Worcester's Tim Murray on Massachusetts' Voc-Tech Schools

The Learning Curve Tim Murray

Alisha Searcy: [00:00:00] Well, hello everybody, and welcome back to the Learning Curve podcast. I’m your co-host, Alisha Thomas Searcy, CEO of Center for Strong Public Schools, and joined by our other co-host, Dr. Albert Cheng, from the Ohio State University. Did I get that right?

Albert Cheng: You did. No one’s checking though, but you did get that right.

Alisha Searcy: Well, that’s important, to say your name correctly.

Albert Cheng: That’s right.

Alisha Searcy: How are you? How are things going?

Albert Cheng: Oh, not bad. The weather is turning co- I mean, fall. Can you believe it? It’s the end of September. We’re hitting October, and-

Alisha Searcy: Yeah …

Albert Cheng: yeah, the s- the seasons- Fall is falling … the year goes. I know.

Alisha Searcy: Yes. Well, it’s starting to look beautiful outside, so it’s certainly one thing I look forward to.[00:01:00]

We’ve got a great show this week. Very much looking forward to our guest, Tim Murray, who’s the former lieutenant governor of Massachusetts- Mm … among other things, and so very much looking forward to talking to him. But before we get to that, we’ve got some news articles that we’ve gotta jump into. Albert, do you wanna go first?

Albert Cheng: Sure. You know, I found one that was run on the BBC, and I don’t know if this is gonna be, like, a world record for most remote location for news, but the news article comes to us from the island of Guernsey, which is one of the islands in the Channel Islands. So I don’t know, maybe this feels random that I picked this article, but anyway, it caught my eye because the headline is Music Sessions for Children With Additional Needs.

So it looks like some folks are getting together to create this music program to offer lessons and community around music for students with special needs and disabilities. And so, you know, Alisha, from time to time, we really like to just feature [00:02:00] some really positive, encouraging stuff, and feature- Yeah

some of the efforts that folks are undertaking to expand educational access, but also to be a positive force in the communities. And so I think this is one. I’m a big fan of music education. You know, I see the possibility for that for students with special needs. So this is exactly another one of them that I think is worth highlighting.

Alisha Searcy: Absolutely, and I agree with you. We definitely wanna highlight positive stories, and as a person who has an arts background, I am particularly excited about this. I just think, you know, music in particular can be so powerful as a tool to reach people across all different lines, and so I love this and love that they’re doing this work.

I’m excited to see the outcomes, and frankly, wouldn’t we like to see more arts in all of our schools?

Albert Cheng: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And look, Alisha, you know, everyone knows I’m a math guy, and there’s a intimate connection between math and music, you know. I mean, the ancients kind of put them all together in the quadrivium, if you will.

So music is fundamentally tied to mathematics, too, so there’s something else going on there [00:03:00] as well.

Alisha Searcy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and maybe we need to do a little bit more music to increase our math scores.

Albert Cheng: You know, there’s something to it. I… The ancients thought that was true, and I believe it. As someone that loves music and math, I believe it.

Alisha Searcy: That makes a lot of sense. Well, thank you for that. The article I wanna talk about comes from the New York Post. It’s an opinion piece by Ian Rowe, and of course, we know Ian. It’s entitled Nikole Hannah-Jones Accidentally Gave Us a Vital Lesson on School Choice. And so if you are paying any attention to the world of education and opinion pieces and essays in the last seven days, you have heard about, maybe read for yourself- This essay that Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote, if you’re not familiar with Nikole Hannah-Jones, she’s the author of 1619.

She’s a Pulitzer Prize winner, and she does a lot of work around race and different things. And so she wrote this essay because her 16-year-old daughter got in the car maybe a year or two ago, I [00:04:00] guess, I’m guessing, basically saying, “Do you know how low-performing my school is?” And if you know how low-performing it is, why would you send me there?

So Hannah Jones goes on to write this essay about the intentional choice that she and her husband made as people of means, lots of resources and privilege. She even says in the essay that they had enough money to write one check that would surpass what the entire PTA would raise at that school. So we’re talking about a family with means and access, but making a conscious choice to send their one daughter to a predominantly African American school that is also low-income and low-performing.

And so we know what research says. When you have low-resourced schools and you pack that with poverty, there are a lot of challenges that come out of that. And so, not [00:05:00] surprising, her daughter did not get a great experience, and she and her husband believed that their mere presence would make the school better for all of the kids because they would be able to access the superintendent or the principal.

If things weren’t right, they’d be able to fix it. And so I’m gonna leave my opinions about that particular essay to the side, ’cause I have to tell you, Albert, it’s complicated when you talk about parents of means who are making decisions, you know, intentionally about sending their kids to a school that they know is not performing well and just what they believe they’ll be able to change.

I have some very strong opinions about that, that I’m gonna leave out- Mm-hmm … for the sake of this conversation. But what is important here, and what Ian Rowe talks about, in particular, in his opinion piece, is that what she is doing in her essay is really talking about the need for choice, and that’s what I wanna touch on just for a moment.

And I appreciate Ian’s points in this piece, where while she is literally choosing to send her [00:06:00] kid to a low-performing school, that in itself is a choice. And he is arguing that what she really should recognize is that every parent deserves to have a choice. What I would add to that is the parents who don’t have the resources, who do feel forced to send their kids to schools that are low-performing, it’s because they don’t have other options, and I would argue, particularly among public school options.

Or if they do have private school options, sometimes it’s not the schools that they would want. And so at the end of the day, we talk about school choice on this show a lot, and I just think this conversation is really important. I think Hannah Jones’s essay is important to call out some of the complicated things happening in public education.

The one thing that I will say is it is very unfortunate to me That someone thinks that a singular family can make systemic change in an entire school or school system. Like, don’t [00:07:00] sacrifice your children is what I’m saying. But we also at the same time have to say, how do we use those resources, your privilege, your access, to improve the system?

And I don’t think sending your kid to a low-performing school is the way to do that, but how do you use your platform? How do you advocate for policies, which is what I do every day with Center for Strong Public Schools, to change the system for all kids so that not only do all parents have choice, but also that public schools are actually working the way they’re supposed to regardless of a kid’s zip code.

So again, we could talk all day, and I mean, the essays, the think pieces, the videos on social media have been exploding for the last week. But I think it’s good because we have to have these conversations, and we have to make sure, again, that all of our public schools are high quality and that families have access to them.

Albert Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alisha, thanks for sharing all that. I mean, a lot of points to think about, and certainly I know that Nikole Hannah-Jones’ piece has prompted lots of [00:08:00] reflection and lots of those- Yes … think pieces. You know, I, I found other ones besides the, the one that you highlighted by our friend Ian Rowe.

But yeah, we could go on and on. I think we’ll just kinda leave it there and, and let the listeners pursue this and think through it, and I hope they continue some of the conversations that this all sparked.

Alisha Searcy: Exactly, and you know we like a good dialogue, so let it keep going. And speaking of good dialogue, I’m looking forward to our guest today.

We have with us Tim Murray, who is president and CEO of the Worcester Regional Chamber of Commerce. And so when we come back, we’re going to hear from this former lieutenant governor and have a great conversation about vocational education. Stay tuned.

Tim Murray became president and CEO of the Worcester Regional Chamber of Commerce in June of 2013. Prior to the chamber, Tim was elected lieutenant governor of the [00:09:00] Commonwealth of Massachusetts in 2006 following a historic grassroots campaign alongside Governor Deval Patrick. As lieutenant governor, he worked to promote job growth, delivered landmark reforms in ethics, education, pensions, and the transportation system.

Tim led the Patrick-Murray administration’s negotiation with CSX regarding the historic acquisition of tracks across the Commonwealth and facilitated Massport’s acquisition of Worcester’s regional airport. As lieutenant governor, Tim chaired the National Lieutenant Governors Association. He was a former three-term mayor of Worcester, New England’s second-largest city.

Under Tim’s leadership, Worcester experienced unprecedented progress with $1 billion of new economic development projects, such as Gateway Park and City Square, that are helping to transform an older industrial city into one that is well-positioned to lead and grow in the new economy. Tim attended public schools in Worcester and St.

John’s High School in Shrewsbury. He studied at Fordham University in New [00:10:00] York City and put himself through Western New England College School of Law. Welcome to the show, Tim.

Tim Murray: Well, it’s good to be here.

Alisha Searcy: So under your leadership as mayor of Worcester, Massachusetts, and then the lieutenant governor of Massachusetts, your city and state became a national model in voc-tech education.

Could you briefly talk to us about your background, some of your formative educational experiences, and some of the story behind how Worcester became a manufacturing and voc-tech hub in New England?

Tim Murray: I would say, you know, in any of these things, it is a collective effort, but in particular, my time as a city councilor when the vote was taken to merge the autonomous Worcester Vocational Technical High School into the Worcester Public Schools, which was a controversial vote.

That was part of kind of a collective effort to build the new vocational technical high school to replace a building that was almost 100 years old at the time. One of the reasons for that [00:11:00] merger of the two systems is it would allow a larger reimbursement rate from the state in terms of building the new school.

And then to put on the additional bells and whistles, there was business community leadership that came together to raise money so that the school, when it opened, could really have everything it needed in terms of the particular vocational-technical Chapter 74 programs, is what we call them here. They would have all the most up-to-date equipment and trust funds, if you will, to modernize and update that equipment as time went on

Alisha Searcy: Makes sense.

So here’s something that’s interesting to me. Over the last twenty-five to thirty years, the Massachusetts voc-tech schools have been the group of preexisting schools that use the nineteen ninety-three Massachusetts ed reform laws accountability measures, MCAS testing standards and school choice better than any group of public schools in the state.

Could you talk about how the Massachusetts voc-techs use the tools [00:12:00] of Massachusetts ed reform to benefit their students and the regional economy?

Tim Murray: Yeah. And just to add on to that last question you mentioned, you know, Worcester for a century was really a manufacturing city. That was the sector that really carried the region economically, and that transitioned, you know, over the last thirty to forty years, adding in healthcare as a major sector of the economy.

But I think because of that, there was kind of always an appreciation for vocational technical education, career and technical education as a worthy and important pathway. And I think that is part of the reason why there was such a collaborative effort in building a new vocational technical school among the political leadership as well as the business community and educational leadership.

But in terms of ed reform in nineteen ninety-three, my sense in talking to educators and principals and superintendents is that was a new era of accountability. And for some of the vocational technical schools, this was kind of new [00:13:00] ground and that they were gonna be measured and compared to the traditional comprehensive high schools, which were maybe seen by some as the more elite academic places as opposed to the school where you go to get a trade.

And I think out of the gate, those vocational school superintendents and principals and educators took the MCAS serious and really, you know, worked to make sure that there was that accountability among themselves and with their students to meet those milestones as well. Because generally speaking, on the vocational technical side, our voc-tech schools, historically and to this day, are held in high regard by the various industry sectors where their kids go on to.

So interestingly enough, the success of our voc-tech schools with the MCAS exams in terms of students meeting or exceeding the standards that the state set, parents and kids began to take notice of that and demand for the vocational technical schools, both from an [00:14:00] academic but also the vocational technical program side.

They became very desirable, and currently we have a waiting list that some estimate between six and ten thousand students looking to enter voc-tech programs here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Alisha Searcy: That is incredible. Wow. So while you were mayor and lieutenant governor, Worcester Tech has become a national leader in urban vocational technical reform, and I think you just spoke to that.

Can you talk about the Worcester-based vocational tech school leaders like Dr. Sheila Harrity and the relationship you forged between the political and business communities, organized labor and higher education in supporting the city’s voc-tech or school reforms?

Tim Murray: You know, I’ve known Sheila pretty much my whole life, and she was a Division 1 basketball player at Providence College, so she’s used to competing at a high level.

In the neighborhood where we grew up together, during the summers, she’d be playing in the men’s pickup games with a number of [00:15:00] men who played in the Division 1 programs throughout the Northeast, and she more than held her own. So Sheila’s a competitor, right? And she wants the best for kids. That’s the starting point.

But then as I said, she’s a competitor, and I think she really built that team approach at Worcester Tech that we’re gonna support you as teachers, frontline teachers, instructors on the vocational technical side, but in return, you know, we’re gonna expect a full commitment to moving our kids forward in their particular trade Chapter 74 area and on the academic end.

And that’s contagious, and that can be infectious with that positive energy and expectations, and that’s what they were able to create. Kyle Brenner, her successor, also continued that and is now the Superintendent of Vocational Technical Education at Bay Path, which is a local vocational technical school in the region of Central Massachusetts.

So I think it was that competitive spirit, but also a competitive spirit with the end goal of great results for our kids.

Alisha Searcy: [00:16:00] Absolutely. While you were Lieutenant Governor, Worcester Tech had VIP visits from the likes of Education Secretary Arne Duncan, President Barack Obama, and the late U.S. Secretary of State General Colin Powell.

Could you talk about how those national figures were drawn to the urban voc-tech successes in Worcester and what it was like having your leadership honored at the White House and nationwide?

Tim Murray: It really was, you know, a feather in the cap, but I think, you know, as soon as the school was built, a number of communities across the country, just given the history of vocational technical education, when a majority of the buildings across the country were built, this was one of the first kind of new modern vocational technical schools in this kind of century, I guess I would say.

And, you know, with that, a lot of interest from people coming across the country. And then as we’ve discussed this, the school really excelled academically and success in expanding some of the Chapter 74 program, you know, word gets out. And then Sheila, I think, was [00:17:00] always very smart in reaching out to bring speakers in to recognize and celebrate the school’s success, but also motivate students about what they can be and what they can accomplish, and also educators as well.

So I think a lot of this goes to that. You know, having a strategy around individually and collectively setting goals for a school and associating yourself with people who’ve overachieved and overcome obstacles because, you know, in an urban school system, oftentimes kids come from economically disadvantaged families.

They might come from homes where English was not, you know, the, the first language. They come from backgrounds and places where there’s not a tradition of going to school. So having the speakers like you just mentioned, you know, who have stories of overcoming challenges and odds is something that I think their example resonates with the kids, and it’s certainly an exciting opportunity for faculty to be recognized as well.

Alisha Searcy: Absolutely. Thank you.

Albert Cheng: Well, Tim, I just wanna add [00:18:00] my welcome, and thanks for being on the show with us. So I wanna come back to a point that you’ve been making quite a bit, which is the academic gains that voc-tech students have been experiencing, and we often don’t think of voc-tech and, and academics together, at least we don’t always.

So could you talk about how you guys do it? How did you build a voc-tech culture that alternates and integrates instructional time between vocational education and academics? And how has this led to your model becoming a national model?

Tim Murray: I think the model in Massachusetts at our vocational technical schools has been fairly consistent over the years in the sense that students come in their freshman year, they engage in exploratory where they, that first part of the year till probably January, they get a chance to spend a week or so in some of the different shops or Chapter seventy-four vocational technical programs to get some exposure.

Then they try to pick the top three that they would [00:19:00] like, and then, you know, based upon space and attendance and grades early on, they get placed into the, that particular program. And really, from that point on, there’s a dual approach in terms of focusing on the academics, learning the elements and technical aspects of a particular trade, and how they interrelate the academic component, the theory, and then the practice of actually doing a skill.

And so that is constantly being reinforced, and I think as, you know, research on different ways that people learn, you know, some people are hands-on learners, others may be more like theoretical learners, but this brings those two together, and they reinforce o- one another. I think that staying with your basics or your fundamentals has always been a piece of this.

But then it goes back to, you know, when the MCAS came in and there was a common standard in which we were measuring students across the state at different [00:20:00] levels. I think it reinforces that the model of learning at our vocational technical schools, really, in my personal opinion, should be, in some shape, manner, or form, utilized at every school.

And, uh, that opinion, I think, is gaining traction in the sense that the fastest-growing part of vocational technical education in the Commonwealth at the moment is our traditional comprehensive high schools petitioning the state and submitting proposals to add vocational technical programs at the comprehensive high schools because kids and families want it, and it’s been a successful model in terms of how students can have a real-world Skill and credential, but at the same time get a quality education kind of on the traditional academic side.

So it’s a model that is expanding, and I think it helps create a more resilient student, and it also makes them more work-ready, whether they pursue that trade or not. And I wanted to [00:21:00] just address, you know, one thing that you asked in the question in terms of this perception of voc-tech education. Albert, there had been this perception that, which is really unfortunate and unfounded, that kids who maybe weren’t cut out academically went to voc-tech schools.

And again, we’ve learned through a lot of different research and stuff that there’s different ways people learn, and that doesn’t mean they’re any less intelligent. But there’s been that perception, and so as those vocational technical schools have become more competitive in Massachusetts, and this waiting list has grown, you know, there are some people say, “Well, kids who used to get into voc-tech schools can’t get into them now.”

And they say, “Well, we should be putting them in.” My opinion, I think the opinion of, of many that’s growing is any student that wants access to a voc-tech program should get it. But the demands of the workplace today, I think demand– And we know students as they grow up and go through their career, eighty, ninety percent of them are gonna have multiple jobs during the course of their [00:22:00] lifetime.

And again, a vocational technical high school education and a credential and a diploma, along with an industry-recognized credential, just makes them so much more versatile. They can adapt. They’re just so much more prepared. So again, we want all kids to have that, and that idea of universal access is something a group that I w- played a role in helping start here in Massachusetts, the Alliance for Voc-Tech Education, that’s what we’re pushing and advocating for in terms of expanding seats.

Albert Cheng: Well, yeah, I mean, speaking of expanding seeds, and thanks for your answer there. And speaking of expanding seeds, I mean, you’ve mentioned these long wait lists a number of times now, and so clearly you guys seem to be doing something right. But I wanna give you a chance to unpack that a bit. I mean, you’ve talked about the academic success, but could you say more about how the Massachusetts Voc Tech model has served the students in terms of actually connecting them with post-secondary education or actually connecting [00:23:00] them with careers in the regional economy?

Tell us a bit more about what that looks like and then what you guys do to help them with that.

Tim Murray: Right. So, you know, in Massachusetts, every Voc Tech school or Chapter 74 program has a program advisory committee for each one of the vocational technical programs or trades, and then each one of those program advisories are part of a broader group called the General Advisory Committee that meets at the school two or three times a year for an overall update of the school, what it’s accomplished, what its goals are, and then they usually break off where the businesses and, and adults who have an interest, say, in a particular trade, electrical or plumbing or biotech, then go to the classroom with the teachers.

They talk about what’s happening in the field in terms of equipment and trends and needs, and the educators, instructors share about what they’re facing, and there’s just a consistent and regular interface with the business community. And then that leads into what begins to [00:24:00] happen at the end of their junior year during– and then during their senior year, that, you know, many of the students then they have one week of academics in related theory, which is in related theory is, you know, an academic curriculum with elements that are related to their particular trade.

And then the next week after that, they are out in the field, you know, working as a carpenter, working if they’re in hospitality, working at a local restaurant or hotel Both my daughters graduated from Worcester Technical High School. You know, one of them, who’s in nursing school now, is in allied health.

She, her senior year, worked every other week and got paid 30, 35 hours a week at a local large hospital here in Worcester, St. Vincent Hospital. I can tell you from listening to the stories that she brought home, she decided to major in nursing at UMass Amherst, and she’s a student there. But she went into that decision of picking her major eyes wide open.

Hmm. She [00:25:00] knew that that was something she wanted to do and saw a lot of things, the good, the bad, and the ugly in, in the hospital setting, which invariably, you know, any hospital experiences. So that work-related experience, working with doctors and nurses and aides and dealing with patients helped her mature, built her interpersonal skills, the rules of the workplace, expectations, et cetera.

My other daughter, she was in electrical. Now she can change out switches or receptacles, as they call. Hmm. She can do lights, you know, a bunch of stuff, and she worked for a local Seneca Electric during her school year and one summer, but ultimately decided a career in law enforcement and is graduating this year with a degree in criminal justice and hoping to become a police officer.

And somebody might say, “Well, we wasted an electrical spot,” and I hear that. Well, she always has that as a skill set- Hmm … that she can pursue on the side. But that work experience, getting in a van at 5:00 in the morning, going to a workplace, working with [00:26:00] all-male crews, just becoming, you know, more, more worldly, being the only female in the workplace, I mean, those are things that are gonna benefit her and make her a better employee no matter where she goes and what she does, and she’s always got an industry-recognized credential to fall back on.

So if she retires, God willing, what, 57, 58, 60 years old, when oftentimes people in law enforcement do, she could do a little side work as an electrician. I mean, so I just think it’s just so valuable in that sense of how they learn. There’s academics with related theory, then they’re out practicing the particular trade or vocation.

And at the very least, whether they pursue it or not, they recognize different career options. They learn the rules of the workplace. And polling in employers here in Massachusetts say they love vocational technical school graduates ’cause they can more often than not hit the ground running when they’re hired

Albert Cheng: Well, thanks so, so much for sharing those stories about your kids, and I’m with you.

I think there’s something about some kind of learning [00:27:00] and formation that happens when you get your hands dirty and you’re wrestling with the real stuff of the world, right? So thanks for that. Well, I wanna ask two closing questions to give you a chance to maybe reflect on any advice or wisdom you’d share.

So first of all, as a former mayor, lieutenant governor, now president of the Chamber of Commerce, what lessons would you share, let’s just start with other Massachusetts leaders, about how to do voc-tech reform? And what are maybe some of the policy issues that we ought to be paying attention to for voc-tech in Massachusetts?

Tim Murray: Well, unfortunately, you know, a decision was made last year to implement the lottery system to access our voc-tech schools, which, you know, I think is gonna result in students leaving after their freshman, sophomore, and junior years, and then you can’t fill those slots. Yeah. So I think part of the success has been students get exposed in seventh and eighth grade.

They realize there’s an expectation and a standard of them expected when they go to school and at a [00:28:00] voc-tech school, and there’s a seriousness to it because of the equipment that they’re dealing with. The cost of an education is higher because you’re dealing with equipment and materials and things like that.

I do think we will see what the results of that are, but I don’t think they’re gonna be positive. And unfortunately, we also saw Massachusetts retreat from the MCAS as a condition or a graduation requirement of having to pass proficiency in English and math. So I’m concerned about, you know, what those two trends mean in terms of results and having kids prepared both in our comprehensive high schools in the academic and in the voc-tech schools.

So I guess what I would say is, you know, when you get something that’s successful and working, don’t mess around with it- Yes … unnecessarily. And I think in terms of voc-tech, like even though we made progress in adding new seats, we’re still not going fast enough and adding as quickly as we should for a proven, successful form of education that we need more [00:29:00] of.

And don’t take my advice. Listen to the employer community, and knowing how rapidly the economy changes, having kids who are resilient, who have industry-recognized credentials just makes us, overall as an economy, more resilient and adaptive.

Albert Cheng: Let me ask a slightly different version of the question. So let’s suppose you were the state education commissioner or the secretary of education or some, you had some other leadership position in another state and were asked to enact, let’s say, three policies to strengthen voc-tech in that state.

What might those three policies be?

Tim Murray: Well, I think in seventh and eighth grade, trying to do as much as you can to have a robust exploratory or career exploration curriculum or exposure so kids can start thinking about it at that level. And I think that also then results in kids who hopefully, I would say, that then leads to those students wanting to pursue career technical education.

[00:30:00] So making sure at the high school level, those commissioners of education, superintendents have, you know, those meaningful pathways for career and technical education that allow them to learn a building trade, learn biotech or coding, learn health sciences or allied health, and then have those programs in place because I– they’re successful, kids want them, and make sure you get the funding.

And then the other element to this is on the instructional side of the vocational technical piece. You need people in the private sector to come into public education or some cases, charter schools that, you know, may have some Chapter seventy-four programs who have experience in an industry recognized credential in that particular trade they’re gonna be instructor in.

And that’s, that, that is a challenge to find people who actually know the trade, you know, to use that in a broad sense. And so you better get whatever waivers sometimes that are needed to allow them to be in the classroom. So that I would say to any superintendent, commissioner, don’t underestimate the work [00:31:00] that needs to be done in that side.

Albert Cheng: Mm. Well, thanks for sharing your experience, your advice, Tim, and thanks so much for your time to join us on The Learning Curve.

Alisha Searcy: Keep up the great work.

Tim Murray: Thanks for the opportunity.

Alisha Searcy: Wow, Albert, that was really good. First of all, it’s always cool to talk to former elected officials and see- Mm-hmm … how they’ve turned their work into something new, and in this case, he’s done some incredible work around vocational and technical education.

Albert Cheng: Yeah, yeah. You know, Alisha, we’ve been having a string of school leaders in the past few episodes, and we’ve marked each time that there’s plenty to learn, and I’m glad we get an opportunity to do that on the show.

And, you know, I was actually even just reflecting that we mix it up on this show with folks from Ed Policy and other former leaders, but also with experts to talk about the lives of those who came before us. And, you know, I th- if I might say, the common thread [00:32:00] is to be able to kind of gain wisdom and learn from other people’s experiences.

So yeah, this one didn’t disappoint.

Alisha Searcy: Absolutely. Well, before we go, we’ve gotta make sure we cover our tweet of the week. This week it comes from NPR. “The Education Department hasn’t been dismantled. It’s become more inefficient, staff say.” So a very interesting article and interview where the reporter is talking to staffers who’ve come from the US Department of Education, still doing the work but in different departments, and frankly, it’s short-staffed, they are overworked, and they find it difficult to work within these systems.

So anyway, make sure you check out that interview and article, and we’ve gotta continue to follow this story about what’s happening with the Department of Education. Albert, I’m looking forward to hanging out with you again, and we’ll have on Dr. Jocelyn Chadwick, who is a Harvard professor and renowned Mark Twain scholar, and author of The Jim Dilemma: Reading Race in Huckleberry Finn.

So make sure [00:33:00] y’all join us next week for that. Albert, always great to hang out with you.

Albert Cheng: Yeah, pleasure is mine.

Alisha Searcy: Everybody take care.