Arne Duncan on Federal Education Tax Credit Program

The Learning Curve Arne Duncan

Albert Cheng: [00:00:00] Everybody, hope you’re doing well. I’m Albert Cheng, coming at you with a brand-new episode of the Learning Curve Podcast, and I’m joined this week by Katie Everett. Katie, good to have you on the show again.

Katie Everett: Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it.

Albert Cheng: Just in case our listeners missed the episode that you were on, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself briefly to them?

Katie Everett: Yes. I’m Katie Everett. I’m the executive director of the Lynch Foundation, which is a Boston-based foundation that’s invested over $180 million into a variety of nonprofit organizations that support kids and families in the greater Boston area.

Albert Cheng: Great. Well, thanks for co-hosting this episode with me, and we’ve got a great show [00:01:00] today.

We are gonna have the pleasure of welcoming former US Secretary of Education under Barack Obama, Arne Duncan. We have an exciting guest, and should be an exciting conversation. But before we do that, let’s talk about some education news. Katie, did anything catch your eye this week?

Katie Everett: Yes. Actually, I found a fascinating story in Time Magazine.

It was titled AI Won’t Fix American Education, which is a very hot topic these days. It was great. The author, Sonya Murray, is a professor of social studies education and education history at Brooklyn College. She had an awesome perspective and did some really interesting comparatives on previous ed reform efforts, emphasizing just the continued desire by Americans to ask schools to solve problems that really originate far beyond classrooms.

I found it to be really thoughtful, and it had me think about the issue really differently. She talked about how [00:02:00] charter schools, Teach for America, No Child Left Behind, how all these reforms were, and innovations were great and made some, frankly, incremental changes, but none of them were able to make the fundamental changes that we need to see in education.

‘Cause frankly, in order to do that, you know, we’ve gotta really solve the problems of inequities that kids show up with around housing and food and healthcare and internet, you know, experienced teachers, safe neighborhoods, and family resources. And until we solve those inequities, we’re never really gonna solve the education inequities, and it’s unfair to think that any new innovation or technology, even as exciting and interesting as AI could be, would actually create those kinds of changes.

And she just really wanted to emphasize that AI will likely transform how students learn, but to be mindful that it won’t take over, hopefully, how kids need to think critically, and that it’s a tool and not… doesn’t supplant learning and education. It was really great.

Albert Cheng: Yeah, thanks for sharing [00:03:00] that article.

I thought it was some valuable perspective to temper our expectations. I’m generally bearish on lots of new things, so maybe it didn’t temper mine too much. And in fact, I mean, I was a little underwhelmed. One, one of the critiques I have of the article is I was a bit underwhelmed. It sounded like she was making the kind of age-old excuse that schools are incapable of helping students until we figure out other things.

And as you say, look, all the reforms she cited, we’ve made incremental changes, and we’ve shown that actually with hard work and leadership we can do some good things. Anyway, it just sounded like ma- a little bit of excuse making, but maybe I’m being unfair to her. But I do appreciate her point that maybe some tempering, given the AI craze out there, is, is needed.

And I’m certainly, like you said, concerned about the way AI as a technology might fundamentally change how we think about ourselves as learners as well. So I think that’s an important topic, so thanks for bringing it up.

Katie Everett: Yes, great.

Albert Cheng: You know, [00:04:00] I have a news story here that caught my eye, and it caught my eye because it continues the saga of what’s been going on in Oklahoma for quite some time now.

I think our listeners might be familiar with the idea that the state entertained at one point charter schools that are run by religious organizations, religious charter schools, if you will. That made it all the way to the Supreme Court, and it was a 4-4 tie, so the prior decision was upheld, which essentially denied the potential to start a religious charter school.

Well, the Becket Fund, we’ve had those folks on the show as well, there’s a new case that they’re involved with to challenge the current decision, and it’s centered around a Jewish charter school that’s trying to get started in Oklahoma, and so that’s being taken to court. So I guess we will see how the next chapter in this whole saga unfolds, won’t we?

Katie Everett: Yes. Yes, we will.

Albert Cheng: So stay tuned. I’m sure there’ll be [00:05:00] much more to see as that unfolds. And speaking of staying tuned, on the flip side of this break, we’re gonna have the former US Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan, join us.

Arne Duncan served as US Secretary of Education from January 2009 through December 2015 as part of the Obama administration. Prior to joining the Obama administration, Duncan served as chief executive officer of Chicago Public Schools. From 2001 to 2008, Duncan won praise for uniting the city’s stakeholders behind an education agenda that included opening 100 new schools, expanding after school, summer learning, early childhood, and college access programs, dramatically boosting the caliber of teachers, and building public-private partnerships around a variety of education initiatives.

He currently leads Chicago CRED, a nonprofit trying to achieve a transformative reduction in gun violence in Chicago. Through partnerships with local business leaders, [00:06:00] community organizers, and nonprofit groups, Duncan aims to provide outreach, therapeutic, education, and employment opportunities for young men most likely to be engaged in gun violence.

He is also the managing partner at Emerson Collective, an organization dedicated to removing barriers so people can live to their full potential. Secretary Duncan graduated magna cum laude from Harvard University in 1987, majoring in sociology. At Harvard, he served as co-captain of the basketball team and was named a first team academic All-American.

Well, Secretary Duncan, thanks for being on the show with us.

Arne Duncan: Thanks for the opportunity.

Albert Cheng: So let’s sketch everything out here. I mean, we’ve got this Federal Education Tax program that’s new, and look, you’ve been around the scene to say the least, first in Chicago, and then certainly as US Secretary of Education under President Obama.

So could you just share with our listeners what’s your take on the current state of urban school district reform, and what does the Federal [00:07:00] Education Tax program mean for urban families?

Arne Duncan: I’ll even broaden it to not just urban, but across the country that I would try and be honest, if it are worse, that I’m really, really concerned about where we are as a country.

The vast majority of states, including Massachusetts, frankly, aren’t making progress. There’s a small handful of southern states that are making progress on the NAEP. People call it the southern surge, but it’s literally like three or four states. It’s, it’s less than a handful, less than ten percent of our states.

And so given the fact that the vast majority of our states aren’t moving forward, many states haven’t yet recovered from pre-COVID results. I’m desperately worried about what that means for our young people, what it means for attracting high wage and high-skilled jobs to our communities and to our states, and ultimately to our country.

I worry about the impact on our democracy. So I feel this tremendous sense of urgency that we have to accelerate the pace of change. We have to help kids catch up. We have to get better faster. And to [00:08:00] answer your question directly, I have very strong feelings on this. Where we have an opportunity to bring more resources and new resources to the education table to help accelerate student learning, to help kids who are the first behind catch up, I feel not just an educational, but a moral obligation to try and get those resources and those opportunities to kids everywhere, urban, rural, Native American reservations and across, you know, in Boston and across the state of Massachusetts

Albert Cheng: So, you know, last I checked, the count is 31 states.

I don’t know if that’s been updated or anything, but 31 states have either officially opted into or indicated their intention to participate in this federal education tax credit program. And meanwhile, you and, and Democrats for Educated Reform are leading an effort to blue states like Massachusetts opt in.

What’s your pitch to blue states?

Arne Duncan: I do wanna help vulnerable kids, kids who are very far behind, English language learners, [00:09:00] first-generation students, students who are reading below grade level. That is the simplest choice I could ever make. And for your listeners to understand, this is not pennies. This, for Massachusetts, potentially is as much as $2.2 billion annually that if people don’t take advantage, that money will leave your state.

And so the idea of using $2.2 billion to help deserving, hardworking students across Massachusetts, to give them the chance to catch up and accelerate their learning, I would do that every day, every chance I could.

Albert Cheng: So let’s talk about two governors. I wanna start with Colorado’s Governor, Jared Polis. So he was the first Democrat to officially opt into the federal education tax credit program.

What’s your take on his rationale for participating? Is, is there something we might learn from his leadership as other states think about this?

Arne Duncan: Yeah, I mean, I’ve talked to him some about it. I just think it’s for folks that, that where it’s not really, you know, [00:10:00] political, it’s just common sense. It’s just, can we help some kids in our state?

And again, the vast majority of states, including Massachusetts, are not making the kind of progress we need. You know, state is sort of knocking it out of the box, and maybe, maybe you can make a case that we don’t need the money, but that’s, you know, that’s obviously not reality. The other thing that’s really interesting about this is a tax credit for individuals of up to $1,700.

And so often, you know, philanthropy and giving is, like, only for the donor class. It’s only for the rich- Hmm … and it’s for, it’s only for the elite. But this is something every hardworking family in Massachusetts can participate in. It really, you know, democratizes philanthropy. It democratizes- Hmm … the time to make a difference, and it really empowers, you know, just hardworking citizens who are doing the right thing every day and supporting their families and, yes, paying their taxes obviously by definition.

It gives them a chance to be joining that, you know, that philanthropic table, and that so often is denied to just, you know, regular people who make our [00:11:00] country what it is. Hmm. And so the chance to do that, I’m not sure if that was Governor Polis’ rationale or not, but for me, the idea of empowering every hardworking families paying taxes to say, “You now have a chance, a chance you’ve never had before to help more kids, you know, in your state, in your district, catch up educationally,” that’s a great thing.

I love that wealthy people, you know, donate to a whole variety of causes. That’s fantastic. I appreciate the generosity, but I don’t want giving to be reserved only for the elite. There’s something that bothers me about that. Hmm. And this is a chance to empower and to put that power in the hands of everyone across the state.

I want people to utilize that power, to feel that power, and to feel how good would you feel if you know your hardworking dollars are helping a child who is, you know, a grade or two levels behind i- you know, in reading and math, giving them a chance to catch up. That’s like an extraordinary use of, of your hard-earned tax dollars, your hard-earned dollars.

Yeah. And so I really want families to feel that and participate that and build a sense of community and build a sha- a sense of, you know, shared ownership and [00:12:00] shared responsibility that we’re gonna help our state, you know, do fantastic. Massachusetts has historically, you know, so often led the way in education.

I’ve learned so much from what Massachusetts has done over time. But honestly, Massachusetts has, has been struggling of late. It’s not where it could be or should be, and I wanna see Massachusetts lead the country in education. This is an opportunity to sort of regain that status and help to steer the rest of the country to where we need to go.

Albert Cheng: Let me stoke some rivalries here and talk about New York. I mean, I know, you know, Massachusetts and, and New York when it comes to sports, uh, don’t always see eye to eye. So let’s turn to New York, and I want to bring up Governor Kathy Hochul. As you know, she recently announced that New York is gonna opt into the Federal Education Tax Credit program.

What’s your take on, on her decision? Wh- why did this make sense for Governor Hochul and New York?

Arne Duncan: Yeah, again, it’s, I think this stuff is just, it’s not hard. It’s common sense. If you look at New York scores, New York has been flat. New York is not making the kind of progress that, that anybody can be [00:13:00] happy about.

And so when you see a problem, you know, as a citizen, as an elected official, as a mayor or a governor, whatever, if you see a problem, you need to try and address it. And, you know, given how tight money is, again, I’m gonna be very clear for your listeners, this is not money that’s taking away from anything already going to districts and going to schools.

This is money on top of that. It’s additional. It’s all supplemental. And so the idea of New York bringing in a couple billion dollars to their state for their children, the chance of Massachusetts to bring again, you know, north of $2 billion on an annual basis, not one time, to children. A governor who’s looking at that, or a, you know, mayor who’s looking at that and, and seeing the achievement gaps, seeing how many students are not at grade level across the country, it’s literally tens of millions of students that’s not at grade level, our hair should be on fire.

And so again, a governor’s– for me, this is not a political issue. Governors across the, the spectrum, unless they are completely [00:14:00] satisfied with student performance in their state, and I can tell you right now that there should not be a single governor in America who said, “Our students are just knocking it out of the park.

They’re, they are where they need to be.” Every governor should be practically thinking about, “How do I help accelerate learning? How do I help accelerate the pace of change?” And one of the best ways to do that would be to bring an influx of new resources, to add more time, to add more learning opportunities to students and to schools and to communities who are the furthest behind

Katie Everett: Secretary Duncan, can you talk a little bit about how this is additive and supplemental, and address, like, how do we let any folks who are concerned that this national education tax credit program may harm public education, or alleviate any concern that this national school choice program will damage large urban districts?

Arne Duncan: Yeah. Well, again, I, you know, my understanding is that governors have a lot of ability to shape this program, [00:15:00] and just looking at some of the polling that’s been done in your state, that by a nearly three-to-one margin, folks in your state supporting this idea like the idea of only serving public school students.

That’s, that’s wildly popular in your state, again, by almost a three-to-one margin, and 57% of respondents in Massachusetts said they’d be interested in redirecting their $1,700 contribution away from the US Treasury and towards a local scholarship-granting organization. And so to have families have a chance to help folks in their community, and with a focus on students in the public schools, you know, I don’t know the exact numbers.

I know across the country, 90% of students in America go to public schools. I assume that’s a, you know, gotta be about the right percent, whether it’s 89 or 90 or 91 or 92 in Massachusetts. The overwhelming majority of students attend public schools, and they’re always gonna attend public schools. And so to help those students and help them catch up and give them a chance to fulfill their true academic and social [00:16:00] potential, that’s an amazing thing to do.

And I’ll, I’ll just sort of make this, you know, very personal for folks to understand. When I led Chicago Public Schools back here in Chicago a while ago, my wife and I, you know, we weren’t wealthy, but we set up a small scholarship program just with our own money to help some of our CPS students pay for college.

I’ll never forget one young man who we helped in a simple application process, but he was a DACA student. He was being denied, you know, federal financial aid, which was heartbreaking, and like many students, he was working to pay for his college here, but he was working 40 hours a week at a gas station And lots of folks work in college.

You know, I worked in college. It is part of what you do, but no one should have to work 40 hours a week at a gas station to go to college. And so it was just a, a, a little bit of money from us, but, like, I still remember it to this day, and I remember getting to know him and just how im- impressed and inspired I was, and I just know how that made my wife and I feel to think we could maybe [00:17:00] alleviate the kind of work he had to do to have the chance to go to college that, you know, the dream he’s worked so hard for, and not just go, but graduate.

And so again, for students now, you know, in third grade and fifth grade and 10th grade, or whatever it might be, students who nu- need a little bit more help, students who need a little bit more opportunity, students who need after-school programming, who need Saturday programming, who need summer programming, who need more time to catch up educationally, the chance for folks to do that is huge.

And I’ll just make one more comment on that, that I hope you listeners will understand that where I would say the challenge in education is that time has always been the constant and learning has always been the variable. So we’re very rigid about time, and that time works well for some students, but it doesn’t work well for others who have all kinds of variation in learning outcomes.

Some students ahead and far too many students behind. I wanna flip that on its head. I wanna make time the variable and I wanna make [00:18:00] learning the constant, and if we can extend time, extend educational opportunity, again, after school, summers, Saturdays, for students that are behind, then we have a chance to not just make time the variable, but to make learning the constant, and to make sure that every young person is learning and is on grade level or beyond that, is accelerating.

That’s the opportunity presented to us right now.

Katie Everett: Yeah, absolutely. Well said. Thank you. Thank you. You referenced earlier the poll that was done by Education Reform Now Massachusetts that was released in June that shows that likely Massachusetts voters would support Governor Maura Healey opting the state into the federal education tax credit by a 53-point margin, right? 68% in favor. Can you talk about the politics of blue state governors opting in or not?

Arne Duncan: Yeah, I, and I have just tremendous respect for Governor Healey, and she’s, she’s actually a friend in this, this small world. If you listen, she was a college [00:19:00] basketball teammate of my sister, so we, we go way, way back and she was a heck of a hooper before she was a, a fantastic politician.

You know, I know there’s some trepidation, I know there’s some fear, but I just think, you know, we all go into… We’re public servants. We go into public office to serve, to make a difference, and this is an extraordinary chance to do that. And for me, again, I’ll go back to where I started, it’s not just to do something affirmatively positive and extraordinarily beneficial educationally.

And again, lots of things we can study in education, but what’s been proven is that high quality, high dosage tutoring is incredibly effective. It’s the most effective thing to help students catch up who are too far behind. The problem is that tutoring is often expensive, and districts, which I understand, don’t have the money to do highly specialized, individualized tutoring for every child who needs it.

Now, here’s a massive influx of money to do that. So we don’t need another study. We don’t need another, you know, five-year [00:20:00] whatever, you know, blueprint or, or work plan to figure this out. Let’s just get a lot more kids, a lot more kids, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of kids, high dosage tutoring, and I promise you we’ll see them catch up.

So it’s not just a chance to do something affirmatively positive. For me, it’s a chance to avoid doing something affirmatively negative. So if you can do something affirmatively positive in your own community for kids that you care about, that’s the decision that, you know, the governor and, you know, mayors and elected officials, but all of us as citizens need to be making now, and the, the choice again could, for me, could not be any clearer.

Katie Everett: Yes. So thank you for your moral conviction based and steeped in all the experiences that you’ve had, and I would love if you’re thinking about, you know, speaking with Bay State legislators and parents or even Governor Healey herself about opting into this federal program, what would be your elevator pitch?

You’re [00:21:00] so persuasive, and your experience and your moral conviction is so extraordinary. Like, what would be your elevator pitch to these folks?

Arne Duncan: Yeah, I, I wouldn’t even say it’s a pitch and, you know, I’ve done this imperfectly all my life, but, you know, my mother was an educator and ran an in-city tutoring program for 52 years and raised my brother and sister as a part of it.

My dad taught at the University of Chicago. We lived on campus. I still live two blocks from where I grew up, so I was… My brother went into education. My sister went into education. It’s been our family business, and I’ve done this imperfectly my whole life, but what I’ve tried to do every day when I wake up is to fight for kids, and that ultimately that’s my job.

I think that’s all of our collective job is to fight for kids, and these decisions that might seem politically complicated or fraught or whatever, I do this all the time at CPS and did it all the time in DC, is we’d have these, you know, interesting and important policy conversations and lots of different angles and pros and cons and everything, and I [00:22:00] would just try and ask everybody at the end of the day, you know, “What’s the right thing for kids?”

And it sounds pretty basic, but when y- you, when that’s your frame, when that’s your North Star, then a lot of stuff, a lot of other things just go by the wayside. And so that would be for everybody, again, not just for the governor, but for legislators, for parents, for everybody, for, you know, school superintendents and teachers is, is what’s the right thing for kids in your state?

And would you rather starve them of opportunity now when they’re already, you know, so far behind? Or would you do everything you could to maximize their opportunity to catch up and be successful? And so that’s, I wouldn’t even call it a pitch, it’s just that’s the values I try, and again, li- very imperfectly, I try and live by is I want to wake up every day and, and fight for kids and fight for opportunity and just figure out what’s the right thing to do for kids.

And then that steers you often. It just gives you a lot of clarity what direction to move, and this one I think could not be more clear. There’s [00:23:00] no advantage to children in Massachusetts to not giving them more opportunities to learn, more tutoring, more after school, more summer school. There’s a massive opportunity to change their lives forever, help them catch up, help them graduate from high school, help them not drop out, help them go to college, help your state, help your state’s economy.

There’s a massive opportunity now. And for the life of me, I just can’t see why anyone would say, “No, I’m good. We’re not gonna do that.” I, I… That boggles my mind.

Albert Cheng: Well, Secretary Duncan, thanks so much for taking your time to, to join us and, and sharing your insights and all your experience, and thanks for all the work that you continue to do for our nation’s kids.

Arne Duncan: A lot more to do, so we’re all in this together, and I appreciate the opportunity, and take care. Hope you guys have a great day.[00:24:00]

Albert Cheng: Well, Katie, wasn’t that special to have the former Secretary of Education on?

Katie Everett: Incredibly special, and really excited that he was on speaking to our Democratic state and voters in Massachusetts. I loved his wisdom, his recommendations, and advice.

Albert Cheng: Great. I’m glad to see him continue to be involved in our nation’s schools.

Well, Katie, I also want to thank you for being on the show as a co-host.

Katie Everett: Yes, it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. Any time, I’d love to do this with you.

Albert Cheng: Great, and before we sign off, of course, let me leave you as we always do with the tweet of the week. This one is from Education Next. Quote, “But the conditions are ripe for this type of innovation.

With the federal government urging accreditors to become more hospitable to innovation, we can expect new types of colleges to be formed in the years ahead.” End quote. And that’s referencing an article by Michael Horn on Education Next about some of the exciting work that he’s doing to create new models of higher education.

So check that out. [00:25:00] Check this show out again next week. We are going to have Professor Ilan Wurman, the Julius E. Davis Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota, and he will come to chat with us about his book, The Second Founding: An Introduction to the 14th Amendment. Well, until then, thanks for listening.

Take care of yourselves, and we’ll see you next week.