Shaka Mitchell on the American Federation for Children & School Choice Options

The Learning Curve Shaka Mitchell

[00:00:00] Alisha Searcy: Welcome back to the Learning Curve podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Alisha Thomas. Searcy, it is good to be back and I’m excited. We’ve got a guest host in with me today. Walter Blanks, welcome back to the show.

[00:00:13] Walter Blanks: Thank you so much for having me. I am excited to dive into our topic today.

[00:00:18] Alisha Searcy: Yes, I am as well. Would you remind our listeners a little bit about who you are and your background?

[00:00:24]

[00:00:24] Walter Blanks: Yes, I am a, uh, spokesperson for the American Federation for Children, which is the largest school choice advocacy organization in the country. A former school choice beneficiary, myself from Ohio, and now it’s working to improve educational outcomes for all children across the country, regardless of what school they’re in or zip code they live in.

[00:00:44] Alisha Searcy: Excellent. Well, we appreciate the work that you do. So normally this would be the time, Walter, that we would talk about our stories of the week, but because Juneteenth is happening this week, we thought it would be a nice idea to focus on that.

[00:00:59] Walter Blanks: This looks such a great idea. I’m really excited to come about today.

[00:01:03] Alisha Searcy: I am too. And so I think for those who may not know, let’s talk a little bit about the history. We know that Juneteenth is a fairly new holiday, not made official until I think it was 2021, under the Biden administration. And essentially it is a celebration of the end of slavery in this country and the beginning of I guess the, we should tell, call it the story of perseverance and culture of African Americans in this country and an opportunity to celebrate essentially how much we’ve overcome, how much we’ve endured and the contributions of African Americans in this country. What I didn’t know, let’s start with some of the history.

[00:01:45] Juneteenth refers to June 19th, 1865, the day when Major General Gordon Grainger of the Union Army ordered the final enforcement of the Emancipation Proclamation in Texas at the end of the American Civil War. So President Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation 1883 as Commander in Chief, but it was only enforceable in states where the Union Army had fully defeated the Confederate forces.

[00:02:11] Juneteenth represents the date by which the Emancipation Proclamation was enforced across the country, and the way Juneteenth started officially was in Galveston, Texas, because June 19th, 1865. So we’re talking more than two years later when enslaved people in Galveston got the news that they, in fact, were free.

[00:02:32] So how about that, Walter, can you imagine, first of all. It is unimaginable to think about slavery and the awful things that happened during that dark time in our history. But then for slavery to end and then people not to find out until two years later,

[00:02:49] Walter Blanks: Yeah, it’s wild. And I always say that there’s a difference between the Emancipation Proclamation and when slavery actually ended.

[00:02:56] One thing that that we don’t discuss a lot is just the technical Sydor going across the country and essentially letting slaves know that they had been freed. Part of me thinks that that was by design. Mm. Um, or just the message kind of fell on deaf ears in certain areas of the country for obvious reasons.

[00:03:15] But like you said, it, it just, it blows my mind that we think today, you know, when a law is passed or something gets to prove, like it’s pretty instantaneously, but two more years is a wild thing to think about. The thing that I really enjoyed, particularly about the Biden administration stepping up and, and addressing this and, and making this a, a federal holiday, was that a lot of people, including black people right, didn’t know the history of Juneteenth, what it represented and some of the realizations that were going on at that time.

[00:03:45] And so he really, his. Team was really able to bring that to the spotlight and, and shed light. I mean, it was a learning moment for me. I knew some of it, but not super well versed. But then I had the question, you know, why aren’t we having these once again, why aren’t we having these conversations in school?

[00:04:01] Why aren’t these moments in history a part of our. Everyday curriculum, even without the federal holiday aspect of it. And I just felt really let down across the board and just was just really excited to see more conversations about it. More corporations stepping up, talking about it. And now it’s a federal holiday.

[00:04:19] And, and this is something that’s talked about every year, not just in the black community, but really across the country, across demographics. And I’m really excited and happy to see that.

[00:04:28] Alisha Searcy: Absolutely points very well made, and I think we should also thank Dr. Reverend Ronald Meyer senior, a medical doctor who died in 2018, but before that, and he was on the mission to make sure that folks knew about Juneteenth.

[00:04:45] He started a whole organization to try to get a holiday and get that recognition. And then a woman named Opal Lee, who is known as the grandmother of Juneteenth, also went on a trek. To Washington DC to bring awareness to the need for Juneteenth. She did a 1400 mile walk along with a lot of others who joined her eventually, and along the way, collected signatures and by the time 2020 happened. This is also the time of the murders of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and other black Americans at the hands of police. It really sparked a new social justice movement and those things came together and she collected over 1.5 million signatures, and that was a huge impetus of how. The Biden administration got involved, as you mentioned, like took the helm and made Juneteenth June 19th, a federal holiday.

[00:05:41] So we thank the administration for that. And then also we’ve gotta give credit to Dr. Myers and to the grandmother of Juneteenth, Ms. Oppel Lee. And so you’re right. It’s such a rich and important history, and what I also love is that, as you said, it’s not just for black people, it’s for this country, for all of us, wherever you come from, whatever your background is, to understand and celebrate what it means to be American, what it means to overcome the contributions of African Americans in this country to celebrate our culture.

[00:06:13] All of our cultures are so important to understand and to get to know. And so here’s a chance to do that this June 19th. And so happy Juneteenth. Um, we hope that people will celebrate. It’s not just for black people, it’s for all of us to come together and celebrate freedom. Well said. Like there’s nothing to add to it. Well, very good. Well, as I said, we’re excited to have you here. Excited to have our guest on today, Shaka Mitchell. And so we are gonna have him when we come right back. Stay tuned.

[00:06:49] Shaka Mitchell serves as a senior fellow for the American Federation for Children. He brings experience from several high performing charter school networks, including rocket ship education and lead public schools that serve over 2,500 students in Nashville. Shaka began his career in education as the associate director of policy and planning at the DC based Center for Education Reform.

[00:07:11] He then led outreach efforts at the Institute for Justice, a constitutional firm based in Arlington, Virginia. Chaka is an alumnus of Belmont University where he teaches American government and constitutional law. As an adjunct faculty member, he earned his Juris doctorate degree from the Wake University School of Law, where he sits on the Board of Advisors for the Journal of Law and Policy.

[00:07:34] Shaka, welcome to the show. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks for having me. You are welcome. So let’s jump in. You’ve become a national spokesperson for charter public schools, for school choice options, and have a powerful personal narrative of success. Can you share with our listeners your formative educational experiences and how they’ve shaped your views on K 12 education reform?

[00:07:58] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah, sure thing. And thanks for that introduction. You know, I think we all have a story about how education has impacted our lives, and for me, I grew up on Long Island in New York, and it was my mom in particular who really stressed the importance of education. But where we live, it was very much working class, lower income community.

[00:08:20] The public schools were very low performing, unsafe even. And so, you know, at first it was just my mom and I, single mom. And with. Some family support with some church support. I was able to attend Catholic school. This was not a Tony kind of suburban private school. It was a lot of working class families, and that I think is important to remember when we think about non-public schools.

[00:08:45] And then later on, my family, we moved to Georgia and I attended. A much better resourced public high school. And so, you know, things weren’t perfect, but I had a good experience there and I always viewed education as kind of the surest way to climb the ladder. I think those experiences, both in New York and then outside Atlanta, showed me that there’s many different ways to achieve positive outcomes for children, but you’ve gotta be really intentional, you know?

[00:09:14] And it also showed me. And I wouldn’t have had the language for it then, but you know, school choice has always existed. It’s existed either for folks who can pay for it with tuition or pay for it with U-Haul, you know, and move to a different geography. And we did both. But the question for me, As I learned more about education in the US the question was what about families who don’t have either one of those options? And so that’s really informed my work and those are the families that I’m most concerned about.

[00:09:46] Alisha Searcy: I love that. So I’m just curious, what school did you go to in Georgia?

[00:09:51] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah, I went to McKees Turn high school. McKees Turn is in West Cobb County.

[00:09:56] Alisha Searcy: Yes, I live in Cobb, so that’s very cool.

[00:09:58] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah. Yeah. And my parents are still there.

[00:10:00] You know, again, loved my time. Very different from Long Island, New York. It’s quite the culture shock.

[00:10:07] Alisha Searcy: Yes, for sure. So I wanna talk about the legendary Jeannie Allen and others. You started your career working for the Center for Education Reform in dc So can you talk about Jeannie Allen’s leadership on charter schools as well as other DC based education reform leaders? A mentor of mine, Kevin Chavis, and folks like that, and the lessons that you learn from them about this work.

[00:10:32] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah, you bet. So that was, I think, a really hopeful time. When I got to DC it was just after I’d finished with grad school, so this is 2004, you know, no Child Left Behind law had been passed. And by 2004, that’s really when the, I would say the teeth were emerging, right?

[00:10:49] We had all of these schools that were low performing, and then the question was, all right, what do we do with it? Mm-hmm. And so it was a really. A good time to be getting into the work of education reform, and I was really fortunate to get a job at Center for Education Reform with Jeanie, and it just felt like we were on the precipice of real reform to what Jeanie used to call.

[00:11:13] The blob, right? The education blob, kind of these big organizations that just kind of all congealed together to muck up the system and keep kids from achieving their maximum potential. It just felt like such a hopeful time. ’cause we were all rowing in the same direction and so. Whether it was Jeannie, you mentioned Kevin Chavis.

[00:11:33] I, that’s when I first met him. Thinking about folks like Don Hints, Gerard Robinson, rod Page, what I would call that sort of original reform community was really impactful to me. One of the things that I saw from them is that most of them had experience working within the system. So whether it was at the US Department of Ed as an elected official, running schools.

[00:11:57] They had some of that experience and so I really took that example to heart when I left DC and then I ended up working for a number of charter school networks. ’cause I, I thought it was really important to go and see the work. So I know we’ll get into some more of that, but mm-hmm. That’s one of the things I learned from them.

[00:12:13] You know, I think a couple other things. I mean, it’s been pretty cool to see how the folks who were the young folks at the time are now in these leadership roles. So people like Starley Coleman and Marty West. I mean, we were just, you know, we were kids outta grad school and just trying to figure it out and just learning.

[00:12:31] And now they’re really leading a lot of this work in their respective domains. Yeah. Um, that’s been pretty cool. Another thing is that at CER and, and now still at a FC, we were really affected by the work and the leadership of John Walton. So that was the first time I learned about John Walton. He was still alive when I got to DC and when I began working at CER.

[00:12:57] And it’s just hard to overstate the impact he had. On making school choice a reality for millions of kids in the, you know, it’s now been two decades since his untimely death, but he had a major impact and I think still shapes a lot of the work that I do at A FC. And yeah, it was a really great time to be there in DC and we just kind of knew, and this might be, might get a little nostalgic on you, Alisha, but I would say then if you were kind of in the reform community.

[00:13:29] You were, you were together, like we were linked up and we were sort of linked arms with charter school people and private choice and Yeah. Teacher compensation, reform leader training and all that. And party affiliation didn’t matter as much. Yes. ’cause you knew that the enemy was this entrenched system.

[00:13:47] And so it was kind of like that’s the enemy, all the rest of the details. So like, let’s stick together. Things have changed a little bit and you know, we might talk about some of that, but it was a great time to be up there. Really grateful for all those lessons.

[00:14:00] Alisha Searcy: Yeah, you definitely took me back to a, a very different time.

[00:14:04] Yeah. In politics and in the world and education and policy. I love that you named some of the folks like Starley, who’s now running the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools and even talking about John Walton and his incredible contribution. So thank you for that.

[00:14:18] Yeah.

[00:14:19] Alisha Searcy: So you’ve mentioned that you’ve worked with some high performing charter school networks, including rocket ship and lead public schools, especially in Tennessee. Can you talk to us about successful charter public schools in Nashville and across the south as well as the school and network-wide leadership required to run excellent charters?

[00:14:40] Shaka Mitchell: Hmm, sure. That’s a great question and. Yeah, I’m really proud of the work that I got to be a part of alongside so many great educators and and leaders.

[00:14:49] And really the proof is in the student’s success, right? And so this May, I saw that a former student at Lead graduated with his PhD in biomedical engineering. That’s amazing to see. Yes. Right. It, it also makes you feel really old. Right. But just amazing to see him. So happy for him and his family. Really powerful.

[00:15:12] But you know, being in charters and really any kind of school leadership, it’s hard work. I would say being in charters is often really thankless work. So yeah, probably too many lessons to name, but I would say that here in Nashville we have a number of great charter schools, and one of the nice things is that.

[00:15:32] We have many different models. So we’ve got some charter schools that are very tech heavy. We’ve got some that are using Montessori method. We’ve got some that are classical. We’ve got some that place really high emphasis on being diverse by design, so there’s lots of cool options. Unfortunately, we also have this dynamic and we just had it because the school board in Nashville just rejected.

[00:15:55] All the charter school applications. I think for the fourth year in a row we could have even more options. But we’ve got a district school board that basically requires a charter school applicant to present a plan that is both novel and has a record of success. And you can’t really square that circle, you know?

[00:16:14] And that’s the story in a lot of places. You have districts that continue to tell parents, oh, just wait a little bit longer. And I think in recent years, you know, parents and state lawmakers just got tired of waiting and so, you know, you’re seeing a lot of that. I would say that a lot of the things that are required of strong leaders in the charter space, it’s the same of any school system, any school model, and that’s having an intentional mission and staying focused on that.

[00:16:44] I think staying focused on a, a small number of things, you can’t do everything. Right. So what are the things you’re gonna focus on? Maybe three things that you’re gonna focus on and do those really well? I think being responsive to parents and to the community that you are serving. You might have a great model, but if nobody in your area is asking for it, well,

[00:17:04] You know, you need to be responsive and meet communities where they’re at. But I would say also hold yourself to high standards and just sit down like here’s gonna be our measures of success and that’s what we’re orienting towards. And then you go up and achieve it. So yeah, the sector in Nashville, it’s been really encouraging, but at the same time, we could be doing so much more if we could sort of like loosen the chains of the district.

[00:17:31] Alisha Searcy: Yes, indeed. I appreciate that. I’ve got one more question before I turn it over to my guest, co-host, Walter, and that is, you’ve talked about this a little bit, but I, I wanna go a little bit deeper. For decades now, charter public schools have been very controversial. Unfortunately, but in recent years, charter school politics have become even more complicated and contentious as the political landscape across the country has become radically fragmented, which is really sad. Can you talk about where the right left Charter coalition stands, and what do you think needs to be done to bridge those political divisions around charters?

[00:18:08] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I don’t know that I would say that charters are. So controversial, but I would definitely say that they are still misunderstood. Right. So for instance, I mean many people still don’t realize that charters are tuition free public schools. A lot of people still don’t realize that. Right. You know, in my mind, charter schools and non-public schools would’ve private independent schools. They’re just modes of providing a range of educational options to families.

[00:18:37] There’s nothing. That is sacrosanct about either model. There are good and bad individual schools across the board, unfortunately, which to me is why having a range of options everywhere is crucial. So I think some of the controversy that you rightly name some of the controversy has come up when we start linking specific types of educational models with a specific political party.

[00:19:06] When we do that, that’s when I think we start to miss the point. So, you know, in the first place, these alignments don’t last forever. As we know, partisan majorities in a given state don’t last forever. So if you want lasting change, I really think that building kind of bipartisan or cross partisan support is important.

[00:19:26] But in the, in the second place, look at what happened in many places in the South in particular, during COVID. You know, you had a lot of charter schools. Made decisions that were aligned with district schools. Well, the problem in my mind is that. Many of the district schools were in lockstep with teachers unions and ended up staying closed far too long.

[00:19:50] And so they did that and then lost the trust of a lot of parents. Lost the trust of a lot of lawmakers, and I think that has been a really harmful effect, and it’s been challenging for some charters to rebound from that. Now that being said, I think it’s happening. The trust is being rebuilt as people say, see, hey, the model still works and kids are being served well, but I think it’s a reminder for all of us that we’ve gotta be student-centric and not politically motivated, and that that goes for charter schools, for conventional public schools, private schools, whatever. We’ve gotta be student-centric. I love that. Hey, Walter,

[00:20:29] Walter Blanks: Hey, good to see you. I was just with you in DC so good to connect again. So you have a pretty extensive legal experience and did some things with the Institute for Justice, which is the premier public interest law firm successfully litigating before the Supreme Court on massive decisions like Espinoza v Montana, Carson v Macon, amongst others. Could you discuss with us what you’ve learned from IJ about using the law to impact school choice policy?

[00:20:58] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah, for sure. So I had the really great fortune to work with, you know, some of the OGs of school choice litigation, chip Miller, Dick Comer, Clark Neely, Tim Keller, Michael Binus, others, and you can see how that IJ diaspora really created a legal movement across the country where people realized that there is power in using strategic litigation.

[00:21:25] In affirming and enhancing individual liberty. And so I was really fortunate to be a part of that team for a number of years and carry those legal lessons, but also that work ethic and culture with me to other places. You know, one of the things that I’ll say continues to be really important in my work today is at IJ I learned the importance of passing laws that can be successfully defended in court.

[00:21:51] Because one of the things you see is often there’s a rush to pass laws that are trendy, but in the context of school choice laws, you really gotta consider the legal ramifications of legislation because the other side stays ready to pounce, right? As soon as we pass a law, we know that the other side is ready to pounce.

[00:22:15] And they don’t mind suing a program, challenging a program because they view that as sort of the last gasp of protecting the status quo system. So advocates need to be really careful to pass laws that can be defended in court, and that’s something that I learned from IJ continues to be super relevant today. You know, as we pass more laws than ever in recent years, that advance educational freedom.

[00:22:42] Walter Blanks: I think that’s such a good point too, because I think whether it’s the general public or state legislatures, you know, they’re focused on the big win, right? Like getting a path, getting it done, you know, all the, all the things that go along with that.

[00:22:55] And like you said, more often than not, the people who oppose it are, are ready with lawsuits and all of those other things. And so that’s, that’s a really good point. Thank you for sharing that. And so, of course, in. Recent years, especially after COVID, we talked about two massive Supreme Court decisions on private school choice, along with enormous growth in educational savings accounts, tax credits, along with even some voucher programs. Would you talk with us about ASCs leadership on this making private school choice kind of a reality and kind of that legislative process?

[00:23:27] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah, you bet. Well, as you know, it’s been a really exciting time, right? I mean, since what, I guess 2019, we keep calling it the year of school choice, and then the next year is again the year of school choice.

[00:23:39] And this year’s gonna be no exception. I mean, we’ve recently saw Texas pass this law that’s gonna serve a hundred thousand kids in the first year. So really exciting times. You know, back in 20 19, 20 20. AFCs board and leadership set a goal of replicating the success that we saw in Florida. And at the time, you know, Florida had tax credit scholarships, they had vouchers and ESA program.

[00:24:05] Lots of charter schools families just knew that they had options. And so our board and our leadership thought, well, what would it look like if we had five Floridas? And you know, we had some specific metrics that we looked for. Funny thing about setting specific goals, you start to drive towards those goals.

[00:24:24] And so I’m really proud of our team because we set some kind of firm targets that would require legislation and then we just pursued those goals. You know, you fast forward and we have Universal eligibility choice programs in 19 states, so I think part of it. Is just giving credit to, again, our board, our leadership, or setting some targets that were bold at the time and have only grown and we’ve really kept our foot on the gas.

[00:24:54] And I wanna be clear that there are a lot of hands in the work. So, you know, we’ve had great partners at the local, state, national levels, but our, our team is really good. Our team is super focused. I will also say, you know, last point on this is that AFCs kind of related entities, we engage in elections too, and that is very important.

[00:25:16] I mean, telling voters we are candidates stand on these issues is crucial. Because you know, we know that education choice is supported by a majority of Republican voters, democratic voters, independent voters. So it’s really, really powerful when you see voters demand education options at the ballot box that has downstream effects on the types of programs that you can pass when the legislative session is in. So really important work and yeah, I’ve been proud to be a part of it.

[00:25:49] Walter Blanks: Yeah. I love how you broke it down from the kind of just general advocacy, but also getting involved in elections. That’s, as we’ve seen over the past few years, that’s been a super, super important component as far as expanding options, but also having more conversations about what’s really working for families across the country and on that point of what’s working, what’s not working.

[00:26:11] A lot of states, particularly red states, have of course, expanded school choice over the past few years. Are there any issues that you’re seeing as far as accountability and academic outcomes that families might be seeing or, or should be aware of in the future as these programs like expand pretty rapidly?

[00:26:30] Pretty quickly? If so, what are some things that parents, state and local policy makers should be thinking about when it comes to those issues, but also addressing decades long education reform struggles as a whole, as it tied to accountability and academic outcomes?

[00:26:47] Shaka Mitchell: Yeah, that’s a great question, Walter. I mean, you know, a FC, I’d say we continue to believe that you need to balance a few things. We are holding in the balanced parents’ choice and their right to choose options for their children who they know best. You’re holding educator innovation. We want new schools to start, new models to start. We don’t know what is gonna happen in five years, what technology is gonna make possible in five years, and then you’re also bouncing just legislative realities.

[00:27:18] Lawmakers want to know if the programs that they pass are actually benefiting constituents. And that’s not gonna change. So I think in our context, it means that in the coming years, especially as I mentioned, we’ve got these programs that have passed in 19 states in the coming years, we have got to come up with ways to show the value of these programs.

[00:27:41] And I know that not everyone agrees on how to do that specifically, and that’s fine. We can use multiple methods, right? We can use parent satisfaction, we can use nationally norm reference tests. We can use college attendance and civic outcomes. Lots of things. But you know, think about the recently released study, which you know really well, the study on the EdChoice program in Ohio.

[00:28:05] It showed that students, and especially lower income, black and brown students who participated, did significantly better academically than their peers. That is really powerful stuff, I think. And so we’ve gotta be able to show value for all these new programs that are coming online. That’s critical. You know, if I’m looking in the crystal ball a little bit, I would say that the era of mass producing.

[00:28:31] A hundred thousand square foot buildings to warehouse 1500 students is over. And so that means we’ve gotta start a lot of new schools, probably smaller schools. It also means that we’ve gotta have policies that reduce entry barriers to this. We’ve gotta get startup capital in the right places. We’ve gotta deal with things like accreditation issues, et cetera.

[00:28:54] And then, you know, the final thing is that, and this doesn’t change, but if we’re going to, Radically reform the existing educational landscape in the country, especially in blue states that haven’t had access to choice programs yet, or haven’t enacted choice programs yet. It’s gonna take political courage.

[00:29:16] Lawmakers, policymakers are gonna have to do hard things sometimes, like closed schools. I just learned of a public school in Chicago that has 27 students. This is not a micro school. This is a big public high school. 27 students and 28 faculty members. That school, it’s Frederick Douglas Academy High School.

[00:29:37] It spends nearly $94,000 per pupil. To keep that school open. Wow. Wow. 94 thou, wow, that’s crazy. So who in Chicago has the courage to admit this is not working? And then meanwhile, the state of Illinois let the Illinois Tax Credit scholarship program lapse. So another couple thousand students had to leave the private schools that they were enrolled in because they couldn’t afford them anymore.

[00:30:03] So that doesn’t make any sense. So we need political leaders who’ve got the courage to make the hard call sometimes. But the hard call will support families. I really believe that.

[00:30:13] Walter Blanks: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s a really good point. And you mentioned Blue States, or just states in general that have kind of lagged behind the school choice movement as a whole, especially over the past few years.

[00:30:24] We have the Educational Choice for Children Act in play at the federal level, which was narrowly passed. The Republican back bill was narrowly in the house last month. And as of, I believe yesterday, the Senate has their, you know, their own version of the School Choice Provision. So. Provide for us the new kind of what the Senate is thinking from their proposed version of this, along with kind of the wider contour strengths and weaknesses, and the likelihood that this legislation will pass at the federal level.

[00:30:56] Shaka Mitchell: Definitely. So this does feel kind of like breaking news, but it could be breaking news for another month or two months. You know, we, we don’t know. The process at the federal level is a really complicated one, and particularly when it’s in a. A big piece of legislation like the budget. But as you mentioned, just yesterday, the Senate Finance Committee released language for what would be a new federal school choice tax credit program, and hopefully folks don’t glaze over when say federal school choice tax credit program, because it is, that’s lengthy. But basically the program would allow taxpayers in every state to get a federal tax credit when they contribute to a scholarship granting organization. And we have already seen these in 19 other states, but. When we see them at the state level, it applies to state income tax, right?

[00:31:50] So not every state has state income tax. My state doesn’t, Tennessee doesn’t, for instance. So that program wouldn’t make a lot of sense in Tennessee. But what’s new about what we’re talking about now is that it would apply to your federal. Income tax liability. And so this program would really be a game changer for families in states that don’t have access to other state-based choice programs.

[00:32:15] So think about California, New York, Michigan, Nevada, Connecticut, states like that. So the program would allow, per the version that was introduced by the Senate, it would allow $4 billion to be contributed annually to families, you know, for these scholarships and families could use the scholarships for K 12 educational expenses like tuition, supplemental tutoring, tech.

[00:32:41] It would kind of function. Like an education savings account, a little bit like that. And we’re probably talking about over half a million children using it each year at a minimum. So big numbers, who knows that $4 billion number could grow? I don’t know that anyone can really. Put odds on how the language of this legislation and this program might change in the coming weeks.

[00:33:08] But in terms of whether or not it can pass, this is the furthest any bill has gotten, any program has gotten at the federal level in history. So I’m really encouraged. I’m really hopeful, again, for kids who are in states that don’t have a program like this. I’ve got. A niece and nephew in California, and I would love for this to pass because they don’t have great public school options where they are.

[00:33:34] And it costs a lot of money both to live in California and then to send your kids to a private school, right, or to get supplemental help for them. And so this would be a tremendous benefit to them. And like I said, hundreds of thousands of kids every year. If this passes.

[00:33:52] Alisha Searcy: Well, thank you, Shaka. This has been a great conversation today. You’ve talked to us about a lot of different things, public and private, and we appreciate that and just appreciate the work that you do and your voice. So thanks for being with us.

[00:34:05] Shaka Mitchell: Oh, thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

[00:34:18] Alisha Searcy: Well, Walter, that was a great interview. Shaka is fun and has a lot to say, and he’s doing a lot of great work.

[00:34:25] Walter Blanks: Yeah, I always enjoy talking with Shaka and just getting his perspective on a ton of different things, whether it’s chickens in the backyard or actual policy and law and all that kind of stuff. So really enjoyed that conversation.

[00:34:37] Alisha Searcy: Definitely, definitely, definitely. Well, before we let folks go, we’ve gotta talk about the tweet of the week. It comes from Education Next, and this one was really good. I feel like we need a whole show on this conversation, but it says, if elections do not hold officials accountable for performance, and if community engagement is low, then local control may be more symbolic than substantive, an empty vessel, we continue to praise without asking whether it delivers. So this is a whole piece about essentially the role of school boards, how effective they are or are not, and maybe some ideas about some different things we can do in terms of the construct of boards to make them more effective, focused on student achievement, and maybe even change how they are created. So make sure you check out that article on education Next. Walter, thank you for being with me today. It’s been fun.

[00:35:29] Walter Blanks: It’s always a pleasure. Let me know about the next one. The answer will always be yes.

[00:35:34] Alisha Searcy: Well, good. That is great to know. We appreciate that. And so for our listeners, be sure to join us next week we’ll have John Burch. He is the Paul e Prosumer Professor of American Literature at Brandeis University and the literary executor for Robert Penn Warren, the Pulitzer Prize-winning poet and author of all the Kings Men. We look forward to seeing you next week. Hey, this is Alisha. Thank you for listening to the Learning Curve. If you’d like to support the podcast further, we invite you to donate at pioneerinstitute.org/donations.