Harvard Law’s Amb. Mary Ann Glendon on In the Courts of Three Popes

The Learning Curve Mary Ann Glendon

[00:00:00] Albert Cheng: Well, hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Learning Curve podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts this week, Albert Cheng from the University of Arkansas, and joining me this week is Mary Connaughton. Hey Mary. Good to have you on the show. Hey, Albert. It’s great to be here. Well, I, I know you’ve been on the show before, but, uh, in case someone listening doesn’t know who you are, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself?

[00:00:46] Mary Connaughton: Sure. I am the Chief Operating Officer of Pioneer Institute.

[00:00:51] Albert Cheng: Alright, well she is basically making sure the Pioneer Institute runs. So now, now you all know the name, but hey, it’s, it’s a pleasure to have you on the show. We’ve got a, a great one and you know, just to prepare us for it. I think the beginning, if you were listening and wondering what that music was.

[00:01:08] That’s Totus Tuus by Henryk Górecki, a Polish composer, and that motto, Totos Tuus means all yours. And as I understand, I think this is Pope John Paul’s ii. One of his personal mottos. I don’t know if you knew that, Mary. I mean, I, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s part of it. So, but anyway, speaking of Pope John Paul ii, we’re gonna have Ambassador Mary Ann Glendon, who’s gonna talk to us about some of her work, which includes the Court of three Popes.

[00:01:38] I mean, she was also, I’m calling her ambassador because she was the former US Ambassador to the Holy See. So I’m looking forward to that show. I dunno about you, Mary. Yeah, it should be a great show. Looking forward to hearing her. Before we get to it, of course we wanna talk a little bit about education news.

[00:01:53] And I’ve got two updates that I think everyone should know about. Maybe if you’re listening, you already know about these updates ’cause they’re pretty big items. But just to make sure you’re not left out in the cold or if you were unaware ’cause you were busy for whatever reason. The first thing I, that you ought to know if you don’t know already is there is a private school choice program in Texas now.

[00:02:15] Um. This is a big deal. A $1 billion bill was signed by Governor Abbott. I know we’ve been following this development on the show for quite some time over multiple election cycles, but wow. It’s finally here. And then just a brief update. The Supreme Court last week heard arguments on the religious charter school case, so just up north from our, our friends in Texas, Oklahoma, St.

[00:02:45] Isador of Seville Catholic Virtual School. That’s certainly made the press quite a bit with the important, I guess, legal issue of whether a state. Can operate a religious charter school. So arguments about that case were heard last week. So anyway, two big issues in education that are ongoing. Mary I I, I don’t know if you have thoughts about this.

[00:03:09] I mean, I know this certainly has. I mean, speaking about our topic ramifications for not just private schools generally, but Catholic schools as well, which as I understand it, have been dealing with declining enrollments for quite some time.

[00:03:23] Mary Connaughton: Sure. They sure have. And that’s exactly what my story the week is about.

[00:03:27] My story is by the Cardinal Newman Society, and it marks a very sad anniversary. It’s been a full 60 years of declining Catholic school enrollment. Hmm. Since its peak in 1965. And that’s when they had 5.6 million students in Catholic schools. Now in 2025, enrollment is down 70% to 1.7 million students. And as you know Albert, there are many reasons for this.

[00:03:58] Drop Smaller families, schools. Not Catholic enough as they attempted to appeal to a broader range of students. And you know, many even went to Distant Shores to recruit, to improve finances. The economics, the economics are real. Though Catholic school populations grew post pandemic, they returned to declining enrollments last year, actually.

[00:04:23] Mm. Dropping like 0.6% with 24 opening and 63 closing. Wow. The article by the Newman Society focuses more on mitigating losses by improving the teaching, by hearing it more towards faithful Catholic families. You know, there’s a strong argument for that, but so much does come down to dollars and cents.

[00:04:45] Albert Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. Well actually didn’t know that statistic about the now decline post pandemic. I guess I, I imagine that, I knew it had ticked up, but seems like if that continues, it’s gonna. Go back to the way it was.

[00:04:57] Mary Connaughton: Right. You know that on a personal note. Yeah. My two boys were in Catholic high school, Uhhuh, and they loved the school.

[00:05:02] They really loved it. They had strong bonds with like other students and the faculties, you know, it was a school committed to high academic performance and committed to the Catholic faith. Yeah, yeah. But the school closed. It closed while they were there and Oh, interesting. If anyone has ever been through.

[00:05:20] School closing it. It’s absolutely devastating for everyone involved, students, faculty, parents, and actually the community as well. Well, my boys were lucky. They found another Catholic high school to finish up in, but shortly after they graduated, that school closed as well. Mm. Boston. There is good news in all of this, and that is school choice programs, as you know, are expanding in so many other states across the country with programs like tax credit, scholarships, hopefully the 60 year decline will level off.

[00:05:54] Yep. And kids will get more opportunity to go to the Catholic schools, but it all comes down to the state you live in.

[00:06:00] Albert Cheng: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well certainly those developments in Oklahoma and Texas have some bearing on this. But yeah, thanks for sharing. Just, you know, your experience with your two boys and let’s hope for more quality educational opportunities, you know, whether it’s former Catholic schools or, or other schools that have really, you know, a longstanding proven track record.

[00:06:21] And so let’s see what unfolds over the next couple years. Let’s keep our fingers crossed that more kids will get access to a great education. That’s right. Well, coming up after the break, I remember we have Ambassador Mary Ann Glendon. Looking forward to that conversation with her.

[00:06:50] Ambassador Mary Ann Glendon is the Learned hand professor of law emerita at Harvard University Law School and a former US Ambassador to the Holy See. She served as a member of the Board of Supervisors of the Institute of Religious Works, the Vatican Bank. Glendon is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and served as president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences from 2003 to 2013.

[00:07:15] Her books include In the Court of Three Popes, an American lawyer and diplomat in the last absolute marky of the West, the form and the tower traditions in Turmo. A world made new Eleanor Roosevelt and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a Nation Under Lawyers, how the crisis in the legal profession is transforming American society and rights Talk the impoverishment of political discourse.

[00:07:39] Glendon earned her Bachelors of Arts, Juris Doctor and Master of Comparative Law from the University of Chicago, Ambassador Glendon. Welcome to the show. We’re really glad to have you on.

[00:07:50] Mary Ann Glendon: I’m very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:07:54] Albert Cheng: Let’s let everyone get to know you a little bit. I mean, you’ve had an impressive career law professor, public intellectual, author, diplomat.

[00:08:02] Tell us about a bit of your background. Any formative educational experiences, mentors, perhaps, you know, how did all of that in your past shape your thinking about the law and faith?

[00:08:13] Mary Ann Glendon: I have to start with the fact that my thinking about law and politics was decisively shaped right here in Massachusetts where I grew up in one of those small towns.

[00:08:26] Very much like what Tocqueville wrote about, where one could still see and appreciate. Something that has stayed with me and really much influenced my life, and that is how much our democratic experiment depends on the character and the competence of citizens and officials. You can have the best constitution in the whole world.

[00:08:48] I. As I think we do, but as Madison said in the Federalist, if you don’t have a sufficient supply of civic virtue, you won’t have good government. And so John Paul II kind of summed that up when he taught us that culture is prior to politics. Hmm. As for my formative influence and my faith, I was very lucky to go to the University of Chicago at a time when Aristotle was God, but Aquinas was a close second there.

[00:09:19] I was introduced to our great Catholic intellectual tradition at that time. We all go through that perilous transition from childhood faith to more mature Catholicism. I’m still working on the latter, but it was a great help to me to see how much our tradition was respected in secular circles.

[00:09:40] Albert Cheng: Well, let’s talk about that a bit more.

[00:09:42] I mean, you’ve been a vocal proponent for what you’ve called the great inheritance of Western civilization. You know, that includes biblical religion, Greek philosophy, Roman law, the ideals of the enlightenment. I mean, you’ve mentioned Aristotle and Aquinas, Jerusalem and Athens, right? We could use all sorts of monikers for this.

[00:10:00] Talk about some of your most cherished, I guess, heroes, shall we say, from the Western tradition and how Catholicism harmonizes that.

[00:10:08] Mary Ann Glendon: I think if we just limit it to states persons, because there are so many heroes in that.

[00:10:16] Albert Cheng: Okay. Yeah.

[00:10:17] Mary Ann Glendon: Heroes and heroes in that great tradition. The two that have been really important to me, and I’ll explain one, Cicero and Edmund Bur, because many of the things that they accomplished in their lives were not visible until many years, in some cases, centuries.

[00:10:35] After their death and I, I think what their lives taught me is that we shouldn’t worry too much about seeing the results of our efforts.

[00:10:44] Albert Cheng: Hmm.

[00:10:45] Mary Ann Glendon: For me, that put them very much in the spirit of a little prayer by John Henry Cardinal Newman now saying. Saint just this past year, I guess, a great prayer that begins, I, many of you’ll know, this prayer begins with God has created me to do him some definite service.

[00:11:04] I may not know it in this life, but I shall be told it in the next. The long version of that prayer, I keep it in what I call my spiritual medicine cabinet. Mm-hmm. That’s the drawer of my desk. I also, when I was teaching, I had it on a kind of holy card and I handed it out to Catholic students because I think it’s just, it’s such a wonderful perspective and the lives like Cicero’s Life and Edmunds makes you realize.

[00:11:32] If you just live your life in accordance with the teachings of Christ, you don’t in’s case by the great ethic that he had, you shouldn’t worry too much about what it’s all going to mean.

[00:11:46] Albert Cheng: Well, there’s a lot of wisdom in that, so thank you for sharing that and a lot about your background. So let, let’s get into some of your, your work in particular, your memoir in the court of three popes.

[00:11:56] Let me read a passage from it. You write for 20th centuries, the Catholic Church has radically shaped world history. And in the decades following the second Vatican Council, three popes have carried forward this legacy, striving to lead the church and its governing body, the last absolute marky of the West into the modern world.

[00:12:16] Okay, now that’s quite a, a, a statement and I’m intrigued. Let’s start with a brief overview of the book and what prompted you to write it, and then what were you getting at in that passage?

[00:12:26] Mary Ann Glendon: I finished 25 years of service to the Holy Sea in various capacities in 2018, and it seems to me that it would be useful to set down on paper my reflections about how the Holy Sea.

[00:12:45] Is functioning from the point of view of someone like me who’s interested a student of, of politics and law, how it’s functioning as a political institution. As we know, that’s not the main point, but still what I had, I think a good look at were the Holy Sea, both as a moral witness on the international stage and as the central government of a worldwide church.

[00:13:12] And already in 2018 I, I was looking toward the prospect of a conclave in the not too distant future, and I thought it might be helpful to the cardinal electors as well as interesting for Catholic readers. To point to some of the ways in which both that role on the international stage and the internal government would need attention.

[00:13:36] Albert Cheng: Yeah. Fascinating. And we’re just underway to start the conclave this time around with the passing of Pope Francis. So I guess your, your book is even more timely.

[00:13:45] Mary Ann Glendon: Well, I’m hoping some of those partners will read it or maybe their assistants will.

[00:13:51] Albert Cheng: Yeah, yeah. Well, let’s talk about another Pope, uh, John Paul ii.

[00:13:57] In your book, in the court of three popes, you wrote, what made Pope John Paul II’s writing so refreshing was that he drew on his own experiences. No Pope in living memory ever had so many friendships with Laywomen and men as a pastor, companion and confidant, I’d like to hear more about that. I mean, just the nature of his friendships, his relationships.

[00:14:18] Talk about the young priests, you know, his friendships in Poland. I mean, certainly I, I think many of us are familiar with just the ecumenical healing and relationships that he had with the Jewish people, the way he connected with millions of young folks through World Youth Day. I mean, we could go on and on, but tell us about that part of his life.

[00:14:37] Mary Ann Glendon: As you say, you could go on and on. Yeah, he was, I mean, popes like that don’t come along. We were so privileged to live in the time of John Paul ii and I think what. Ties all the aspects of his ministry together. You mentioned the word friendship. I think he never as old as he was, even in his very frail old age, he never lost his youthful interest and curiosity about people.

[00:15:08] He genuinely liked people. He was outgoing and you know, contrast Benedict was wonderful in his own way, but he was a very shy man, but. John Paul II from his youth onward, maybe because he didn’t have a mom and he sort of, you know, he, he was looking out in the world for all different kinds of people and friendships and even in the period when I knew him before, he got quite so frail, his daily routine, every day practically, he was having lunch and dinner.

[00:15:40] Small groups of people. Around his dinner table in the apostolic palace where he was by no means isolated. He was very sociable. And at those dinners and lunches, he wouldn’t talk much. He would, he liked to throw out questions and hear what people said. It was that curiosity. And then on a more formal basis, he organized seminars with everybody.

[00:16:06] I mean, atheists, other people from all the religions of the world. Because he wanted to hear many different points of view. He never lost that youthful curiosity.

[00:16:18] Albert Cheng: That’s special. I actually, I remember the first and only time I’ve visited the Vatican, I mean, is way back when, when he was still open and I was in high school at the time, and I remember speaking with all my other peers, oh, you know what if we, what if we get to spot him?

[00:16:34] You know? But we didn’t, even though I, I know, uh, certainly would’ve been a treat to do that. Lemme ask you one more question about St. John Paul ii before I turn over to Mary, who will give you a chance to talk about all the other popes, Benedictine and Francis, we say that Pope John Paul II was among one of the greatest figures in the world during our era.

[00:16:54] I’d like to hear from your perspective as the former US Ambassador to the Holy Sea, what are the main elements of his life and leadership that people should most remember?

[00:17:06] Mary Ann Glendon: I think part of his greatness was actually that he struck different people. He left different impressions on people. The world, the whole world will probably remember him most for the role he played in the great.

[00:17:21] Movements that brought down the totalitarian regimes of Eastern Europe. But some people, like the young people you mentioned, they will cherish the way that he called all of us to be the very best that we could be, and his belief that we could be the best. And then others, including myself, his great and cyclicals, they will last for a long time because they spoke to.

[00:17:45] Deepest human concerns about things like human work, social concern, the genius of women, faith and reason. And finally, I just mentioned in that mystery of his greatness, my little grandson who has down syndrome. After he makes his communion in his church where they have a little altar to John Paul ii.

[00:18:07] Nobody knows why, but he goes every Sunday he goes, and he kneels for a few minutes. Looking up at John Paul ii. We don’t know what they’re saying to each other, but part of the amazing mystery of that wonderful pope.

[00:18:22] Mary Connaughton: That’s wonderful. What a nice story to share with us. Thank you so much for that Ambassador.

[00:18:27] I just wanna say I’m thrilled, so thrilled and honored that you are on this show now. A few questions that I would like to ask you. You served as President George w Bush’s US ambassadors, the Holy See, during the papacy of Pope. Benedict the 16th. Can you talk a bit about the nomination process and the confirmation process, as well as your very, very unique diplomatic role within a sacred institution while serving a secular government?

[00:18:57] One that Pope Benedict described as quote, a nation that values the role of religious belief in ensuring a vibrant and ethically sound democratic order.

[00:19:09] Mary Ann Glendon: Well, you asked about my confirmation process. It almost didn’t happen because it was held up for many months by the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

[00:19:21] Nothing personal against me, I guess, but he was holding up most of the other Bush nominees for various positions. That was Senator Joseph Biden at the time. But I’m a Massachusetts resident and a great pro-life friend of mine, Eunice Kennedy, brought me to talk to her brother, and within days after telling Ted Kennedy about my concerns, I.

[00:19:47] I was unanimously concerned by the Senate. Now those of you from Massachusetts will know that’s probably the old Massachusetts way that we get things done, but I was very grateful to Eunice and her brother for that. You asked about my term. I was just fortunate that prior to my term, there had been a lot of tension between the US and the Holy Sea over the invasion of Iraq, which John Hall II opposed.

[00:20:17] But by the time I got over there, that had been subordinated to concern about the necessity for American troops to stay there. To protect minorities. So that period of stress was over and very much changed, which left me very free to take advantage of a special moment where, in a way, sort of mysterious, like John Paul II charisma, sort of mysteriously there was a close personal friendship between the outgoing George Bush or I, I mean outgoing in the sense of personality and the rather introverted benedict, yet they clearly enjoyed each other’s company and they had three meetings in the year that I was there. That’s really unprecedented. And of course I was, that was a good part of my job, was to organize and be present at those meetings.

[00:21:14] And then it was also an occasion since relations were so good to build my relations and the, and improve the United States relations by emphasizing the many things that the US and the Holy See. Had a shared interest in such as, um, we are after all the world’s largest donor of humanitarian aid, a particular interest of President Bush and the Holy See oversees the world’s largest network of aid dispensing organizations. So it. Provided the occasion and for conferences on religious freedom, philanthropy and humanitarian aid, human trafficking, it was a very good period to be there.

[00:21:59] Mary Connaughton: Wow. And so fortunate to be able to sit into three meetings between the two. That’s absolutely amazing. Ambassador, you’ve written quote, the first thing to understand about the Vatican. An Italian friend of mine once said to me is that it is a court. Can you talk a bit about the key aspects of court life in the Vatican as well as the strengths and weaknesses in its governance? Councils, secretariats commissions, and many other offices.

[00:22:30] Mary Ann Glendon: Yes. That was one of the points that was important to me when I wrote the book.

[00:22:36] It’s so important to understand that the internal administration of the absolute monarchy that is the Holy See, is not like any other public or private bureaucracy that we know. It is unique. It’s a blend of remnants from the medieval past with elements of the surrounding culture where most of it’s.

[00:23:00] Employees come from, and I wanna talk about the weaknesses of that system because that will be very much before the Cardinals in this coming enclave. And they are simply that the various separate departments of the Holy Sea have tended to become. Like little fiefdoms, little autocracies. And there are a few measures in place to assure accountability.

[00:23:27] And that has led to the very public scandals and problems that seem to have attended the Holy See for many years now. And I also, I would add to the weaknesses, a very relaxed attitude toward rules and regulations.

[00:23:42] Mary Connaughton: Hmm. That does not generally lead to good outcomes. So to follow on that, in June of 2013, Pope Francis named you as a member of the Pontifical Commission of Inquiry for the Institute for Works of Religion, also known as the Vatican Bank.

[00:24:03] Now you served with two cardinals, a bishop, a Monsignor, and were responsible for preparing an investigative report on the Vatican Bank. Later served on its board. Can you talk a bit about that report and the work you did on the Vatican Bank as an institution?

[00:24:23] Mary Ann Glendon: I would really like to do that because I think we are at a moment now where something can be done about that.

[00:24:32] I wanna begin by saying that Pope Francis, to his credit, really tackled that problem head on, and as soon as he did, he came. Face-to-face with the power of the bureaucracy, the internal culture that I’ve been talking about. There is some good news that is, I think the Vatican Bank is in better shape than it was previous to the new board that was appointed.

[00:24:58] But after four years of working on the financial reform process, I have come to believe, and I really changed my mind about this from my, the beginning of my service. I’ve come to believe that many or most of the Holy See’s financial operations should and can be outsourced to reputable outside financial institutions.

[00:25:19] It pains me to say this because I’m a lay person myself, but just as most. Priests, most churchmen are not trained in financial matters. They have not done a good job of choosing and supervising lay experts. Again, I hate to say it, but lay experts have often been the foxes and the chicken coach.

[00:25:39] Mary Connaughton: Uh, yeah. I was an accounting teacher for a long time, and one thing that I always taught my students is that a system of internal control that relies on trust is not a system of internal control.

[00:25:52] If that makes sense. Thank you for saying it. Yes. Yes, exactly. Okay. Now your book in the courts of three popes examines, quote, the issues vexing the church today. The place of faith in secular politics relating the church to other religions, clericalism, and the power of laypeople and corruption at the Vatican Bank.

[00:26:16] Within the Roman Curia, can you discuss some of these topics and share them with us?

[00:26:23] Mary Ann Glendon: I’ll say a few more words about the one that I really know best. Namely Vatican Finances, the latest reports, and I mean, just this year show that the Holy Sea is in serious financial difficulty with a huge deficit and no realistic plan for remedying it for going forward in this past November, just a few months ago.

[00:26:48] Pope Francis dropped a real bombshell when he announced that the pension system was quote, not in a position to guarantee the fulfillments of its obligations for the medium term. Now, medium term means probably not more than 10 years, which means. That’s, it’s a real emergency. Imagine how the Vatican employees, you know, they have 5,000 employees there.

[00:27:13] Imagine how they felt when they heard that news, so you don’t hear too much in the run up to the conclave. But I’ll make one prediction about the conclave, and that is that whether it’s public or not, financial questions were wound very large in the deliberations of the Cardinals.

[00:27:32] Mary Connaughton: Wow, that’s a big issue.

[00:27:34] Certainly pension’s. Huge issue. Now finally, I have another huge question for you, ambassador. With the recent death and funeral of Pope Francis and the Conclave beginning, could you talk about the centuries old process by which Popes are chosen and the internal dynamics and criteria that Cardinals would likely use in choosing a new Pope?

[00:27:59] And what are the most important issues the next Pope and the Vatican would likely be facing in coming decades, and that might include the pensions, but I’m sure there are other issues as well.

[00:28:14] Mary Ann Glendon: Well, as everybody knows the actual internal dynamics and criteria, we can speculate about them all we want, but we will never know very much about what is going to happen and looking back on what actually did happen, but.

[00:28:32] Besides what I said about finances, I will make one more prediction, which is that it’s based on the fact that the majority of the cardinal electors are now from what Pope Francis used to call the peripheries from the global south. And I am guessing that they will be looking for someone who will, like Francis, have a heart for the poorest and most vulnerable.

[00:28:58] I think that’s a pretty safe prediction, but I think they. We’ll also be looking for a Pope who will teach with clarity and consistency on matters of faith and morals, and I also think that they are. Most of them aware of the weaknesses, the lack of accountability that I’ve been talking about, and they will want somebody who will attend to the internal dysfunction that so often has kept the holy seed back from being all that it can be as a transformative presence in the world.

[00:29:35] Mary Connaughton: Well, no. Thank you so much for that and great insights and you know, it’s been such a pleasure learning from you and I just admire the enthusiasm you have for your subject and the obvious raw devy in your voice. So thank you so much. Now can you end this by reading a passage in your latest book In the Court of Three Popes?

[00:30:02] Mary Ann Glendon: Thank you very much for your kind remarks. I will read from the concluding chapter where I come back to the question of culture. Culture being prior to everything else in connection with the brand new constitution for the curia of the Holy See that went into effect in 2022. So here’s what I said. It will take more than a new set of rules to change a deep seated culture, whether this new Constitution, the product of nine years of work commissioned by Bob Francis, whether it will alleviate the dysfunctional aspects of the curia.

[00:30:43] Whether it will advance the hour of the laity and whether it will improve the circumstances of the Vatican’s employees will depend on the character and competence of those who will be charged with its implementation. At the last reform of the Roman Curia back in 1967, pop Paul, the six remarked, it does no good to change faces if we don’t change hearts.

[00:31:09] Mary Connaughton: That’s wonderful passage. Thank you so much and it’s been a real pleasure.

[00:31:14] Mary Ann Glendon: Thank you. And thank you for those really great questions.

[00:31:32] Albert Cheng: That’s a fascinating interview, Mary. I mean, I don’t know about you. I, I really enjoyed a peek into, to Maryanne’s work and her scholarship.

[00:31:41] Mary Connaughton: I know she’s really a terrific person and a wonderful guest for the program. I learned so much during this. I’m just thrilled with all that she had to say.

[00:31:50] Albert Cheng: If you’re listening, I hope you share that sentiment and that’s gonna bring us to the end of our show this week.

[00:31:56] Before closing out though, let me give the tweet of the week, which is from Margaret Rosa, who we had on, eh, it’s been a few months now talking about Eser funds and speaking of eser funds and federal funds, her tweet reads rapidly changing financial risks for K 12, which fed funds are legitimately at risk, which aren’t.

[00:32:16] Which states and districts have the most to lose? What other factors are worth watching? And so I think she covered all that in a webinar last week, but go check out the work that she produces out of her lab to get the latest updates. On that. Next week we’re gonna have Rick. Atkinson, he is the number one New York Times bestseller and Pulitzer Prize winner in history in journalism.

[00:32:42] We’re gonna continue, you know, our string of episodes, celebrating the 250th anniversary of lots of different things related to the founding of our country. And so Atkinson is the author of The Fate of the Day, the War for America for Teon Dega to. Charleston. Hope to see you then for that episode. Mary, thanks for co-hosting with me.

[00:33:05] It was a pleasure to have you on.

[00:33:07] Mary Connaughton: Thank you so much. It was wonderful to join you, and I look forward to doing it again sometime.

[00:33:11] Albert Cheng: Hopefully sooner than later. And until then, you be well and listeners as well. Uh, hope you have a great day. Hey, it’s Albert Cheng here and I just wanna thank you for listening to the Learning Curve podcast.

[00:33:24] If you’d like to support the podcast further, we’d invite you to donate to the Pioneer Institute at pioneerinstitute.org/donations.