Dr. Gil Troy on Theodor Herzl - Father of Zionism & Combating Antisemitism

The Learning Curve Dr. Gil Troy [00:00:00] Albert Cheng: Well, hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Learning Curve podcast. I'm one of your co-hosts this week, Albert Cheng, and co-hosting. With me this week is Andrea Silbert. Andrea, it's been a bit, hi. Welcome back to the show. [00:00:35] Andrea Silbert: How It Has, it Has. I'm so excited, Albert, about today's guest. Thank you for having me. [00:00:39] Yeah. [00:00:40] Albert Cheng: Oh no, it's a pleasure. Yeah, we're gonna have a conversation on Theodore Herzl with Dr. Gil Troy, and so that should be a lot of fun. You know, I've really enjoyed getting to know about his life over the years, so hope our listeners will feel the same. [00:00:54] Andrea Silbert: Yeah, I think they will. When a lot of people don't know about Herzl and he was one of the great visionaries, you know, in the last. [00:01:03] Several hundred years. So it's an exciting story. I mean, just his vision and then the founding of the state of Israel is something that if you take it out of its current context, you know, and look back 150 years, you would think this was a fairytale. Right? This is miraculous. So it's an exciting story. [00:01:20] It's meant for Hollywood. I believe that these stories need to be made into Steven Spielberg movies, so if anybody knows anything, great. [00:01:29] Albert Cheng: Yeah, well, that's right, that's right. And you're gonna get the credit. Let it be recorded on this show. [00:01:34] Andrea Silbert: Okay, we got it. [00:01:35] Albert Cheng: Well, before we get to that though, as we usually do on this show, we'd like to talk a little bit of education news. What caught your eye recently, Andrea? [00:01:43] Andrea Silbert: Well on this topic around Israel and antisemitism and racism, I saw an article and and was aware that the foundation to Combat Antisemitism, which is Robert Kraft's Foundation, has an initiative to bring together students from historically black colleges and universities, HBCUs with Judas students working with Hillel. [00:02:08] And I'm so happy in these unity dinners to really bring our communities together. Our communities worked very hard together on civil rights back in the sixties, and then had parted ways for a number of reasons, or not quite parted ways, but are not as close. And there's a lot of misunderstanding right now, particularly I think in progressive communities around Jews and antisemitism. [00:02:31] So I thought that was great, and it reminded me of a PBS documentary that I had seen a few years ago, which I highly recommend called From Swastika to Jim Crow. It documented the Jewish professors in Germany who were expelled from Germany, late twenties, early thirties, and they came to the US and the only schools that would hire them to teach were the HBCUs, and it is just a moving, inspirational film. [00:02:59] So that really caught my attention. [00:03:01] Albert Cheng: So that's fascinating at these, I guess dinners and gatherings you're talking about, there's a little nod to, I have no idea about that history you just shared there. So yeah, thanks for sharing that. And these are always hard conversations, but hard conversations that we need to have. [00:03:16] Absolutely. My news story isn't on Israel or race relations or anything of that nature, per se. I mean, I guess it's, it's really everything's related, I guess. But for the listeners out there who are steeped in the the education policy space, this probably will not be news to you, but. We just had recently the drop of new 12th grade NAEP scores and the results aren't great. [00:03:38] We've seen recently drops in fourth grade test scores and eighth grade test scores in math and reading on the nape. Now we have the 12th graders and so, and I think this is an important. Look at how we're doing. 'cause you know, 12th grade is, is the end of our primary secondary education. And so how are our graduates or high school students finishing up? [00:03:59] It doesn't look great. The scores are lower than 20 years ago. Another percent of, you know, high school seniors scoring basic in math and reading. At least in reading, it was almost three quarters back in 2005 and above 60% in math in 2005. We're dropping below 70% in reading now and dropping about 55% scoring basic in math according to the latest score. [00:04:22] So yeah, kind of concerning. And you know, I thought in the article that we're gonna link to for the show from the ap, the closing point I think is worth thinking about and the closing points. Cited some experts. You know, some folks are saying that, Hey, look, it's easy to blame the pandemic and all the school closures. [00:04:42] And then certainly that had some effect, but it's also easy to forget that this downward trend was happening well before the pandemic. And so it's not just learning loss due to school closure. So anyway, you know, I think folks might be already be familiar with some of these scores, but I want to link to that article and offer it for some further consideration for what we might do next. [00:05:02] So Andrew, I don't know if you pay attention to this much. I do. Or have any reaction? Yeah. [00:05:07] Andrea Silbert: I do, because I know Massachusetts has the highest NAEP scores. Mm-hmm. And frankly, I, I think it's a pretty low bar, so it worries me tremendously. It's really important. And the trends seem to be in states to do away with standardized testing. [00:05:22] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Look, we've gotta know, I always told my kids that when they were taking these tests, this is the report card on teachers. It's not a report card on the kids. And it's the only way we know if our kids are learning. I had a daughter who was getting a straight A in English, and she was barely passing the English MCAS, and she said, and I said, well, that's not about you. [00:05:42] If your teacher's telling me you have an A and you don't know how to write, so these are essential skills. Yeah, I do follow it and it's very worrisome. [00:05:51] Albert Cheng: Yep. Well, there's plenty more to say about that, but we're gonna, I guess, bookmark that for a, a future conversation. We want to turn our conversation right now to Theodore Herzl. [00:06:02] So Dr. Gil Troy is gonna join us in a little bit here, so stick around. [00:06:17] Dr. Gil Troy is a senior fellow at the Jewish People Policy Institute and a distinguished scholar in North American history at McGill University. His books, unedited volumes include to resist the Academic Intifada letters to my students on defending the Zionist Dream, the Essential Guide to October 7th and its aftermath. [00:06:34] Facts, figures, history. The three volume set, Theodore Herzl, the collected and Zionist writings and addresses of Israel's founder, which was co-authored with Natan Shaky Never Alone Prison Politics and My People and Moynihan's Moment. America's fight against Zionism as racism. He appeared as a featured commentator on CNN documentaries and has been interviewed on most major North American TV and radio networks. [00:07:00] Dr. Troy's essays have also appeared in the American, Canadian, and Israeli media, including the New York Times, Jerusalem Post Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, and The Hill, among others, his bachelor's degree, master's degree, and doctorate are from Harvard University. He lives in Jerusalem. Dr. Troy, thanks for joining us on the show. [00:07:19] It's a pleasure to have you here. Great to be with you. You're a celebrated American Israeli author and expert on Israel Zionism, and the editor of the Writings of the 19th Century Austro-Hungarian Jewish Journalist and Lawyer Theater, or Herzl, who you know is known as the father of modern political Zionism. [00:07:37] So just in Caser, there's probably some folks listening who know very little about Herzl. So could you start with a brief overview of who Herzl was and his vision for the state of Israel as the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people? [00:07:51] Dr. Gil Troy: Theore Herzl was born in 1860 and he was part of this remarkable transformation in the western world and in the Jewish world called the Enlightenment, called the emancipation and his vision and his parents' vision, and his ideal was to simply be accepted to be a man of his very sexist times. In those times, it his very masculine identity. And if you've seen pictures of him, you see he had these, you know, piercing black eyes and this beautiful black beard and he liked making an impression when he walked into the room. [00:08:19] But over the course of his lifetime, and people liked to oversimplify and we'll get into it as he had like one critical moment, but it was building up. He kept on noticing. That living in the altro of Hungarian Empire, first living in Hungary, then moving to Vienna, then eventually becoming a reporter in Paris that wherever he went, if people thought he was a Jew, saw that he was a Jew, or found out that he was a Jew. [00:08:43] It changed things and so it radicalized him and it in many ways disappointed him. But one of the fascinating things about Herzl. And I call this the Juujitsu, JEW, that he wouldn't take the negativity and stay in the negativity rather than being somebody stuck in despair. He said, well, how am I gonna find hope? [00:09:02] And he found hope, as you said, by saying, okay, if they don't want us the way to be normal. Is if the Italians are forming Italy and the Americans over there in that amazing experiment have formed the United States of America and the Brits becoming Brits lets the Jews who are people as well as a religion, go back to our indigenous homeland. [00:09:21] Let us also, he said, return to Jewishness. He said, Zionism is a much return to Jewishness as a return to Jewish state and let us establish a Jewish state on the Jewish homeland. Now I'm oversimplifying the journey 'cause it was a complicated journey. But one of the remarkable things about Theore Herzl. [00:09:35] Is that this realization comes to him when he's all of 35 in 1895, and he is only really active for another nine, 10 years. He dies at the age of 44 in 1904. So here, this person who in many ways is the kind of founding icon of the state of Israel died when he was 44 and in his very short. Life in his even shorter Zionist career had a remarkable impact. [00:10:01] So, uh, wherever you stand politically, I like to use his story to say that in this age of despair, when we feel like we can't make an impact. I think when Theodore Herzl was a kind of frustrated lawyer and a frustrated playwright, he didn't think he was making it much of an impact too. And lo lo and behold, he found his passion. [00:10:18] He helped the Jewish people, and of course Zionism has roots going back to Abraham and Sarah and the Bible. But he kind of pulled together. A Zionist movement, the movement to establish a Jewish state in the Jewish homeland, which was then called Palestine. Then today is the land of Israel. [00:10:33] Andrea Silbert: I'll jump in here. Well, thanks for that background. It's really, really helpful and, and I'm gonna pick up on what you talked about, the Jewish people and our history going back for 4,000 years. There's so much misunderstanding right now about who's indigenous to Israel, but Jews have lived in Israel for nearly 4,000 years, beginning with the biblical patriarchs and with a continuous presence in Jerusalem for 3000 years. [00:11:00] So can you give us some context for those who might be unfamiliar with this topic and some key touch stems to better understand the historical roots of Zionism. [00:11:10] Dr. Gil Troy: I call this historic suicide. If homicide is killing a human being and suicide is killing yourself, historic side is trying to kill another people's history. [00:11:19] In this case, the Jewish history. You wanna disagree with Israel, fine. You don't even wanna like Israel as a state, fine. But why try to rob us of our history? And let's get into your question by looking at the three pillars of Zionism. Zionism has three fundamental assumptions. Number one, as I suggested that Jews are a people. [00:11:36] As well as followers of the faith that there's the faith called Judaism, and it's confusing. Jews don't fit in the box, and it's because it's not a Western religion, so it doesn't fit in the Western box. But if you go back to Genesis 12, leave your house, your father's house, and I'll make a view. God says to Abraham. [00:11:54] A great, not religion, but a great people. Is that a moment of religious revelation or a moment of peoplehood? The answer is yes. Both. Is Passover a moment of national liberation where the Jews are free and become a people or a moment of religious redemption? The answer is yes. Both. I call this the Oreo cookie. [00:12:10] We have the cookie part, the cream part. We have the nation part or peoplehood part and the religion part. So a, that the Jews are a people. B, that Jews have ties to a particular homeland, the land of Israel, and that doesn't preclude others from having ties to that homeland. And I'm speaking to you now from Australia where there are questions about the Australians and the aboriginals. [00:12:29] I grew up in New York where Manhattan was purchased for $24 from the Indians, but nobody delegitimizes the United States of America. And so A, we are A people, B, Jews to have a homeland. And C, Jews have a right to establish a state on that homeland. So the people of Israel on the land of Israel. Establish the state of Israel in 1948, but the story goes back, as you mentioned, 4,000 years, and let's put the Bible aside. [00:12:53] She said, what? The Bible? I don't believe in the Bible. Okay. How about archeological evidence? How about archeological evidence that shows that, first of all, there are some Israelite villages where there are piles of all kinds of bones that were eaten except for pig. And there are villages next door, which were not Israelite villages, which have pig bones as well chewed upon that shows that the laws of Kashrut, the dietary laws were being followed thousands of years ago. [00:13:19] We've found in Israel, 2000 year old menorahs candelabras, we've found 2000 year old. Holy books. So again, you wanna criticize as you'll find, but why deny this story? And by the way, if you read the New Testament, you read about Jesus walking the land, but the land is the land of Israel. And so the negation is actually much more toxic than you would think because it's kind of trying to negate a much broader story. [00:13:46] Albert Cheng: Thanks for that background as well, and that certainly informed a lot of herzl's thinking, but could you unpack a little bit more about Herzl's, you know, formative, I guess his, his childhood, his, his religious and educational and political experiences. I mean, you alluded to this earlier, just some of the anti-Semitic events that he confronted in Vienna. I mean, how did all this come to a, i, I guess a, a boiling point really to cause him to do what he did? [00:14:11] Dr. Gil Troy: He grows up in Hungary, in Budapest, and when he's 18 he moves to Vienna. Now BOLO is part of the Austrian Hungarian empire. It's a multi-dimensional empire, and again, he has this great hope and his parents have this great hope that he will assimilate. [00:14:26] But even when he's in college and he's accepted to a fraternity of sorts, he discovers when the well-known German composer Richard Wagner dies, that despite the fact that Wagner is a well-known antisemite, everyone in his fraternity, including the Jews, attends his funeral, attends a funeral circus, and when he stands up. [00:14:48] He stands alone and that's a story that is often underappreciated. But to me it's very important because it shows that even then in his early twenties he's understanding that this dream, this hope of assimilating, of escaping Judaism will never work. And we jump ahead 'cause we don't have a lot of time to Paris where he's now, as I said, a, a top correspondent for, uh, ESE newspaper NOI press, and. [00:15:15] Everybody likes to tell the story of how he covers the trial of Dreyfus. We'll get to that in a second, but more important, he's so frustrated by the Jewish condition that he spends three weeks. Kind of trying to exercise all his worries about antisemitism, exercise, all his feelings of inadequacy and humiliation as a Jew. [00:15:35] And he writes this play called The New Jew. And it's actually a play of despair. There's not one positive character in the entire play, and that's where he's really stuck. And then, and this is where the sequence is so important, and then in the last few days of this burst of writing. That's when he starts covering as a correspondent, this awful story of a French Army captain Alfred Dreyfus, who has been framed. [00:16:02] And while it wasn't totally clear that he was framed it, there were lots of questions about it, but worse was that when Alfred Dreyfus was convicted, people, and of course, this is a time of great patriotism. This is the emergence of French nationalism, and how could you, how dare you be a traitor. And the crowds in Paris denounce him. [00:16:19] But they don't denounce him as the traitor. They don't denounce him as the individual alpha drivers. They say that's to the Jews. And that's when Herzl says, okay, I'm gonna pull this together. And so he tells, as a playwright, a kind of simplistic story, thesis, antithesis, synthesis. I was assimilated. All of a sudden I saw the Dreyfus affair. [00:16:40] Boom. We're hated. Assimilation hasn't worked. There is antisemitism, assimilation plus antisemitism. I can go to despair, but no, I wanna go to hope. And that hope is Zionism. That hope is normalcy, that hope is returning to the homeland, that hope is not being paralyzed. And I think that's such an important lesson today was so much hatred and not being paralyzed, but finding a dream. [00:17:01] And one of his favorite sayings is, if you will, it it is no dream. If you really kind of think about what you want, it's not simply a pipe dream, but you can make it happen. And indeed, he helped make it happen. [00:17:14] Andrea Silbert: That is just such a a, an important background for us to have about Dreyfus and Herzl, and I love that bit at the end about thinking outside of the box, which is, this is beyond it, and we're gonna come back to that at the end. [00:17:29] I really wanna think about what would Herzl have to say about the antisemitism? I would just say that we face today and what Jewish students and others can do, but let's come back to that one. So. Herzl's most famous and foundational book is the Jewish State. It advocated for the establishment of an independent Jewish homeland as the solution to antisemitism, as well as provide the Jewish people with the nation for religious liberty and cultural expression. Would you talk about his book? Its Reception among Jews and non-Jews, as well as how it became the catalyst for the modern Zionist movement. [00:18:06] Dr. Gil Troy: With the Dryfuss affair. Herzl has his aha moment. And again, it's been building for many, many years. It's, but he, in some ways, as I said, likes to oversimplify it 'cause it's just easier. [00:18:15] It's an easier story to tell. And he starts turning to wealthy Jewish philanthropists say, can you help me? And the origins of Dear Denad, the Jewish State is a memo to a leading Jewish philanthropist, baroner Hirsch, trying to explain what this crazy idea is that the Jews, despite being wanders for so many years, despite being exiled from their homelands 2000 years earlier when the Romans threw them out. [00:18:41] But of course, we should emphasize there always was a Jewish presence in cities like Jerusalem and Hebron and SWAT and Tiberius, the four holy cities. And what's remarkable is even this people. Spread out all over wherever they prayed. Whenever they prayed, they always turned to Jerusalem. So Zion, the Central Mountain in Jerusalem was always so central to them. [00:19:01] And he writes this book, but as you suggested, it's not just about Judaism. He has a vision. Of liberal democratic nationalism. You know, these days nationalism is a term that's popular with one Sydor, the spectrum, and not popular with the other Sydor. The spectrum I won't allow one Sydor the spectrum, the other Sydor the spectrum to own nationalism. [00:19:21] My nationalism and herzl's nationalism and Zionism has a first name and a middle name. Liberal democratic nationalism. Nationalism is a neutral tool. In the 1940s, Jews experienced nationalism at its absolute worst, its most murderous, IE Nazism, nationalism with no soul, with no morality, with no heart. But in 1948, Jews experienced nationalism, IE liberal democratic nationalism, IE Zionism, and, and in a way that's that, that lifted them up and inspired them. [00:19:49] So nationalism is a neutral tool. Herzl's nationalism, herzl's, Jewish nationalism, IE he Zionism. Is a Zionism that first starts with self defense and dignity and creating a special Jewish place. But if you read to the end of the book, he says, yes, the vision is that Jews will ultimately be able to live and die in their own homes, in their own homelands free freedom. [00:20:15] What a powerful idea. And he loves the American ideal, by the way. He also says, and this is the powerful thing about the United States of America, this is the powerful thing about Israel. Israel and the United States of America are part of that very small club of countries that are democratic, but they're also part of an even smaller club of countries that are democracies that are catalytic. [00:20:34] I call them over the rainbow democracies. They're always singing somewhere over the rainbow. They're always dreaming. And his dream is that as we are able to live and die in our own homes, we also will create a country that is a model to all of humanity. That'll inspiration to all of humanity because these liberal ideas, these democratic ideals, will be integrated with the Jewish ideals and we will able to be proud, strong, free, and constructive for the whole world. [00:21:03] Albert Cheng: Well, Dr. Troy, thanks so much for that summary of that book, the Jewish States. You know, I, I, I guess I wanna ask a broader question. You're the editor of Theodore Herzl, the collected Zionist writings and addresses of Israel's founder. Could you tell us more about the other writings and other key speeches or addresses that we should all be more familiar with to understand Herzl's thinking and, and ideas and arguments on behalf of Zionism? [00:21:28] Dr. Gil Troy: So he writes jewish state in another frenzy, and he finishes in 8 95. It comes out in 1896. And one of the exciting things about this project, it's three volumes and it's, it's three very hefty volumes, but I literally know people who have read it cover to cover is that. Because he has this sense of history. [00:21:47] He has to a certain extent, a sense of grandeur 'cause you don't change history unless you have a certain sense of grandeur. He's constantly writing letters to other people, but he also has diaries. And so the Zionist writings is a collection of his diaries as a Zionist of letters that he, he goes, you can sort of watch. [00:22:03] The play by play of his formal speeches, his formal articles, the book, the Jewish State, the book, um, alt Newland, old Newland, which we'll get to. And so the fun thing about the diaries is that you're able to kind of really be there and watch how he develops. And one of the ways I, I think about it is it's kind of like the political version, the political science version of an artist's sketchbook. [00:22:27] And our enemies have gone through the book and sometimes taken lines outta context and say, you see, he thought this, he thought that you have to understand that Herzl is in process. Herzl is, is growing. Herzl is, is also having his own Jewish awakening. One of my favorite stories from the Zionist writings, and I should emphasize that in, so in this three volume work, I wrote an introduction and I also, in order to give younger readers a sense of what's going on. [00:22:52] I wrote an introduction, whole piece of the, each of the 10 years where he was activist, a Zionist. And so it's organized chronologically and every time you shift a year, you get a little introduction, which is a good way of sort of a guide through these amazingly rich thoughts of his and amazingly eloquent expressions of his. [00:23:09] He writes this short story called the Menorah. The Menorah is a seven part candelabra, but also in on Hanukkah is the nine part. Candelabra that's used to light a a Hanukkah candle, one for each night. But you also have the Shamash, the main light. And he tells the story of someone who was cut off from his Jewish roots, who had forgotten who he was, and looks at this candelabra and decides to buy one and bring it home the year before. [00:23:35] He'd celebrated Christmas and her hadn't indeed celebrated Christmas. And he says it reminds him of a tree with the roots and sort of gnarled, but also branching out. And he says, every night. What happens? They light the candles. So first they light two candles. The the shamash, the main one and the, and then number one, and then two. [00:23:52] He says, every night we bring in more light into our home. And he says, every night. I'm getting more light, and that is my process. That is my sense of discovery. That is the journey that I'm on. And so the manure is just one short story in a vast volume of writings, but it gives a sense of a, the fact, as I said, he was on his own journey, and B, that he's excited not just about Zionism, not just about return to the land, not just about this political movement. [00:24:19] But understands that deep in Zionism is also a spiritual return, a spiritual Zionism. I call this identity Zionism, that there's political Zionism and identity. Zionism and Herzl's often only understood as not just a political Zionist, but as a Garrison Zionist, just trying to build a fortress, but inherent. [00:24:38] In Jewish state, in the Menorah, in so many of his writings is this kind of wonderful catalytic energy. This volatility like we see in many of the American founders, which is always about dreaming how to make the world a better place, how to make the state a better place, and how to find more fulfillment and a greater spiritual, ideological and political journey. [00:24:59] Andrea Silbert: Thank you for that. In 1897, Herzl convened the first Zionist Congress in Switzerland. While being elected president of the Zionist organization, he then began a series of diplomatic initiatives to build support among European leaders for a Jewish state. Could you talk about the stage of his life and work and how it sparked greater political support for Zionism? [00:25:22] Dr. Gil Troy: Herzl has a background as I've suggested, as both a playwright and a lawyer. And you have to see those two sides. 'cause the playwright has a sense of drama. So that's why I said he reduces his whole story to a a three part play. But also as a lawyer, he's very much a statesman and he's very much thinking about how do I make this thing happen? [00:25:40] And so the process is the revelation around Dreyfus again, which has been building for decades. Then writing out your vision. It becomes this huge thing in the Jewish world. Some people are thrilled with it. What's interesting is that he figures out a way to unite the far right and the far left, if you will. [00:26:00] The most ultraorthodox forces in the Jewish world are upset because you have to wait for God, and human beings can't bring the Messiah, and human beings can't return to the land. You just have to sit in misery until God saves us and the most. Being gross left wing. The reformers who were trying to only make Judaism religion and don't want peoplehood 'cause they wanna be Jews of the Mosaic persuasion because they wanna be Italians of the mosaic persuasion and French people of the mosaic persuasion. [00:26:26] And so both of them are hostile to, to Herzl, so much so that he makes this Zionist Congress. He originally wanted to have it in Munich. And the rabbis, the reform rabbis and the Ultra-Orthodox rabbis said, no way. And that's how he ends up in Basel. So part two of his journey, if part one is thinking and conceptualizing and creating the vision, now it's how do I make it happen? [00:26:48] And there, you know, Zionism, as I said, goes back to Abraham and Sarah goes back to the Bible Zionism. There were people who are already, especially after the 1880 pogroms in Russia making their way as pioneers as what we call halim to the land. But what it herz will do. Herzl pulls together the movement and focuses on its building political legitimacy in the outside world to create a state, so he's not just about building a settlement here at building the settlement there back when settlement was a neutral term. [00:27:18] He's about creating a movement to create a Jewish state, and that's why he invites 205 delegates to Basel. Again, can't make it to Munich. And think about it, it's a bit of a con, right? Because who's he and why are they listening? And then why are world leaders taking meetings with him? But it works. And at that amazing meeting in Basel. [00:27:41] In 1897. And so again, look at the timeline. 18 95, 18 90, he writes 1896. The Jewish State comes after Eut, comes out 1897. He's already launching this movement, and there he kind of launches the formal Zionist movement Again, the Zionist idea has many, many earlier roots, and the next day he writes, nobody's gonna believe this, but he writes this in his diary, right? [00:28:01] It's one of the fun things about the diary. He is just sort of like getting an inside peek. He says, I'll never publish this, but he said, 50 years from now. I know we're gonna have a Jewish state, and I love the fact that he was off by one year. He writes in 1897 and 1947, indeed the United Nations recognized the right of the Jewish people to have a state, but it's May, 1948 that it's fulfilled and that shows that we're not really in the realm of prophecy, but we're in the el, the realm of history. [00:28:25] And he knew in his bones. At that moment, pulling these Jews from all over the world together, and again, starting to get international legitimacy and starting to create some kind of infrastructure, a Jewish national fund for fundraising, a bank to buy land in Palestine. 'cause they didn't wanna steal land from the landowners. [00:28:45] They wanted to buy land. He's creating the infrastructure that ultimately becomes the state of Israel. And that's why if you travel around the state of Israel today, you'll see images of Herzl. You can visit Herz right outside Tel Aviv. His impact and his image. Is still resonating. [00:28:59] Albert Cheng: Dr. Troy, I want to get to another novel you published a utopian novel, the Old New Land published in 1902. I appreciate you underscoring the point about the evolution of, of his thinking and, and in some sense, this book expanded on his vision for Jewish return to Israel. So could you talk about this book and what impact did it have on herzl's thinking and reputation, and where does it stand today generally in the canon of Zionist literature? [00:29:28] Dr. Gil Troy: So as an American historian, I loved teaching about the utopian novels of the 1880s. 1880s. Edward Bellamy was the most popular and herzl's part of that school of thought saying, okay, let's, I, I've, now I have my political manifesto, the Jewish State. I'm writing all these articles, I'm giving all these speeches, I'm writing all these letters. [00:29:46] I'm writing, I'm, I'm constantly writing the diary. Let's see if I can kind of envision this Jewish state. Through this utopian novel, and it's called Tno Land, which is German for old new land, although the Hebrew translator translated into Tel Aviv. Why? Because a tell. A tell is a mountain, a little mountain, which is an archeological hill, and there is a mountain that's created by the layers of layers of archeological artifacts, and Aviv means spring with renewals. [00:30:15] So old the archeological evidence, which shows how rooted we are in our land and Aviv Spring. So Old Newland or Archeological Mountain Spring Land, you can think of it in I I Are The Ways, and indeed he writes this in 1902, and it's such a powerful novel that seven years later when they create what's supposed to be the first Hebrew city, which is now the Megalopolis of Tel Aviv, they use that name. [00:30:39] And what's delightful about the novel? And, and the, the is that he is, try again. It's part of this brainstorming, so you're trying to work out all these ideas. He carves out a place for Arab citizens in his Jewish state because it's gonna be a Democratic Jewish state. He imagines Israel the small little country as being an engine of prosperity. [00:31:00] He doesn't use the phrase startup nation, but he's anticipating startup nation. He has some Looney tune ideas too, because. He's, you know, just brainstorming, but there's a lot of excitement and kind of takes this Zionist energy and broadcasts it worldwide, and it shows the two modes of Herzl. Post 1897 post Basel, he continues to dream. [00:31:22] He continues to brainstorm. He continues to write the playwright in him. The artist in him is still making art, if you will. Through words. But during that time, he's also meeting with all kinds of people. By 1904, he'll have met with the Pope and the Italian King and the German Kaiser during his one trip to Israel. [00:31:42] In a very brief meeting. That's just sort of iconic meeting 'cause the German Kaiser had a lot of power at the time trying to speak to Turkish officials. 'cause of course they ran the Ottoman Empire, which controlled Israel as an imperialist empire we should point out at the time. And so. There are two modes here, the politician, the statesman, and also the dreamer, the poet, and in this case the novelist. [00:32:03] Andrea Silbert: Following up on that, you talked a lot about the timeframe and the establishment of the state of Israel and how amazingly his prophetic, uh, Herzl was. But sadly, he, he died of heart issues in 1904, at the age of 44, and was buried in Vienna. The Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948 officially referred to him as the spiritual father of the Jewish state. [00:32:26] And in 49, his remains were taken to Israel and Reinter on Mount Herzl. Could you talk about his towering prophetic life and legacy, and most importantly, what we should remember most about him today, particularly in this moment where many Jews are despairing and we're having this similar discussion around assimilation versus identity Zionism. [00:32:52] Dr. Gil Troy: One of the fascinating things when you read the diaries and you read his letters, is this guy in his late thirties, early forties. It feels pursued by death. It feels like he struggles with the angel of death every day. I grew up with a myth that Herzl died suddenly of a broken heart because his Zionist dream wasn't fulfilled, not true. [00:33:10] He, he knew there was something going on in it with the ticker, and it was misfiring. It. And ultimately did die of, of, of this heart condition. And that gives him a certain kind of desperation, but it also gives him that push to more immortality because you defeat death by having big ideas. You defeat death by finding meaning you defeat death by having an impact. [00:33:31] And boy did this guy have an impact. And so what does Hertz will teach us today? Hertz will teach us. Again, Jewish are not Jewish to dream. Herzl teaches us to find meaning. Herzl teaches us to find our passion and to zero in on, on this moment and, and this moment in, in the Jewish world. He teaches us, first of all, that things can get better and they do get better. [00:33:51] You know, I like to give students today a time machine and say, pick a time in Jewish history, which is better for all the challenges of today. We have a Jewish state. With a Jewish army, which can defend itself for all the challenges today, the overwhelming majority of Jews are living in free democracies, be it in the United States of America, or Australia or Israel. [00:34:15] You know, even just 30, 40 years ago, two and a half to 3 million Jews were in that vast prison camp called the Soviet Union. So Herzl helps us understand that there can be progress, there can be change, and Herzl helps us understand that. It's a kind of funny thing. You know, many Israelis say, oh, I'm not religious, and yet over 90% of Israelis celebrate Passover and Hanah the Jewish New Year. [00:34:42] And many American Jews say, oh, my religion is. Jewish, and yet they're highly assimilated and, and, and they may not show up in synagogue or even for dinner for Hashanah. So what's going on? Herzl teaches us about, again, what I was talking about, the Oreo cookie, the integrated nature of religion and peoplehood. [00:35:02] And it doesn't mean that we, therefore, that we judge one or the other, but that Judaism is this mini splendid thing and Zionism is a way in. For those people who aren't believers in God, but who understand that sense of people. And let's go to the worst day in recent Jewish history, October 7th, so many of us left, right? [00:35:21] Religious, non-religious. In Israel. Outside of Israel. That sick feeling we had in our stomach was a people feeling, was a feeling of, oh my goodness, we are interconnected and they are aiming at us and we do have enemies. Herzl helps us understand that we fight our enemies, not just by letting them define us, but by transcending it and dreaming and building the right answers and building a better life, a better world, a better Jewish life, a better Jewish world, and also a better world for all. [00:35:52] Albert Cheng: Troy, thanks for leaving us with those words and just showing us how important history is to us as a teacher and how we can learn from the lives of those who have come before us. I want to give you two opportunities here. First, you, you have a new book, or maybe it's a guide, you know what you wanna call it, the Essential Guide to Zionism, anti-Zionism, anti-Semitism, and Jew Hatred. [00:36:15] I do wanna give you an opportunity to say a bit about that if you, if you'd like. But more importantly, I'd like to give you the last word, and perhaps you would like to share a passage from your collective volume of Herzl's writings and addresses. [00:36:28] Dr. Gil Troy: So first I wanna thank you for an enlightening and invigorating conversation and for excellent questions and for all that you all are doing. [00:36:34] So I'll start with the essential guide and then I'll end with the passage. Since October 7th, I have, I live in Israel. I have kids in and outta the army every day. One of my sons has served over 420 days in reserves. So I wake up saying, how can I help? So I wrote a. A more ideological book called To Resist the Academic in ADA Letters to my students on Defending the Zionist Dream. [00:36:55] And that's a conventional book, but I've also written two guides. I call them the Essential Guide. It's like a series of essential guides. One is the Essential Guide to October 7th, and the new one is The Essential Guide to Zionism anti-Zionism. anti-Semitism, which is the theory of hating the Jew and Jew hatred, which is the action. [00:37:13] And both those essential guides are available for, they're eBooks. Basically, they're available for download Gilroy Essential Guide to Zionism to October 7th. And the idea is, I don't care where you stand left or right. I think we have to understand certain basics. We have to understand certain facts and then from there we can, we can debate and fight. [00:37:34] And that's very much Herzl's vision too. 'cause he was very much about the big Peoplehood platform. We also send out the PDF of the two essential guides and we as the, my think tank, the Jewish People's Policy Institute and encourage people to print them out because I'm a big believer in the power of the written word. [00:37:51] And I'm a big believer like Herchel was in, in, in the power of the printed word. Mm-hmm. And so. You know, you wanna read it on, on online, that's great. But I, I think there's something to be said in printing with, you know, nice paper and, and really having it in, in your home. And we kept it short. So one is 64 pages, one is 80 pages. [00:38:06] 'cause the ideas just sort of like, get to the basics and then let everyone build. That's the new essential guide. And this is the opening to my introduction to theater rehearsal, Zionist writings. And you'll hear a lot of the themes we've been talking about today. Theodore Herzl is best known for his beard, not his books. [00:38:25] For an aha moment, he didn't have the Dreyfus affair and for launching the Zionist movement In 1897 at Basel, 18 months after he released his history changing Zionist manifesto, which we spoke about. Dear Y, despite this confusion, he remains Israel's iconic founder. With George Washington's mythic status, Thomas Jefferson's ideological impact, and Ben Franklin's memorable bon malts 118 years after his tragic death at the age of 44, and were the 125 years after he convened the first Zionist Congress, theore Herzl's outsized shadow and the true, complicated, multidimensional person behind the myth are precisely why it is so important to read his Zionist writings in this new edition featuring some fresh translations. [00:39:10] It was a perfect match. The people, the book got themselves a bookish savior, but for all his writings that we see here during his 11 years as a Zionist leader, these pages demonstrate that Herzl wasn't just another bookish Jew. He was also a Maccabean, a proud Jew, a fighting Jew, a Jew with spine and spunk, not just a Jew with a mind and soul. [00:39:34] Albert Cheng: Thank you for sharing that, Dr. Troy, and thank you for sharing your time with us. Really enjoyed this conversation, so thank you very much. [00:39:40] Dr. Gil Troy: Thank you very much, and let's have a calmer and sane year. [00:39:44] Albert Cheng: Yes, let's yes. Here, here. Well, Andrea, that was a great conversation. I mean, to be a part of, you know, I always learn something new every time I listen to someone. Talk about Theodore Herzl's life. [00:40:07] Andrea Silbert: Absolutely. Yeah. There's so much to learn and so much and inspiration as well. [00:40:13] Albert Cheng: Alright folks, let me leave you with a tweet of the week before we sign off. [00:40:15] This one's from Andrew Rotherham. This via at Joel Klein in the Free Press is hidden in plain sight. Uh, solution to fights about selective high schools instead of the scarcity mindset that doesn't help underserved kids and undermines good options problem. It's politically hard, and I know this is a, a big topic of debate. [00:40:34] You know, how do we expand access to some of these selective public high schools? So I'll just refer you all to that tweet for some other additional food for thought on how to figure this out. And, uh, of course, before we bid you farewell, do you wanna plug next week's episode? We're gonna have Carrie McDonald's who, if you don't know, has a new book out, joyful Learning How to Find Freedom, happiness, and Success Beyond Conventional Schooling. [00:41:00] So we're excited to have her join us next week to talk about her new book. So I hope you join us then until another new episode of The Learning Curve comes out. Be well. Hey, it's Albert Cheng here and I just wanna thank you for listening to the Learning Curve podcast. If you'd like to support the podcast further, we'd invite you to donate to the Pioneer Institute at pioneergfa.wpenginepowered.com/donations.