returns home or returns to some, role, which partakes of home in some way, some piece of the place where hero resides is home.
[00:31:40] And these various steps are traced, in the air of a thousand faces by Joseph Campbell in great detail. And. the Star Wars films really track that. In fact, what makes it amazing is that they’re tracked both for Anaconda and for loop in their different ways. And the[00:32:00] underrated prequels, I say with, fear, uncertainty.
[00:32:04] I’m going to go for it. The underrated prequels have the hero’s journey for Anakin and. No, they’re not perfect. Movies in charge are banks, maybe not the best, but it really is the hero’s journey. And I can, ends up by the end of the second trilogy tracking something like what Joseph Campbell had in mind.
[00:32:24] GR: So I’d like to shift us into a conversation about civics. So when the war between the democratic ideas of the galactic Republic, and then you have the autocratic dictatorship of the galactic empire. It frames a larger political narrative about star wars. In your book, you discuss Jedi Knights as Jeffersonian style guardians of the Republic, defenders of an ordered Liberty and rebels against Imperial tyranny.
[00:32:51] Could you explain how all of that falls into a larger, civic educational lesson that we today could learn from
[00:32:58] Cass: completely? [00:33:00] So take at the human level. As opposed to the political level, star wars to be about freedom of choice under conditions of uncertainty. And that’s, it’s theme for Luke and for Annika and for Leah and for obiwan.
[00:33:18] , and basically everybody. That we have freedom and difficult to see the future is, as Yoda says. so there Lucas plays brilliantly with the theme of destiny and, , pre-ordained stuff, but in the end, the movies reject that and it’s all about, you got to choose. And Lucas’s incredibly articulate and moving about this as are some of his collaborators where each of us, like today, we have a choice to make about whether to be kind or not whether to be, disrespectful or not, whether to be.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] The hero a little bit in the eyes of at least someone or at least a frat and that’s everywhere. So that’s the micro level to your point at the political level. Lucas does exactly the same thing and the beating heart of democracy as he sees it is of freedom of choice. And self-government, by those who are.
[00:34:21] populating a nation or a galaxy or a planet that it can be us and our choice where we go, or we can basically, be cowed or recede and let, freedom die, to thunderous applause as the underrated prequels describe. And Lucas had very much in mind, especially in the prequels, but it’s also there.
[00:34:45] And the original trilogy, the rise of authoritarianism and he had a sense of its seductive appeal. both it’s in some ways erotic appeal. That’s one of the creepy, really good [00:35:00] features of the first six movies and also it’s, appeal to the human spirit. Some of which says, , you figure.
[00:35:09] Freedom is, it’s tough to bear. And also I’m kind of mad and I want you to punish maybe people who are my fellow citizens, but certainly to keep me safe. that play between the individual level freedom and the political level freedom is what makes , these movies, which seem really fun. also.
[00:35:31] GR: George Lucas has called star wars. The tragedy of Darth Vader. Would you talk about the rise, fall or redemption of Skywalker from gifted slave and Jedi Knight to a character whose fear pain and anger turned him into a dehumanized mechanism of evil before finally being saved by his son.
[00:35:52] Cass: Yeah, that’s fantastic.
[00:35:53] Thank you. So the fact that Lucas called it the tragedy of Darth Vader, I think that’s [00:36:00] very, actually very moving. And if you saw the original movie, that is, new hope who would have thought. But that’s what the whole thing would be about. So Darth Vader is mannequin Skywalker with a little boy. who’s taken care of by his beloved mother.
[00:36:18] he suffers, excruciating loss that is of his mother at the hands of evil. Thinks he’s going to suffer or it’s not for the loss of his beloved and it’s fear of loss as you say, that turns him and the emperor. I think in a way, the personification of something that hits all of us, in life at some point, which is a lack of control.
[00:36:44] And vulnerability to the loss of what mysterious to us and how do you respond to that? And you can respond to that by, , making common cause with others who are mortal and at risk and [00:37:00] accepting your own vulnerability. Or you can put on some kind of armor and try to. destroy others who are maybe, threatening people you care about, or just in the way.
[00:37:13] And so when Antigone Skywalker becomes Darth Vader, at the moment of choice, it’s the fear of loss that, pushes him and the emperor plays on that pushes him to evil. And any of us who’s felt rage or maybe has, actually. At some point almost hitched or actually hit someone or imagined it, maybe that’s starts the Darth Vader at us.
[00:37:39] So the idea that, that is in each of us as is good, is, not false and how we react to our deepest vulnerability is what makes for. the generality let’s call out of the tragedy of Darth Vader and what I may be loved most of all [00:38:00] about the star wars movies, the original six is that, the third of the prequels, the last scene.
[00:38:07] Play exactly the same as the third of the original trilogy, where in the third of the prequels and akin, isn’t exactly the same situation that we had previously seen Luke with the same person, the emperor. And in both cases, they are, as you say, struggling with the prospect of the loss of what they care about most , their own vulnerability and the vulnerability they care about.
[00:38:32] And. And a can chooses to go to the emperor and Luke chooses not to, partly because he trusts and loves his father and it can didn’t have that.
[00:38:44] GR: So this is the only person on this call who hasn’t seen star wars, even I’ve heard the term, the force, and we know it as a supernatural energy bonding to the galaxy, but it also.
[00:38:57] both good and evil characters, [00:39:00] it So an aspect of it that looks at spiritual strengths and extra ordinary deeds. Could you talk to us about the varied mythical, and philosophical origins of the forest and how star wars was able to bring that together? in a science fiction movie, that’s often better known for technology spaceships and
[00:39:18] Cass: Yeah, thanks for that. So, I’ll tell you a story. So the one person I was terrified of, reading my book was George Lucas. I knew him a tiny, tiny bed and never talked to him about the book and the writing. And after I wrote it, I saw him at a huge party. And he came up to me and I was hoping that behind me was Harrison Ford or someone that his movies, but sure enough, he was coming up to me and he said, he read my book and he actually liked it.
[00:39:53] And I got to spend a lot of time with him and he gave me a book. In which he signed it. May the force be [00:40:00] with you. And I can’t tell you how much I love that because George Lucas has no errors. There’s nothing fake about him. I’m sure he’s signed 10,000 books. May the force be with you? And he didn’t say, you know, Cass, I liked your book.
[00:40:15] You did a good job. He said, may the force we went here. I thought there was a beauty in the robustness of that, but also for the. 10,000 times he signed it. He meant it every time. I’m confident. , , the force, has deliberate mystery in it. As you say, it’s the opposite of technology. It’s old rather than new and it’s as the mythology of star wars described.
[00:40:40] It’s a force that connects all of us, and whatever your religious convictions may be. We can see that as in some sense, true. If you meet a stranger, there’s something that’s passing between you and that person. , what it is. No, one’s in one sentence it’s [00:41:00] wildly mysterious. And another sense it’s kind of very Monday night.
[00:41:04] they to understand the brain can explain it in either case it’s really cool. And that, that force, when you meet a stranger or someone, who’s a friend and there’s interaction that is warm and mutually supportive, and that is binding. but also if you meet a stranger or maybe a friend, there’s something in there, that’s a little edgy and maybe scared and that’s there.
[00:41:32] So, you can take it as a myth, but you can also take it as a play on what human life is actually like.
[00:41:40] Cara: Well, professor Cass, Sunstein, thank you so much for joining us today. it’s been a real pleasure, , thinking about star wars , and learning about exactly why, our society loves this franchise so much.
[00:41:52] And think that tomorrow, We’re going to get them to watch. we’re going to work on it. Thanks for your time today. And please take good
[00:41:58] Cass: care of, thank you [00:42:00] so much. It was a great pleasure for me and to you may the force, as they say with you, I was
[00:42:06] hoping you
[00:42:07] Cara: would say that may the force be with you too?
[00:42:09] Professor
[00:42:10] take care.[00:43:00] [00:44:00]
[00:44:29] Cara: As always, we’re going to end with our tweet of the week, this one from education week and the headline is students are behaving badly in class. Excessive screen time may be to blame. So after reading the article linked to this tweet, which points to consequences of certain types of screen time, I think it’s important to point out such as, , teachers reporting that students who have excessive screen time, especially those who are doing things like being on social media or doing non-educational [00:45:00] things on their tablets, computers, other than.
[00:45:03] I was showing an increased, inability to manage stress. obviously, anybody who ever takes their iPhone to bed knows that screen time can interfere with your sleep. , and in that students just generally, have a hard time paying attention. In fact, the article says that the research suggests that some students might be misidentified as having, for example, attention deficit disorder.
[00:45:24] When really, if they’d would just cut back on some of their screen time, especially unproductive screen time, it would be a benefit. Yeah. Sounded to find out that your average American eight to 12 year old is watching, I think between five and eight hours a day on their screens. And that does not include what they’re doing at school on screens, which really blew my mind.
[00:45:43] two things it made me simultaneously think. Thank goodness. I don’t think my kids are in their screens that often, but also maybe my kids should just not be on their. Outside of educational materials at all, except for the occasional Celtics game, which I feel like I cannot deprive [00:46:00] my children of so Gerard, we’re going to be back together again next week.
[00:46:06] And please listeners, don’t forget to join us next week. We are going to be talking to professor Nicholas Lemann, former Dean of Columbia university, school of journalism as always. It’ll be a great one Gerard until then. We’ll be waiting to hear if you watch star. And you have a good
[00:46:22] GR: one. May the force be with
[00:46:24] Cara: you always, may the force be with you?
[00:46:26] My friend.[00:47:00] [00:48:00]
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/in Economic Opportunity, Featured, JobMakers /by Editorial StaffThis week on JobMakers, host Denzil Mohammed talks with Jackie Krick, immigrant from Colombia and founder, president and CEO of ECU Communications in Manassas, Virginia. They discuss the entrepreneurial spirit of the newest Americans – immigrants – and why they are twice as likely to start a business and create jobs. For Jackie, it took a few tries, but she learned the system, used available resources, and today, she runs a successful digital communications and cross-cultural services agency focused largely on federal contracts. She started an award-winning nonprofit called Impacto Youth to give underserved teens access to education and skills training. And she cofounded Centerfuse, a coworking space for microentrepreneurs to discover, learn, train and be mentored by successful business owners like her, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers.
Guest:
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
Denzil Mohammed:
I’m Denzil Mohammed and welcome to Jobmakers.
Denzil Mohammed:
Arguably entrepreneurship is what sets the United States apart from the rest of the world it’s made by and for entrepreneurs. And it is uniquely suited to capitalize on the entrepreneurial spirit of its newest Americans immigrants. That’s a big part of the reason why immigrants are twice as likely to start a business and create jobs for Jackie Krick immigrant, from Colombia and founder, president and CEO of ECU communications in Manassas, Virginia. It took a few tries, but she learned the system and used the resources available to her available to all Americans. Today. She runs a successful digital communications and cross-cultural services agency focused ly on federal contracts. However, Jackie takes that love of entrepreneurship further. She started an award-winning nonprofit called impact to youth to give underserved teens access to education and skills training, and she co-founded CenterFuse a co-working space for micro entrepreneurs to discover, learn, train, and be mentored by successful business winners like Jackie, as you’ll discover in this week’s JobMakers,
Denzil Mohammed:
Jackie Krick, founder, president and CEO of ECU communications in Manasas Virginia. Welcome to the Jobmakers podcast. How are you?
Jackie Krick:
Thank you, Denzil. I’m doing great. Happy to be here.
Denzil Mohammed:
So tell us a little bit about your business and why it’s special.
Jackie Krick:
ECU communications is a leading woman known small business. We’re a full agency specializing in digital communications in cross and cross cultural services. We were founded 18 years ago. We celebrated our 18th anniversary in, at the end of April. So we’re very, very proud of the accomplishments that we’ve done today ECU communications services clients across the us, and we provide a multitude of digital communication services, including branding media website development, app development, all types of communications, very proud to be part of the organization,
Denzil Mohammed:
Even coming up with taglines and slogans for businesses. I know. And you’ve, you have a range of very different, very diverse clients, right from the government to the private sector to nonprofits. Is that correct?
Jackie Krick:
That is correct. Our primary market is the federal government. That’s when ECU was founded, we started with servicing the federal government. We became eight, a certified in the, in the SME small business administration. It’s a certification for nine years and we successfully graduated from that in 2015. So we’ve serviced the federal government for all these years. And along the way, we’ve expanded our services to nonprofit organizations, stayed in local organizations and also the private sector, which is a growing area of interest right now,
Denzil Mohammed:
Really. But did you always want or expect to be a business owner?
Jackie Krick:
That’s
Denzil Mohammed:
Was that in the cards?
Jackie Krick:
Interesting question. I, I, I think I grew into that.
Jackie Krick:
Hmm. So I started working you know, my first jobs were just you know, normal jobs and but I was, I always felt that I wasn’t really happy in the role that I was. I always felt that I could do things a little bit better in my way, obviously a little bit faster. And I felt myself pulling out of the, the everyday kind of activities to, to want to be more in command of the things that I wanted done. So I, I think over the years I did fall into that role to say that I woke up one day and I wanted to be a business owner, maybe not so much, but I’m very happy with the decision that I made.
Denzil Mohammed:
I think you should be very happy with your decision. It’s been such a success. So a lot of Americans don’t know what it’s like growing up in other countries, particularly south American countries, developing countries. And you yourself have a really diverse background stressing from France to Chile, to Bolivia take us back to let’s say your grandfather and bring it up to today, up with you in Manassas.
Jackie Krick:
So my grandmother, my grandfather was French. He was, his family was a hundred percent French. They migrated to Columbia and that’s where he was born. He and 13 other brothers and sisters, when the oldest kids became eligible for the military, they went back to France. And so my grandfather was one of that first batch of kids that were born, went to the military in France. And when he was done, he decided to go back to Columbia to see the country where he was born. And of course he met, my grandmother fell in love and married, and they had five children. One of ’em was my, my mother moving forward. My mom was an adult. She fell in love with a Jillian man.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
He, he had traveled to Colombia and fell in love, got married. <Affirmative> my oldest brother was born in Chile. I’m sorry. My oldest brother was born in Colombia. And then she went to live in Chile for a few years where my two other brothers were born and then they went back to Colombia where I was born. So I’m the youngest, the only girl and well, I’m the baby. Of course, baby. Not a spoil one though.
Denzil Mohammed:
And then your stepfather came on the scene and he was American.
Jackie Krick:
Correct? my stepfather, my mom met my stepfather when I was nine years old. They got married. He was in Columbia doing a mission with the department of state and was there for a few years. At age 15, he was transferred when I was at 15. We got news that he was getting transferred to Bolivia. So we all moved my mom and my brothers and I, and my stepfather moved to Bolivia for six years. And that’s where we basically lived. I loved Bolivia, wonderful place, beautiful people. The indigenous people were amazing, the food, everything else. I hold Bolivia very dear in my heart.
Denzil Mohammed:
And so you moved at 15 and then you moved again when you were 21, when your stepfathers transferred back to the us, right?
Jackie Krick:
Yes.
Denzil Mohammed:
And what was that experience like moving to the United States of America?
Jackie Krick:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
So through those years we had visited the United States and we knew what it was like and, and spoke English. But I can tell you that nothing can prepare, would prepare me to come and live here. It was very different when you are visiting one location is one thing when you’re living and working and, you know doing your daily activities is completely, completely different. So it took, it took getting used to it. It took, even though I spoke English, it took getting your ear accustomed to everybody speaking English to you all the time. The way of life was completely different. So it, it really, it was a hard thing for me. I, I remember going to sleep and really crying myself to sleep sometimes, really just because I, I was in a very different environment. I was living with my brother and his wife away from home for the first time and moving into a world of, you know, working and just being an adult,
Denzil Mohammed:
Navigating the system.
Jackie Krick:
Yeah. Very, very different. So it took me a little while, but eventually I, you know, I, I surpassed that and here I am. So
Denzil Mohammed:
We, we talked about your business a little bit earlier, and we’re gonna talk about a little bit more that you started in 2004 ECU communications, but you sort of started your own business at way back in 1990. Didn’t you, you went off on your own doing graphic design, right? Yes. What was, what was that like, tell us why you ended up having to close it. And what lessons did you think you learned from that experience?
Jackie Krick:
I started it because I, again, I wanted to do something on my own. I really felt empowered to try something new that I could drive on my own and make something out of it. The reason I closed it quite honestly, I went through a divorce and it became really hard because I’ll, I’ll tell you in a minute what lessons I learned, but it became really hard for me to be the one going out, looking for work and then coming back and doing the work. So I was an organization of one person, which very difficult to do. You, you cannot be all to everything and do every other work. So it was very difficult. I eventually decided to just fold the business and, and get myself employed again. It was very hard decision. I can tell you that I, I didn’t wanna do it, but I had some of the lessons that I learned definitely is that you need to, if you want to grow your business, you cannot do it alone.
Jackie Krick:
You need to find the people that can help you, the great talent that can help you. You have to have that collaboration and you have to have the, the right the right tools and depending how big you wanna be. Right. obviously I learned a tremendous amount of lessons during that time, because the second time around when I started ECU, I knew it in my mind that I wanted to do something completely different and that I could not be the lead. I could not be the graphic designer. I could not be the writer. And also the business development. When you start a business, you do wear a lot of hats, but you cannot do that constantly because that will never get you to the next level.
Denzil Mohammed:
And you’re also the janitor and you’re also the technician and you’re also the driver. Let’s not forget those things.
Jackie Krick:
That’s right. <Laugh>
Denzil Mohammed:
Your current business, which you started in 2004 is now flourishing. Take us through the different steps and stages of how you grew that business.
Jackie Krick:
Well, one of the things that I learned when I went back and got myself employed again, right. It was working with a, in the it sector, but always doing marketing and advertising and they were doing government contracting. So I learned how to work in that environment. I learned a lot about contracts in managing contracts, although I was not doing that, but I learned a lot about that. And so that gave me the ability to say, you know, here’s an opportunity. The government does a lot of business with a variety of sizes of business. Like you have the small businesses, the, the large businesses, the eight, eight businesses. And so I saw an opportunity there to really get started as a, as a small business first and then apply for the eight a certification, which it’s a, it’s a certification for specific folks.
Jackie Krick:
So, you know, being a Hispanic woman, I definitely was want to be able to get that certification because of who I was. And I knew that with the broad range of competitors, that there are out there having the access to a smaller pool of opportunities would definitely help my business grow up. So I went after that application. And then after that, I started going after the government contracts, it took me a while. It, it really did. You really need to know and have access to a lot of different tools. So if I had to do it all over again, I probably change it up a little bit, but you know, those are the things that you learned along the way, right? And, and now I love to help others and tell others, you know, how they can do it too, because it’s not it, it it’s, you have to try certain things before you can really get that, that the right path. I would’ve waited a little bit longer before getting my Aday certification. I would’ve waited until I had a, a larger base of business. If you know, the Aday certification is only nine years. Once you get it, you get into it nine years, go by and you’re out. So,
Denzil Mohammed:
And just for, for listeners who may not be familiar with it, could you just describe it a little bit?
Jackie Krick:
So the a a is a small business administration program to help underserved people from countries like Hispanics, African Americans, Asians, they can apply to become ADA certified. And what happens is that the government agencies, they set aside a portion of their purchasing contracts of their contracts. They set ’em aside as a, a, a, that means that the, the pool of competitors can only be a, a so that you have a, a bigger opportunity to have access to those contracts.
Denzil Mohammed:
So you found the opportunities and you went after them. That’s, that’s what a business owner does. And, but you spoke a little bit about creating opportunities for others and sort of letting other people, other, probably BU budding business owners know the kind of knowledge and background that you now have. First off, I wanna bring up impact to youth. This is where you want to create opportunities for young people to learn and develop their skills. And, you know, they come from vulnerable communities. And you, you said once I heard you say that this was your real passion. Can you describe this a little bit for me and why you decided to do this?
Jackie Krick:
Yes. So I think that everybody has such great potential to do something with themselves, but it really all depends on the path that they get on. And the reason why impact a youth was founded was to give so many kids, young, young adults, young kids opportunities to dream. My mother used to always say, you know, when you dream high, you need to dream higher because chances are, you’re going to get to a certain point, maybe not as high as you’re dreaming. So I wanna give kids the opportunity to dream as high as they can, and be able to get more than what they think that they can get, you know,
Denzil Mohammed:
More than what they were born into, I guess.
Jackie Krick:
That’s right. That’s right. So the other thing that I believe is that when you give those opportunities to young people, you’re teaching them something, found with a, a great foundation. You’re teaching them that, you know, they’re able to go and do things on their own that they’re capable of being self providers. And that’s really what I, what I want to teach them to go out, be self providers help yourselves learn and accomplish a lot of great things, because that’s the greatest feeling when you, when you go and get it yourself, rather than, you know, be there waiting for something, somebody to give it to you.
Denzil Mohammed:
Does any particular young person come to mind when you think of the program?
Jackie Krick:
We’ve done impact to youth academy, where we brought in kids from the high schools around here and mentor them through soft skills and career planning and things like that. And some kids came back to me and said, you know, everything we learned there we’ve, we’ve, we’ve applied. And so some kids were starting their, their careers as entrepreneurs and learning new things. It it’s really, it touches me a lot. It really does. The one thing that I did learn is that we need to start younger, not just high school kids, because when you’re in high school, you’re already, it’s kind of too late. So we are learning that we need to start more in the middle, middle school to really touch the kids and really get them interested in into thinking about it could be a career. It could be an entrepreneur. It, doesn’t not, everybody’s made to be a, a business owner and not everybody’s made to have a four year degree. You know, there’s other things that kids can do as long as they’re willing to learn something. That to me is the basic thing.
Denzil Mohammed:
Wow.
Jackie Krick:
I get very passionate about that.
Denzil Mohammed:
I can, I can tell but what was the main driving force for you to do this?
Jackie Krick:
Yeah, I wanna give back to the community. I, I, I wanted to share some of the success that I’ve had with the community. I, I wanted to give something to the young kids to help ’em
Denzil Mohammed:
And you’re also helping budding entrepreneurs, because I know that you have a, a relationship with the city of Manassas, and there’s a co-working space that I guess, incubates budding entrepreneurs who may wanna start their business. Can you describe that for me?
Jackie Krick:
So about five years ago, we engaged. I’m a, I’m a, a co-founder one founder, one of four, and we engaged in a private partner, private public partnership with the city of Manassas to open up a coworking space here in the city. And the idea is to help entrepreneurs micro, tiny little companies come and have a place where they can discover new potentials for opportunities to grow for training. We have the SD B C here. I think they come to the office maybe two times a week, and they meet with businesses that either are starting their businesses, or they already are, have been founded, but they need more guidance and more mentorship. So we do that through, through the SD B C and then it’s very economical. It’s only like 10, $10 in a day that they can come here and they can have access to all their resources. You know, a table networking, they can print materials, they can also meet other like-minded individuals that where they can, you know, engage and, and have new business opportunities. And that actually has happened a lot here. So very interested and very engaging. I love everything about growth and entrepreneurship and being able to connect with others. That’s what cent fused us.
Denzil Mohammed:
It’s almost like you’ve come full circle since you first moved to the us and would cry yourself to sleep. And now you’re actually actively giving back to other people, other young people probably from immigrant families as well, vulnerable families, too. Which is really, really very cool, which brings it to my last question, which is the United States has allowed you to thrive and be successful. Maybe it took a couple tries, but you got there. And you, I’m sure you’re still dreaming higher and higher. How do you feel about the United States as a place that allowed you to succeed as a woman, as an entrepreneur, as someone who has dreams,
Jackie Krick:
I love this country. Hmm. I love it. I, I really think that it’s all inside of you and I, I really, I am a force inside of me that really wanted to push forward just who I am. And I am so glad and thankful and appreciative of the United States in, in the ways that yes, we have a long way to go in so many things. Right. But I had the opportunity to do it. And that, I mean, opening a new business here is as easy as going and getting a license for your business.
Jackie Krick:
Mm. Obviously that’s not something I would recommend because you need to know a little bit more than just that. But what I’m saying is there are so many things that facilitate you doing something. And if you put yourself into it every single day and you dedicate and you believe what you’re gonna do, and you have a computer or you have, you know, get and go talk to people, it is so much easier to do business here in Columbia, maybe other countries too, when you reach a certain age, you pretty old and there’s no more work. There’s no more opportunities in the United States. You have limitless opportunities where you can work and you can start your business, even when you’re a senior citizen. It’s amazing. I love it.
Denzil Mohammed:
It’s almost as though it’s built to foster entrepreneurship, right.
Jackie Krick:
Pretty much, pretty much. Yeah.
Denzil Mohammed:
And capitalize on the entrepreneurial talents and desires of immigrants. Like you, Jackie Krick, founder, president, and CEO of ECU communications in Manassas Virginia immigrant from Colombia and business owner. Thank you so much for joining us on Jobmakers,
Jackie Krick:
Denzil, thank you so much. It’s great speaking with you.
Denzil Mohammed:
Jobmakers is a weekly podcast about immigrant entrepreneurship and contribution produced by Pioneer Institute, a non-profit in Boston and the Immigrant Learning Center in Malden, Massachusetts, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Thank you for joining us for this week’s inspiring story of immigrant entrepreneurship. Remember, you can subscribe to Jobmakers of apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please leave us at a rating and a review I’m Denzil Mohammed, see you next Thursday at noon.
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Read a Transcript of This Episode
Please excuse typos.
[00:00:00] Cara: Well, hello everybody. And welcome to another week of The Learning Curve. This is Cara Candal coming to you from Boston, Massachusetts home of Pioneer Institute, which produces this amazing podcast, this venue for which I get to spend, an hour each week with my friend, Gerard Robinson, GR how are you doing?
[00:00:40] Gerard: I’m doing well. And I still have not watched Star Wars.
[00:00:43] Cara: Uh, huh? Uh huh. Well maybe today’s guests will be able to take you to task on that. Somebody will watch Star Wars and we will talk about it on the show and you’ll think what have I been missing all of these years? What have I been missing out on this point in my life?
[00:00:59] I’ll be [00:01:00] waiting for that. Gerard. I have a question for you. I want to know Gerard, do you consider yourself to be a good standardized test?
[00:01:09] GR: No. Ooh, do tell I still to this date have one of the lowest scores in the history of the sat. Even when I took other standardized tests, I did not do well.
[00:01:22] I’m not a great standardized test taker. I’ve noted that for years so. I’m a new.
[00:01:27] Cara: Get you are a very successful person in life, right? I think you are, I think you’re wildly successful. I’m
[00:01:33] GR: asking Kimberly. Well, it depends upon the day. Kimberly will say yes or no, but. overcame this just so we
[00:01:40] Cara: all know that Kimberly’s always right.
[00:01:42] But the thing is that I too, I was a terrible standardized test taker, like infamously. I was always the kid who like missed one of the rows of bubbles and was always one answer on. And then didn’t realize it until the end of the test and then we’ll panic, but I’m asking you this because my darling twelve-year-old [00:02:00] daughter is right now taking the ERB tests, , given by her private school, the educational record bureau tests.
[00:02:05] And, um, and she just pulled the mom and she came home pretty upset. Telling me that she miss bubbled something. I’m thinking, first of all, why are these not online, but also, trying to give her hope that this, in fact, at this point in her life is really not as important as it might seem to her.
[00:02:23] I do want her to get the skill though. Test taking is a skill. It takes practice. It takes time. And to the extent that it will continue to dictate some of our lives. And I think you and I both think that testing has its place and we all got to do it. I’m just gathering proof from people who I think are really smart and accomplished to tell her that it’s not going to be the great determinant.
[00:02:42] Exactly.
[00:02:44] Cara: Exactly. All right, Gerard, I’ve got a story this week out of jolly old England, which I know you do quite a great British accent. Me, not so much. but this one piqued my interest because it is about. University students. And it’s about a [00:03:00] new proposal from the government to limit certain types of students.
[00:03:05] Very specifically those who don’t score well on the, GSEC, I believe they’re called, this is the sort of secondary school exam that is administrative it’s like a high school exit examination. Hmm. The government is saying that for students who don’t score well on, on this exam, many of those students often end up getting into institutions of higher learning, where they’re getting sort of what we might call low value credentials.
[00:03:32] And those same students are the. Borrowing from the government to put themselves through programs, maybe in college, maybe, a skilled trade where they’re earning degrees or earning certificates or earning credentials that might not actually earn them a lot of money in the long run.
[00:03:49] So government’s answer is to cap the students, to cap the number of students who can actually. Get into these programs and take out loans to things there. [00:04:00] This is really interesting for a number of reasons. Number one. The national student’s union and the universities are pushing back hard against this saying it’s only going to deepen inequities in access and access to higher education in that the people who would be most effected most impacted by this law are already those who can’t afford the cost of higher education.
[00:04:22] That’s number one, but number two, they’re saying that. It’s not just about this inherent disadvantage they’re creating, but that folks should be able to go on and sort of choose the pathway that they want. Now, Jared, I just came today from, a webinar on teacher apprenticeships, a program that we’ve talked about that’s happening in Tennessee and another places.
[00:04:42] And it got me thinking about the really good work that’s going on in the areas of college and career pathways. And it seems to me that. Both parties are in England here, probably. Right. Like government’s probably right to be worried that people are taking on debt, taking out loans, and then using that money to go [00:05:00] on, to receive credentials that might not be high value and might not bring them any return on investment.
[00:05:06] And then they’re saddled with debt. But at the same time, should we really be saying to people like, no, you have low test scores. Like me maybe, therefore, , find another path. You, we’re not going to facilitate you looking at higher education. Now that’s a pretty black and white way of putting it.
[00:05:25] But it seems to me that the more interesting conversation here is really around how countries or in our case states figure out what credentials. Our high value. And I have to say, I have some friends, at Excel and ed and lots of other places who are doing great work on this, how you figure out what credentials are high value and how you align those high value credentials with the needs of the labor market, so that people can actually go out and get jobs.
[00:05:49] And then you help people understand. Here are the credentials that are actually going to help you earn this kind of money. Here are the credentials that are going to help you meet this goal in your life. And those might [00:06:00] not even be terminal. But micro-credentials or others. So, I really liked this article Gerard, because I think it points to a problem that we’re certainly grappling with here in the U S and in some states, but we’re going to be grappling with increasingly.
[00:06:15] And it also just was very interesting to me that this proposal to cap the number of students who could take on debt or apply to receive some of these credentials, seems like just a very bureaucrat. Answer to a problem where we could get really creative help people instead of systems. So that’s my story the week.
[00:06:35] I’m sure you have some thoughts about that. My friend, what do you think?
[00:06:38] GR: A few things come to mind? Matthew Chingos. , we had him on our show. , he, was coauthor of a book called game of loans. He’s also written a number of paper on loans. so we’re looking at what I believe now. 1.6 trillion. sitting on the books in terms of loan debt, , that’s more loan debt combined than credit cards and [00:07:00] auto loans.
[00:07:01] When you look at the number of low-income first-generation college students who enroll in non-credit bearing courses cold for remediation. So you go to a state school or a private school and you spend 1, 2, 3 semesters pain photo. And finding yourself possibly leaving and year that year, but semester three or four.
[00:07:26] And guess what, like you said, you now have loans, you got to pay the loans back, you left without a credential, a license or a degree. one way to address this is to tell students to seriously consider community college or junior college. The name will change depending upon what state you’re in. I was not a great standardized test taker, as I acknowledged that.
[00:07:48] I spent three years at the community college. I took the requisite courses I needed including a year and a half of remediation given how horrible I was in high school and then later [00:08:00] matriculated to where I am today. So I think that’s one thing we have to do in our reform space. We are so. focused on to, and through college, which I support, but we often think too college means four year only that it can include a career.
[00:08:20] Or a technical college for a particular trade. I think that’s something we should look at. Yes, there’ll be the loan dynamic, but you will come out of school faster. number two, we are telling too many students to go directly to college. When in fact they can finish high school, take 1, 2, 3 years off, get a job, save money, get practical experience.
[00:08:41] And guess what? Maybe your employer will decide to send you to college. Even if it’s part-time or pay for you to go online. Lastly, the English idea of putting a cap on how many students can take out loans, I think is interesting, our free market system [00:09:00] and choice and competition models of the U S may make that difficult.
[00:09:03] But I think that’s something worth looking at. So. I just think we’ve got to have a gut check with our children and with our colleges and just admit the fact we’re sending too many students to college for you prepare, we are lying to taxpayers. We’re lying to high school students who walk away with the high school diploma that we said was college and career ready.
[00:09:25] And then I’ll bet it’s not. we’ve overlooked. And unfortunately downplay the importance of community , colleges, and trade schools. Because even when I was in school, but definitely my mom and dad were in school that was cold for that, for those people. And you can put whoever you want into those people, but those people who have tried.
[00:09:44] Wait until your air conditioning goes out in the summer. Wait until your refrigerator breaks down, wait till your car deed servicing. These are well-paid jobs. They require a head and heart. So
[00:09:55] Cass: I
[00:09:55] Cara: have to say Gerard, we had a huge pipe that just burst in our newly finished [00:10:00] basement. And I’m with you.
[00:10:02] there was a moment yesterday when I got the price where I was thinking, boy, I shouldn’t have been a policy walk, but there you go.
[00:10:11] GR: Oh, and in fact, one thing I will end with, there are organizations that are working in partnerships with schools to identify exactly what. Workforce wants a one example, at least in Virginia, is it Virginia business, higher education console?
[00:10:25] It’s a collaboration of university presidents, Virginia chamber of commerce employers and others. And they’ve worked with their colleges to say, this is what we’re looking for is support internships. So I know in Virginia that’s one organization that people in their state should look for. And if it doesn’t exist, create one.
[00:10:43] All right. Well, my story is of course also education related, but a little different. So we’re going to talk about the big apple New York city. It not only is the largest city in terms of population in the United States. It has the largest school population in [00:11:00] the country. Over 1 million students are enrolled in New York public schools and they have a new mayor.
[00:11:07] The new mayor. Pretty clear, Eric Adams, that is someone who benefited from public schools in New York city, but who had to be bused to another part of town to get a better education? He’s pretty clear. I like charter schools. He’s pretty
[00:11:21] Cass: clear that he likes public choice.
[00:11:23] GR: He’s pretty clear that education matters.
[00:11:25] Well, we talk about New York and one of the things we often don’t know about, or if we do, we don’t talk about is that New York city is under a mayoral control model. And when we talk about state takeovers, in fact, we’ve spoke, I guess the last two or three shows about Boston and the wonderful, paper you put together on.
[00:11:44] Receivership is a model as you know, where the state will come in and take control over different aspects of the school. When you look at 1989 and fast forward to today, the 60 plus takeovers that have taken place in the country have primarily [00:12:00] been state-driven takeover. Whether it’s in New Jersey, which Jersey city or Newark, but a smaller model is the mayoral control model.
[00:12:10] New York’s one of them. So in 2002, the legislature said, we’re going to put together a group. We’re going to get this passed. And guess what? You’re going to have the opportunity to do three things prior to mayoral control, New York was governed by get this 32 bulls. And they said we’re going to get rid of the boards.
[00:12:30] 32 boards. Yes. Is it, Hey, we’ll get rid of the 32 boards. We’re going to put together. What is in place now? A 15 member education policy. nine are appointed by the mayor, each borough president, he or she gets to appoint one member and then the, , local cops will get subpoint another. So that’s how you get your 15 members and through all of this plus with the mayor, you also choose a chancellor.
[00:12:55] So that’s, it’s been in place since 2002, but this June, [00:13:00] the 10 o’clock lock is going to run out for mural control. So, but let’s fit. Just got to do something. New York governor says, Hey, she wants to extend it. , , mayor Eric Adams said, guess what? Not only do I want to extend it, but I also want to go to Albany to lobby for it.
[00:13:15] , it’s been mixed in terms of the impact that mural control has had over your achievement. Have there been achievement gains? 2002. Absolutely. Have there been questions about equity that continue to grow? Absolutely. The charter schools in the city. That’s where you have a ton of growth, a ton of achievement who are working with low income, poor students, many of them, black and brown.
[00:13:36] So there are still some mixed feelings about the important, but here to takeaways. I think our listeners at least consider number one. You have mural control prior to that you had 32 school boards running the city. You go back to the late 1960s, early 1970s, you had the community control movement in New York city.
[00:13:55] Big, very controversial, way of trying to basically [00:14:00] families, going up against teacher unions, mostly the AMT. And at that time saying we want more control of our school. More control of our curriculum. Arts are the things we’ve heard here. There were planes that the push was moving toward black power.
[00:14:13] There were claims that it was being antisemitic and everything. Metal, but Diane Ravitch wrote a book on the New York school city wars, which even goes back further. So for the listeners, just something to ponder is New York city as a system, simply ungovernable, no matter what model you have, if student achievement and equity are the two criteria you use to determine success and failure.
[00:14:39] And number two, are we saying that locally elected. School board members simply can’t govern. And therefore we have to move away from one principle of American democracy, which is elections or elected board or these elected body, and simply allow the appointed model to work because we saw something [00:15:00] similar in Chicago.
[00:15:01] We saw something. So we’ll learn in Washington DC. So just two questions to ponder. What are your thoughts?
[00:15:07] Cara: I think it’s really fascinating. And I think one of the things, I mean, I can remember if you would’ve asked me 15 years ago. I think I would’ve said of course mayoral control is the way to go and that’s what needs to happen.
[00:15:19] And, you know, sweet, we’ve seen so many examples of school boards asleep at the wheel for lack of a better way of putting it. But in the same token, both Merrill control and elected school boards. Even if the mayor, is appointed to be the person who is running the schools by the state legislature, suffer from the same, you’re constantly changing over.
[00:15:41] So, new elections mean new policies, mean somebody trying to make their mark mean will the new person coming in, carry out the old policies that might have a chance to work. If we sustain them over the longterm states suffer. Two at a state level, you know, when you don’t have long-term stable [00:16:00] state leadership, but it’s a really, really interesting question, Gerard, and it’s a troubling one, I mean, 32 school boards, something, something can’t be right about that.
[00:16:09] there’s a lot of competing interests, but I also think, it’s interesting to think about this notion of if the mayor is the person who’s overseeing the schools and we get this critique, then that the community has no say in what’s going on in the community has no power. I often wonder how much power we really.
[00:16:30] I think we have when we’re vesting our trust in a local school board, especially when it comes to chronically underperforming systems. And I think that’s really the key here. Like in some places, school boards work really well. And we don’t need to think about these other things, but it’s in places where you have a chronically underperforming system.
[00:16:52] Quite frankly, I don’t know if either thing is the answer and. That’s just a longer show altogether. So I [00:17:00] don’t, I don’t know my friend, but it’s a, really fascinating issue and something that, know we’re thinking about a lot here in Boston. Hence I wrote the paper that you referenced on receivership because we’ve been under mural control for quite some time.
[00:17:13] and at the end of the day, I’m not sure that the current mayor is going to do a darn thing about the, dismal state of BPS, for example, and that’s happening all over the county. All right, Gerard will coming up after this. We have got, a guest that I think is going to tell you a lot about why exactly you should be watching star wars, or I might be sorely mistaken.
[00:17:37] We’re going to be bringing on in just a moment. Professor Cass Sunstein. He is the Robert Wamsley university professor at Harvard law school and the author of the New York times bestselling book, the world, according to star wars. Get excited.
[00:17:52] We’ll be back in just a minute.[00:18:00] [00:19:00]
[00:19:05] Cara: Learning curve listeners, please help us welcome professor Cass Sunstein. He is the Robert Walmsley university professor at Harvard, where he is founder and director of the program on behavior economics and public health. He is the most cited law professor in the United States and likely internationally.
[00:19:22] He has served as administrator of the white house office of information and regulatory affairs. And as a member of the president’s review group on intelligence and communication technologies, he is the winner of the 2018 Hulbert prize. His many books include the best seller nudge, improving decisions about health, wealth, and happiness book.
[00:19:41] Simpler the future of government, hashtag Republic divided democracy in the age of social media. Oh my goodness. And of course the New York times bestseller Gerard Robinson’s favorite the world, according to star wars, a frequent advisor to governments all over the world. Professor [00:20:00] Cass, Sunstein. Welcome to the learning.
[00:20:02] Cass: Thank you so much for having
[00:20:03] Cara: me. We’re really happy to have you. So quite a bio there and you are here locally at Harvard. We’re happy to have you. I, myself am recording from Massachusetts. your bio says it all. You are an internationally recognized legal scholar and have been advisor to presidents and other heads of states.
[00:20:22] we want to know about this recent bestseller, the world, according to star wars. Could you tell us about it and talk about why is it, I guess it has been 45 years. Wow. And I remembered them all because I was alive for all of those years. talk about how, why after 45 years these movies, why are. Still watching star wars after all this time.
[00:20:43] but your organisms, , we should say,
[00:20:44] Cass: well, that was actually the question that inspired me to do the book. What is it about star wars that resonates and has kept people interested in sometimes obsessed for all this time? I think there are a couple of things. One [00:21:00] is about freedom of choice. And so the great George Lucas’ trilogy, the original one was focused on the fact that.
[00:21:08] All of us, whether we are Skywalkers or not, encounter times when we can do something. good or not, or kind of grave or not. And that connects with everybody. there’s also a theme about redemption that, even if we did something wrong, maybe really wrong, maybe a little bit wrong, we can do something, right.
[00:21:32] We might be able to make the wrong. Well, we might be able to do something that in our own life history makes us feel that some sort of balance was corrected a balance in the force. If the worst person in the galaxy that is antiquing by Walker at our theater, give or take an emperor. And in his closing moment, turn to good and repudiate his life’s horribleness and save [00:22:00] his son.
[00:22:00] Well, then the rest of us can maybe do something, not quite like that, but something positive. Also there’s a theme in the movie about parents and kids, whether you’re the kid or the parent, the parent will lay down his or her life for you in all probability. Even if the parent isn’t perfect and the kid will kind of do the same and that connects maybe with some of our group that’s, feelings and that’s kind of good.
[00:22:30] Also the movies are really fun and some of their giddiness is contagious. Even if the visitation really, forgive me. Mr. Lupus, occasionally.
[00:22:44] Cara: do have a favorite. What’s your favorite?
[00:22:49] Cass: The empire strikes back is the best.
[00:22:53] Cara: Oh, of course. It’s the best. I couldn’t agree more.
[00:22:56] Cass: That’s the best of the now 6,000 movies.
[00:22:59] [00:23:00] That’s probably the best movie ever made. It’s incredible. It’s ranked in the Shakespeare, maybe about Shakespeare. Okay. I’m exaggerating the empire. I think it’s really, really good. Well,
[00:23:10] Cara: unfortunately I think a lot of Americans might actually recognize lines from the empire strikes back, but not Shakespeare.
[00:23:16] So we will, take what we can get. I could ask you more questions such as who is your favorite character, but I think that we should probably, we should probably move on. So you talked about , the cultural reasons, the human reasons, maybe why we identify. Star wars, but can you talk a little bit about, I mean, this movie was really going to be a flop , people didn’t believe in 1977, that this was going to have, nobody could have predicted it would be the pop culture phenomenon that it continues to be.
[00:23:47] in 2020, the estimated value of the franchise was $70 billion. What is it about the cinematic force that is star wars? What is it about, I mean, if you compare. Viewing, for [00:24:00] example, the empire strikes back today, versus when we were children, it’s obviously a different cinematic experience. what was it at the beginning that grabbed us, even when we didn’t have the technology to make space look believable and what continues to grab us as the franchise grows.
[00:24:17] Cass: Okay. So it’s a fantastic question. So, in terms of the shocking success of star wars, let’s try. Three hypotheses about amazingness, and forgive me for venturing hypotheses, but let’s, go for that. Number one, is it fit with the times that in a time of turmoil and upheaval to have something so joyful , and was that was gonna work?
[00:24:44] that’s the one, the number two, is it. , really lucky and theme three was then it’s cinematically and otherwise, so incredible destined for success. okay. On the first fitting with the times, you get [00:25:00] to your question about the experience of star wars. Really soon, say box on that house, that that hypothesis could be ventured for anything that’s exceeded.
[00:25:11] Taylor swift Harry Potter, prob Joe Biden, everything there’s nothing. And, maybe, but, good luck proving it. in terms of amazingness, I think the movie, the original, what is now called the news. Wasn’t it. And so that’s definitely part of the picture, so to speak. And I remember I saw it in real time and just it’s visually, even now I think less so than at the time.
[00:25:41] so spectacular, nothing people had ever seen before. So in the first scenes you see ships and they look real. Knows what looking real would even be like the human eye thinks that looks real and the motion of the ship, the big shift going over the old ship just seems. [00:26:00] So people never seen anything like that before.
[00:26:03] And even the letters as the plot is, started. Uh, people hadn’t really seen that in this spectacular setting before. And so it was kind of the best imaginable overload that you could see. And then the characters were even early, really iconic. There’s Luke Skywalker, the kind of kid. at least boys, maybe girls also identify all like unaffected as kind of normal life.
[00:26:31] And then you’re called by something greater than you could imagine when you succeed. And princess Leia, who is the bravest and smartest of the wall. Feminist icon who never loses her wets. And, it’s the only one that really knows completely what she’s doing. And then there’s the near be well, non solo who, boys kind of aspired to be.
[00:26:53] Cause he was the coolest. And then there’s the best father you could imagine. It also turns out to be magical. [00:27:00] So the cinematic amazingness plus. Iconic figures who are based on, in some sense in Chris’s amazing unconscious, narratives that go back to the Bible and the Homer and the, he connected all of them with some of that.
[00:27:16] the law hypothesis, which is the most deflating I think has true. Not that it diminishes the amazingness of the visual and the amazingness of the characters and the largeness of the plots, or the fact that the themes about redemption and freedom of choice and the struggle between good and evil.
[00:27:38] These are, humanity’s biggest themes are in a package that you’re eating popcorn. In the midst of, and did that? that’s simple, but it did get the benefit of lock. That is, it got a lot of early popularity. It got some great, very public, , reviews. and, to say that it’s amazing, this was [00:28:00] enough to make it a comic.
[00:28:01] there are no that needed to act hit, some streets in a way. That kind of corresponds to what happened with Beatles. What happened with Taylor swift for app and Elvis Presley were happening to great. And all of the ones I just mentioned are fantastic. and choose your pickup, make it, make a pick about who’s the most fantastic, but there are plenty of fantastic things that you’ve never heard of because they didn’t get the benefit.
[00:28:25] And the book tries to tell the tale of the kind of serendipity that turns star wars from not merely an amazing achievement, but a , , culturally central financial.
[00:28:37] Cara: Yeah, never thought I would hear Taylor swift discussed in the same sentences with star wars, but I get it. , and I appreciate it.
[00:28:43] And I have to say, thinking about those scrolling words. , at the beginning I took my eight year old son that summer to see empire strikes back and a drive-thru movie. And he was mesmerized. He thought it, you know, it didn’t look. Nearly as technologically impressive to him as it did to me when I [00:29:00] was, seeing that movie as a kid, but Boyle boy, he thought that was pretty neat.
[00:29:04] And how many Halloweens did I dress up as princess Leia? I can’t even count. in your book, you talk about the gray. The Campbell, he’s author of the 1949 books, the hero with a thousand faces and he called George Lucas. Obviously the man behind star wars. He said that he was Campbell said that Lucas was his greatest student.
[00:29:26] Campbell tells us so much about myths and legends and adventures. What is it about star wars and the lessons about the hero’s journey? that Campbell talks about. can you help us understand that? Yeah.
[00:29:41] Cass: Link, this was greatly influenced by Joseph Campbell. So if you take, the hero in meth or religion or Marvel comics or DC comics, it often has exactly the same central narrative ingredients.
[00:29:57] So it might be in. [00:30:00] a simple version of what Campbell elaborates in detail, there’s someone, who is, having a normal life and is young, who is called to, action or ordeal. Achievement by someone who is a parental figure and that person is large and important. And the person initially says, no, I’m not going to do that.
[00:30:27] And haven’t we all at one point, let’s say between the age of 10 and 20. , maybe between the age of 10 and 70 said, no, I’m going to do that. so it really resonates. But then at some points there’s some loss or some event, which makes the person to the hero say, okay, I’m with you. I’m going to try.
[00:30:48] And then the person faces a terrible ordeal and is tested, might in the process, lose the elder sponsor. Let’s call it like Obi wan Kenobi or Mike in the process. Be [00:31:00] injured or hurt in some way, but faces tragedy and difficulty and maybe fails. Then the person in the midst of the ordeal and the trial, overcoming.
[00:31:12] And succeeds. And I’m thinking now kind of, of Jessica Jones, there was a great TV series about Jessica Jones, which is really tracking, , the hero of a thousand faces. And then, uh, becomes transfigured in some sense and enlarge and either returns home or returns to some, role, which partakes of home in some way, some piece of the place where hero resides is home.
[00:31:40] And these various steps are traced, in the air of a thousand faces by Joseph Campbell in great detail. And. the Star Wars films really track that. In fact, what makes it amazing is that they’re tracked both for Anaconda and for loop in their different ways. And the[00:32:00] underrated prequels, I say with, fear, uncertainty.
[00:32:04] I’m going to go for it. The underrated prequels have the hero’s journey for Anakin and. No, they’re not perfect. Movies in charge are banks, maybe not the best, but it really is the hero’s journey. And I can, ends up by the end of the second trilogy tracking something like what Joseph Campbell had in mind.
[00:32:24] GR: So I’d like to shift us into a conversation about civics. So when the war between the democratic ideas of the galactic Republic, and then you have the autocratic dictatorship of the galactic empire. It frames a larger political narrative about star wars. In your book, you discuss Jedi Knights as Jeffersonian style guardians of the Republic, defenders of an ordered Liberty and rebels against Imperial tyranny.
[00:32:51] Could you explain how all of that falls into a larger, civic educational lesson that we today could learn from
[00:32:58] Cass: completely? [00:33:00] So take at the human level. As opposed to the political level, star wars to be about freedom of choice under conditions of uncertainty. And that’s, it’s theme for Luke and for Annika and for Leah and for obiwan.
[00:33:18] , and basically everybody. That we have freedom and difficult to see the future is, as Yoda says. so there Lucas plays brilliantly with the theme of destiny and, , pre-ordained stuff, but in the end, the movies reject that and it’s all about, you got to choose. And Lucas’s incredibly articulate and moving about this as are some of his collaborators where each of us, like today, we have a choice to make about whether to be kind or not whether to be, disrespectful or not, whether to be.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] The hero a little bit in the eyes of at least someone or at least a frat and that’s everywhere. So that’s the micro level to your point at the political level. Lucas does exactly the same thing and the beating heart of democracy as he sees it is of freedom of choice. And self-government, by those who are.
[00:34:21] populating a nation or a galaxy or a planet that it can be us and our choice where we go, or we can basically, be cowed or recede and let, freedom die, to thunderous applause as the underrated prequels describe. And Lucas had very much in mind, especially in the prequels, but it’s also there.
[00:34:45] And the original trilogy, the rise of authoritarianism and he had a sense of its seductive appeal. both it’s in some ways erotic appeal. That’s one of the creepy, really good [00:35:00] features of the first six movies and also it’s, appeal to the human spirit. Some of which says, , you figure.
[00:35:09] Freedom is, it’s tough to bear. And also I’m kind of mad and I want you to punish maybe people who are my fellow citizens, but certainly to keep me safe. that play between the individual level freedom and the political level freedom is what makes , these movies, which seem really fun. also.
[00:35:31] GR: George Lucas has called star wars. The tragedy of Darth Vader. Would you talk about the rise, fall or redemption of Skywalker from gifted slave and Jedi Knight to a character whose fear pain and anger turned him into a dehumanized mechanism of evil before finally being saved by his son.
[00:35:52] Cass: Yeah, that’s fantastic.
[00:35:53] Thank you. So the fact that Lucas called it the tragedy of Darth Vader, I think that’s [00:36:00] very, actually very moving. And if you saw the original movie, that is, new hope who would have thought. But that’s what the whole thing would be about. So Darth Vader is mannequin Skywalker with a little boy. who’s taken care of by his beloved mother.
[00:36:18] he suffers, excruciating loss that is of his mother at the hands of evil. Thinks he’s going to suffer or it’s not for the loss of his beloved and it’s fear of loss as you say, that turns him and the emperor. I think in a way, the personification of something that hits all of us, in life at some point, which is a lack of control.
[00:36:44] And vulnerability to the loss of what mysterious to us and how do you respond to that? And you can respond to that by, , making common cause with others who are mortal and at risk and [00:37:00] accepting your own vulnerability. Or you can put on some kind of armor and try to. destroy others who are maybe, threatening people you care about, or just in the way.
[00:37:13] And so when Antigone Skywalker becomes Darth Vader, at the moment of choice, it’s the fear of loss that, pushes him and the emperor plays on that pushes him to evil. And any of us who’s felt rage or maybe has, actually. At some point almost hitched or actually hit someone or imagined it, maybe that’s starts the Darth Vader at us.
[00:37:39] So the idea that, that is in each of us as is good, is, not false and how we react to our deepest vulnerability is what makes for. the generality let’s call out of the tragedy of Darth Vader and what I may be loved most of all [00:38:00] about the star wars movies, the original six is that, the third of the prequels, the last scene.
[00:38:07] Play exactly the same as the third of the original trilogy, where in the third of the prequels and akin, isn’t exactly the same situation that we had previously seen Luke with the same person, the emperor. And in both cases, they are, as you say, struggling with the prospect of the loss of what they care about most , their own vulnerability and the vulnerability they care about.
[00:38:32] And. And a can chooses to go to the emperor and Luke chooses not to, partly because he trusts and loves his father and it can didn’t have that.
[00:38:44] GR: So this is the only person on this call who hasn’t seen star wars, even I’ve heard the term, the force, and we know it as a supernatural energy bonding to the galaxy, but it also.
[00:38:57] both good and evil characters, [00:39:00] it So an aspect of it that looks at spiritual strengths and extra ordinary deeds. Could you talk to us about the varied mythical, and philosophical origins of the forest and how star wars was able to bring that together? in a science fiction movie, that’s often better known for technology spaceships and
[00:39:18] Cass: Yeah, thanks for that. So, I’ll tell you a story. So the one person I was terrified of, reading my book was George Lucas. I knew him a tiny, tiny bed and never talked to him about the book and the writing. And after I wrote it, I saw him at a huge party. And he came up to me and I was hoping that behind me was Harrison Ford or someone that his movies, but sure enough, he was coming up to me and he said, he read my book and he actually liked it.
[00:39:53] And I got to spend a lot of time with him and he gave me a book. In which he signed it. May the force be [00:40:00] with you. And I can’t tell you how much I love that because George Lucas has no errors. There’s nothing fake about him. I’m sure he’s signed 10,000 books. May the force be with you? And he didn’t say, you know, Cass, I liked your book.
[00:40:15] You did a good job. He said, may the force we went here. I thought there was a beauty in the robustness of that, but also for the. 10,000 times he signed it. He meant it every time. I’m confident. , , the force, has deliberate mystery in it. As you say, it’s the opposite of technology. It’s old rather than new and it’s as the mythology of star wars described.
[00:40:40] It’s a force that connects all of us, and whatever your religious convictions may be. We can see that as in some sense, true. If you meet a stranger, there’s something that’s passing between you and that person. , what it is. No, one’s in one sentence it’s [00:41:00] wildly mysterious. And another sense it’s kind of very Monday night.
[00:41:04] they to understand the brain can explain it in either case it’s really cool. And that, that force, when you meet a stranger or someone, who’s a friend and there’s interaction that is warm and mutually supportive, and that is binding. but also if you meet a stranger or maybe a friend, there’s something in there, that’s a little edgy and maybe scared and that’s there.
[00:41:32] So, you can take it as a myth, but you can also take it as a play on what human life is actually like.
[00:41:40] Cara: Well, professor Cass, Sunstein, thank you so much for joining us today. it’s been a real pleasure, , thinking about star wars , and learning about exactly why, our society loves this franchise so much.
[00:41:52] And think that tomorrow, We’re going to get them to watch. we’re going to work on it. Thanks for your time today. And please take good
[00:41:58] Cass: care of, thank you [00:42:00] so much. It was a great pleasure for me and to you may the force, as they say with you, I was
[00:42:06] hoping you
[00:42:07] Cara: would say that may the force be with you too?
[00:42:09] Professor
[00:42:10] take care.[00:43:00] [00:44:00]
[00:44:29] Cara: As always, we’re going to end with our tweet of the week, this one from education week and the headline is students are behaving badly in class. Excessive screen time may be to blame. So after reading the article linked to this tweet, which points to consequences of certain types of screen time, I think it’s important to point out such as, , teachers reporting that students who have excessive screen time, especially those who are doing things like being on social media or doing non-educational [00:45:00] things on their tablets, computers, other than.
[00:45:03] I was showing an increased, inability to manage stress. obviously, anybody who ever takes their iPhone to bed knows that screen time can interfere with your sleep. , and in that students just generally, have a hard time paying attention. In fact, the article says that the research suggests that some students might be misidentified as having, for example, attention deficit disorder.
[00:45:24] When really, if they’d would just cut back on some of their screen time, especially unproductive screen time, it would be a benefit. Yeah. Sounded to find out that your average American eight to 12 year old is watching, I think between five and eight hours a day on their screens. And that does not include what they’re doing at school on screens, which really blew my mind.
[00:45:43] two things it made me simultaneously think. Thank goodness. I don’t think my kids are in their screens that often, but also maybe my kids should just not be on their. Outside of educational materials at all, except for the occasional Celtics game, which I feel like I cannot deprive [00:46:00] my children of so Gerard, we’re going to be back together again next week.
[00:46:06] And please listeners, don’t forget to join us next week. We are going to be talking to professor Nicholas Lemann, former Dean of Columbia university, school of journalism as always. It’ll be a great one Gerard until then. We’ll be waiting to hear if you watch star. And you have a good
[00:46:22] GR: one. May the force be with
[00:46:24] Cara: you always, may the force be with you?
[00:46:26] My friend.[00:47:00] [00:48:00]
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