Ben Moynihan & Bill Crombie on Algebra Project, Bob Moses, & Civil Rights

The Learning Curve Benjamin Moynihan And William Crombie

[00:00:00] Alisha Searcy: Welcome back to the Learning Curve podcast. I’m your co-host, Alisha Thomas Searcy, and glad to be joined by my other co-host, Dr. Albert Cheng. Hello, Albert. Hello, Alisha. What’s going on? I am enjoying this summer, I think it’s officially summer, right?

[00:00:16] Albert Cheng: Yeah, yeah. Past Memorial Day. That’s the official start of summer, I think.

[00:00:20] Alisha Searcy: That’s right. Got a high school graduate preparing all of that. Oh, that’s right. That’s right.

[00:00:25] Albert Cheng: Yeah. I guess you, you’ve had quite the past couple of weeks then. Yes, with all the celebration.

[00:00:30] Alisha Searcy: Yes, it’s been fun and great to be with family and I think it’s extra special when you can be with family when it’s warm outside, so, yep, yep.

[00:00:39] True that I have enjoyed that. I’m looking forward to some summer vacations and trips and you know, lots of good things, so I hope you’ve got some good things planned as well. Yep, definitely do. Definitely do. Excellent. Well, we have a very cool show today. We have not one, but two guests that are joining us, so very excited about that.

[00:00:59] But before we get to that, of course we’ve got to jump into some news articles for the week. Would you like to go first on yours?

[00:01:07] Albert Cheng: Sure. Yeah. And you know, I don’t know if Mine’s news, if you wanna call it news, but you know, in case folks listening weren’t aware, it is the hundredth anniversary of a landmark Supreme Court decision.

[00:01:19] Peers versus Society of Sisters. So it’s been a hundred years already, and in case those of you listening aren’t familiar, this was a case that essentially guarantees all of us a right to school choice, kind of in, in some sense. I, I’m putting it really lightly, you know, I know there’s a lot more nuance in, in these decisions, but there was a case brought about a hundred years ago in Oregon to challenge a law in Oregon that was gonna close down every private school and compel every student to go to the system of common schools that they have there.

[00:01:47] And so it’s been a hundred years and I know we’ve got all sorts of important Supreme Court decisions related to education and school choice in particular. But I just wanna flag this. Paul Peterson has a wonderful piece at Education Next, just offering lots of reflection and commentary about the legacy of this case and its bearing on us today.

[00:02:08] So, you know, I think it’s a good opportunity today to remember a hundred years since the decision Pierce versus Society of Sisters.

[00:02:15] Alisha Searcy: Very good, very important. And you’re right, there have been some very important things happening at the court level in terms of education. So it just kind of helps you remember sometimes the history repeats itself.

[00:02:27] Yeah. Helps you to remember that some of these things are cyclical, even if it’s not exactly. In our lifetime. Yep. And so I think that’s a really good reminder. Yeah. And we’re grateful that we have courts and we are even more grateful that we’ve got, or just as grateful that we’ve got access to school options, right?

[00:02:46] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So those are. Those are very good things.

[00:02:48] Albert Cheng: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s fascinating. Read to just kinda reflect the way history plays out didn’t have to be the way it did. And you know, I, I guess I’m, I’m grateful for the ways that it has played out. Yes, of course not. You know, it’s not all perfect yet, but that’s part of our job. Exactly. Um, to make the world better than we found it, I guess.

[00:03:05] Alisha Searcy: Yes, you, it’s interesting you talk about school choices and this is your article and the fact that we still have work to do. I wanted to talk about an article that I saw about the Philadelphia Board of Education approving its first charter school since 2018.

[00:03:24] 2018. So seven years, huh? Yes. Which is not uncommon. I live in Georgia for those that have heard me say that a thousand times, and we’ve been working on some legislation that just passed this year to address the fact that it was eight years before charter school had been authorized by a local school district.

[00:03:47] They were authorized at the state level, which happens to be a law that I helped to create. But at the local school district level, they were not being authorized. And yesterday we had our very first in the state and the metro, Atlanta County, Clayton County authorized its first charter school since probably 2018.

[00:04:04] So that’s a, a good thing, not what this article is about, by the way, but to your point about having choice and the challenges that still exist, this article was really interesting because while charter supporters, of course, are excited about getting a new charter in the school district of Philadelphia, it’s a early college charter school, which is great.

[00:04:26] And there is an early college school that already exists within the system, but it’s selective.

[00:04:33] Albert Cheng: Hmm.

[00:04:35] Alisha Searcy: This would be a charter school that would be open to all students and they are specifically targeting the most high needs area of the district. Mm-hmm. And so one would think that those are good things, right?

[00:04:46] That you’re opening a school, it’s early access to college. It’s all the things that you would want to see in our school system. But the problem is, first of all, they submitted this charter application in February and it was voted down and the school went back and made some edits. And there were a lot of folks galvanized on both sides of the aisle.

[00:05:06] Mm-hmm. And they came back and it was authorized. And so I want to say this though, as a former superintendent, and although I ran a network of charter schools as a superintendent, the job is still the same in terms of running a system and having to navigate state funding and state policies and federal law and all of the things.

[00:05:28] And so one of the issues that’s brought up in this article is that there are some serious financial issues that the district is having. Like many districts are, I think our friend Marguerite Rosa Prognosticate this a few years ago, this happen. And so, you know, it’s due to enrollment issues, it’s due to, you know, lower performance in some of the schools, a number of things.

[00:05:51] And so the age old question that I found as I was reading this article is, how do we make decisions? Is it based on what’s in the best interest of children or what’s in the best interest of a system? I think as a school board member, certainly it is the job of those individuals to protect the school system, right?

[00:06:12] That they are responsible for in terms of funding, in terms of kids who are, you know, going to their schools, all of that. At the same time, I think they also have a responsibility to make sure that kids have access to a high quality education. And if it’s not one of their traditional schools, then parents ought to have options.

[00:06:30] And so anyway, this article kind of points out the rub between those two schools of thought. You know, you have board members who wanna protect the system and as they should have some, you know, responsibility there. And then you have parents who want options and school leaders who have vision and wanna do school differently.

[00:06:48] And so I’m just. Happy that this school was authorized. I hope that they’ll be able to work well together. Because I think where you have locally authorized school districts in a school system where you can work together, you can share resources, you can make sure all the kids have what they need, kids will win.

[00:07:06] Yeah. Teachers will win. The system ultimately will win. And they also have the resources that they need to ensure that kids who are not going to this school, which would be the vast majority, also have access to what they need. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that’s the article for me. It was in Chalkbeat Philadelphia, but it’s a, an interesting story.

[00:07:24] Kudos to the school board. Sounds like it was quite a vigorous debate, but in this case, I think parents and kids win and we meet those wins these days.

[00:07:33] Albert Cheng: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and here’s the hope in that interest between the system and parents align. Right? I mean, the interests of the system should be, you know, the families that they serve.

[00:07:42] Yes. And I get it, you know, there’s certain fiduciary responsibilities, but there’s something to be said for losing, losing your way if. The people you’re designed to serve. You know the families that are there in your area got the short end of stick. Exactly. So anyway, I know it’s complicated and we don’t have time to to entangle all of that, but I know how tricky it is.

[00:08:02] Alisha Searcy: Yeah, but you raise a good point. And so that’s why we have these discussions and we read these articles and as you said before, we all do the work that we do. We’ve gotta untangle it and make sure we’re doing what’s best for kids and families. Yeah. So thank you for that. Up next we are gonna hear from Ben Moynihan, who’s the executive director, and Bill Crombie, who’s a director of professional development at the Algebra project.

[00:08:28] So stay tuned.

[00:08:42]

[00:08:42] Alisha Searcy: Benjamin Moynihan is executive director of the Algebra Project, Inc. He worked closely with Algebra project founder and late president Bob Moses for 29 years, fostering collaborations among mathematicians, math educators and researchers, and gathering input from students, teachers, school districts, parents and community organizations.

[00:09:03] From 1992 to 2000, Ben also was co-developer of the Algebra projects, African Drums and Ratios, curriculum materials for late elementary grades. His work in diverse context builds on a Bachelor of Arts and non-Western music at Dartmouth College and EDM in educational technology from Harvard Graduate School of Education Training and Group Facilitation under the Hay Group Boston, and experiences in West Africa and the US.

[00:09:33] William Crombie is the director of professional Development for the Algebra project. Since 1990, he’s been involved in designing and delivering professional learning for teachers and professional development specialists within Algebra project’s National Network. Bill has worked on algebra project curriculum units, including the Train the Trainers, transition Curriculum Practice, and is the principal author of the Polynomial Calculus curriculum.

[00:09:59] From 1994 to 1998, he was the director of the Chicago Algebra project. Crombie is the also the principal investigator of a three year National Science Foundation funded researcher, practitioner collaboration, the accessible calculus project, advancing equity by democratizing access to advanced mathematics.

[00:10:20] Bill holds a BA with a major in physics and mathematics from Rutgers University and an MS in physics from Brown University. Welcome to the show guys. Ben, I’d like to start with you. You both knew and worked with the late civil rights figure and founder of the Algebra Project, Robert Paris. Moses, can you give us an overview of Bob’s historic significance as a 1960s grassroots activist and student organizer in Mississippi, as well as his mission and work leading the Algebra project?

[00:10:54] Benjamin Moynihan: Sounds like a tall order. Alisha, thank you for that question. Obviously, there’s wonderful biographies. Bob’s written a book with Charlie Cobb, radically Equations. There’s numerous history books, which I know you, you guys will mention and perhaps we can cite in links here. There’s the Eyes in the Prize series.

[00:11:14] There’s there’s a number of resources that listeners might be interested in exploring to really get a broader picture on understanding of how Bob is situated in the Mississippi movement and how he brought the lessons learned from that movement into the work that he did founding and leading the Algebra project over three decades.

[00:11:34] For me, I think one of the central things that Bob represents is really embracing. Intergenerational organizing this grassroots organizing tradition within the civil rights movement. And he used to talk to us about that organizing mode in contrast to what he referred to as kind of the mobilization, the big marches, the big speeches, et cetera.

[00:12:03] The grassroots organizing, perhaps best represented by Mrs. LJ Baker, this idea that leadership can be found everywhere, it can be found among the local people. So the organizer’s job is really to create the context in which the people with the problem. So in Mississippi that was the sharecroppers the day laborers, the domestic workers who, even though the US Constitution provided them with the right to vote, they were not able to access it at that time.

[00:12:40] So how can the organizers work, the voter education programs, et cetera, create a context in which these local people are willing to step up and claim their right to vote. So similarly, he brought that sensibility into the work with the algebra project in creating math learning environments where students and teachers were collaborative agents in creating mathematical understanding.

[00:13:10] Alisha Searcy: Very helpful. Thank you. Bob was born and raised in Harlem, and in 1956, graduated from Hamilton College and then earned a master’s degree in philosophy at Harvard. Tell us more about his early life, his family, how his access to high quality liberal arts shaped his civil rights activism and later his career in K 12 public education reform.

[00:13:33] Benjamin Moynihan: So again, I would refer. Readers in this case for a real exploration of Bob’s early life to Dr. Laura Visen excellent biography. Robert Paris. Moses, a Life and Civil Rights and Leadership at the Grassroots. This is a biography that Bob collaborated on that he really appreciated. As far as I understand. He collaborated with her, for example, on various book events after it came out.

[00:14:02] That’s on UNC press, and I would really refer to people to that book to get a full understanding. Bob used to share from time to time anecdotes from his childhood. Not often, but sometimes. And one of the things that he mentioned was that as a young person, he would travel around Harlem with his dad meeting people and they, they would talk about before they met somebody, okay, want you to listen to really observe.

[00:14:34] And attend to what people are saying and try to get to know them, what their interests are and so forth. Mm-hmm. And I believe that Bob brought that disposition into how he collaborated in organizing with local people in Mississippi, together with his colleagues in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and the Council of the Federated Organizations.

[00:14:56] And certainly in his work with the Algebra project, he had a passion for education. As you guys know, he was actually a teacher of mathematics at Horace Mann School before he went south to Mississippi. And we even have heard anecdotes of Bob teaching math in when folks were, were jailed for working on voting rights.

[00:15:21] Albert Cheng: Wow.

[00:15:22] Benjamin Moynihan: So, yes. So he, throughout his life, was passionate about. Education. He was passionate about mathematics, about philosophy of mathematics and about social justice concerns where, where it had bearing on how do we ensure that the constitution, the rights and guarantees of liberty and the pursuit of happiness are available to everybody.

[00:15:48] And what are the literacies that are required for full participation in society? And Bob used to tell us that even with the right to vote, they understood that the subtext of the struggle for the right to vote. Was the issue of literacy, or in this case, in literacy. Because at that time, literacy was used as a filtering mechanism.

[00:16:16] So the same thing today, as we think about the 21st century and what young people need to be successful in college and career, what are the literacies? And I think Bob’s really contribution was to say, okay, well in addition to reading and writing literacy, all young people need math literacy to be able to access the STEM educational programs and careers that are out here that can actually help support families and communities.

[00:16:48] Alisha Searcy: Wow, and I’m looking forward to hearing more about the math work. I wanna focus for a second on some of Bob’s civil rights work following civil rights icon, Ella Baker. Bob became field Secretary for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, also known as SNC. He then began working in Mississippi, becoming director of SNCC C’S Mississippi Project in 1961, establishing a grassroots network to register black voters in the Delta.

[00:17:19] Can you talk to us about Bob’s historic work with SNC and the dramatic events leading up to Freedom summer of 1964?

[00:17:29] Benjamin Moynihan: Thanks again, Alisha, for that question. I think it’s important to take a step back and to understand how strongly the student sit-in movement impacted Bob. He writes about it in his book, radical Equations, that the sit-in movement really, as he put it, woke him up because he saw young people his age engaging nonviolently around an issue that he himself had experienced but hadn’t yet been able to really vocalize and gain a sense of agency around.

[00:18:08] So that inspired him to travel to Virginia. Uh, he had an uncle, bill Moses, who’s an architect, and he stayed with him, and then he visited some of the activity that was happening around the sit-in movement in Virginia. He met Wyatt t Walker, and then that summer of 1960, he also met. Ella Baker, he provided him with a letter of introduction and he took a bus south through the black belt.

[00:18:39] And that was the trip where he met Amey Moore, a World War II veteran and NAACP organizer in the Mississippi Delta. And it was actually Amey Moore who said, you know, in Mississippi the most important things that we could do would be to focus on the right to vote. And so I think, as we were saying before, Bob really attending to and respecting this idea of an intergenerational collaborative organizing mode.

[00:19:11] Taking some leads from the local people. And once that primary focus was sort of settled, he went back to teach the, finish his teaching contract at Homann School for a year. And in the summer of 61 went south and. Really, again, he just started little by little following the lead of the established NAACP network and building out from there, attracting young people.

[00:19:41] There were high school students, there were college students from Mississippi and for other parts of the South said join the student non-violent coordinating committee and worked with him and that really was his way of replicating and embodying the guidance that Ella Baker had given him around creating spaces where he could then cultivate leadership among the young organizers that worked with the local people in Mississippi.

[00:20:12] There’s a lot that happened, obviously, and, and there are during that period between 1961 and. 19 64, 19 65. And what we can say is that Bob certainly was a pivotal architect of Freedom Summer, which you mentioned in the summer of 1964. They organized a group of about 700 college volunteers who came down to work with mostly black organizers, already working with SNC and the local people in Mississippi.

[00:20:50] And that set the stage for the events at the Democratic National Convention in August of 1964, where the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party challenged the Mississippi regulars to really say, could we have representation that was truly representative of the entire state of Mississippi? And again, that those events are documented in various books and in eyes in the Prize.

[00:21:22] There’s even a movie, a documentary, all In Freedom Summer that’s available by Firelight Media. Let me pause there and see if you have any other questions about that.

[00:21:32] Alisha Searcy: Yeah, it’s super helpful and very good insight. I am curious if you can still talking about Freedom Summer and many of the things that were confronted, arguably some of the most violent and repressive elements of Jim Crow South.

[00:21:47] Can you talk about some of the internal and external politics of the Civil Rights movement? Right. Because as you mentioned, he’s working on the ground with a lot of the local people. He’s with SNC, but he is also working with CORE and NAACP and SCLC. Can you share some of the sort of the politics that he had to navigate within the Civil Rights Movement, doing that work during that period?

[00:22:12] Benjamin Moynihan: One way to get a handle on interpreting those events is to explore this idea that Bob had of earning your insurgency. The idea that an organizer has to earn the respect of the local people, so those organizers from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, from the Council of Federated Organizations, or cofo, which was also comprised of CORE and SCLC and the naacp.

[00:22:48] They had to earn the respect of the sharecroppers, the day laborers and the domestic workers in Mississippi so that if they got knocked down, they had to. Be willing to then stand up and local people would watch them do this, and if it happened enough time, they would say, okay, well these people are serious and we’re willing to collaborate with them.

[00:23:10] They also had to earn the respect of the US Justice Department, specifically the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, because the crawlspace, as Bob put it for all of this voting rights activity in Mississippi at the time, was the 1957 Civil Rights Act of the US Federal Government, which protected people’s right to register, to vote and to vote.

[00:23:38] So they had to stay focused in Mississippi solely on the right to vote. So while in other parts of the south, you saw movements about public accommodations and things like that, or riding buses in Mississippi. They had to get a consensus among all the civil rights organizations that they were only gonna be focused on the right to vote.

[00:24:06] Because if they could get that consensus on that focus around voting rights, well then if the state of Mississippi locked them up, then the Civil Rights Division could help them get outta jail. So that required a high level of disciplines, definitely, uh, collaboration and consensus. And I think that was part of Bob’s brilliance, if you will, that he could facilitate enough stakeholders from enough different groups that that kind of agreement and consensus could actually hold, at least for a time.

[00:24:49] Alisha Searcy: That is pretty significant, a really critical piece of history to know and understand, to your point, that he had the brilliance to be able to negotiate that and just help people to understand why Mississippi focused on voting rights, whereas other states were working on their issues. So thank you for shedding light on that.

[00:25:08] I have one more question before I turn it over to Dr. Cheng. I wanna talk about Fannie Lou Hamer. You mentioned her a few minutes ago, and of course she’s a legend and we know one of the many things that she’s done. One of the most famous things that she said is she’s sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[00:25:25] We know that quote from the DNC convention, and so Bob Moses said, I quote, she had Mississippi in her bones, MLK or the SNC field secretaries. They couldn’t do what Fannie Lou Hamer did. He told that to PBS several years ago. He said they couldn’t be a sharecropper and express what it meant. So can you talk about Bob’s pivotal work with Fannie Lou Hamer and helping organize the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party in 1964?

[00:25:55] Benjamin Moynihan: That’s a great question, Alisha, and it really helps us further explore this organizing mode that Ella Baker brought to Bob and the young organizers in Mississippi during that time. So the fact that the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee was doing voter education workshops that created a space that attracted sharecroppers like Mrs.

[00:26:22] Fannie Lou Hamer to SNC and to this work, it convinced her that she would be willing herself to stand up and try to register a vote risking her life. She was savagely beaten on one occasion in prison after being in prison. She lost her home, so she had. I think what Bob was getting at there is she had literally been born into sharecropping.

[00:26:53] She and her husband were sharecroppers. They lived on a plantation with their children, and when she went down to register to vote, they lost their house. They had to move, they had to find another place to live. So she had just experienced so much that she could authentically talk about what it meant for her as a sharecropper in a way that an advocate or an organizer would only be able to say secondhand.

[00:27:26] And so this idea that Ms. Baker passed on to Bob and others, that really, that leadership is in the local people. It’s real. Right. And she’s, as you said, she’s the iconic representation of this. So the other insight I think that the Council of Federated organizations with the help of folks like Mrs. Hamer provided was this idea of creating independent parallel structures like the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party.

[00:27:58] Because at the time, Bob used to say to us, well, journalists would come down to the south and they would say, well, Bob, isn’t it that the reason that black folks are not voting is because they’re apathetic? Well, once they demonstrated that people were willing to go down and register to vote by the hundreds through the Mississippi Freedom, democratics, parties Freedom vote, they did a, a mock voting process in the fall of 63.

[00:28:30] You couldn’t say that black folks were apathetic. You could say that they really actually were ready to demand their right to vote, but they weren’t given access. To their right to vote. So I think Mrs. Hamer then being kind of the representative of this level of authenticity that emerges from opportunities where the local people actually are supported to find their voice and express the problem in their own way.

[00:28:59] That was so powerful that President Johnson had to call, decided he had to call the press conference just to take her off the air while she was testifying to the Democratic National Convention Credentials Committee. So fortunately as, as you said, her testimony was recorded and folks should take a look at that.

[00:29:20] But in any issue that’s facing the nation, you know, Bob would say the same principle. Should apply. How do we create opportunities where the local people we, the people if you will, that’s referred to in the preamble of the US Constitution, really have a role to play and a responsibility to participate in our society and contribute their voices to help improve it for all of us.

[00:29:50] Yes. Thank you.

[00:29:52] Albert Cheng: Ben, thanks so much for telling us about Bob Moses’ involvement and, and really approach during the civil rights era. And so I wanna wrap up with maybe that chapter of his life and get into the algebra project. But before we get into the algebra project, I think there’s a pivotal moment. In 1966, the Vietnam, Vietnam War was going on and Bob was drafted even though he was five years too old for the age cutoff.

[00:30:15] And this prompted him to move to Canada and then to Tanzania where he and his wife and young family lived from 1969 to 76. And there he worked as a math teacher for the Ministry of Education. I know you know this, but I know our listeners might not know this, but could you expand on that and, and just tell us about Bob’s time in Africa and really how this shaped really the next career as math educator?

[00:30:38] Benjamin Moynihan: Yes. So thank you Albert for that question. In some ways, Dr. Janet Moses and some of the Moses children would be best to answer this question, but I’ll take a crack at it because Bob Gid from time to time talk about their experiences in Tanzania. And I’ve also heard Janet talk about it. And actually their son, OMA Wally Moses, or Omo Moses earlier this year put out a book called The White Peril, a family memoir.

[00:31:08] It’s on Beacon Press, and in it he talks about being born. He and two of his siblings were born in Tanzania, and he talks about those experiences, those formative experiences that they had as a family. They lived in a rural area and there was a lot that did happen, as you said, I think for us as members of the algebra projects, one of the most powerful stories that Bob used to share with us about his time in Tanzania is that.

[00:31:42] As a teacher of mathematics working for the Ministry of Education there. So this is Tanzania in the late sixties, early seventies. They’re coming into their independence and they’re trying to essentially rebuild their country, rebuild a society. And Bob used to say, Albert, that this was the first time that he saw an education system where they wanted to ensure that every single student succeeded.

[00:32:13] They literally could not lose any students because they needed them to help rebuild the country. So he, when he talked about the algebra project, he would say, imagine if in this country we saw every child in that way. The job of the adults in the mix is to figure out how to ensure that we do not lose a single child in this process.

[00:32:38] How do we ensure. How do we change, not how do the young people change, but how do we reach them? How do we motivate them? How do we get their attention such that all children are supported? And I, I love that story just because it’s so amazing and it’s unfortunately so rare to think of a whole national educational system whose goal was to ensure that every child came out with the proficiencies and literacies that they needed to contribute to the nation.

[00:33:09] Albert Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. Well thanks for sharing that. I mean, that’s, you know, wise and really profound to think through, so I appreciate you sharing that. So let’s get into just how Bob tried to pull this off, shall we say? And Bill, I wanna, you know, bring you in. Yes. You know, so the algebra project, so it’s a national US mathematics literacy program.

[00:33:27] It’s aimed at helping low income students and students of color achieve the math skills in high school that really are a prerequisite for any college preparatory math coursework. Tell us about the mission of the Algebra project, and in particular, how was it an extension of Bob Moses’ previous civil rights work,

[00:33:47] William Crombie: when most people think about mathematics and algebra in particular, they don’t see a direct connection right to civil rights.

[00:33:59] For Bob, it was immediate and direct, and one way in which he used to explain it was that really during the civil rights struggle, they faced and accomplished two out of three challenges. And by that he meant they were able to end Jim Crow’s segregation in the South. They were able to establish voting rights for everyone, and as been mentioned in the process, open up the Democratic party.

[00:34:35] But Bob was very definite on the third challenge, which was not accomplished, and that was what he called sharecropper education. And Bob’s definition of sharecropper education was really an arrangement where some communities were denied access to levels of literacy, which then acted as a prerequisite, the greater access and participation in the larger society.

[00:35:11] So obviously, sharecropper education took one form. In the Mississippi Theater. Mm-hmm. But what Bob recognized is that, particularly in the late 20th century, clearly reading and writing literacies were necessary for full participation. But it was no longer the case that mathematical literacy, or what some people call quantitative literacy, was something that could be ignored in the last half of the 20th century, it became clear that students and adults needed more than what at the time might have been called post office math.

[00:35:56] Right. The kind of arithmetic that you need, you know, to operate at the post office. Yeah. Right, right. And, you know, get, get your mail off in the information age. In the computer age, the engagement of technology, and especially now, right? Yeah. The beginning of the 21st century where practically all of our devices are smart.

[00:36:21] There is a level of mathematics literacy, which is needed again, for full participation, not just economic participation, but really the issues as citizens, which we are faced with really at root, require a greater degree of mathematics literacy. And at least in the algebra project, you know, we have a very basic definition of mathematics literacy, which is built upon a foundation of language arts literacy.

[00:36:57] Huh. And the way we see this is really the ability to read, to write. To reason with the principle symbol systems of mathematics, and the principle symbol system of mathematics is algebra, right? I mean, if you go into any stem or technical field, the materials, the science, the technology, the engineering is written in the language of algebra.

[00:37:30] Right. Well, yeah, so let me leave it at that. That’s the basic rationale for the algebra project.

[00:37:37] Albert Cheng: Yeah, well, appreciate you saying that. I mean, I, I’m a, I’m a former high school math teacher. I was a math major myself, so I hear you. Well, let’s dig into the issue a bit more. You know, in some sense, Bob Moses, in recognizing the, just kinda the gateway status, really, the algebra one is, you know, you kinda anticipated what’s the findings and recommendations of the 2008 US National Mathematics Advisory Panel report, which emphasized the need as you’ve been explaining of proficiency in algebra one, you know, in order to, to just go on any further in mathematics.

[00:38:11] Why is it that, I guess, based on your observation, and, and Ben, you’re welcome to chime in on this too, why is it that American education continues to struggle with teaching students, you know, basic math and, and making them literate in the sense.

[00:38:25] William Crombie: Well, let me start out by saying, I started working with the Algebra project a few years before Ben, 1990, and when I started working with the project here was the landscape in eighth grade, very similar to the literacy exams that people struggled over in the Mississippi Theater.

[00:38:50] There was a literacy exam that students took at the end of eighth grade. It was a math literacy exam, and it really determined if students performed well enough on that exam, whether upon going into high school, they would go into Algebra one or go into a series of courses that were based upon arithmetic.

[00:39:15] So in the early nineties, you know, in a sense, access to algebra, which again, Bob really saw as a critical literacy, had a meritocratic basis to it. Right? In this test, you had to perform well enough to be admitted to that domain. The perspective that Bob took as a literacy necessary for full citizenship really assumed the position that we have to ensure that just as all students passing through the educational system are guaranteed foundational language, arts, literacy, students passing through the educational system, particularly in the middle school to high school transition, need to start.

[00:40:13] Ninth grade at nothing less than algebra. Now I think it’s been 30 years since it, at least I joined the algebra project and over the decade of the nineties, there has been that transition from viewing algebra as a privilege for a few to its present position as a basic literacy, which all students should acquire.

[00:40:46] The issue, and this is an issue that the Algebra project has been working on for the past 40 years, is how we teach algebra in a way which makes it accessible to all students. How we. Assess the mathematics that we teach so that we can actually ensure that all students are successful. And to tell you the truth, how we examine, I guess I’d say the content of the algebra to ensure that it begins in a place that all students have access to and ends successfully with the more, I don’t know what you would call it, the abstract, rigorous formulations, which are necessary.

[00:41:37] Mm-hmm. If students are to go on in mathematics. The algebra project has really worked on what we call a five step curricular process, which interestingly enough is a blend of both Bob’s work in the philosophy of mathematics. And his work in the Mississippi Theater around community organizing and basically, and I, I will describe this rather quickly so we can move on, but basically the five step curriculum process, it’s meant to give both teachers and students a way of reading the mathematics in a meaningful way beyond simply the manipulation of symbols.

[00:42:25] Hmm. So it starts with a concrete experience, which is accessible to all students. Students come with an intrinsic strength, which is namely their language. There’s a logic embedded in their language. And through this curricular process, the students will make models or representations of a targeted event.

[00:42:51] They will talk about it in their own language, which we call with people talk. They will discuss what they believe to be the critical features of that event. And finally, from those critical features, symbolize those critical features and their relations with symbols that they create. And the trick is if students can get those symbols to do the same conceptual work that the conventional symbols of.

[00:43:26] Mathematics do the conventional symbols of algebra. They have a way to move back and forth between these symbols, which are the most meaningful to them, and the conventional symbols of mathematics. That five step curricular process takes the lesson from Ella Baker around discourse and how the people with the problem need to be at the center of the solution.

[00:43:56] That is the people talk there, but it also goes back to Bob’s study of the philosophy of mathematics. He had studied with a philosopher, WV Quinine, and quinine was a mathematical logician, and it was his perspective that. Basically mathematics, set theory, algebra arose from what he called the regimentation or structuring of ordinary discourse, that it wasn’t magic, it didn’t fall from disguise, it came from the talk of people and how they decided to effectively structure their discourse and symbolize it in order to accomplish certain conceptual tasks.

[00:44:47] Hmm. So it’s really the algebra project in a very fundamental sense, is the coming together of Bob’s work as a community organizer, but also his explorations and studies in mathematics, and most importantly in the philosophy of mathematics. Hmm.

[00:45:10] Albert Cheng: That’s a fascinating description. I mean, even as you’re explaining, I could see the echoes of the approach that Bob has taken even during the civil rights era and how he’s thinking about the algebra projects.

[00:45:21] Speaking of the unique approach, and you know, maybe we need you, you guys back on another show that really unpack that five step process here. But you, you guys, right on your website, the algebra project engages in national work by operating in an organizing mode that Bob Moses passed on to us always looking to build local and national collaborations that together can get a larger job done.

[00:45:44] It is of critical importance that we cultivate community buy-in as a precondition for designing successful interventions. You know, you’ve talked about how Bob thinks about math curriculum and the teaching and learning of mathematics and you know how he’s influenced by, you know, his approach to his civil rights work.

[00:46:03] I wanna ask a related question. Could you discuss the relationship between local buy-in mm-hmm. And delivering results for underserved American school children in math? How does that all play out in, in how you guys do your work?

[00:46:16] Benjamin Moynihan: Albert, on that, as Bill said, the purpose of the algebra project is to help schools and communities achieve levels of math literacy appropriate for the economic and civic life in the 21st century.

[00:46:30] And I think what Bob recognized early on that we really need to look systemically about at how we’re supporting the teaching and learning of mathematics for students and teachers, and that there are three critical transitions that need to be navigated. So the first is moving from elementary school and into middle school, as Bill said, making this transition from arithmetic thinking to algebraic thinking.

[00:47:02] Making the transition then from middle school into high school and the college preparatory math sequence, whether or not a student wants to actually go into college or go straight into a career, we believe that all students should exit high school ready for college or career mathematics without need for remediation.

[00:47:26] That they’re actually math iterate. They’re actually in a position where math is not an obstacle, and we are working on a new project around how to navigate that transition from high school into college or career. This is the accessible calculus project that Bill and colleagues are leading. We can talk a little bit more about this, but in each case, our efforts to design interventions, whether that’s a combination of the pedagogical approaches or.

[00:47:55] How to teach the curricular interventions, what to teach, and even collaborating with other colleagues and entities around how to assess what’s being taught and learned, required the collaboration and buy-ins of the students themselves, of the teachers of the school and district, administrators of local researchers, mathematicians, mathematics educators, education evaluation researchers and so forth, as well as members of local church, groups of local business.

[00:48:31] You know, can people see this notion of guaranteeing math literacy for all young people as a common good, just like the right to vote is? Hmm. And you know, Bob used to also say, you know, we’re a small organization based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. If we’re collaborating with a school district. In New Jersey or in Mississippi or in California, or El Dorado, Illinois.

[00:49:01] Appalachian White Mining town.

[00:49:03] Albert Cheng: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:03] Benjamin Moynihan: How do we ensure that there are local people there? So between our visits, there’s local people that really own the algebra project, so we’re not trying to solely be a service provider with products and approaches to the teaching and learning of mathematics. We’re really trying to help be a good guest and a helpful ally as they build on their strengths that they already have and really maximize opportunities for developing local leaderships.

[00:49:39] Albert, I’ll just add, bill, you often talk about, you know, bill has been leading teacher professional development at different levels, elementary, middle, high school for more than 30 years. He’s done direct service with teachers. He’s worked on, you know, what people sometimes call training of trainers, you know, supporting professional development specialists or math coaches who then support teachers.

[00:50:03] And at all these levels. Bill, I’ve heard you say one of the most important things that we can do is create a context, context in which those teachers and those coaches can work better more effectively with each other, and that we’re essentially trying to work ourselves out of a job. Yeah. So the way that, you know, and, and I think we’ve had successes in that regard, Albert, you know, for example, in the early years of the algebra project, Bob really started focusing on middle grades, and we were able to, in some cases, double the number of students that were able to transition.

[00:50:38] Out of early algebra or algebra in the eighth grade and enter a college preparatory math sequence in high school. And we do have evaluation reports about that as we moved into the two thousands. And Bob and Bill also began working more closely with high schools. In addition to middle schools, we had what we called a high school math cohorts program, which started with students who had been previously performing in the lowest quartile.

[00:51:06] They had performed in the lowest quartile in state standardized exams in mathematics in eighth grade. Those were the students we wanted to work with and be able to demonstrate that it is possible for them to accelerate their learning such that they can pass whatever state exam in mathematics is required for high school graduation on time.

[00:51:26] And we’re able to demonstrate this in five different sites around the country. We are really now working on the next hurdle, which is how do we ensure Bob’s ultimate goal was ensuring that students have a soft landing in college career around their math literacy. So Bill’s accessible calculus project is really trying to move the needle on that issue by bringing in college students from the National Society of Black Engineers who assist in algebra two classrooms in high school.

[00:52:01] So there are teachers that are still working, obviously running their classrooms, they’re being assisted by college students who are also receiving professional learning and creating kind of a near peer environment in which the high school students, maybe they see more of themselves in the college students who are only a couple years older than them, but they still need their teacher as well.

[00:52:22] Yeah. How do we create an intergenerational learning environment? Bob used to talk about the math class. As it’s a meeting space, just like in the movement, how do you create a, a voter education meeting space where everybody is engaged? Bill likes to talk about, well, we’re all, we’re all crew, no passengers, so,

[00:52:43] Albert Cheng: yeah.

[00:52:44] Yeah.

[00:52:44] Benjamin Moynihan: So I don’t know, bill, if you wanna elaborate a little bit on some of the preconditions and the opportunities that we’re trying to cultivate.

[00:52:53] William Crombie: Yes. And actually I would like to renegotiate the focus of that last question in this sense. Ben mentioned the cohort program, and that was really focused on a proof of concept, namely that if we look at what we teach, how we teach, and how we assess the learning that students performing in the lowest quartile on state exams in the eighth grade.

[00:53:27] By certainly the end, either of, what would you call it, their freshman or sophomore year, they could pass that state exam in Algebra one and graduate on time in four years. And we have, you know, evaluation reports on that. The answer is yes, that can be done. But here’s the real issue. I think every couple of years the national assessment of education, what’s called na mm-hmm is published and the latest NAP report.

[00:54:05] Now Nate does testing, statistical testing around the country in science, history, reading and writing and math. And basically the latest A reports have said that the results in math are essentially what we saw pre COVID 2019. And the important statistic there is that less than one quarter of graduating 12th graders are found to be proficient.

[00:54:39] Nate means something very specific by proficient. That is a student who is proficient, is in a position to go on to post-secondary mathematics successfully, and less than one quarter of our graduating seniors are prepared that the universe of that is that it’s not just the lowest quartile, the lower three quartiles of graduating seniors are not prepared to go on to successfully engage post-secondary mathematics.

[00:55:21] That is an issue whether you are urban. Suburban or rural. It is an issue that faces all of us as Americans, and in the Algebra project, as we’ve been saying for the entire hour, we believe that the people with the problem need to be central to the solution. And in this case, the people with the problem are the American people.

[00:55:53] That what we need is, some of us are old enough to remember in the eighties, reading is fundamental. It was a national math literacy campaign around the need to ensure that students were proficient in that basic literacy skill of reading. And what the Algebra project really at this point is concerned with is that the nation needs a national to engage a national discussion, a regional discussion, and local discussions around what is a math literacy crisis when practically three four of the graduating seniors across this country are not proficient, not prepared to go on for post-secondary mathematics in an age where STEM computers and information sciences are central to the health and strength of this nation.

[00:57:02] Albert Cheng: We ought to just end the show right there with you on that note. You know, I mean, bill, I, I couldn’t agree more as someone that’s vested in math education as well. But I do want to squeeze in one last question here as we look ahead, tackle some of these issues that you’re raising. You know, sometimes it helps to look to the past a little bit to help us make a way forward.

[00:57:20] And I’d like you both to just take a moment to reflect on Bob Moses’ legacy. He’s a quiet and often unsung civil rights leader, but what should we remember most about him and really the algebra project’s legacy under his leadership as we move ahead to tackle some of these prevailing issues. I think because of

[00:57:41] William Crombie: Bob, I’ll be quick that at least in this country, we will never think of the dreaded word from high school algebra in the same way again.

[00:57:56] Because Bob really has managed, not just theoretically, but day to day in his work to tie algebra to the literacy needs of all of us in the 21st century. In this information age, algebra will never mean the same thing again. Ben.

[00:58:20] Benjamin Moynihan: Yes, that’s great. Bill and Bob certainly knew how to be quiet. Albert and Alisha, he was very patient, man.

[00:58:31] And while he, to a certain extent is relative to his impact, I think you’re right, arguably un unsung, he would often, in some of his writings and his speeches list, this is, and this may be an African diasporic tradition that he interpreted. But he would often cite the names of people that he collaborated with in Mississippi, or the names of folks that he worked with that, you know, he wanted to be able to tell stories about where stuff actually happened, who all was involved.

[00:59:09] He saw himself connected to larger networks of people, and he wanted young people and older people to come to that same sense that each of us has something important to add, that the whole really is greater than the sum of its parts. There’s another part of your question though, Albert and Alisha, I have to say, that made me laugh a little bit, and Bill and I were, were talking, you know, Bob could be extremely loquacious and implacable, okay.

[00:59:41] When he wanted to be. Bob was, uh, you might call him a flexitarian. I mean, he never, he knew what he wanted to be quiet and, and when he was trying to create a space where other people could really find their voices, and he was masterful in that way and really attended to the thoughts of young people in particular.

[01:00:03] But everybody, I remember when I first started working with the algebra project was around. Developing an African drums and ratios curriculum. Yes, I did just say African diasporic drumming of ratios. Yep. Okay. In late elementary school, because Bob really saw, well, there are artists who pop in and outta schools, but how do we tie this rich cultural tradition, this rich artistic tradition through this core curricular subjects of mathematics?

[01:00:32] And we actually developed some lessons and tried that out in various places around the country and engaged students in many cases who otherwise wouldn’t have been engaged, you know? And Bob helped create a space within the Osworth project where what is now called the Young People’s Project was able to emerge.

[01:00:51] So I think what we take away from Bob’s legacy, in addition to Bill’s central point that we now think of. Access to mathematics literacy in addition to reading and writing literacy as a civil right or hopefully in the future, he hoped that it would become a constitutional right. ’cause currently in the US there is no US federal Constitutional right to K 12 education.

[01:01:18] But again, he wanted to demonstrate through the lived experiences of students of teachers that this is possible. And he would say, well, if we can do it, then we as a nation should do it. If there’s one way to do it, if we’re able to demonstrate there’s one way to do it, then there must be a multitude of ways of doing it.

[01:01:40] So Bill’s point about, well, can we at least have a conversation and try to grapple with this issue collectively, uh, with something that Bob was so passionate about and left so many people around the nation with to carry forward? I’ve

[01:01:55] Albert Cheng: been talking with Ben Moynihan and Bill Crombie. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for taking your time to share about the life and legacy of Bob Moses and the Algebra Project.

[01:02:03] We’re really grateful. Thanks, Albert. Thanks Alisha. Appreciate you. Thank you. You guys

[01:02:08] Alisha Searcy: take care. Keep up the great work.

[01:02:14] I letting shine. Letting shine, letting shine.

[01:02:21] Alisha Searcy: Well, Albert, just as I thought, what a great interview. So important to learn about the work of the Algebra project. And I’ll tell you, I wasn’t as familiar before learning a little bit more and kind of preparing for this, but hearing from these two guys and the incredible work that they’re doing and, and really honoring the work of their founder has just, it’s been incredible.

[01:02:41] What a great, great interview.

[01:02:42] Albert Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. And I hope the legacy continues and you know, as we start off in the show saying that the families and, and their, their school children are, are well served by these efforts.

[01:02:51] Alisha Searcy: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I love the connection to civil rights and how he felt like this was a continuation of that work.

[01:02:58] So, mm-hmm. Kudos to them. Well, before we go, it’s time for us to get our tweet of the week. It comes from Education Week. The US Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights issued a statement declaring that a New York state policy prohibiting the use of Native American school mascots, violates civil rights laws and ordered the state to rescind it or face the possibility of losing federal education funds.

[01:03:27] Now, I am not going to go into the political conversation here, although I would love to. I am just going to say, is this the best way that we could be using federal resources? When a state has decided this is how they want to honor and include every person and make sure that they don’t have policies that are offensive, why is the federal government getting involved and then threatening to take federal funds?

[01:03:59] Albert Cheng: Yeah, good question. And I hope in a few years we’re all gonna look back and see all of these happenings these days and learn from ’em. And hopefully we can better understand our, our system of government and, I don’t know, gain some wisdom maybe to, yeah, make the world run a little bit better. But yes, maybe better appreciate it.

[01:04:18] I like that. Very well said. Yeah. Well thanks. I mean, you know these tough, controversial things and you know, we’re all walking through ’em together and not. Saying one way or the other. But yeah, that’s part of the challenge of living together and I’m optimistic that we can figure it out together and yes, and you know, come together.

[01:04:36] Alisha Searcy: As am Very well said. I appreciate that. Well, I’m looking forward to being with you again. Next week we’ll have Amanda McCullen, the president and CEO of the New Bedford Whaling Museum joining us. So make sure you join us next week. Dr. Cheng, as always, great to be with you. Hey, great to be with you, Alisha.

[01:04:55] Everybody have a great week. Hey, this is Alisha. Thank you for listening to the Learning Curve. If you’d like to support the podcast further, we invite you to donate at pioneerinstitute.org/donations.