Pulitzer Winner Rick Atkinson on the American Revolution’s 250th Anniversary

The Learning Curve Rick Atkinson

[00:00:00] Alisha Searcy: Welcome back to the Learning Curve podcast. Hello. It’s good to be back. I’ve been away for a couple of weeks, but excited to be back and excited to have another guest, co-host Kelley Brown. We had a great time when we were together, glass, so welcome back. Thanks, Alisha. It is awesome to be back. Wonderful.

[00:00:42] For folks who may not have heard our last episode together, why don’t you tell people a little bit about yourself?

[00:00:48] Kelley Brown: Sure. Well, I am a high school history and government teacher in East Hampton, Massachusetts, and I also do a lot of professional development and instructional coaching for other teachers, and so I spend a lot of time not only thinking about history and government, but also trying to make it accessible for young people.

[00:01:09] So it’s really fun to be here today for this podcast, which is so relevant to the work that I do.

[00:01:15] Alisha Searcy: Absolutely. Well, we’re happy to have you back and we’ve got a great show today, but of course we’ve gotta get into these articles and news stories of the week, and I’m gonna go first. I came across an article that really got me excited.

[00:01:30] I am really big on accountability. I feel like I need to use a different word because maybe it could be. Annoying to people, but when I’m talking about accountability, I’m talking about, you know, having the right assessment in place and making sure that we have the right information so that we can make data-driven decisions, you know, for kids, making sure teachers have what they need, et cetera.

[00:01:54] And so in the 74, there’s a great opinion piece from Brown and MCIs. I hope I’m saying that name correctly. It’s entitled, let’s Make Na, a True National Yardstick for Local Autonomy. In this article, the authors are, co-authors are pointing out that it might be a good idea as all of these changes are happening with the usaid.

[00:02:18] You know, we’re not quite sure what’s gonna happen with NAEP. Maybe this is an opportunity to rethink how we administer assessments in this country. And so, as people know, NAEP is administered to basically a sample of fourth and eighth graders in the country. Not all fourth and eighth graders actually take the assessment.

[00:02:39] And so in this piece, they’re suggesting that maybe this should become the national test for all. Fourth and eighth graders that’s taken every single year, and that would in fact take the place of state assessments. I wish we could have a whole show on this, but I’ll just go over a couple of quick points I think are really important.

[00:02:59] Kelley One is that the importance of having consistent and academically rigorous measures of student performance. We know that different states have different assessments and so therefore they are reporting higher proficiency rates on their own assessments than what’s happening on the NAEP. And so those of us who follow this, we know that we probably trust NAEP.

[00:03:23] Scores more than we would the states because of that inconsistency and having this national assessment would kind of remove that discrepancy. I think that’s a really strong argument for schools that are receiving title funding. They also point out that I. Expanding NAEP would provide parents with a more accurate picture of how our children are performing relative to their peers nationwide.

[00:03:48] And as someone who was a part of the common core conversations, which I know was very unpopular then, and probably even more unpopular now, I think the goal was. We wanna be able to compare apples to apples in terms of what students were learning in terms of standards, but also in terms of assessment.

[00:04:07] And so here’s a way to accomplish that where we can really know how students are doing across the country. And so I could go on and on and on. I thought this article was really good, really important. I’m looking forward to continuing this conversation. One other point that I’ll add. Before I hear your thoughts on this, Kelley, is that it would also save states money because we spend hundreds of millions of dollars at the state level administering these state assessments, right?

[00:04:38] You’ve gotta create ’em, you’ve gotta grade ’em, do all of the things, and so think about how much time. Resources, money would be saved if states were not responsible for the assessments in terms of, you know, these high stakes tests, if you will. And so if you think about what that could do for, you know, what a teacher could focus more on rather than the state test, they would be able to.

[00:05:05] Focus more on instruction. Wouldn’t that be exciting? So just some things to think about. So I thought this was a great article. I think it’s a really important conversation for us to continue to have, and where many of us are worried about all the changes that are happening at the federal level. I think the overarching point here too is that maybe this gives us an opportunity to rethink some things, or how about that for a silver lining.

[00:05:29] Kelley Brown: Well, I’ll tell you, that really brings to light to me something, one that overlaps with the current event that I’m hoping to talk about, but also just the idea that teachers, legislators, parents, community members, you know, what we all really wanna know is how are we doing? What do we need to change? And I think at the center of your current event, Alisha, is just that idea of how do we best determine how well we’re doing at this stuff so that we can get better.

[00:05:57] I’ve never met a teacher that didn’t wanna get better, and certainly good data could help us to do that. And I’ll tell you, there’s a lot of overlaps in the current event that I brought today, which comes from the Brookings Institution. So I have actually a podcast that they did on May 8th. And they had a question they were looking at, which is, does civic education make more engaged citizens?

[00:06:21] Alisha Searcy: Hmm.

[00:06:22] Kelley Brown: And that really drew me in. Except spoiler alert, they don’t really answer the question in the podcast. Oh no, but that’s okay. ’cause there’s some really interesting stuff. The host talked with Rachel Pereira, who is the Robert and Virginia Hartley chair of government at the institution, and it really tells the story of how civic education kind of fell to the wayside in the wake of the No Child Left Behind Act that was passed during the presidency of George W. Bush. The ACT itself required states to establish these accountability systems and math and science in order to receive federal funding. And so we saw states shift their attention to those subjects and civic and history education, and I got left behind under President Obama. Congress did pull back on some of those accountability measures, but by that point, she points out.

[00:07:13] The infrastructure was so ingrained and kind of entrenched that not much has been done to walk that back. So civics and history kind of getting left behind. And another point she makes that I think really aligns with some of the stuff you’re talking about, Alisha, is that the lack of emphasis on civic education means there’s also less research being done.

[00:07:35] So it’s harder to actually understand the impact of civic education on citizen engagement. Hmm. The second part, and again, strange overlap with your current event. Carrera and the host dig into some of the current events around the dismantling of the Department of Education and the current politics around that.

[00:07:56] But really by looking at how the department came to be in the first place. So they talked a little bit about some of that federal legislation that started in the sixties, like the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, title VI of the Civil Rights Act. Eventually the individuals with Disabilities Education Act, states and local governments as a result of those laws were dealing with all different federal agencies.

[00:08:22] And it was confusing and it was hard to figure out exactly what they needed to be doing. And so when the Department of Education was created, it was really an efficiency effort to bring these programs under one umbrella, which brings us basically to her main point, which again. Kind of links back to your current event.

[00:08:41] Really the vast majority of education policies happening at the state and local level. Not the federal level. And you know, they talked a little bit about states like mine, Massachusetts, which are experimenting with different methods to use civic education, to engage more citizens and to sort of create those engaged citizens.

[00:08:59] And she argues that these current discussions may be showing us. That at least some folks don’t really understand how federalism works when it comes to education. My main takeaway, and this is a, I think a message for all of us is get involved at the local and state level. It really matters the most when it comes to education, and a small number of people can affect real change.

[00:09:22] Alisha Searcy: So I’m inspired. I am inspired too, and I love how you ended that with an action item. Like, let’s get involved. That’s. That’s the best civic education we could ever have, right? Yeah.

[00:09:35] Kelley Brown: And let’s pay attention to what really impacts us directly. And I think that we can be distracted sometimes by what’s coming at us and forget that message.

[00:09:45] Alisha Searcy: Yes. I love it. I love it. Thank you, Kelley. Great story. And I’m a. I never taught civics, but I was always very interested in as a student and right of no surprise that I ended up going into politics again. It’s always great to have you, and I appreciate so much what you’re doing and bringing this article to light, so thank you for that.

[00:10:06] Thank, there’s much to be done at the federal level, right, in terms of assessments, but when it comes to delivering the content and we want our, what we want our students to know, there’s a. Really big roles to be played at the state and local level, and that includes us being involved. So thank you for that story.

[00:10:22] We’re gonna have a great conversation today, so stick around. We’re gonna have coming up after the break. Pulitzer Prize winner Rick Atkinson talking about the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution.

[00:10:47] Rick Atkinson is the number one New York Times bestseller author of seven previous works of history, including The Long Gray Line, the Liberation Trilogy, an Army at dawn the Day of Battle. And the guns at last light, as well as the British are coming. The War for America, Lexington to Princeton, 1775 to 1777 and the fate of the day, the War for America fought to Conga to Charleston.

[00:11:17] 1777 to 1780, the first two volumes of the Revolution Trilogy. His numerous awards include Pulitzer Prizes for History and Journalism. Mr. Atkinson, welcome to the show.

[00:11:29] Rick Atkinson: Thank you, Alisha. Thank you for having me.

[00:11:31] Alisha Searcy: So let’s jump in. The first volume of your American Revolution trilogy, the British are coming, the War for America, Lexington to Princeton.

[00:11:40] 1775 to 77 opens with the scene quote. In June 17, 73, king George III attended a grand celebration of his reign over the greatest richest empire since ancient Rome. Less than two years later, Britain’s bright, future turned dark. Could you set the context for us briefly by describing 18th century Great Britain?

[00:12:06] Its vast, imperial, economic, and military might, and why its policies towards their North American colonies went so drastically wrong.

[00:12:15] Rick Atkinson: And I’ll try and be succinct about it because it’s a big topic. Britain as a consequence of its victory over the French and the Spanish. In the seven years war, we call it the French and Indian War in 1763, had created the first British Empire.

[00:12:28] And not only did they have vast tracks of land that. Became part of the British Empire, including rich Sugar Islands in the West Indies, Canada, half billion fertile acres west of the Appalachians in America. They also became the unrivaled, preeminent commercial power in Europe at that point. They have the greatest Navy the world has ever seen.

[00:12:53] They have a large professional army and they have colonies that extend from, you know, Virginia and the other 12 American colonies to India. So they are big, they’re rich, they’re arrogant, and they believe that the world should operate on a mercantile basis in which they extract raw materials from their colonies, including America, require the colonies to buy finished goods and restrict manufacturing in those colonies so it doesn’t compete with manufacturers in the mother country of Britain.

[00:13:24] That’s where we are. There are frictions that develop over this. Famously, Americans don’t like it. Britain has left soldiers in North America at the end of the French and Indian War. Americans don’t like that, and Britain is deeply in debt as a consequence of the war, and they’re trying to claw back a bit of money from, and it’s very little actually from the Americans, and the Americans don’t like that.

[00:13:48] So that’s where we are.

[00:13:50] Kelley Brown: So let’s take it to the other side. In the British coming, you wrote, quote, Samuel Adams was ready for them. An undistinguished petty official who had squandered a family malt house fortune. Adams ran an impressive political organization, deftly shaping public opinion through a newspaper syndicate that for years told other colonies what life was like in a free town occupied by combat troops.

[00:14:16] End quote. Would you tell us about Samuel Adams, his Boston compatriots, and the military circumstances leading to the battles of Lexington in Concord in April of 1775?

[00:14:28] Rick Atkinson: Yeah, I, I mean, Samuel Adams in some ways is a failure. He’s basically burning through a family fortune, but he’s a brilliant propagandist, as a number of the Americans are.

[00:14:38] It’s one of the reasons why we, the Americans are so successful early in the revolution. The Massachusetts colony generally, Boston specifically, feels much put upon by the. Demands in the British, they have several British regiments stationed in Britain. They feel occupied. There are frictions. There are things like the Boston Massacre, that’s part of the propaganda that the Americans sell it as a, as a massacre, and it is a killing.

[00:15:06] So by the time we get to 1775, the Patriot leaders, including Adams and John Hancock. You know there’s a messenger that they use a lot of silversmith named Paul Revere. They are pretty well organized and they are ready for a clash of arms. The King Georgia third has said blows, must decide. He’s sick and tired of the Americans.

[00:15:30] The. Boston Tea Party, which has occurred in December, 1773, in which Patriots disguised as Indians heave a fortune in tea into Boston Harbor, has really aggravated the king, his government parliament, and there’s a slide toward confrontation, and that confrontation is gonna occur on April 19th, 1775 when the British send a column of 800 troops to seize munitions in Concord About.

[00:15:58] Almost 20 miles from Boston. And of course there’s gonna be gunfire, Lexington Common, where eight Americans are killed, more gunfire in Concord, and then the British are gonna be sent reeling back to Boston under fire the entire way. And that’s the beginning of the revolution.

[00:16:17] Alisha Searcy: Hmm. So in the British are coming note that the central military figures for the American cause.

[00:16:25] Included, quote, Henry Knox, the former bookseller with an uncanny understanding of artillery. Nathaniel Green, the blue-eyed bump, who becomes a brilliant battle captain. And General George Washington, the commander in chief who learned the difficult art of leadership when the war seems all but lost in quote, would you compare the leadership of General Washington and the Continental Army?

[00:16:51] With the key British generals like Thomas Gage, John Bergon, and Charles Kowa, and their highly organized and well-equipped force of the red coats.

[00:17:03] Rick Atkinson: Washington is the long pole in the 10th throughout the, he is the indispensable man famously throughout the revolution, and he’s gonna be the commander of the continental army for eight years, and he’s pretty extraordinary at it.

[00:17:14] Even though he is not a particularly good tactician. He doesn’t see the ground properly on occasion, so he botches the Battle of Long Island, for example, he boxes the battle of brand new wine. He’s got a good R for subordinate talent. So he sees this overweight 25-year-old Boston bookseller named Henry Knox.

[00:17:31] And somehow Intuits, this guy’s gonna be the father of American artillery. He sees a lapsed Quaker anchor Smith from Rhode Island named Nathaniel Green, and somehow Intuits. Green is gonna be second only to Washington as the indispensable man in the continental Army. So this is a, a gift that Washington has for identifying these important subordinate figures.

[00:17:54] The British have a very experienced army. The Officer Corps is quite experienced as a consequence of the. Long war that they have fought against the bourbon powers, France and Spain in the seven years war. So there’s a sequence of generals who are here trying to win the war, and they’re trying to win it quickly.

[00:18:11] ’cause they don’t wanna spend the money. They don’t want France and Spain to come into the war. This isn’t gonna happen. Their strategic ambitions basically are thwarted and they’re thwarted in part because they’re incomprehensible. The sequence of generals is largely undistinguished, starting with Thomas Gage, who is a commander in Boston when the war begins.

[00:18:33] He’s married to an American. He knows America pretty well, and yet he has underestimated the resolve of the rebels once the shooting starts. He’s underestimated the extent which there are enough loyalists loyal to the crown among the Americans to really rally and help to defeat the insurgency. He succeeded by William Howell, whose brother Richard is the commander for the Royal Navy on the North American station.

[00:19:00] He is an outstanding British fighting sea dog, one of the best British admirals of that era. I. But William is not particularly capable. Uh, he’s, he’s, uh, the Peter, principal incarnate. He’s been promoted beyond his natural level of competence and his heart’s not really in, and so he’s gonna be the commanding general for a couple years.

[00:19:20] He succeeded by Henry Clinton, who also knows the Americans pretty well, ’cause his father and admiral had been the Governor General of New York. Henry had spent part of his childhood in America. He also is not out output. The task is ous. He’s constantly bickering with other generals and particularly admirals.

[00:19:40] There’s, and you know, he just, and there’s never an admiral that he likes. There’s gotta be some deal with his father going on psychologically. So, George iii, our last king. Who is nothing if not a hard liner. He at one point, late in the war, he plans to advocate if the government will not be as resolved as he is in maintaining a hard line against the Americans.

[00:20:05] He’s basically ill served by his generals. There are some good ones here, but they tend not to be the senior commanders and they’re gonna have a sequence of setbacks. They are forced to. Because they’re waging a counter insurrection. Because they’re waging an expeditionary war. They have to win the Americans or.

[00:20:29] The insurrection and they’re fighting on their own turf. They have to not lose. This is the way of insurrections. We see it in Vietnam, we’ve seen it in Iraq, Afghanistan, and this puts the onus on the British and they’re never quite able to solve the problems in actually winning.

[00:20:49] Kelley Brown: Hmm. What’s really clear with these Americans is, is that they’re taking incredible risks.

[00:20:55] In discussing your book, the Fate of the Day, the War for America for TaeKwonDo, ROA to Charleston 1777 to 1780, you’ve spoken about how studying history helps answer, quote, the most profound question any people can ask themselves, what they’re willing to die for. Could you discuss how the American Revolution can help us better understand our forefathers, the principles and ideals they cherished or failed to uphold, and what the American Patriots were willing to die for?

[00:21:29] Rick Atkinson: Yeah, Kelley, it’s, you know, I think it’s a pretty significant question, particularly as we swing into the semi quincentennial, which sounds like a medical procedure, but it’s actually the 250th anniversary of the founding of the country, and it will be a cause for celebration and commemoration, and hopefully reflection about where we came from and what our forebearers believe, including these foundational questions.

[00:21:53] You know, I think it’s important to remember that we’re the beneficiaries of an enlightened political heritage handed down to us from that revolutionary generation. It includes personal liberties and strictures on how to divide power and keep it from concentrating in the hands of authoritarians who think primarily themselves.

[00:22:16] It’s vital that we not allow this precious bequest to be taken away from us or to slip away from us, or to be oblivious of the hundreds of thousands who have given their lives to affirm and sustain it. Over the last 250 years. I think that is the essence of what the revolution and our celebration of the semi quincentennial is about, what they’re willing to die for.

[00:22:43] It depends on who you’re talking about because it’s our first civil war. It’s as nasty as every civil war. It anticipates the Civil War, and there are about 20% of the 2 million white Americans. Who are not willing to die for the Declaration of Independence. They’re committed to preserving the American relationship with the British Empire.

[00:23:10] They’re loyal to the Crown, they’re loyal to Parliament, so they have an entirely different view of it, and that’s why you have this clash between peoples. Now, for the rebels, certainly some of them are just trying to stay out of the way. As always happens when war. You know, the hot rake of war is Churchill called, it comes through your town or your county, or your state.

[00:23:31] But for most of them they see in a somewhat in coic fashion at that time, the opportunity for not only an independent country, a, a republic, they have vague ideas of having a republic in which we are calling the shots, but also for a better future for themselves, for their children, and for us. They see a country from sea to shining sea.

[00:23:55] They’re, they’re aware that there’s a Pacific ocean out there, and that this is potentially a continental power. So the dynamic of the revolution is very complex. It shifts over time. The composition of the continental army shifts a lot over time and the reason that people are doing what they’re doing, whether it’s fighting for a new country or whether it’s fighting against separation from the mother country, or whether it’s just trying to duck and cover and stay outta the way, is really complicated and trying to understand it, and at times it’s very difficult to understand because it is so confused over the course of eight years.

[00:24:38] Alisha Searcy: So I wanna stay on the fate of the day a little bit more, and in it you begin with a detailed description of the extravagant court life of the French Monarchy of Louis 16 and Marie Antoinette. And while researching for your new book, you were also granted access to the impressive papers of Great Britain’s King George iii.

[00:25:00] Can you briefly tell us about the 18th century world of European kings and queens ministers and imperial politics, as well as contrast it with the lives and politics of the leaders of the American cause?

[00:25:14] Rick Atkinson: Let me talk specifically about the French Court first. Yeah, the, the new book, the Fate of the Day opens in Versailles.

[00:25:21] It doesn’t open in New Jersey, and it does that because I want the reader to meet King Louis the 16th. He is a Catholic absolute monarch. The task for the Americans at this point in the spring of 1777 is to persuade him Catholic absolute monarch to throw in his lot and support Protestant. Want to-be Republicans bent on armed rebellion against their lawful monarch.

[00:25:51] That’s a heavy lift diplomatically. Oh, yes. A man who’s charged with making that happen is a Septa Arian named Benjamin Franklin. He is in Paris when this book opens. He is just arrived in December of 1776 as our first and ultimately our greatest diplomat. And he is going to do what’s ever in his power, ultimately successfully to persuade the king to fully support the revolution, not just in a clandestine way where he is allowing smuggled gun power and weapons to come to America, but he’s gonna send an army in a fleet.

[00:26:29] We also meet his beautiful. Spin thrift Austrian Queen Maria Antoinette, known around the French Court as Madame Deficit because she’s an important character and understanding the dynamic of the French court. So the, you know, we’re gonna be back in Versailles and in Paris periodically because this dance that’s going on between Franklin and the French government is going to go on until after the.

[00:26:56] Successful battle against the British at Saratoga in the fall of 1777. The French are going to basically exceed to Franklin’s requests, you know, across the English channel in London, you have Georgia third. He’s not the tyrant that Jefferson calls him in the Declaration of Independence. He’s not the royal brute that Thomas Payne calls him in common sense, which is published in January, 1776.

[00:27:25] He’s not the sinister of Minnie who princes across the stage every night in Hamilton singing You’ll Be Back. He instead is a constitutional monarch, Patriot king who, uh, is a child of the enlightenment. He’s a. Major supporter of the arts and the sciences, and he is determined for reasons that are fundamentally wrong.

[00:27:47] I think in retrospect that he is not gonna permit the American colonies to slip away, partly because he believes it’s the beginning of the end of this first British empire that it will encourage insurrections in Ireland, Canada, the Sugar Islands of the West Indies with the real money in. And in India.

[00:28:06] And so he’s just absolutely bent on maintaining the status quo with the American colony, subservient to the empire. So that’s the lay of the land, and that’s quite different than what’s happening in America where. First of all, the colonies have been largely left alone for more than a hundred years.

[00:28:26] They’ve been given a lot of autonomy and they’ve become accustomed to governing themselves. But when the British decide that they’re gonna impose taxation, when they decide that they’re gonna leave military regiments in America, this grates and you know. Push is gonna come to shove and it’s gonna lead to war.

[00:28:46] So these are three quite different political constructs with quite different visions of what the world can become, and they’re gonna collide in the American Revolution.

[00:28:59] Alisha Searcy: Thank you.

[00:29:00] Kelley Brown: I’m wondering if we can move away from politics for a minute to the battlefields. You noted in the fate of the day, quote, by the winter of 1777, the exhausted continental army could claim only that it had barely escaped annihilation by the world’s most formidable fighting force.

[00:29:19] End quote. This volume captures the brutality and raw violence of the American Revolutionary War. Could you talk about the soldiers on the battlefields, the conditions under which they fought? Help us better appreciate the extreme hardships that the Patriots endured.

[00:29:37] Rick Atkinson: Yeah, Kelley, I can definitely talk about it.

[00:29:39] I am primarily a military historian, so it’s mostly what I write about. Yeah. First of all, killing in the 18th century in combat is quite different than in the 21st century. It is usually intimate, close range, eyeball to eyeball, often with a bayonet. Yeah, that’s partly because 18th century muskets are largely inaccurate beyond 80 yards, and mostly hopeless beyond a hundred yards.

[00:30:05] So it requires foes to close with each other and to fight hand to hand, or certainly a very close range. You know, 25,000 Americans at a minimum died during the American Revolution. It could be many more, could be 35,000 or more. It’s a larger proportion of our. Population to die in any of our wars other than the Civil War.

[00:30:29] The majority of them die from disease, not from gunshots, not from Cannon Fire, because the diseases savage, both the armies and civilian populations smallpox. Sometimes called the king of terrors. Typhus, the greatest killer of armies over the centuries. Typhus is spread by lice. It’s known as jail fever, ship fever, and it spreads.

[00:30:55] When people are in confined spaces like tents, typhoid, dysentery, it’s a long list of infectious diseases that really decimate population. 18th century medicine is hardly worthy of the name of the default. Treatment for many physicians is bleeding, where you just make an incision and let blood run out thinking that the bad humors are gonna go with it.

[00:31:18] It’s an awful treatment. It makes things worse rather than better. So, you know, what we see throughout the war, really for the eight year duration of the war, is the Americans suffering. American soldiers suffering. They are badly clothed. They’re badly equipped even when the French come into it and begin providing substantial assistance.

[00:31:41] Nevertheless, at places like Valley Forge in the winter of 77, 78, it’s not that cold a winter, and it doesn’t snow that much. But more than 2000 American soldiers die at Valley Forge mostly of disease and malnutrition. What we see is. Hardship of a sort that’s pretty difficult to imagine in the 21st century.

[00:32:03] We see the army. Changing quite a lot. The vision that we often have of a patriot leaving his plow in the furrow to grab his musket off the mantle and go off in defensive freedom is largely mythical. After 1775 when there have been a lot of free holders and shopkeepers and so on who have taken up arms against the British, they begin going back to their shops and their farms and their families because they can’t ignore them anymore.

[00:32:34] And so the army increasingly is composed of the young, the indigent, the shiftless. Sometimes a lot of immigrants, particularly Irish immigrants who’ve come because of crop failures and the collapse of the weaving industry in Ireland. And so the complexion of the army by the time we get to 1777 and through the rest of the war is really quite different than it has been early in the war.

[00:33:01] And it’s a challenge for Washington and his major subordinates to grapple with. Desertion is such a serious problem that Washington at one point says, we shall be obliged to send one half of the army to bring back the other half. And he is not far wrong. He is not exaggerating by a lot. These are the challenges for keeping the army together, for making it a legitimate fighting force against the pretty substantial British force, which also includes 30,000 German mercenaries, the Hessians, and again, the greatest Navy the world has ever seen.

[00:33:39] We don’t have an Navy to speak of. The Continental Navy is hardly a Navy worth speaking of. We do have a lot of privateers. They’re kind of legitimate. Pirates and they’re authorized to go out and take merchant ships and even fight British warships. And they do. And they’re gonna be 2000 British vessels captured or sunk during the war.

[00:34:00] And this is an important part of our fighting force. But again, it’s very complex. It seems hopeless at times. Washington retreating out of New York, across New Jersey, the Army’s down to less than 3000 men. He writes to his brother as he crosses the Delaware westbound into Pennsylvania. I think the game is pretty near up game.

[00:34:20] Looks like it is pretty near up. They rebound. They keep hope alive. But you know, as late as May of 1780 where an American army is trapped in annihilated in Charleston, 5,000 men killed or captured, it looks pretty dark again. So this is the ebb and flow of this thing we call the Revolution.

[00:34:40] Alisha Searcy: Mm-hmm. So I wanna talk about Captain Lafayette.

[00:34:44] The American insurrection so alluring to the French soon infected the Captain Lafayette, you right? He conceived of an expedition to the new world as a way to affirm his political convictions, correct the insults of the seven years war and avenge his father’s death at the hands of the British. Would you tell us about the young French officer Lafayette, his connection to General Washington and how he, the French and Benjamin Franklin helped play such a decisive role in the success of the American cause?

[00:35:18] Rick Atkinson: Yeah, I mean, he is Gilbert er. We know him better as the Marquita Lafayette. He is a spindly 19-year-old redhead who has decided that, uh, you know, America’s the place to be. He is infected with the enthusiasm for the American cause. He’s one of the richest boys in France. His father has been killed. His father was a colonel in the French Army.

[00:35:38] He has been killed fighting the French in the seven years war. So there is an element of revenge in his enthusiasm for fighting the British. The king has told him not to go. He’s been very explicit and he ignores the king’s order. He buys a ship. He sails from Bordeaux with a small group of Boone Companions.

[00:35:57] He arrives in South Carolina, makes his way to Philadelphia, and then makes his way north of Philadelphia to the little and Shaman Creek where Washington is camped with the continental army about to begin the 1770 campaign. Uh, and he shows up and he is got. He has been only a captain, which is a low rank with very little military experience, but he’s been given a major general’s commission in the Continental Army.

[00:36:23] Washington isn’t quite sure what to do with him. They hit it off right away, partly because Lafayette has learned English, he. During the Voyage to America, he’s got a gift for language. His English is pretty good by the time he meets Washington and he comes as a, he’s a supplicant. He’s not throwing his weight around.

[00:36:39] Like some of the European soldiers of Fortune are announcing that they are here to lead the American cause. ’cause they know what they’re doing. Lafayette’s not like that and he’s going to prove his medal as a battlefield commander. Uh, Washington comes to see that he is trustworthy on the battlefield.

[00:36:56] He’s. Given substantial command. More important, he is a conduit into the French court. Washington recognizes again that the game at this point is to get the French to come into the war on our side. And Lafayette, even though he is irked the king mightily by disobeying, he still has a lot of influence and he’s going to use that influence and Washington’s gonna use him.

[00:37:20] To try and get his way, our way with the French. He is a fascinating character. He has abandoned his wife and child to come to America. You know, we’re gonna see him for one thing. He’s got the attribute that Napoleon most cherished in his generals, which is luck. He’s lucky on a number of occasion on the battlefield, and this is not unimportant in warfare, so we name towns, schools, counties, mountains after him here for a good reason because he’s important to the success of the cause.

[00:37:54] He’s important to Washington. There’s almost a father son relationship there and he immediately develops lots of friends, American officers like him. They respect him. He develops friendships, particularly with the French speaking officers like Alexander Hamilton, John Lawrence, and others. So the, the fact that we remember him fondly is entirely legitimate.

[00:38:17] Kelley Brown: I find Lafayette to be very fascinating, a very interesting character. But I’m gonna ask you one final question, and then I’m hoping that you’ll share a little reading, a little passage from your book with us. Sure. So finally, quote, the months and years that follow bring epic battles at Brandywine, Saratoga, Monmouth, and Charleston.

[00:38:38] A winter of misery at Valley Forge and yet more appeals for sacrifice by every American committed to the struggle. For freedom End quote, and you note that in Faith’s fate of the day as we celebrate the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution and prepare for the Ken Burns series this coming fall, what are the enduring historical lessons about empires, republics, wars, and democratic ideals that Americans should most remember?

[00:39:06] Rick Atkinson: Yeah. Oh, well, that’s not a small question. It’s a good one. Yeah. Kelley. I, I, I’ve been involved with the Ken Burns next project for about three years. It’s a 12 hour, six part film on the revolution, which will air on PBS beginning November 16th. I’ve seen the whole thing. I’ve been involved. Not only on camera and looking at the scripts and critiquing the film, but also now in helping him to promote it.

[00:39:33] We were in Lexington and conquered together in April, and we’re gonna be in other places together. It’s a fantastic film and I think that all Americans interested in this subject will find it really to be something. I think one of the points he makes, and it’s a point that I make in the fate of the day, is that we’ve got a lot to be proud of.

[00:39:54] We’ve come a long way in 250 years. We’ve come a a long way in diversity in power. A population now of 337 million compared to two and a half million when the revolution began. But there’s work to be done. The dream endures, but so does this struggle. One of the librarians of Congress, the poet Archibald McLeish once wrote, the democracy is never a thing done.

[00:40:20] It’s always something that a people must be doing. We know that’s true. You know, we know that’s true in 2025 when we look around and we see things that are. Besetting and besieging and bothering us. And the fact that we are deeply divided in, in many ways, it is something that a people must be doing. And I think that looking back the revolution, we can recognize that we’ve faced great challenges previously in the revolution, in the Civil War, in the Great Depression in World War ii, existential threats, and we found strength.

[00:40:56] And cohesiveness sufficient to make our way through them. And that should be a source of book pride and strength to us. I’m hoping that’s what people will take away from the semi quincentennial.

[00:41:07] Kelley Brown: That’s a great way to end. I’m wondering if you do have time, if you’d be willing to just read a short passage from your book for us?

[00:41:16] Rick Atkinson: Uh, yeah. I will read a passage. This is a paragraph basically from the Battle of Ay. Ory is in southern New York in the Mohawk River Valley. It takes place on August 6th, 1777. There are hundreds of American militia in New York militiamen who are moving west through the Mohawk River Valley, going out to relieve at a.

[00:41:38] Fort where there were continental army troops being besieged by British German and their Indian allies. And this militia force is ambushed at AY on August 6th, 1777. And this passage is from that long, terrible afternoon. It’s one of the bloodiest battles in the entire revolution. And my passage goes like this.

[00:42:06] Fathers and sons died together. Neighbor killed neighbor. Iroquois killed Iroquois. Parched men scraped holes in the bog and used their brog to scoop out a few ounces of muddy drinking water. Gun smoke settled in a dense fog over the road, and drum fire subsided to the heckling of sniper shots. An abrupt violent thunderstorm at midday dampen powder and further cut visibility.

[00:42:34] Halting the carnage for an hour. The rain stopped. Musket fire resumed. By mid-afternoon after sixth hours of mayhem, the ambushes had begun to leak away, dragging their wounded. The American men, the living the dead, and those not quite either. Still held the place of nettles as this ambush site was called when the last shot faded to silence except for Birdsong.

[00:43:02] The wounded men, mewing like lost children. So that’s the end of the Battle of a Risk, which many people have not heard of, but is an important moment, really awful moment in the revolution.

[00:43:18] Alisha Searcy: Wow. Thank you for that, Mr. Atkinson. It’s been great to have you. We’ve enjoyed hearing from you and learning more about the American Revolution, the many key players in it.

[00:43:29] So thanks for taking the time with us today.

[00:43:31] Rick Atkinson: Thank you, Alisha. Thank you, Kelley. I, I enjoyed the conversation.

[00:43:35] Kelley Brown: Well, thank you so much.

[00:43:49] Alisha Searcy: All right, Kelley, that was a great interview. Great information. So much that I hadn’t realized before, so it’s great to have Mr. Atkinson with us today. I completely agree.

[00:44:00] Kelley Brown: One of the things about being a history teacher is that you read a lot, and one of the things I really appreciate about his work is the way in which he paints this very vivid picture of what’s happening.

[00:44:13] You know, you can feel. Tension. You can feel the tinderbox that is occurring at, you know, at the beginning of the revolution, just by the way that he describes the scenes and that very detailed description. And so hearing him talk about his work and all of these events is really just so impressive and engaging and exciting for someone like me who’s teaching history every day.

[00:44:38] Alisha Searcy: It is, and it’s always great to hear you asking the questions and getting responses. I love it as you’re learning in real time, and I’m sure there’s, there’s more that you’ll be able to share with your students now that you’ve had this interview.

[00:44:50] Kelley Brown: Absolutely. And I just, I can’t wait actually to go back and share some of these details with my students who I know will love these little stories that they don’t always get exposed to.

[00:45:01] Alisha Searcy: Yes, exactly. Well, very good. It’s as always, great to have you. Thanks for co-hosting with me today. Before I let you go though, we’ve gotta talk about the tweet of the week. It comes from Education Week. People speak differently than they write. Isn’t that the truth for comprehension development? Children need exposure to syntax, common to both.

[00:45:24] So it was a very interesting article about, as teachers are teaching students to read the oral part and talking to them is also important to help them. Make the connections between how we speak and what they’re reading. So very interesting article. Make sure you check that out. As I said, Kelley, great, great to have you.

[00:45:46] Um, we look forward to having you again sometime as our guest co-host.

[00:45:50] Kelley Brown: Well, it was awesome to be here and I always appreciate you welcoming me onto the podcast and it’s wonderful exposure for me to meet with these folks and hear what they have to say. So thanks for having me.

[00:46:02] Alisha Searcy: Absolutely. You’re welcome.

[00:46:04] And for our listeners, make sure that you join us. Next week we’ll have Michael Duffy. He’s the President of the Great Oaks Foundation in NYC. We’ll see you next week. Hey, this is Alisha. Thank you for listening to the Learning Curve. If you’d like to support the podcast further, we invite you to donate at pioneerinstitute.org/donations.