Ian Rowe & Steven Wilson on The Lost Decade

The Learning Curve Ian Rowe And Steven Wilson

[00:00:00] Ian Rowe: Hello, and welcome to a special episode of the Pioneer Institute’s Learning Curve podcast. My name is Ian Rowe. I am a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and also a founder of Vertex Partnership Academies, a virtues based international baccalaureate. Public Charter high school in the Bronx.

[00:00:38] This is a special episode ’cause I get the pleasure of interviewing Steven Wilson. For those listeners who haven’t been familiar with Steven’s work, Steven true pioneer. For those of us who have worked at. School world for many years. Steven was a trailblazer and made it possible for many of us to be able to do the work that we have done in launching public charter schools and learning from his work.

[00:01:07] Steven is a senior fellow at the Pioneer Institute. And he is the founder and former CEO of the Ascend Charter Network, which he grew into a network of 15 schools of more than a hundred million dollars organization, educating primarily low income students, more than 5,000 students in. Steven graced us all with a new book entitled The Lost Decade, returning to The Fight For Better Schools in America.

[00:01:42] Steven, welcome. I’m so excited to be able to talk with you about the book.

[00:01:46] Steven Wilson: Yeah, and it’s wonderful to be back with you.

[00:01:49] Ian Rowe: Excellent, excellent. And I’ve had the pleasure of actually speaking with you about the lost decade before. For those of you who have not had a chance to read it, I strongly encourage you to do so because it takes a very sobering look.

[00:02:04] At what has transpired in the education reform movement, particularly the no Excuses movement, that unfortunately went down a path of woke ideology and anti-intellectualism. And Steven, maybe, you know, spend just maybe 30, 60 seconds on just a quick synopsis on the history. ’cause my hope actually is for this conversation to pivot a bit, not only to look.

[00:02:31] Backwards of what we both experienced and, and I, you know, I can share my stories as well of looking at some of the downfall of some of the best institutions, best charter school networks that seem to take a very different direction around student achievement. But to pivot a little bit from looking at sort of the autopsy.

[00:02:50] You know what went wrong with education reform? To pivot to what’s actually going right. Who are the players that we think are demonstrating the kinds of commitments that you articulate in the book? And we’re gonna get into those. Of how things should be working. So for those who who haven’t had a chance to read the book and really get a sense of the history that you paint, do you wanna just give a relatively quick synopsis as we pivot to looking forward?

[00:03:20] Steven Wilson: Certainly, and I, I love the idea of turning to the forward looking piece. Yeah. So in essence, the book describes a more or less a hundred year long. Procession of anti-intellectual school reforms that were launched in the name of democratizing education, but actually had the effect of excluding students from the rich, vibrant liberal arts education that has through that whole period benefited the affluent.

[00:03:49] Then notes that the most recent instance of this, and really the apotheosis of this trend is the social justice movement in education, as I call it, circa 2020. So leading up to that, we had an extraordinary success story, which was urban charter schools, and on the left, on the right from Brookings to Stanford.

[00:04:14] Identifying this particular reform as a total game changer, as capable of closing longstanding achievement gaps of not just race, but class and of pointing the way forward towards equal opportunity in America. But it was derailed, as I said, around the beginning of our decade, hence the name of the book, the Lost Decade, by a very anti-intellectual movement that displaced the North star of these great schools, which was academic achievement and great instruction, and instead adopted as the.

[00:04:53] North star, something called anti-racism. And this has turned out to be, I think, a very consequential, wrong term. And the book explains why. We’ve seen, as you’ve alluded to, a dramatic loss of achievement outcomes for kids. So the whole effort of course, to make sure that children can. Have a wealthy life in every sense.

[00:05:15] Can flourish, can escape minimum wage. Jobs has been greatly impeded in the last few years. So that’s the essence of the book, that this movement will end up leaving the very students that it hopes to help the already marginalized, more excluded, less educated, more vulnerable. And the book ends, as you say, with a call.

[00:05:37] To action and how we can restore the movement in the second half of the decade.

[00:05:43] Ian Rowe: Great synopsis and, and I was with you, you know, during that time and in fact, probably one of the best examples of this kind of turnaround is the kipp, you know, the Knowledges Power Program, which for 20, 25 years was again a pioneer in the charter school network and had probably one of the most effective taglines in any sector.

[00:06:04] This idea work hard. Be nice. In those four words, they encapsulated the idea that for students, your effort matters and your character matters. Right? There was no illusion that Kids wouldn’t face all sorts of obstacles, but in those four words, work hard, be nice. That really embodied what the charter sector and education reform movement was all about.

[00:06:33] But as you say, in those days of 2020, in the post, George Floyd, you know, KIPP made the decision. To retire that slogan, which of course any organization has the right to change how they market itself, but it was for the reasons. And you point this out well in the book, you know this idea that work hard, be nice?

[00:06:52] No, no, no. We have to retire that because quote, meritocracy is an illusion that being nice is somehow submissive. And, uh, you know, it’s all, most people don’t know what KIPP replaced that slogan with. I believe it’s together a future without limits, you know, which I consider very milk toast. There’s no verb in this.

[00:07:16] Steven Wilson: Not only is there no verb, but it’s a, it’s a platitude. And more importantly, I think it doesn’t have a vision of what we’re going to do. It doesn’t say how we’re going to create opportunity.

[00:07:29] Ian Rowe: Correct, correct. So again, I encourage everyone to read. Steven’s book ’cause you get a real sense of the history prior to the innovations of the education reform movement.

[00:07:41] But then you know much of the downside of how this anti equity driven ideology really hurt us. You just said Steven hurt the very students that I think we’re all committed to help, but all is not lost. There is good news and, and as you write about, there are some new principles that we should focus on.

[00:08:03] I, I love how you phrased in this last chapter about the path forward. You say, we can equip all children. With a rigorous and engaging liberal arts education, an education that arouses curiosity, cultivates compassion, and upholds reason we can place before students only tasks and activities that are worthy of them, elevated, rigorous, and engaging.

[00:08:35] We can return to creating a new generation of schools that lift achievement for all students and build a more equitable and just society. I love the way that you articulate what is possible. So let’s start there, Steven. Is this happening? Like despite all the challenges that you saw over the last decade, are there any bright lights that we can point to that you think, reflect how you describe the vision you’d like to see for all schools, even though we’re not there as yet?

[00:09:07] Steven Wilson: Oh, I think there absolutely are, and, and we could both identify beautiful examples. I, I would name schools and institutions that stuck to their vision, that didn’t lose sight of their commitment to academic excellence as the way of empowering students. You know, ignorance is not empowering. Not teaching students how to read critically, how to do mathematical analysis, how to know the history that precedes them.

[00:09:42] That is not empowerment, that is condescension. So there are schools that didn’t go that route. For example, the Brook schools in Boston. Had the fortitude amongst their leadership to stay true to their values and commitments, and their results continue to soar over the rest of the charter sector in Boston.

[00:10:04] And of course, the Boston Public Schools in our neck of the woods in, we have, of course, success Academy, the largest charter network in the city. Eva I think has much in common with these other leaders, Eva Moscovitch, the the CEO, in that she has the power of her convictions even under intense pressure from some of these forces.

[00:10:27] Intense pressure from new staff and others to change the school’s practices. She stayed true to her commitments and as as a result, success continues to tower over the New York Charter sector outcomes that are two x that of the New York City schools. Another wonderful network in the city is the Classical Schools Network.

[00:10:52] Ian Rowe: Lester Long.

[00:10:53] Steven Wilson: Yeah. If you go to Lester Schools, statistically you have a 95% chance. Of remaining on track to college and career, what an extraordinary thing that is. Whereas, and this is where it gets a little darker, if you take the next four largest networks. In the city after success, their proficiency premium over the New York City schools.

[00:11:20] That is the percentage of students that are found proficient, which is a proxy for being on track to college and career fell by between 50 and two thirds. Wow. Over the five year period. So reverting to the mean, we gotta stop that. That’s not okay. For the charter sector to survive, it has to post extraordinary outcomes.

[00:11:45] Ian Rowe: So is the key there just, is it a failure of leadership? Like what we makes the difference? We both cited specific people, whether it’s Lester Long or Eva Moskowitz, is that the bulwark is, what’s the lesson to be taken away.

[00:12:01] Steven Wilson: One lesson to be taken away is that you have to stay true to the North star of great teaching.

[00:12:08] The concept that great teaching and academic achievement is the key to opportunity creation. There is no shortcut or alternative indoctrinating students in a particular. Political philosophy, however well intentioned, is not actually empowering. It’s stifling. And so what those networks have in common is a very deep seated commitment among their leaders that if we truly want to empower children, and if we really want to make the world a better place, we must.

[00:12:44] Educate students, so they have real power, the power of an education, the power of knowledge. They continue to hold to that commitment.

[00:12:55] Ian Rowe: I wonder if that commitment to your convictions is also at the root of what seemed to drive the success of another set of schools and that were religious schools, particularly Catholic schools.

[00:13:09] Did you see that as well, post pandemic and the aftermath of George Floyd? That Catholic schools, actually, first of all, many of them remained open. And had in-person instruction during the post COVID era, but also some of them didn’t fall prey to some of this woke ideology ’cause they were already grounded in certain truths for how they operated.

[00:13:32] Did you observe that same kind of phenomenon?

[00:13:35] Steven Wilson: Yes, I absolutely did. And since the book came out, I’ve heard more and more about that from parents and educators and Catholic school leaders. I think you’re absolutely right. They too were less susceptible. To this mistaken ideology and wrong term because, as you say, of their longstanding commitments, both values, commitments, but also educational and academic and instructional commitments.

[00:14:00] So I, I think that’s absolutely true. And Catholic schools, as we’ve long known, have had a sharp focus on academic teaching.

[00:14:10] Ian Rowe: So one of the things you write about in the book, and again, the path forward that I think is so important, you really hone in, we’re both Edie Hirsch acolytes. We’re, we’re this belief that whether you like it or not, there is a core body of knowledge that exists in any society and in any culture.

[00:14:27] And if there isn’t a deliberate effort. To have young people, particularly young people from communities where they may not have organic access to this body of knowledge. If, if a school isn’t deliberately, intentionally teaching it, those kids are, are gonna be on the periphery. So classical schools for a time, were doing some work with core knowledge, which you write about so well.

[00:14:52] But where do you see that fitting in right now? This idea that there is a body of knowledge that we should be teaching kids and. It’s controversial because once you say, well, we want everyone to know this aspect of history or this piece of knowledge, you know, sometimes you get cultural wars of folks fighting for, well, it’s not diverse enough, or there aren’t, you know, writers that are fully represented.

[00:15:16] How do you think about that? And again, are there any models that you have seen that have taken on this question of ensuring that their students have access to a core body of knowledge?

[00:15:28] Steven Wilson: Absolutely. So first of all, I, I entirely agree with you. I am very devoted to Ededie Hirsch’s insights, and it’s, and it’s stunning and I must admit somewhat baffling to me that there would be so much controversy surrounding it.

[00:15:42] Look, we can contest and we should, What particular authors, what kinds of readings make it into this curriculum? And that’s fine. And, and I, you know, I feel very strongly that any curriculum or canon that we adopt in a network that I would run would be very diverse. And if we’re educating students of color, especially, they should be reading a substantial body of work.

[00:16:07] By people like themselves in which they can recognize themselves. You know, it’s the windows and mirrors idea. We should have mirrors so that we see ourselves represented cultures, our own cultures, and we should have, we should have windows because students are innately curious. Probably more curious about the.

[00:16:25] Unfamiliar. That’s a great gift of humankind, is to be curious. And we want our students to be cosmopolitans. We want them to be comfortable with a great variety of cultures. So I think that all these high flying networks are succeeding because they have hers and like curriculum, very ambitious curriculum where students read very broadly across different.

[00:16:47] Ages and types of literature and authors and cultures, and that’s what we should be doing. So I think to your question, Ian, we are just at the moment where, in fact, I’m quite optimistic that this idea that we need to attend to knowledge building and to a Hershey Andlike curriculum is about to take off.

[00:17:04] I really think that’s possible. The reason I say that is in part because we have at last, won the first part of the battle. Which is phonics instruction as a way of equipping students with the ability to decode reliably. But people mistake reading comprehension as another skill. It’s not the reason we understand what we read after we learn how to decode it is because we have this accretion of knowledge pieces from which we make sense of a complex text.

[00:17:35] So we have to do that deliberately. We have to build knowledge in our students.

[00:17:39] Ian Rowe: Yes. And one thing I would actually push you on, because I, I’ve often heard the phrasing around windows and mirrors and this idea that kids need to see themselves and their work, and you and I both get what that means on a sort of universality level.

[00:17:55] But sometimes people take that phrase very literally in the sense of, you know, if you are at a class. That’s predominantly of a certain ethnic group or a certain gender or whatever it may be that the phrase see themselves is kind of reduced to these superficial elements of race and gender and I often it’s not, of course, again, we should have a racially diverse, gender diverse set of authors of topics.

[00:18:29] But I really try to focus on this idea of our common humanity when we’re talking about themes that we want kids to read so that we don’t narrow the choices that we are, you know, putting in front of kids. Does that make sense?

[00:18:45] Steven Wilson: Oh, it entirely makes sense and I think that we can find. A balance between these concerns. Right. But I entirely agree if we go too far in that direction, which you’re questioning, and I agree with you, it ends up being another form of condescension because we’re really saying you’re only going to be interested in say, novels or poems that are about people in your immediate neighborhood. You’re immediate community. And that is, I think, deeply condescending. Yes, I really think it is.

[00:19:13] Ian Rowe: And not only is it condescending. It also could lead you down a path where you reject. Yes. Some of the greatest works, right?

[00:19:21] Steven Wilson: So very much so. And that is encouraged by academics in education who say that, you know, Shakespeare is colonialists and racist.

[00:19:31] And so there are lots of modern writings that could substitute for them that are just as good Now, that’s just absurd. Shakespeare is a once in a millennium writer, and how terrible that we would deny students the chance to. To read his work. So yes. And the other, the other reason this comes up is because, again, according to this kind of polo philosophy that teachers are.

[00:19:58] Acculturated in schools of education, there is the oppressor knowledge and the oppressor knowledge has to be rejected. So, you know, you get into, well, all those texts are part of oppressor knowledge, so we can’t expose our students, and that is absolutely absurd. Of course.

[00:20:13] Ian Rowe: Yeah. And this, what Steven is saying here is not just theoretical, there is a movement in New York City to remove Shakespeare from the high school curricula.

[00:20:23] There are folks strongly advocating for that, and we’re recording this session on the day after the Democratic primaries in New York City. So we don’t know who yet will be the mayor, but directionally, if chancellor’s chosen, that seems to be, you know, aligned with the ideology of the folks that won last night.

[00:20:43] We could see that. We could see this happening.

[00:20:46] Steven Wilson: So yes, it’s a very, it’s a very real risk. You’re absolutely right. This is not just conjecture of hypothesis. It really could happen.

[00:20:53] Ian Rowe: In the book, Steven, one of the things that you write very strongly, and again I wanna challenge you little or or expand on this, is that you write that the purpose of schools is to educate.

[00:21:05] This idea, everything else is a distraction. You know, it’s maybe well intentioned, but still at the end of the day, you know, undermines children’s academic attainment. So one of the things I would love to chat with you about is, you know, for someone who’s just launched. Virtues based high school. How do you think about moral formation and character formation?

[00:21:30] When you’re thinking about this idea of the primary purpose of schools is to educate, how do you think about that? And again, are there, are there models you’re looking at that seem to be, even if their primary intent is education, they also seem to have this strong element of moral formation or character development.

[00:21:51] Steven Wilson: Oh, I, I just love that you brought this up, that it’s, I, I never get the chance to talk about this. So what, what a treat. So, first of all, just quickly to jump back to what you were saying earlier, I really wanna agree with you that the purpose of reading is both to understand ourselves better, which is very important to me.

[00:22:07] A good novel gives us insight into who we are, but it’s also to recognize our common humanity. Cross identity differences. This is what is overlooked. But on the moral point, I quite agree with you. I think that if we read broadly and especially if we read great works, I know we can dispute what great works are and that’s fine.

[00:22:30] Great works. Always have. Profound moral content. One of our biggest problems in American, American life right now I think, is that we’ve lost touch with essential virtues. I would name one in particular, but I’m tempted to name two. But the, the one I’m thinking of, Ian, is honor. Mm, honor is lost and we cannot have a successful society and culture without a strong sense of honor.

[00:23:00] And what it means to be honorable and dishonorable is dishonorable to lie. It is dishonorable to cheat on an exam. It is dishonorable to hand in a paper that was written by chat, QBT, et cetera. Whether these kinds of values or virtues are taught explicitly or through. Literature and history or a combination of the two.

[00:23:25] I think it is vital that we have a clear sense that our responsibility includes advancing a moral education. In the past, I would’ve thought that was fusty or old fashioned. I no longer do I think our nation. Is really in trouble and schools have an obligation to restore. I mean, of course teaching moral education at at the beginning of public education in this country was fundamental identify, absolutely would’ve been identified as its core purpose even.

[00:24:00] So I think that’s, I’m very glad you raised that. I think that’s very important.

[00:24:04] Ian Rowe: Yeah, I mean, if you study any of the founding fathers, you’ll find lots of statements that basically reflect this idea that if we want to create a self-governing free society, The people who inhabit that society have to have the ability to self govern themselves

[00:24:22] Steven Wilson: and and be able to self

[00:24:24] Ian Rowe: govern some level of virtue.

[00:24:26] Steven Wilson: Yes. And part of that virtue is an insistence on the truth, on truth seeking, and then conducting one’s self truthfully and expecting that of others. That is how we resist demagogues. That is how we discern. Truth from falsehoods. That is how we become immune to misinformation and disinformation. And with the onslaught of ai, we are going to be buried in ai, sludge and shoulder need to be able to see truth from falsehoods.

[00:25:02] So this is absolutely essential. By the way, one of the ways that the social justice education. Movement went off track. Was that it? It scoffed at the very idea of truth. It said that truth is a phantasm, there is only power. So instead of reading texts and nonfiction and fiction to find truth, to discern what is true, they taught students to read texts, to discern power structures.

[00:25:31] That is a very different and narrow way of reading a text.

[00:25:34] Ian Rowe: Wow. So powerful. I, I feel compelled. The Share Vertex Partnership Academy, it’s a school we launched, is organized around the four cardinal virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom, everything, the curriculum, our rituals, the reward system, our discipline system all emanates from these four virtues and we, we actually applied, we created what are called.

[00:26:02] I statements for each virtue that all students, every single morning recite these I statements. So for wisdom, to your point about truth, the I statement for wisdom is I make sound judgments based on knowledge of objective, universal truth. Our students, you know, cite that every single morning, you know, or justice.

[00:26:28] I uphold our common humanity and honor the inherent dignity of each individual. You know, so for us, these virtues are central. You, you know, you’re not special because you’re black, or you’re a girl, or you’re trans or whatever, right? You are, you are special. Because we all share this common humanity, and for us, you know, these virtues are foundational.

[00:26:53] It it, it’s as if we can’t get to anywhere else, unless we have everyone in our community agree that it’s kind of a collective commitment. So when our students say these words every morning, we are agreeing on how we’re gonna be with each other. I do think it’s a central element that’s not spoken about enough as we think about the vision for schools going forward,

[00:27:19] Steven Wilson: and I love that, Ian, because what you’ve just done is you’ve connected knowledge and what we were talking about earlier, knowledge, building knowledge as power with values because in anti-racist education.

[00:27:34] It is said that there is no truth. There is only my truth or your truth. Yeah. It’s standpoint theory from academia. This is profoundly alienating and it’s a kind of nihilism to say that we can, and of course it defies common sense. We can in fact identify. What is real and what is false, and we have a moral obligation to do so, and that is of course, how we stay aligned and find common purpose together across differences.

[00:28:06] Ian Rowe: Yes, and it’s especially our responsibility as the grownups.

[00:28:11] Steven Wilson: Totally, absolutely clear. And it’s also connected to probably what will emerge as another theme in our discussion if only we had time, which is the importance of optimism. If you see there is no truth if you say that. We all look at the world differently through our lens of.

[00:28:28] Identity. It’s a profoundly pessimistic message that we’re forever isolated in our own identities. No, that’s completely not true at all. We can see across difference. We can be together on this earth and common purpose. Let’s tell students that.

[00:28:45] Ian Rowe: Yes. Well then let’s talk about something that I’m seeing that I’m excited about that I think actually very much embodies this focus on virtue, this focus on knowledge, this focus on high quality instruction, focus on professional development, and that is the classical schools movement.

[00:29:07] It seems that many states across the country, perhaps it’s a bit of a backlash to what parents saw coming out of COVID. Again, a backlash to kind of the woke ideology that parents said, wait a minute, you know, I don’t, I want all kids to succeed, but I don’t want my kids to go into a classroom where they’re immediately being put into an oppressor or an oppressed box.

[00:29:31] You know, give me a better option. And the classical schools movement seems to be an answer that is growing. Have you observed that? Is this something that you are thinking about as maybe one big next step as we think about the path forward?

[00:29:49] Steven Wilson: Absolutely. I think that this is one of the most interesting developments is the surge in interest in the classical education.

[00:29:57] I don’t think it’s the only way to embody the direction and principles that you and I are describing, but it’s a very powerful idea. I like to think of, of one particular instance actually, Ian, the Great Hearts Academy. Which in pursuing a classical education, they have gone from a network that began mainly educating middle class or more affluent students and have successfully moved into low income communities and student populations with no loss of results.

[00:30:28] I think this is. Absolutely fascinating proving that this kind of classical education can work with all types of students of every level of privilege.

[00:30:39] Ian Rowe: Why don’t you describe what is classical education and how does it differ from a traditional education that a student may experience in a traditional classroom?

[00:30:49] Steven Wilson: Well, for one thing, I think it recognizes that they are classical texts from across cultures and periods that remain just as relevant today and that all students should be exposed to. So in a way, it’s kind of the distillation of the liberal arts education commitment that we read widely, that we know another language that we understand.

[00:31:16] History that we can speak as a, that another language. All these things are the cornerstones of a liberal education, and maybe the distillation of that can be seen as a classical education. But I, I would love your, your thoughts on this and how you would define it.

[00:31:33] Ian Rowe: No, no, I, I very much agree that, and to this point about back to Hirsh, that there is this idea that there is a body of knowledge.

[00:31:40] There’s also a body of wisdom. Yes, there are great works. They’re just great works that have stood the test of time. They’re great works that have formed the basis of whole societies. And who are we, you know, as people who are now benefiting from those, those societal norms, the values? Who are we? To deprive the very young people who, again, aren’t organically getting exposed to these ideas.

[00:32:09] That’s what I very much believe is, is represented in a classical education. They’re just works that every kid must be exposed to and, and unfortunately, as you’ve talked about, a lot of the underlying ideologies within the anti-racism substituted this idea of truth and wisdom for power. And that has only hurt kids.

[00:32:32] It’s actually why I’m also excited not only of the classical school movement, but also a relatively new phenomenon, which is the classical learning test, the CLT, please tell our listeners about it. This is also really interesting. Yeah, so the classical learning test, I believe Jeremy Tate is one of the pioneers behind it, but it’s only really taken off over the last five, 10 years, which basically is an assessment that is now on par.

[00:33:06] With the SAT and the A CT, but there’s a big difference in the assumption. The classical learning test makes the assumption that you’ve read some of the greatest works in Western civilization and a few things are happening. So, uh, some of you, the listeners may know that the college board just released.

[00:33:27] That due to what they see as some deficiencies in students coming out of K to 12, they’re actually reducing the length. Of reading passages on the SAT. So what could have been maybe 500 to 750 words now passages will be the length of a social media post. Think about that for a second. Right? So while the SAT and some, you know, accused the a CT of doing the same thing, which is essentially reducing.

[00:34:01] Expectations that are being assessed for. Here comes the classical learning test, which is representing a much higher bar of what it is that we think students should be learning coming out of a K to 12 system. And in fact, the University of Austin and Texas, a new university, I believe is a very innovative, has now said the CLT is actually on par with the SAT and a CT, meaning that.

[00:34:30] If a student scores a certain level of performance on the classical learning test, they would have automatic entry into the University of Austin at Texas because they have such reverence for the knowledge that a student must have had in order to do well on that exam. So I think we’re gonna start seeing, and frankly, even Vertex, we’re considering using the CLT.

[00:34:59] As the basis for how we start to assess our juniors and seniors in high school to have an objective assessment that we can use against a check of ourselves to determine that we are actually delivering a high quality education for our students.

[00:35:17] Steven Wilson: Well, Ian, I think it’s magnificent and shame on the college board for reducing the passage length.

[00:35:24] I mean, there’s just, there’s no other word for it. It’s absolutely shocking. We know that we are in a crisis of attention span of immersing oneself in texts, in reading. In reading for pleasure, simply being alone with one’s mind, without distractions, without the affirmation addiction device that is our phone.

[00:35:50] And so rather than playing into that, the college board could have stood tall and resisted it. If income, they should make passages longer. So. Test the capacity of students to sit with a real text of distinction. So this is entirely the wrong direction. It’s in keeping with Massachusetts, going from having the highest standards of the 50 states to now, I don’t know if you know this Ian, but it’s high school graduation requirements are now.

[00:36:23] Perhaps the lowest of the 50 states. Oh, and all this is done in the name of quote, equity reducing grade standards, reducing academic standards, shortening passages. Of course, the end result of this is just great harm to kids.

[00:36:42] Ian Rowe: Yeah. The thing that’s so horrible about this is that the folks who make decisions such as these kids are having difficulty, let’s reduce the passage length, or let’s change the high school requirements so we can have more kids of color passing.

[00:37:01] The people making these kinds of decisions believe they’re being compassionate.

[00:37:06] Steven Wilson: The great hypocrisy, which we must name, of course, is that these people who are promulgating these ideas and lowering standards and think that they’re doing the right thing are themselves highly educated people who benefited from a demanding education.

[00:37:24] Yet they seem intent on denying the very blessing that they had. That allowed them to get to the life of privilege that they have. They seem intent on denying it to thousands, if not millions of of students. It’s really quite extraordinary.

[00:37:39] Ian Rowe: It’s quite extraordinary. And they say all these things, you know, from a perceived moral high ground.

[00:37:46] Steven Wilson: Yes. I’ll give an example of the effects of this. My partner teaches at a CUNY college and a graduate of the New York City schools came and said, I should not have been allowed to graduate from high school. I never was asked to do any work. Mm. This is 13 years of formal education, and that is why in our community colleges it is an absolute crisis because students are not able to write a single coherent paragraph after that 13 years of formal education.

[00:38:23] Ian Rowe: Wow. I used to have a teacher in a network I used to lead, where after we had gotten some results back that were, were pretty bad for a, a certain set of kids, her response was quote, well look at where they’re from. Yeah, I will always remember that moment. I will always

[00:38:45] Steven Wilson: remember, yeah, that is something to remember.

[00:38:48] And it reminds me of the core principle of no excuses education that we have to come back to. Right? Which is, yeah, that terrible name. No excuses. ’cause people think it means. Giving excuses to teachers to weigh on kids. It doesn’t mean anything of the kind. It’s a commitment of the professional community, of the teachers, of the custodians, of the principal, of the deans of instruction, that they will abstain from making excuses, blaming the population as in your instance, blaming racism, claiming they don’t have enough money in the building.

[00:39:22] Instead, it said. Within these four walls, we have what we need to succeed academically with every child. That is an ennobling idea, and sadly we’ve gotten away from that because in social justice education we say quite reverse. We say that vanquishing racism is a precondition, right? Remedying inequality.

[00:39:44] And of course. Racism will not be vanquished. Unfortunately, it’s certainly not in any short term timeframe, not within the educational lives of our students, not within their one chance to be in third grade. Now. That’s why the word urgency is so important, which is also out of favor.

[00:40:02] Ian Rowe: Maybe and, and unbelievably we’re, we’re at time.

[00:40:06] But one thing I guess for us both to think about is that we always seem to be at an impasse when there are those people who, who say the things that you just said, we have to solve racism first, or we have to solve poverty first. It has to be possible for us to thread the needle and say, look, I’m black.

[00:40:24] I have faced bouts of racism in my past. And, and you know, so we can acknowledge that there are a whole host of realities for kids of every background. Right, right. That are going to be challenges. I mean, every kid, white, black, green, whatever. But we have to be able to have a conversation. Okay, I get it.

[00:40:45] Yes. There’s structural X, there’s institutional, you know, forces. Okay, but are you saying that those are debilitating? That kids don’t have agency and the ability to overcome. That’s the conversation. Maybe that’s, we should say that for our next,

[00:41:03] Steven Wilson: that is the key conversation. Absolutely. And you already know the answer because there are thousands of schools all around us that are succeeding despite these egregious.

[00:41:15] Defects of our society. They’re succeeding at educating students to a very high standard.

[00:41:22] Ian Rowe: And that is the high note that we are gonna end on. Steven, thank you for phenomenal conversation and thank you for listening to another this special episode of the Pioneer Institute’s Learning Curve podcast.

[00:41:36] Please take note that our next show. We will have Jack Rakove, Pulitzer Prize winning Co-Pro Professor of History and American Studies, a professor of Political Science emeritus at Stanford University. He’s also the author of Revolutionaries, A New History of The Invention of America. So Steven, thank you for a phenomenal conversation.

[00:42:03] Steven Wilson: My pleasure and thank you so much.